Topic: Taping outdoors with omnis, stack taping or FOB?

[daspyknows]

Even if you have your mics in a hat I would recommend wind screens as well.  Wind can ruin a recording faster then some chatty person in the crowd.

Rarely do I use screens with mk4s in my had.  stealthier without and unless the wind coming from in front it needs to be very windy.  This differs by mics and placement.  I usually have them above my ears.

[pillowman]

ups, I like to jump on this topic with my own question ...
I have to do some big summer festivals this year and I always like to went
front of speackers - so what cap do I have to use
this is what I already have ::
AT853sc  ??  ATU853c  ??  ATU853sc  ??  AT943o  ??  a pair of DPA4061

I realy like the sc but I never used them outside so any hint is welcome.
p.

[adrianf74]

Any reason you ruled out cards from the get go?

Some people, myself included, generally roll with omnis.   If I had some Schoeps or something similar that was well over $1.5k, I'd be more inclined to run those.   However, I've generally found the results from omnis is better outdoors than cards.   Point in hand was last year when I ran CA-14's open on a stand right at the soundboard area at a festival along with my friends AKG480/CK61's.  The CA-14's sounded better (and that was from a good 200 feet from the stage).   I also ran the CA-14 omnis on the Sunday (open) from the same spot and switched to the cards for Jon Anderson's set.  Suffice to say: one of the BIGGEST MISTAKES I'VE EVER MADE.  Figuring I'd fight off the wooks and super fans, I got hit with lots of wind (storm was rolling in) even though I had dead rats on the mics.   The omnis (used before and after) didn't suffer the same fate.

Regardless of this, I almost prefer the sound of good omnis to cards most of the time; but that's just me.

[adrianf74]

ups, I like to jump on this topic with my own question ...
I have to do some big summer festivals this year and I always like to went
front of speackers - so what cap do I have to use
this is what I already have ::
AT853sc  ??  ATU853c  ??  ATU853sc  ??  AT943o  ??  a pair of DPA4061

I realy like the sc but I never used them outside so any hint is welcome.
p.

See my post I just posted about AKG 480's with CK61 caps and you'll know that I'ma bigger fan of omnis.  You've got the 4061's so make sure you use windscreens if there is any wind around.   If you can run dead rats on top of the windscreens, even better.   If you're up close, and in line with the speakers (or even if you're not), the omnis are likely the better choice save for the chatty cathys.

[bryonsos]

Some people, myself included, generally roll with omnis. [snip] Regardless of this, I almost prefer the sound of good omnis to cards most of the time; but that's just me.

You are not alone.   

[newplanet7]

Any reason you ruled out cards from the get go?

Some people, myself included, generally roll with omnis.   If I had some Schoeps or something similar that was well over $1.5k, I'd be more inclined to run those.   However, I've generally found the results from omnis is better outdoors than cards.   Point in hand was last year when I ran CA-14's open on a stand right at the soundboard area at a festival along with my friends AKG480/CK61's.  The CA-14's sounded better (and that was from a good 200 feet from the stage).   I also ran the CA-14 omnis on the Sunday (open) from the same spot and switched to the cards for Jon Anderson's set.  Suffice to say: one of the BIGGEST MISTAKES I'VE EVER MADE.  Figuring I'd fight off the wooks and super fans, I got hit with lots of wind (storm was rolling in) even though I had dead rats on the mics.   The omnis (used before and after) didn't suffer the same fate.

Regardless of this, I almost prefer the sound of good omnis to cards most of the time; but that's just me.

I can understand if you AREN'T stack taping and you are in optimal places be it stealth or open but
what does it matter for a stack tape? Omnis would fair the same I would reckon.
From the stack tapes I have heard There would be next to no stereo info if you are hugging a stack.

[stevetoney]

Just a thought, but for stack tapes, couldn't you get creative in post to simulate stereo if you wanted?  If you apply EQ to the left channel to simulate the instruments on the left side of the stage... say if guitars were left raise those in the left channel.  If bass was right, raise the bass in the right channel using EQ.  I haven't done this though...would phase cancellation be an issue?

[Belexes]

I like to be close to stacks with omni's. But if outdoors and under an amphitheater roof, I will opt for cards because of the undesirable sound characteristics the roof introduces.

The problem with being up close at a loud rock show is you get the crazy wildass fans that can disturb your recording, even though it can be deafening loud where you are.
Omni's can attract asshats.

[bluntforcetrauma]

So go with FOB stack taping, you then get both.  Stick the omni's thru the breathing holes in a baseball cap, dont have to worry about orientation of mic as they are omni. Black on Back, Hat and mic. get close to stack as you can. This will lessen the " feeling" and feel of the recording from far away. If you record from away; mics " pic" up the distance thus causing a distant sounding recording.   Also being close you can set levels low and allow the Band's sound aid in setting the levels. So if you are close and stacked, levels can be low because you only need so much to get a recording and when the levels are set low then the less you will  pick up  close crowd noise. The distance from sound source and levels are directly related.  closer to sound source lower your levels, thus less you pick up the crowd close to you. So more loud music is captured in relationship to the crowd around you when you are close to sound source and levels are set enough to capture the music while allowing some head room recording in 48khz. so you can add more " db" in post if you need to make music fuller and louder.
All in all its really what sound "you"really like.

[adrianf74]

@bryonsos: I'm glad to hear it. 

@newplanet7: It's the characteristics that each mic introduces.   I find that omnis add a touch of "artificialness" that I just don't like (even when stack taping).   I've recorded some shows with cards at an arena in the first five rows and they sound decent but thinking back to it, I would've run the omnis (if I'd had them).

@tonedeaf: You could "fake the stereo" imagery by either introducing a slight delay but you can introduce phase issues if you have no clue as to what you're doing.  I only "fake stereo" when I'm using a mono soundboard in a matrix with stereo mics. 

@Belexes: Indeed, outdoors in an amphitheatre, if I'm in the pit/floor/100's/whatever, I'll consider omnis, however, if I'm forced to sit in the second section or further, cards are the only way to go.   I've run cards from about 10-15 rows from the stage in the 100's and the result was good but I think the omnis would have been the better route based on my experiences.

@bluntforcetrauma: Exactly.  Proximity plays a good part (in fact, I've run omnis at a stage lip with an artist right in front of me (4061's) and he didn't even see the mics).   That recording, suprisingly, wasn't half bad.  My buddy had brought the 480's and had planned to set up by the soundboard area but the sound in the bar/club just "dropped off" about 20 feet in front of the board so he packed up his gear.  The other part is preference.   I don't like cards outdoors unless, as @Belexes pointed out, there's a roof/covering to deal with.

[F.O.Bean]

I record FOB at 99pct of shows. Mainly running hypers/Dina and get killer results. I also use cards there as well. I just got a busman stereo mic and I can't wait to run ms/blumlein/from the sweet spot

[newplanet7]

Look at a ton of FOB tapes and most are made with CARDS.

[adrianf74]

Look at a ton of FOB tapes and most are made with CARDS.

I'm not discounting this, however, it _ALL DEPENDS_ as to what the best mic to use is and where to be located.  As I've stated previously, my buddy ran AKG 480's at an outdoor festival (no tent -- just PURE OPEN SKY) last summer and my CA-14 omnis _SMOKED_ the 480's with 61 caps.   There was another instance where the sound dropped off where we were and his 480's smoked my CA-14 omnis _AND_ cards.   That said, if the OP has seats that are closer up to the stacks, then the omnis might be the better solution but there is no "one size fits all" in this game: IT ALL DEPENDS.

[newplanet7]

Look at a ton of FOB tapes and most are made with CARDS.

I'm not discounting this, however, it _ALL DEPENDS_ as to what the best mic to use is and where to be located.  As I've stated previously, my buddy ran AKG 480's at an outdoor festival (no tent -- just PURE OPEN SKY) last summer and my CA-14 omnis _SMOKED_ the 480's with 61 caps.   There was another instance where the sound dropped off where we were and his 480's smoked my CA-14 omnis _AND_ cards.   That said, if the OP has seats that are closer up to the stacks, then the omnis might be the better solution but there is no "one size fits all" in this game: IT ALL DEPENDS.

This is exactly what I am and have been saying, but everyone is so quick to rule out cards.
Hence my below comment earlier.

Any reason you ruled out cards from the get go?

[earmonger]

I don't have Schoeps or DPA, just CA-14. And with all the pro-cardioid sentiment here, from people much more experienced than I am,  I have been trying to experiment and understand how cardioids can do the job.

I understand that cards focus on the sound from the stage/stacks and rule out the ambient distractions.

But...omni is for me. First, as all have said,  cards are much more susceptible to wind noise.

But beyond that, the folks in front are just as likely to be chatting as the folks in back.

And ears are omni.

Most of all I get this odd, holodeck feeling from card playback in headphones, like there is nothing--I mean nothingness, the void--behind me.  It's just a weird, unnatural sensation. Not like the concert I was at.

I like omnis. I have regretted them when I am stuck next to chatterboxes, but not that often. And yes, FOB is the sweet spot unless the place is really eccentric.