Topic: Hi-MD dreams come true

[twoheadedboy]

With the new release of SonicStage 3.4, you can now take recordings done via digital input and copy to .wav on your PC!

Check out http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?showtopic=14137

Sony basically put everything into this version they should have in the first place. I'm not sure why, all I know is that this is a very good thing!

[twoheadedboy]

Wow, I thought more people would care about this...

[M]

I still don't think it's that good.  They are just finially removing some bad ideas that shouldn't have ever been inplemented.  I don't tape digi in (yet) so that doesn't affect me.  I think most of the people that use digi in have better recorders.

I like the idea of their lossless compression but I will only be impressed when I can record straight to that format.  I'm still waiting for the ability to upload all my aging md recordings.  WTF is taking so long.  They could also produce these 2gig discs that we've all been hearing about. 

[George]

When they start producing 2gb and 4gb discs then I'd be interested more in a Hi-MD recorder.

[gl0bber]

"It's a Sony."

 

[Brian Skalinder]

When they start producing 2gb and 4gb discs then I'd be interested more in a Hi-MD recorder.

And 8GB discs.  And supports 24-bit.

[George]

When they start producing 2gb and 4gb discs then I'd be interested more in a Hi-MD recorder.

And 8GB discs.  And supports 24-bit.

Yep.  Sony, as usual, has crippled themselves long enough to make it impossible to catch up. 

[tms]

Wow, I thought more people would care about this...

Maybe b/c it's on the same level as a JB3 (16 bit, 44.1 recorder, does it do 48?) only with a limited memory and higher cost.

It was also mentioned that it resamples the dig-in?

It could be a better choice for someone that wants to run analog in though.  My experience has been that the JB3 adds noise when powered by external power and recording is analog-in. 

What kind of battery does the Hi-MD use? That might be another strong pro, the JB3 battery is a weakness IMO.

And removable media may be considered a pro by some including me.  Unlimited size (just buy more) and I like not having to manage data files on my pc.

I don't know, it's smaller and requires less overhead, I might have to get one.

I wish someone would do an A/D comparison with the JB3.

[gl0bber]

Wow, I thought more people would care about this...

Maybe b/c it's on the same level as a JB3 (16 bit, 44.1 recorder, does it do 48?) only with a limited memory and higher cost.

It was also mentioned that it resamples the dig-in?

It could be a better choice for someone that wants to run analog in though.  My experience has been that the JB3 adds noise when powered by external power and recording is analog-in. 

What kind of battery does the Hi-MD use? That might be another strong pro, the JB3 battery is a weakness IMO.

And removable media may be considered a pro by some including me.  Unlimited size (just buy more) and I like not having to manage data files on my pc.

I don't know, it's smaller and requires less overhead, I might have to get one.

I wish someone would do an A/D comparison with the JB3.

The 2nd gen HiMD recorders (and probably 1st gen) have AK 5356VN-L 20-bit converters, not 16-bit.  I would presume that they dither to 16 when recording PCM.  ATRAC 3+ keeps the 20 bits.  I have both the RH-910 ($160, got a new one for $100, don't ask  ) and the MZ-RH10 ($230).  Both upload almost as fast as my MT and have quieter analog inputs to boot.

As for resampling with digi-in, I will never be able to claim that I can hear the difference, and my hearing is excellent.  Also, I have never experienced a crash or had my recordings mangled like with my MT (fw 1.2.3).

In my opinion, both the construction quality and the ergonomics are noticeably better than those of my MT.  The internal (replaceable) batteries last a bit longer as well, in my experience.

All for around $200 folks.  I can't really complain...

For further information, here's the spec sheet (PDF)

http://www.asahi-kasei.co.jp/akm/en/product/ak5356/ek5356.pdf

[tms]

Wow, I thought more people would care about this...

Maybe b/c it's on the same level as a JB3 (16 bit, 44.1 recorder, does it do 48?) only with a limited memory and higher cost.

It was also mentioned that it resamples the dig-in?

It could be a better choice for someone that wants to run analog in though.  My experience has been that the JB3 adds noise when powered by external power and recording is analog-in. 

What kind of battery does the Hi-MD use? That might be another strong pro, the JB3 battery is a weakness IMO.

And removable media may be considered a pro by some including me.  Unlimited size (just buy more) and I like not having to manage data files on my pc.

I don't know, it's smaller and requires less overhead, I might have to get one.

I wish someone would do an A/D comparison with the JB3.

The 2nd gen HiMD recorders (and probably 1st gen) have AK 5356VN-L 20-bit converters, not 16-bit.  I would presume that they dither to 16 when recording PCM.  ATRAC 3+ keeps the 20 bits.  I have both the RH-910 ($160, got a new one for $100, don't ask  ) and the MZ-RH10 ($230).  Both upload almost as fast as my MT and have quieter analog inputs to boot.

As for resampling with digi-in, I will never be able to claim that I can hear the difference, and my hearing is excellent.  Also, I have never experienced a crash or had my recordings mangled like with my MT (fw 1.2.3).

In my opinion, both the construction quality and the ergonomics are noticeably better than those of my MT.  The internal (replaceable) batteries last a bit longer as well, in my experience.

All for around $200 folks.  I can't really complain...

For further information, here's the spec sheet (PDF)

http://www.asahi-kasei.co.jp/akm/en/product/ak5356/ek5356.pdf

What's the best Hi-MD for taping?  Is one easier to use than the other?  Remote control available for either?

[gl0bber]

The RH10 and RH910 are mechanically/electrically identical, except for the following:

• The RH10 has a bright OLED display that is easy to read in the dark, but not so easy in sunlight.  The RH910 has a non-backlit LCD display where the reverse is true.
• The RH10 comes with a simple non-display remote in NA whereas the RH910 does not.  I believe you can get a better remote for both from Minidisco.
• The RH10 has an aluminum lid - the RH910 comes with a plastic one.
• You get a 1400mAh user replaceable NiMH gumstick (prismatic) battery with the RH10, 900mAh with the RH910.

Both recorders come with an external AA sidecar battery case for long run times.  With the internal battery alone, I've been very fortunate - able to fill a 1GB HiMD disc with 7+ hrs of ATRAC3+ material, line in, on a single charge.

I keep my HiMD recorders in Tamrac 5688 nylon cases since they are very scratch prone.

I believe I got a good bang for the buck.

Hopefully this will help in your decision making.  Let me know if you need more info.

[tms]

The RH10 and RH910 are mechanically/electrically identical, except for the following:

• The RH10 has a bright OLED display that is easy to read in the dark, but not so easy in sunlight.  The RH910 has a non-backlit LCD display where the reverse is true.
• The RH10 comes with a simple non-display remote in NA whereas the RH910 does not.  I believe you can get a better remote for both from Minidisco.
• The RH10 has an aluminum lid - the RH910 comes with a plastic one.
• You get a 1400mAh user replaceable NiMH gumstick (prismatic) battery with the RH10, 900mAh with the RH910.

Both recorders come with an external AA sidecar battery case for long run times.  With the internal battery alone, I've been very fortunate - able to fill a 1GB HiMD disc with 7+ hrs of ATRAC3+ material, line in, on a single charge.

I keep my HiMD recorders in Tamrac 5688 nylon cases since they are very scratch prone.

I believe I got a good bang for the buck.

Hopefully this will help in your decision making.  Let me know if you need more info.

Is the external AA sidecar a stock SONY item for these?  Or was it DIY?

[scoper]

I was ready to take the plunge for a HiMD last summer, and then I discovered this board and heard about the JB3, which Creative was selling new in the box at closeout prices (less than HiMD). For me, there are two things that cripple the MD as a useful taping rig:

1. Must go thru menus for manual levels EACH time you go to record - it doesn't even remember settings when doing a disc flip. Doing that in the dark (backlit display or not) would be very frustrating. My old MD (R50 and R55) can go directly into manual level mode.

2. 90 min maximum for PCM 44.1 - the disc flip is a major PITA. (how long does a HiMD take with a 90 min PCM file to write the TOC?)

The JB3 solves both issues, at the cost of size - no doubt the MD is stealthier (and, fwiw, has mic level inputs).

Right now, the holy grail for hobbyist tapers doesn't exist - it *could* have been the MT, if the bugs had been dealt with prior  to release, and it *might* be the new Edirol R09, which won't be out for at least two months.

Until then, we compromise...

[chong138]

I was ready to take the plunge for a HiMD last summer, and then I discovered this board and heard about the JB3, which Creative was selling new in the box at closeout prices (less than HiMD). For me, there are two things that cripple the MD as a useful taping rig:

1. Must go thru menus for manual levels EACH time you go to record - it doesn't even remember settings when doing a disc flip. Doing that in the dark (backlit display or not) would be very frustrating. My old MD (R50 and R55) can go directly into manual level mode.

2. 90 min maximum for PCM 44.1 - the disc flip is a major PITA. (how long does a HiMD take with a 90 min PCM file to write the TOC?)

The JB3 solves both issues, at the cost of size - no doubt the MD is stealthier (and, fwiw, has mic level inputs).

Right now, the holy grail for hobbyist tapers doesn't exist - it *could* have been the MT, if the bugs had been dealt with prior  to release, and it *might* be the new Edirol R09, which won't be out for at least two months.

Until then, we compromise...

Someone else said this on another thread but I was already thinking it so I'll repeat it.  How hard would it be for Sony to just make a Digital recorder just like an M-1 that uses a flash card or something?  I hate waiting and waiting for something good to come out...I wanna upgrade but I don't wanna get stuck with a decent recorder and have a great one come out a month later. 

[gl0bber]

Is the external AA sidecar a stock SONY item for these?  Or was it DIY?

Stock, included in-box.

[scoper]

Someone else said this on another thread but I was already thinking it so I'll repeat it.  How hard would it be for Sony to just make a Digital recorder just like an M-1 that uses a flash card or something?  I hate waiting and waiting for something good to come out...I wanna upgrade but I don't wanna get stuck with a decent recorder and have a great one come out a month later. 

Remember that the M1 (or D100) DAT decks were $800, while the jb3 (or MD) is one quarter of that. Either the MT or Edirol R09 come out to around 450 or so, including a decent sized flash card. So it's more bang for more bucks.

But you're right... our perfect device is M1 sized, with mic inputs and a really good A/D, digital in as an option, and solid state (either HD or CF). I can live without 24/96 capability, but that would be a nice upgrade. Add a remote for good measure, and price the whole thing under $500. Providing it works well upon release, our quest will be at an end.

[gl0bber]

I was ready to take the plunge for a HiMD last summer, and then I discovered this board and heard about the JB3, which Creative was selling new in the box at closeout prices (less than HiMD). For me, there are two things that cripple the MD as a useful taping rig:

1. Must go thru menus for manual levels EACH time you go to record - it doesn't even remember settings when doing a disc flip. Doing that in the dark (backlit display or not) would be very frustrating. My old MD (R50 and R55) can go directly into manual level mode.

2. 90 min maximum for PCM 44.1 - the disc flip is a major PITA. (how long does a HiMD take with a 90 min PCM file to write the TOC?)

The JB3 solves both issues, at the cost of size - no doubt the MD is stealthier (and, fwiw, has mic level inputs).

Right now, the holy grail for hobbyist tapers doesn't exist - it *could* have been the MT, if the bugs had been dealt with prior  to release, and it *might* be the new Edirol R09, which won't be out for at least two months.

Until then, we compromise...

I use my M1, MT, and RH10 in the dark all the time.  I find the M1 and RH10 much more ergonomic than the MT.  Among other issues we all complain about, the MT nav wheel bounce problem is simply awful (I tried this on several MTs, same firmware 1.2.3 problem).  The RH10 remembers the rec levels like the rest.  It does default to AGC, but can be quickly corrected, in the dark (10 seconds at most).  The TOC is written in 15 seconds for a full HiMD disc.  The MT doesn't even write one properly with the current firmware when filling a 1GB card, so hopefully that will get fixed soon.

I know I can plonk down my M1 or RH(9)10, hit record, walk away, and come back hours later with a solid take, every time.  The same probably goes for the JB3 (I unfortunately don't own one).  But I can't say the same about my MT, which is a real shame (on me) - $400 minus the media.

The media change delay is not a problem for my applications - the sets seldom last more than 1 hr between long breaks.

These are my personal thoughts, experiences, and opinions.  As always, YMMV.

[tms]

Is the external AA sidecar a stock SONY item for these?  Or was it DIY?

Stock, included in-box.

Cool, what's the record time with that? 

That's what I love about regular MD, 7 hours of record time on a single disposable AA battery, although I change at 5 hours just to be safe.

[gl0bber]

Is the external AA sidecar a stock SONY item for these?  Or was it DIY?

Stock, included in-box.

Cool, what's the record time with that? 

That's what I love about regular MD, 7 hours of record time on a single disposable AA battery, although I change at 5 hours just to be safe.

I use 2600mAh AA NiMH with 15hrs or so solid recording times.  Add the internal battery, 20hrs or more.

Yeah, I remember my trusty MZ-R50 from 1997.  I gave it to a friend a year ago.  It looks and runs like new.  Now that's quality!  However, it's hopelessly outclassed by the new HiMD recorders.  A HiMD deck would be a real blessing to the community. 

[Roving Sign]

The 2nd gen HiMD recorders (and probably 1st gen) have AK 5356VN-L 20-bit converters, not 16-bit.  I would presume that they dither to 16 when recording PCM.  ATRAC 3+ keeps the 20 bits.  I have both the RH-910 ($160, got a new one for $100, don't ask  ) and the MZ-RH10 ($230).  Both upload almost as fast as my MT and have quieter analog inputs to boot.

As for resampling with digi-in, I will never be able to claim that I can hear the difference, and my hearing is excellent.  Also, I have never experienced a crash or had my recordings mangled like with my MT (fw 1.2.3).

In my opinion, both the construction quality and the ergonomics are noticeably better than those of my MT.  The internal (replaceable) batteries last a bit longer as well, in my experience.

All for around $200 folks.  I can't really complain...

For further information, here's the spec sheet (PDF)

http://www.asahi-kasei.co.jp/akm/en/product/ak5356/ek5356.pdf

I think even the older mini disc had 20 bit converters...? or something like that - I think my old Home MD says 20 bit on it...?

[Ryan Sims]

Because I'm poor and just getting into the game, MD seems like a decent choice for me, especially since I might be able to snag a deck for free from a friend. 

Noticing that ATRAC3+ maintains 20 bit and PCM is dithered to 16, does that mean that the ATRAC3+ is good, regardless of the compression and loss incurred therein?  I know some of the earlier ATRAC was really bad, I caught a miserable tape that had a spectrum that looked nearly as bad as mp3.

[poorlyconditioned]

Because I'm poor and just getting into the game, MD seems like a decent choice for me, especially since I might be able to snag a deck for free from a friend. 

Noticing that ATRAC3+ maintains 20 bit and PCM is dithered to 16, does that mean that the ATRAC3+ is good, regardless of the compression and loss incurred therein?  I know some of the earlier ATRAC was really bad, I caught a miserable tape that had a spectrum that looked nearly as bad as mp3.

Some people will disagree, but I think any (modern) ATRAC is going to be fine.  SP (original MD) was 292kbps,  HiSP (HiMD, new machines) is 256kbps.  I think both are OK.  I would be looking at mics (and battery boxes) and mic placement first.  I think you're going to need pretty good gear to tell any difference.

  Richard

[gl0bber]

Because I'm poor and just getting into the game, MD seems like a decent choice for me, especially since I might be able to snag a deck for free from a friend. 

Noticing that ATRAC3+ maintains 20 bit and PCM is dithered to 16, does that mean that the ATRAC3+ is good, regardless of the compression and loss incurred therein?  I know some of the earlier ATRAC was really bad, I caught a miserable tape that had a spectrum that looked nearly as bad as mp3.

Some people will disagree, but I think any (modern) ATRAC is going to be fine.  SP (original MD) was 292kbps,  HiSP (HiMD, new machines) is 256kbps.  I think both are OK.  I would be looking at mics (and battery boxes) and mic placement first.  I think you're going to need pretty good gear to tell any difference.

  Richard

To my ears, ATRAC3+ 256kbps sounds much better than the old 292kbps ATRAC1 v4 on the MZ-R50.  It's also great that one can record non-stop over 7 hrs ATRAC3+ HiSP on one cheap 1GB disc.

But yes, it really does boil down to mics and their placement...

[tms]

Because I'm poor and just getting into the game, MD seems like a decent choice for me, especially since I might be able to snag a deck for free from a friend. 

Noticing that ATRAC3+ maintains 20 bit and PCM is dithered to 16, does that mean that the ATRAC3+ is good, regardless of the compression and loss incurred therein?  I know some of the earlier ATRAC was really bad, I caught a miserable tape that had a spectrum that looked nearly as bad as mp3.

I did a comparison of regular MD ATRAC vs. no compression at all here: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=52423.0
The files are still available for download if you want to listen to what the 292kbps compression sounds like.  There are clips of classical, bluegrass, and blues/rock to compare.

The key is to just listen to them, don't look at the frequency spectrum or you'll be able to tell which is which.  Let your ears decide if you can tell the difference.

To get these off MD and onto a PC for tracking and burning to CD I added an optical output to the only MD deck still available new, a Sony MDS-JE480.  Fun DIY project.

FWIW, I _think_ it's possible to add an Optical output to one of the new HiMD recorders but it's not really necessary now that the newest version of Sonic Stage supports full access to dig-in recordings.

[ford prefect]

But you're right... our perfect device is M1 sized, with mic inputs and a really good A/D, digital in as an option, and solid state (either HD or CF). I can live without 24/96 capability, but that would be a nice upgrade. Add a remote for good measure, and price the whole thing under $500. Providing it works well upon release, our quest will be at an end.

The PMD 660 is very close to this, although no 24bit and no digital ins.  It's close to M1 size, has XLR ins, and uses solid state.  It's usually priced under $500 too, and if you buy it from Oade you can get it modded for higher quality inputs when you are ready... 

http://www.oade.com/digital_recorders/hard_disc_recorders/PMD-660MODS.html

[gl0bber]

The PMD 660 is very close to this, although no 24bit and no digital ins.  It's close to M1 size, has XLR ins, and uses solid state.  It's usually priced under $500 too, and if you buy it from Oade you can get it modded for higher quality inputs when you are ready... 

http://www.oade.com/digital_recorders/hard_disc_recorders/PMD-660MODS.html

Neat!  But why pay so much money for noisy analog inputs and no digital in?  The HiMDs cost less than half as much, have quieter inputs, digi-in, are 1/4 the size, and the media (already archivable) can be had for 1/10th the price...  Somebody please 'splain it to me.   

[ford prefect]

The PMD 660 is very close to this, although no 24bit and no digital ins.  It's close to M1 size, has XLR ins, and uses solid state.  It's usually priced under $500 too, and if you buy it from Oade you can get it modded for higher quality inputs when you are ready... 

http://www.oade.com/digital_recorders/hard_disc_recorders/PMD-660MODS.html

Neat!  But why pay so much money for noisy analog inputs and no digital in?  The HiMDs cost less than half as much, have quieter inputs, digi-in, are 1/4 the size, and the media (already archivable) can be had for 1/10th the price...  Somebody please 'splain it to me.   

Phantom power, XLR inputs, solid state, can record for 2hrs +.    

"Noisy" is a relative term.  I wouldn't be so sure the Hi-MD's have "quieter" inputs than this thing - maybe "quiet enough for $150" or "quieter than the JB3". 

[chong138]

The PMD 660 is very close to this, although no 24bit and no digital ins.  It's close to M1 size, has XLR ins, and uses solid state.  It's usually priced under $500 too, and if you buy it from Oade you can get it modded for higher quality inputs when you are ready... 

http://www.oade.com/digital_recorders/hard_disc_recorders/PMD-660MODS.html

Neat!  But why pay so much money for noisy analog inputs and no digital in?  The HiMDs cost less than half as much, have quieter inputs, digi-in, are 1/4 the size, and the media (already archivable) can be had for 1/10th the price...  Somebody please 'splain it to me.   

Phantom power, XLR inputs, solid state, can record for 2hrs +.    

"Noisy" is a relative term.  I wouldn't be so sure the Hi-MD's have "quieter" inputs than this thing - maybe "quiet enough for $150" or "quieter than the JB3". 

ok I'm thinking of getting a MD....how does the noise of the inputs compare to an M-1? 

[Ryan Sims]

Because I'm poor and just getting into the game, MD seems like a decent choice for me, especially since I might be able to snag a deck for free from a friend. 

Noticing that ATRAC3+ maintains 20 bit and PCM is dithered to 16, does that mean that the ATRAC3+ is good, regardless of the compression and loss incurred therein?  I know some of the earlier ATRAC was really bad, I caught a miserable tape that had a spectrum that looked nearly as bad as mp3.

I did a comparison of regular MD ATRAC vs. no compression at all here: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=52423.0
The files are still available for download if you want to listen to what the 292kbps compression sounds like.  There are clips of classical, bluegrass, and blues/rock to compare.

The key is to just listen to them, don't look at the frequency spectrum or you'll be able to tell which is which.  Let your ears decide if you can tell the difference.

To get these off MD and onto a PC for tracking and burning to CD I added an optical output to the only MD deck still available new, a Sony MDS-JE480.  Fun DIY project.

FWIW, I _think_ it's possible to add an Optical output to one of the new HiMD recorders but it's not really necessary now that the newest version of Sonic Stage supports full access to dig-in recordings.

I'm checking that out now.  Thanks a lot for doing that.

[gl0bber]

ok I'm thinking of getting a MD....how does the noise of the inputs compare to an M-1? 

Since I use the M1, HiMD, and MT for recording ambient and quiet sources almost every day, here's my personal analog combined noise and sound quality comparison:

M1 > HiMD > MT

If it's just the noise performance you're interested in, ignoring any source/mic noise, my M1 has around 90dB S/N line-in, while HiMD is closer to 98dB S/N (nature recordists group have one measurement closer to 100dB), so

HiMD > M1 > MT

If it's just MD you're interested in, based on my experience with the MZ-R50, a great little deck for its time:

M1> MT >> MD

I found the ATRAC v4 compression on the R50 to be audible and the input circuits relatively noisy, so I can't recommend MD for modern applications.  No digital uploads are available either.  Happily, Sony apparently chose to use the same or similar analog input circuits in the SBM1, M1, and HiMD.  Sure we're not talking about a 722 here but for around $200 HiMD has no competition.

Sorry to use a cliche, but:  It all depends on your application, so let your own ears be the judge!  I spent a little extra money and bought my HiMD gear from Fry's Electronics brick'n mortar just to try out and return if the decks didn't perform.  I had one bad RH10 and one bad MT that I had to exchange.  You usually can tell in the first 24hrs...

[tms]

ok I'm thinking of getting a MD....how does the noise of the inputs compare to an M-1? 

Since I use the M1, HiMD, and MT for recording ambient and quiet sources almost every day, here's my personal analog combined noise and sound quality comparison:

M1 > HiMD > MT

If it's just the noise performance you're interested in, ignoring any source/mic noise, my M1 has around 90dB S/N line-in, while HiMD is closer to 98dB S/N (nature recordists group have one measurement closer to 100dB), so

HiMD > M1 > MT

If it's just MD you're interested in, based on my experience with the MZ-R50, a great little deck for its time:

M1> MT >> MD

I found the ATRAC v4 compression on the R50 to be audible and the input circuits relatively noisy, so I can't recommend MD for modern applications.  No digital uploads are available either.  Happily, Sony apparently chose to use the same or similar analog input circuits in the SBM1, M1, and HiMD.  Sure we're not talking about a 722 here but for around $200 HiMD has no competition.

Sorry to use a cliche, but:  It all depends on your application, so let your own ears be the judge!  I spent a little extra money and bought my HiMD gear from Fry's Electronics brick'n mortar just to try out and return if the decks didn't perform.  I had one bad RH10 and one bad MT that I had to exchange.  You usually can tell in the first 24hrs...

That R50 is a pretty old MD recorder, it came out in 1997.  I don't know how much the ATRAC compression changed over time, but the one I have is a MZ-S1 which came out in 2002, the manual says it uses ATRAC Type R compression.  No mic input though, just line-in and opt-in.  I wonder how Type R compares to the ATRAC v4? 

FWIW, the SONY MD deck still on the shelves (MDS-JE480) is up to Type S compression. 

Kind of a moot point now though, if someone's thinking of getting a MD they might as well get a HiMD. The discs are more money and there's no deck available but the uncompressed recording is key.