Topic: Split Omnis Vs. DINa Cards (or hypers) on stage

[china_rider]

Hey all... A bit later this week I'm going to have the opportunity to run my rig on stage for the first time.  The acts are going to be LaTanya Lockett, New Century Soul Live, and On the One.  I'm getting excited for this one... It's a lot of supporting players from a lot of great bands.

All are 4-8 member funk/soul groups and will have the drum kit set up in the middle wish sax, bass, horns, etc set up on either side.  I'm going to have pretty much full access and will be able to set up during sound check.

Any opinions on what the better setup might be?  I have the option of running 481, 483s center, or 482s split.  I'm sort of leaning to the 482s split as the centered setup would be directly in front of the drum kit.

I also have the option of taking a SBD feed and running my mics off stage but the sound in the venue really stinks so I figure I will run on stage.

Just thought I would get everyone’s .02,
Dana

[JasonSobel]

split omnis are great.  if you are not too concerned about chatter from the people in the front row, I'd go with split omnis.

I also like cards ORTF.  with the drum set centered, and the larger angle between the mics, the drums are naturally attenuated (slightly) by pick-up pattern of the cards (because the drums are not hitting the mics directly on-axis).

[morningdew]

Why not a matrix?  I just did my first and I ran cards XY @ 3’ high + the SBD in my inputs 3 & 4 on a UA-5.  Wow! Did it turn out nice.

The band was a six piece.  Two key boards, one far left, the other far right, two guitars, one left of center the other right of center.  One drummer, centered and behind the bass player who was centered and in front of the drums.

The only draw back for me was that everyone had their own individual amplifier and was run into the SBD except the drummer who was not mic’d.  So I had to take the bulk of my mix from my mics because if I went to heavy on the SBD I would start losing the drums.  The key was that I was able to monitor it with earbuds and just balanced so that it sounded nice and worked out good.

I’d love to try omni’s but I don’t think it would be to good in this situation because the crowd presses right up against stage lip and the cards help keep the chatter to a minimum.  With omni’s I would have picked up a lot more chatter.  I wouldn’t have been able to reduce the chatter by cranking up the SBD feed because then I would have to reduce the gain on the mics and I would start losing the drums.

If you don’t have long enough cables for this set-up I would try omni’s if the crowd isn’t going to be right at stage lip, screaming and yelling.  If there is going to be a loud crowd right up front, I would run cards either XY or ORTF.  I’m going to try ORTF next time.  For me XY (100 deg.) turned out perfect.  I think the angle is more of guess game though.  I went 100 degrees because the mics seemed to be aimed just about right between the two amp’d instruments they were pointed at.

[china_rider]

The way this venue is set up a board feed and running mics on stage all to the R-4 is not an option.  Too bad... with the R-4 I would record the mics and board to different files and mix in post so I would not have to worry so much about it during show.  I'm tempted to run the stage mics into the R-4 and bring the UA-5->iRiver for a board feed but don't really want to bring all the extra gear with me.  On top of the first time running on stage it will be the maiden show for the bus mod on my R-4.

This is a small college venue so there is the chance of a loud crowd at the stage lip, but I'm guessing the crowd will be sort of small that night.

[morningdew]

The R-4 is a two track recorder as well?

I knew it did 4 channels but I didn't realize it would record two seperate tracks at the same time.

[china_rider]

Yep... 2XStereo, 4xMono, or even 1X4Chan Stereo.  I love my R-4. 

[terrapinj]

any chance of running your mics through the house Snake? split 482s onstage + SBD would be titties! any chance of getting some extra bodies and running split omnis and cards onstage? how soon is the show? i've got an extra set of jw mod 460 bodies I may be able to send your way, coming from CA to AZ shouldn't take more than 2 days, probably be there in 1.

not really familiar with the artists but if there are a lot of vocals onstage AUD could be lacking somewhat in vocals.

[jibooer]

my main concern would be the vocals too! I vote for an on-stage centered ORTF w/ the cards, but your vocals are going to be lacking unless you have a sbd feed via the snake or aud. mics. Maybe you could matrix it in post? Another option would be to place omnis on either corner of the stage facing the crowd to get those missed frequencies as well as running the cards....

[F.O.Bean]

i run DIN or a tighter spacing w/ a 90 degree angle for lotus onstage, maybe like 90 degrees and a spacing of 3-4 inches rather than 7-8

also, the ONLY time i will run XY-ish is onstage, i like running a 2-3 inch spacing and a 120 degree or less angle for onstage stuff too, sounds good and has imaging

thats w/ 480's FWIW

ORTF onstage/stage-lip has a somewhat distant sound IMO if you arent setup RIGHT in front of the band, and even then things get distant

[china_rider]

any chance of running your mics through the house Snake? split 482s onstage + SBD would be titties! any chance of getting some extra bodies and running split omnis and cards onstage? how soon is the show? i've got an extra set of jw mod 460 bodies I may be able to send your way, coming from CA to AZ shouldn't take more than 2 days, probably be there in 1.

not really familiar with the artists but if there are a lot of vocals onstage AUD could be lacking somewhat in vocals.

Don't think there is too much chance of running through the snake, however, I'm calling the tour manager tonight to get all the soundcheck details worked out.  I figure no matter what I do up front I'll bring my iRiver and maybe my UA-5 to get a patch while I run the mics on stage.

No chance on getting another set of bodies here in Phoenix but man... That offer for the mod 460s is very tempting.  The show is Thursday.  I had almost jumped the gun on another pair of 480 bodies so I could do 4 mic mixes but decided to hold off cause I wanted to hear what the mod 460 bodies sounded like.  If you're OK with it I'll pay shipping both ways.  I'll PM you in a few.  Thanks and T+ for the great offer.

As for vocals I believe that the first act will have none, the second act will have a bit, and the third act will have alot.

Below is a link for the artists.  Several have been playing with Carlos Washington and the Giant People Ensemble.  John currently is the drummer for KDTU and has played with the Allman Brothers, Pharaoh Sanders, Lenny Kravitz, the Wailers, Roy Hargrove, Lou Rawls, John Fishman, and Ozomatli.  The sax player currently tours with Pink Floyd Experience and in the past has played with the Wailers, DJ Logic, Vernon Reid (Living Colour), Rob Wasserman (Ratdog), Robert Walters, and Garaj Mahal.

http://www.newcenturysoulrecords.com/

The nite will also be the first run of the newly Busman modded R-4. 

PM will be on the way soon with my phone... give me a call when you get a chance.

Dana

[china_rider]

my main concern would be the vocals too! I vote for an on-stage centered ORTF w/ the cards, but your vocals are going to be lacking unless you have a sbd feed via the snake or aud. mics. Maybe you could matrix it in post? Another option would be to place omnis on either corner of the stage facing the crowd to get those missed frequencies as well as running the cards....

Hmm... 482 pointing at the crowd... Never thought of that.  Below is a link to the polar response chart... when looking that sounds like it may be a good idea.

http://www.akg.com/mediadatabase/psfile/datei/50/ULS_Series4055c282bda80.pdf

[F.O.Bean]

id try to get a matrix going if youre only running onstage w/ vocals, otherwise, i would just run FOB or at the OTS, you will be much happier IMO

[china_rider]

id try to get a matrix going if youre only running onstage w/ vocals, otherwise, i would just run FOB or at the OTS, you will be much happier IMO

Vocals will be minimal except for the last act where there will be alot.  The main reason that I am trying to get stage + sbd on the iRiver is that there is really not a good place to record in this venue and the sound is not so good.  Plus the board is sort of off to the side of the venue so it would be sort of difficult to run mics in a decent position (which there arnt many of) and run a board feed into the same recorder.

T+ all around.

[F.O.Bean]

i gotcha, when we do the lotus matrix's at mr smalls, one person has to run the SBD and i do the stage-lip stuff, the way the venue is setup, a snake wouldnt even be an option

id do the stage-lip w/ your nicest setup and the iriver for the SBD since the SBD is the elast important source because of dynamics IMO

or you could just run the SBD if their mixes are half decent, lotus does a nice SBD but it just doesnt have the ambience im looking for, add a touch of the stage-lip and the recordings REALLY come alive

this si my best matrix to date if ya wanna check it out,a dn the second source is just the stage-lip for comparisons sake, w/ out a doubt, the matrix is superior

http://www.archive.org/details/lotus2006-02-17.matrix

http://www.archive.org/details/lotus2006-02-17.481

[china_rider]

Cool... I really like Lotus... Going to have to check that out tonight.