Topic: when you put a show into soundforge...

[kidrocklive]

do you normally "normalize" the audio or is that a no no basically?

[ilduclo]

I normailize to peaks at about 99%, that amps the entire show up to just under clipping. Don't normalize individual files from one show

other opinions?
Underline

[kidrocklive]

i'm probably just missing something really silly but here's what i'm doing and it doesn't seem to do anything lol.

I open the show in soundforge 8

highlight the entire show

click on processes and then normalize

normalize using peak level is selected

I set the slider thing at -0.08dB (99.08%)

then click ok and it 'normalizes it' except when it's done the show doesn't sound any louder nor does the thing that shows the peaks and stuff look any different.

any idea what I could be doing wrong?

[JasonSobel]

i'm probably just missing something really silly but here's what i'm doing and it doesn't seem to do anything lol.

I open the show in soundforge 8

highlight the entire show

click on processes and then normalize

normalize using peak level is selected

I set the slider thing at -0.08dB (99.08%)

then click ok and it 'normalizes it' except when it's done the show doesn't sound any louder nor does the thing that shows the peaks and stuff look any different.

any idea what I could be doing wrong?

what is your highest peak to begin with?  if you clippped, even just once, normalizing isn't going to change anything, because the highest peak in the file is already at 0dB.

[kidrocklive]

i'm probably just missing something really silly but here's what i'm doing and it doesn't seem to do anything lol.

I open the show in soundforge 8

highlight the entire show

click on processes and then normalize

normalize using peak level is selected

I set the slider thing at -0.08dB (99.08%)

then click ok and it 'normalizes it' except when it's done the show doesn't sound any louder nor does the thing that shows the peaks and stuff look any different.

any idea what I could be doing wrong?

what is your highest peak to begin with?  if you clippped, even just once, normalizing isn't going to change anything, because the highest peak in the file is already at 0dB.

there's no way to raise everything else up to 99% and then if something else reaches 99% while it's doing that it just stops raising just that part but continues with the other until it's all at 99% ?

I'm not sure what it is at atm, I can check a bit later i'm about to go to bed lol. I'm beyond tired right now.

[JasonSobel]

there's no way to raise everything else up to 99% and then if something else reaches 99% while it's doing that it just stops raising just that part but continues with the other until it's all at 99% ?

I'm not sure what it is at atm, I can check a bit later i'm about to go to bed lol. I'm beyond tired right now.

well, you can do that, but it's more than just normalization.  if you want to do something like that, you need to compress the recording a bit, and then raise levels.  but you should be careful, because you'll now be changing the dynamics of the recording.

[itook2much]

If you have a high peak but overall you're unhappy with the levels & feel they're too low, you can compress just the highest peak(s) & then normalize.  It's a compromise that'll allow you to bump up the levels and still retain most of the dynamic range.

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

i'm probably just missing something really silly but here's what i'm doing and it doesn't seem to do anything lol.

I open the show in soundforge 8

highlight the entire show

click on processes and then normalize

normalize using peak level is selected

I set the slider thing at -0.08dB (99.08%)

then click ok and it 'normalizes it' except when it's done the show doesn't sound any louder nor does the thing that shows the peaks and stuff look any different.

any idea what I could be doing wrong?

I use SF5.0, I'm guessing functionality is about the same.

I select the entire WAV file and scan for average RMS.  Once this is determined, I raise this to -16db, which is a good music listening level.  I also use dynamic compression for anything that would clip. 

Or, I select the entire WAV and scan for highest peak.  Once this is determined, I raise this to -0.05db. 

I pick whichever I think "sounds" better, but I always keep my untouched source WAV for future use. 

However, I try to make my recording levels correct at the show so I don't have to do any of this. 

Terry

[kidrocklive]

I was messing around with it earlier and somehow did it so it increased all the levels and just topped them all off at the peak without clipping it. I forget how the hell I did it because from what you all are saying that's impossible to do unless I lower teh high points of the recording so they're all about equal first.

What exactly do you all mean by the 'dynamics' of the show/recording ?

I scanned the levels and it says that the peak is 0.0dB and the average RMS is -96

[momule]

If you have a high peak but overall you're unhappy with the levels & feel they're too low, you can compress just the highest peak(s) & then normalize.  It's a compromise that'll allow you to bump up the levels and still retain most of the dynamic range.

thats the craziest thing I have ever seen posted here yet.

[kidrocklive]

If you have a high peak but overall you're unhappy with the levels & feel they're too low, you can compress just the highest peak(s) & then normalize.  It's a compromise that'll allow you to bump up the levels and still retain most of the dynamic range.

thats the craziest thing I have ever seen posted here yet.

why is that?

[momule]

I scanned the levels and it says that the peak is 0.0dB and the average RMS is -96

I would suggest next time rasing your levels alot from where you were at as thats VERY low.   
For instance the tracks Im working with right now has a peak level of 0 (because I used compression) and a RMS of -11.1
see below for what they will appear like

[momule]

thats the craziest thing I have ever seen posted here yet.

why is that?

That’s just uneducated mastering is what that is.
You don’t need to compress the track and then normalize it.  thats just nuts
Either learn how to use compression or don’t use it and just stick to normalizing. 

Again I make the suggestion.
Start at your local library and check out a few books on mastering or compression and so forth and if your really interested in learning more about it sign up for a class at your local community college.  They usually offer a class for a little of nothing.  If your gonna blow the change on a decent rig and Software IMO you should learn to use it properly. 

this is a couple you can prolly find at your local library and is very good
http://www.digido.com/portal/pmodule_id=11/pmdmode=fullscreen/pageadder_page_id=66/
http://books.google.com/books?id=VZw6z9a03ikC&printsec=frontcover&dq=audio+mastering+books

Not trying to be an ass or point the finger at anyone in general but half the stuff I read on the forum about mixing and mastering is far from accurate

[kidrocklive]

I scanned the levels and it says that the peak is 0.0dB and the average RMS is -96

I would suggest next time rasing your levels alot from where you were at as thats VERY low.   
For instance the tracks Im working with right now has a peak level of 0 (because I used compression) and a RMS of -11.1
see below for what they will appear like

I tend to try and have it so when i'm recording the MD shows it as recording at the middle most of the time allowing it for when it gets louder to go up to the top without clipping. Maybe there is something else I can do differently idk. When I use line in i'm normally using like 27 - 30 for that and mic in is normallya between 9 or 14 depending on where I am. Maybe i'm missing something that I could be doing it make it better when recording?

[momule]

I assume your stealthing ?

what all are ya running?

how about a sample track of what ya got for a master recording
you can use http://www.yousendit.com/

just send the link to yourself and then use that link to post to others

[kidrocklive]

I assume your stealthing ?

what all are ya running?

how about a sample track of what ya got for a master recording
you can use http://www.yousendit.com/

just send the link to yourself and then use that link to post to others

yes and no, most of the shows i've done where open than not. Here's a 1 min sample from a show I did openly but had it set up like a stealth job (so no stand or anything).

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=9909DEE81949F031

I have a Sharp MD (MT90) w/ CSB Mics but one of the mics doesn't work which explains why when you examine the audio in soundforge both left and right are exactly the same ( I copied the left onto the right ). I have been meaning to get them fixed but i'm always going to a show and am trying ot wait until I can get them fixed when i'm not seeing anything.

[Roving Sign]

If you have a high peak but overall you're unhappy with the levels & feel they're too low, you can compress just the highest peak(s) & then normalize.  It's a compromise that'll allow you to bump up the levels and still retain most of the dynamic range.

thats the craziest thing I have ever seen posted here yet.

You must have misunderstood, because it makes perfect sense to me...

Lets say I have a 30 minute recording...even levels, but in two spots the drummer hits the snare drum really hard causing a peak at 0db.

When I go to normalize - there isnt any room left to gain...the highest peak is already 0db...normalizing will do nothing.

But if I select just those two snare hits and reduce their volume a few db (via compression,limiting, or just volume control)...then I can use normalize more effectively.

make sense...crazy?

[Brian Skalinder]

make sense...crazy?

Makes sense to me, both the first time and the follow-up explanation.  I do this occasionally, too.

[itook2much]

make sense...crazy?

Makes sense to me, both the first time and the follow-up explanation.  I do this occasionally, too.

Thanks, guys, I was begining to wonder what else would fix that problem, & what I was doing "wrong".

The way I understood the problem, kidrocklive had a few peaks that were at almost 0dB, yet overall levels that he felt were unsatisfactorily low.

Normalizing doesn't help, as the peaks are almost 0dB, so levels overall are still low.
Compression alone (which it seems momule is suggesting) could bring those peaks down, but that would still end with a recording with overall low levels.

It seems to me that compressing those few aberrant peaks, & then normalizing the entire file would be the method to bring his recording to an overall level with which he'll be satisfied.

I don't see any other way other than this "uneducated mastering," but I'm always happy to learn.

[kidrocklive]

make sense...crazy?

Makes sense to me, both the first time and the follow-up explanation.  I do this occasionally, too.

The way I understood the problem, kidrocklive had a few peaks that were at almost 0dB, yet overall levels that he felt were unsatisfactorily low.

yep that's basically it. I just wanted the best/fastest way to increase the levels without clipping anything. At times I find that an artist will do a slower song and the volume is really low on those but then on rockish songs it's higher and he will talk louder/drummer will drum harder so that keeps me from pushing up the mic volume to prevent it from clipping or whatever you call it. I did eddie money as my first show and that came out ok, but it clipped every so often and was annoying. The shows i've done since don't clip at all really so i've just been trying to increase their volume without messing up the show or making it sound all weird so to speak.

[BayTaynt3d]

make sense...crazy?

Makes sense to me, both the first time and the follow-up explanation.  I do this occasionally, too.

Thanks, guys, I was begining to wonder what else would fix that problem, & what I was doing "wrong".

The way I understood the problem, kidrocklive had a few peaks that were at almost 0dB, yet overall levels that he felt were unsatisfactorily low.

Normalizing doesn't help, as the peaks are almost 0dB, so levels overall are still low.
Compression alone (which it seems momule is suggesting) could bring those peaks down, but that would still end with a recording with overall low levels.

It seems to me that compressing those few aberrant peaks, & then normalizing the entire file would be the method to bring his recording to an overall level with which he'll be satisfied.

I don't see any other way other than this "uneducated mastering," but I'm always happy to learn.

Or, instead of normalizing in a second step, you can apply make-up gain during the compression, but you need to do a little math to make sure you don't force a clip to occur...

[momule]

Or, instead of normalizing in a second step, you can apply make-up gain during the compression, but you need to do a little math to make sure you don't force a clip to occur...

This is more along the lines of what I am calling "Educated mastering".

I’m not saying compression is any better than normalizing nor gates and limiters. 

[kidrocklive]

Or, instead of normalizing in a second step, you can apply make-up gain during the compression, but you need to do a little math to make sure you don't force a clip to occur...

This is more along the lines of what I am calling "Educated mastering".

I’m not saying compression is any better than normalizing nor gates and limiters. 

how do you do that?

[Roving Sign]

In Audacity - it's a checkbox on the compressor effect dialog..."Normalize to 0db after compression"

If you are working in MoMules "educated" method - I guess you leave this checked and apply the effect to whole wave...? I'm not getting the distinction he is trying to make...

You probably want it unchecked if you are picking out small slices/beats...normalize last.

All depends on the sound you want to hear less off...percussion is a little easier to deal with becuase it's all fast, tight, spikes....limiting works good for this...but for longer, more musical passages...compression might be better.

[itook2much]

In Audacity - it's a checkbox on the compressor effect dialog..."Normalize to 0db after compression"

If you are working in MoMules "educated" method - I guess you leave this checked and apply the effect to whole wave...? I'm not getting the distinction he is trying to make...

In SoundForge, you can add gain after compression under Graphic Dynamics.  I don't see how doing it in 2 steps instead of the one is defined as "uneducated."  Besides, I was giving a general answer to the question, not detailed instructions...only to result in being called "uneducated" by someone who didn't bother to help with an answer to the poster's question.

thats the craziest thing I have ever seen posted here yet.

While I appreciate the honor, you must've missed out on quite a few fluffhead threads.

[momule]

In SoundForge, you can add gain after compression under Graphic Dynamics.  I don't see how doing it in 2 steps instead of the one is defined as "uneducated."  Besides, I was giving a general answer to the question, not detailed instructions...only to result in being called "uneducated" by someone who didn't bother to help with an answer to the poster's question.


While I appreciate the honor, you must've missed out on quite a few fluffhead threads.

I never said you were uneducated.  Don’t put words in my mouth dude.

I was trying to be nice by not dogging the recording.  But there isn’t a whole lot you’re going to do with a tape that low as the noise floor is as high as the recording is

 

[itook2much]

I never said you were uneducated.  Don’t put words in my mouth dude.

thats the craziest thing I have ever seen posted here yet.

That’s just uneducated mastering is what that is.
You don’t need to compress the track and then normalize it.  thats just nuts
Either learn how to use compression or don’t use it and just stick to normalizing.

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, just don't see how else you'd think that could be taken.

I was trying to be nice by not dogging the recording.  But there isn’t a whole lot you’re going to do with a tape that low as the noise floor is as high as the recording is

Agreed.  My answer was given without this info:

I scanned the levels and it says that the peak is 0.0dB and the average RMS is -96

If you set the levels well, compression will rarely be needed IMO. 
Should he still try to improve on this recording?  Sure.  Will it result in a great recording?  Highly doubtful, but it will give him practice editing & may yeild a result that at least he finds enjoyable to listen to & relive the show.

And isn't what this is all about? 

[kidrocklive]

by set levels do you mean the mic volume from the recorder when you are recording? That's all I know about really.

[kidrocklive]

here's a song I recorded last night (8-19) and I ended up having the same thing happening, although I didn't change anything either really. I always seem to have a problem with the vocals as I keep the mic volume lower so that when the guy/girl sings at a high pitch it doesn't top out. But when I do that as you can tell the backing music ends up suffering from being low. I upped the whole song so you could see what i'm talking about.

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=6A05B7237CB0E4C8

incase the above dies:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/lvw4ck

I read the manuel for my MD thing and it talks about before recording adjusting the level (mic volume) so that whatever you are recording is between -4dB and 0dB but the problem I have is when i'm recording it will go from like mid way up the dB bar thing up almost topping out and I dont want it top out so I keep it lower. Is there anyway to make it so the vocals and what not that's giving me this "problem" be less of an issue so I can make a recording that is louder overall without having to edit every show I record.

[Brian Skalinder]

KRL - from your latest description, it sounds to me like you're simply working in a challenging environment:  one with broad dynamic range (big difference between the quitest parts and the loudest parts), including a mix in which the vocals are noticeably louder than the rest of the music.  Given those challenges, there's really nothing you can do with your levels (or the rest of your recording gear) while recording to fix the problem^*.  Your goal with the levels during recording should be to have the loudest peak of the recording approach, but not hit, 0 dB.  You'll have to tackle the dynamics and/or bad mix in post. 

^*Well, there is one option, but it's not related to your gear directly:  try recording from different locations within the venue to see if the mix is better in one spot than another.  The mix should sound better in some locations vs. others, even if it's a crappy mix.  I'd start by trying to set up near the sound engineer because SEs are using their ears from their own location to determine the mix.  (A good SE will walk around the venue, of course.)  Then, wander around with that as your reference point, moving forward / back and left / right until you find a spot that sounds better than the others.  At some point, you'll likely find a spot that sounds markedly better than all the others, where it sounds like you're "in" the music, where it's more difficult to pinpoint the precise source:  rather than listening to music blasting at you from that specific stack over there, and the other one on the other side of the stage, it sounds like the music is floating all around you (this is difficult to explain!).  This is the "sweet spot".  (Finding this spot won't necessarily help a bad mix, but it will ensure you capture the best recording you can given the variables, and will give you a better recording with which to work in post-production if you want or need to edit.)

One of the challenges with the type of field recording we do is that we don't have the luxury of a soundcheck, so we have to do everything on the fly, including select our location (i.e. find the sweet spot).  So try different spots during a band about which you don't particularly care, or a different spot each time you're in the venue, to try to get a feel for what parts of the room sound better than others.  The unfortunately reality is that the "sweet spot" of the room will shift from night to night, even band to band in the same night.  But there are definitely areas of the room that will sound consistently better than others, and you'll find them, even if it may take some trial & error time.

[itook2much]

If there's that big a difference in the levels of the vocals & the rest of the band, you'll just have to set it for the vocals to not go over & try to work with it.

Definitely try out Brian's suggestion to try different spots in the venue, that can have a huge effect in many rooms.


And for those of you who've hit me with at least 5 -Ts in the last day, if momule & I can't have a civil disagreement on something without you getting up in arms about it, then that's a shame on a board where so much information is subjective (as always will be regarding what you hear, etc.).  More than one person agreed with me, yet those that didn't obviously have hit me with -Ts.  If that makes you feel better, go ahead.  I think momule has his opinion, & knows what he's doing, I just happen to disagree that it's the only "right" method.  And I didn't appreciate the veiled insult in reference to my suggestion.

[kidrocklive]

thx for the help brian and everybody else. Last night I was basically right in front of the right stack. I was under the understanding that if I was close to that you'd be less likely to hear a bunch of ppl talking and junk. I guess from now on I need to try moving around some after they start the show. I never did that so maybe that's my problem. The sound guy was off to the side and back a ways so I would think if I went back there the sound would be too distant and i'd pick up a lot more of the crowd chatter. I'll see what happens next show.

[momule]

If there's that big a difference in the levels of the vocals & the rest of the band, you'll just have to set it for the vocals to not go over & try to work with it.

Definitely try out Brian's suggestion to try different spots in the venue, that can have a huge effect in many rooms.


And for those of you who've hit me with at least 5 -Ts in the last day, if momule & I can't have a civil disagreement on something without you getting up in arms about it, then that's a shame on a board where so much information is subjective (as always will be regarding what you hear, etc.).  More than one person agreed with me, yet those that didn't obviously have hit me with -Ts.  If that makes you feel better, go ahead.  I think momule has his opinion, & knows what he's doing, I just happen to disagree that it's the only "right" method.  And I didn't appreciate the veiled insult in reference to my suggestion.

+ to get ya headed back in the right direction.  Opinions are like assholes -- everyone's got one, but nobody wants to see the other guy's.

[itook2much]

+ to get ya headed back in the right direction.  Opinions are like assholes -- everyone's got one, but nobody wants to see the other guy's.

+ back to ya.  That's a good one.  I've always heard that opinions are like assholes:  everybody's got one, most of 'em stink.