Topic: DIN + Omni's = ?

[smokydays]

What woud be the outcome running omni's in a DIN configuration?  Tried to search but got a phone book of results..  Thanks!

[WiFiJeff]

Not that I've ever tried this, but a semi-educated (and hence dangerous) guess is that you'd get stereo up in the high frequencies where omnis get directional, and where guys like me can't hear anyway, and over the mid and low range basically a mono recording with horrendous phase problems.
( I do record spaced omnis occasionally without baffles at less than the recommended spread, but have never tried under 1/2 meter spacing).


Jeff

[BayTaynt3d]

I don't think phase would be a problem, if it's not a problem for cards at DIN spacing, then it'd be even less of a problem for omnis wouldn't it? That said, the recording would sound very mono-ish without a doubt.

[John Willett]

What would be the outcome running omni's in a DIN configuration? 

The DIN standard is cardioids at 90° and 20cm spacing.

I use 20cm spaced omnis quite a lot, but not at 90°.

This method works very well for solo grand piano and I will be in the Yehudi Menuhin Hall next week for the second session of the project I am on now.

The first session was recorded with both Sennheiser MKH 20s and the new Neumann KM 183-D microphones (though the picture below does give a false impression of the actual microphone position).

[image]http://i84.imagethrust.com/t/864935/rmpianokmd.jpg[/image]

[boojum]

Try it.  One test is worth a thousand opinions.  B)

[smokydays]

Thank you for all the replies.  I think i will see what my ears say.   

[Shawn]

I did this show with omnis/DIN on-stage

http://www.archive.org/details/tls2006-02-16.adktl.flac16

[Swanny]

I've run them nos with good results. Never tried din though

[JiB97]

I did this show with omnis/DIN on-stage

http://www.archive.org/details/tls2006-02-16.adktl.flac16

+T for taping Lymbyc Systym!!  Great guys from out here in AZ.

[John Willett]

DIN with omnis is way too close together without some sort of baffling to isolate the mics, or, distance between mics, measured in feet/meters, which can be a touch tricky to get right, as opposed to baffling.

Not necessarily, it depends on what you are recording and how far away you are.

2-meters from a Grand Piano, 20cm spacing with omnis is about perfect.

[Brian]

DIN with omnis is way too close together without some sort of baffling to isolate the mics, or, distance between mics, measured in feet/meters, which can be a touch tricky to get right, as opposed to baffling.

Not necessarily, it depends on what you are recording and how far away you are.

2-meters from a Grand Piano, 20cm spacing with omnis is about perfect.

IYHO.  that seems like it would be way too monaural except in the extreme high frequencies.  however that could be perfection for your apps so it's all personal tastes.  i don't think omnis are a good choice for getting a stereophonic recording of a grand piano. i like cardioids ORTF, center positioned at middle C.

  upright pianos.....a little different story.

edit:  i say that about grand pianos because i like getting the direct sound of the hammers hitting the strings and not the reflections off of the wood cover. again...all personal taste. lots of engineers prefer the way the piano sounds reflected from the wood.  i just think it's harder to get a stereo image that because then you are dealing with less of a time arrival factor

[John Willett]

but at 2 meters depth, and 20cm spacing, I bet that piano sounds rather monaural as a single, solo instrument.

Not at all - it sound great.

Actually I used the microphones vertical, so they are truly omni.

It gives a piano sound with great depth and feeling - the results have been highly complimented on by the people who have heard the pre-release CDs.

And you don't want too much stereo on a single grand or it can appear too wide - just enough info. to give you depth.

[Brian]

And you don't want too much stereo on a single grand or it can appear too wide - just enough info. to give you depth.

i agree whole-heartedly. However i like to record a piano real wide because i mess with the panning later to get the desired image.  if i don't record it wide enough to start, i have to re-record which i don't like doing unless it's absolutely critical.  any stereo pair, if placed correctly in a room will give a sense of space no matter what type of polar pattern is used.  as i'm sure you know, stereo recordings are done to get a 3D image.

i like the idea of pointing omni's vertical if extreme high frequency response is not an issue.  if you are ina great sounding room, it can really help create the sense of space the music is being played in.  i've done that with small diaphragm and lav omnis before for ambient microphones in a multitrack recording.

BTW - can you post a sample of that piano recording.  i'm fascinated by all the different techniques of recording a piano.

[John Willett]

... that seems like it would be way too monaural except in the extreme high frequencies.  however that could be perfection for your apps so it's all personal tastes.  i don't think omnis are a good choice for getting a stereophonic recording of a grand piano. i like cardioids ORTF, center positioned at middle C.

This is classical music and 20cm omnis works perfectly.

I would never use cardioids for a grand piano as they loose the bottom end and make the piano sound thin.

I did a test for a recording I did a few years ago about a week before the session as I had to record in a difficult room and directional mics. were so thin compared to the omnis - and the directionals I used had a better bottom end than most other directionals.

An omni is ruler flat down to 20Hz (MKH 20s down to 12Hz), and a directional mic is rolling off at about 40Hz.  IE: an omni picks up an extra octave in the bass end.

However - please note that I am saying this from a Classical music angle.  Rock and pop are totally different, as you choose the microphones and positioning for the effect you want to achieve rather than trying to capture a natural performance.

You can see the microphones from my last session in the link I posted in my post near the top of this thread.

[Brian]

I would never use cardioids for a grand piano as they loose the bottom end and make the piano sound thin.

which is why i use schoeps mk4's for this app they have a nice response in hte low end for a piano IMHO

i hear you on the classical music angle.  most of my piano recordings were jazz so i need something to roll off the low end of the piano to give room to the upright bass for the mix.  for solo classical piano i can see how you would want the info from 20Hz-40Hz for a completely filled out sound. good discussion.  i'd love to hear some samples of your solo piano recordings using this technique)

[John Willett]

... i like to record a piano real wide because i mess with the panning later to get the desired image.  if i don't record it wide enough to start, i have to re-record which i don't like doing unless it's absolutely critical.  any stereo pair, if placed correctly in a room will give a sense of space no matter what type of polar pattern is used.  as i'm sure you know, stereo recordings are done to get a 3D image.

Yes - I don't mess with my recordings though - stereo pair at 24/96 and that's it.   

i like the idea of pointing omni's vertical if extreme high frequency response is not an issue.

I did it because they were diffuse field omnis with a treble lift and I wanted a flat response - so I tilted them until I got the flat response I wanted (see pic. - click on the pic. for an enlarged version).



I did a write-up of the session HERE.

BTW - can you post a sample of that piano recording.  i'm fascinated by all the different techniques of recording a piano.

Er - I don't put any of my recordings to MP3 as I find the sound so horrible I can't listen to it. But the CD will be released in a couple of months.

[Brian]

i didn't ask for an mp3.  a .flac or.wav sample would be fine though   thanks for the discussion.

[John Willett]

which is why i use schoeps mk4's for this app they have a nice response in hte low end for a piano IMHO

Schoeps cardioids tend to roll off a bit earlier than some others - a friend used a Schoeps omni and fig-8 together to get a cardioid response with a better bottom end.  He did discuss this with the designer but the response was the best compromise for the mic.

i hear you on the classical music angle.  most of my piano recordings were jazz so i need something to roll off the low end of the piano to give room to the upright bass for the mix.  for solo classical piano i can see how you would want the info from 20Hz-40Hz for a completely filled out sound. good discussion.

Jazz is great - and you certainly need a different technique for jazz piano, especially if it is with other instruments.

(i'd love to hear some samples of your solo piano recordings using this technique)

I don't put any of my recordings on MP3 - hate it!  But if you PM me with an address I may be able to post you a sampler CD. 

[John Willett]

i didn't ask for an mp3.  a .flac or.wav sample would be fine though   thanks for the discussion.

Hi Brian - bit of a ping-pong here.  Dump me a PM and I'l send you a CD.

[Brian]

very cool!  thanks!  i'll send you a pm soon.

[TNJazz]

Nice write up of the session, John!  Very interesting read.

[John Willett]

Nice write up of the session, John!  Very interesting read.

Thanks - I'm back there again on Monday for four days doing the next lot (Chopin mostly as that will be the first CD) and another session booked for July.

[Brian]

well, that was a giant loop taking us from omni monaural imaging, right back to omni's that are that close together creating a monaural image.

that's why i can't wait to hear the sampler CD.  i'm having a hard time believing there is any stereo imaging below 6K. But being the enthusiast i am, i want to hear it anyway.  no matter what, it's going to sound great.  i like the neumann sound on a piano...second to schoeps.

[WiFiJeff]

  i like the neumann sound on a piano...second to schoeps.

Try the Josephson C617s with Gefell large diameter caps (MK102.1) sometime.  I use Schoeps and DPA as well, but the Josephsons are amazing.

Jeff

[Brian]

  i like the neumann sound on a piano...second to schoeps.

Try the Josephson C617s with Gefell large diameter caps (MK102.1) sometime.  I use Schoeps and DPA as well, but the Josephsons are amazing.

Jeff

hmmmm. if i ever come across that microphone for a piano recording situation, i'll have to keep that in mind.  thanks for the recommendation.

mike - i hear you about having hte piano as part of an ensemble.  that's why, typically if the director knows what they're doing, the piano will be in the back or way off to the side unless the soloist is a pianist.

if i was recording solo classical piano, i think i would want a softer, more distant sound as well.

[Nick's Picks]

when using flanking omnis, i like the main stereo pair to be in a coincident fashion.  Preferably M/S.

[Nick's Picks]

I also wonder...
wouldn't just a 3 mic mix work pretty well?  one card directly on axis.  flanking omnis or subs.