Topic: Best External Mic for IRiver H140 - what's the Sony ECM-907 upgrade?

[kjillette]

Hi-
I'm new here and overwhelmed from reading so many posts! I have an Iriver H140 that I like a lot and a broken Sony ECM-DS907.
I have a few hundred bucks to spend on an upgrade to my recording setup, which I use for duo/quartet/bigband gigs. It needs to be fairly discreet and portable, and I need to be able to set it up, hit record and leave it while we play.
I could get a Zoom H4 and just use its internal mics,
or i could upgrade my external microphone.
I am inclined toward the latter, but completely lost as to what kind to upgrade to!
Can someone please recommend a single stereo microphone to me, or else explain the hows and whys of getting a pair of mics and a preamp (if that's necessary). Thankyouthankyouthankyouthankyou!

ps.These are the names that keep coming up:
-Church STC-11s
-Studio Projects C-4's
or
-Audio Technica AT822. 
- Audio Technica AT825. 
-SP-CMC4s with an SP-SPSB-10  battery box + roll off
-AD-20
-binaurals, placed where? i can't wear them on my ears when i sing!

[Javier Cinakowski]

Can someone please recommend a single stereo microphone to me, or else explain the hows and whys of getting a pair of mics and a preamp (if that's necessary).

Single points are convenient, but not ideal IMO.  A pair of small electret mics works very well with the iRiver H100-340.  2 small mics are just as unobtrusive and are more versatile.  The Sound Pros CMC4's and the CMC8's are very nice (Audio Technica 853/943).  They have interchangeable capsules with different directional characteristics.  The Microphone Madness HLSC is a similar microphone with no option of interchangeable capsules (Cardioid only).  These are built with Sennheiser MKE40 capsules and sound very good.  Another stereo pair from Microphone Madness is an omni directional made from MKE2 Sennhieser capsules.  These sound amazing.  Church Audio makes a similar offering of great quality that is priced very well.

A small preamp is often a good idea when recording quiet sources, the iRiver can be noisy in these situations.  A good preamp can also help in loud situations as they often provide a better power supply (phanton/9vPIP) to the microphones, resulting in higher sound pressure handling.  Sound Professionals makes some preamps that are nice for the microphones I described above.  The Church Audio 9100 preamp is my favorite in this product class.   

A good set of small electrets or a stereo mic will work great into an iRiver.  I think you will find any of the mics in this thread will sound better than your Sony.   A good preamp will only improve.

[kjillette]

thank you for posting this! i'll check prices on the mics you mentioned and see what i can swing.
is there any reason to switch to a Zoom H4 for a better sound?
k

[Will_S]

I found my iRiver sounded better than my Zoom H4 on line in recordings.  The only reason to consider the H4 would be if you wanted to run phantom powered mics, but of the mics you listed only the Studio Projects C4s and the AT825 would qualify and even the AT825 mic can run off an internal battery and be hooked up to the iRiver with a cheap adapter. 

Fred's suggestions are good but if you want something very simple to set up, the AT822 will likely prove satisfactory.  It needs to be fairly close to the sound source to shine, but it seems like you have the ability to always set it up nice and close.

[kjillette]

thanks! i'm going to stick with the H140 IRiver and just upgrade the mic/s.
i'm looking up all your suggestions and so far this is what i've found:

-AT822 (on ebay, $219)
-Sound Pros CMC4's (on site $199, cardioid, listed as C-MC4U - is this the one you mean, Fred?)
-Sound Pros CMC8's (on site $249) 
-Microphone Madness HLSC (on site $280, cardioid)
-Microphone Madness omni directional made from MKE2 Sennhieser capsules. (on site $250)
*do you know where i would look for these used, or for a lower price? i don't see most of them on ebay.
but-
 i can't tell which one you mean from Church Audio -"Church Audio makes a similar offering of great quality that is priced very well."
they, um, look rather similar to me:
http://stores.ebay.com/CHURCH-AUDIO_W0QQcolZ4QQdirZ1QQfsubZQ2d999QQftidZ2QQtZkm

[attheshow]

The best place to look for this stuff used in in the Marketplace section of this forum under "Yard Sale". The retail space usually has some good offers as well. You'll find the Church Audio stuff there.

[Javier Cinakowski]

Sound Pros CMC4's (on site $199, cardioid, listed as C-MC4U - is this the one you mean, Fred?)

Yes, the "U" just indicates that it is the newer version of the same mic.  They made some improvements...

[Belexes]

Tough to find the HLSC's used.  They are too damn good to give up. 

[kjillette]

Okay,
What about the Core Sound mics?
Here's what I've got on those:
-Core Sound Stealthy Cardioid microphone set w/battery box - $250
Core Sound Binaural microphone set w/battery box - $230 or $260 (with switchable filter)
-Core Sound Low Cost Binaural Microphones - $75

How do they rate against Church Audio, Sound Pros C-MC4s and C-MC8s, MM's HLSC and omni-directionals, and the AT822?
What order would you put these in for desirability?
-K

thanks! i'm going to stick with the H140 IRiver and just upgrade the mic/s.
i'm looking up all your suggestions and so far this is what i've found:

-AT822 (on ebay, $219)
-Sound Pros CMC4's (on site $199, cardioid, listed as C-MC4U - is this the one you mean, Fred?)
-Sound Pros CMC8's (on site $249) 
-Microphone Madness HLSC (on site $280, cardioid)
-Microphone Madness omni directional made from MKE2 Sennhieser capsules. (on site $250)
*do you know where i would look for these used, or for a lower price? i don't see most of them on ebay.
but-
 i can't tell which one you mean from Church Audio -"Church Audio makes a similar offering of great quality that is priced very well."
they, um, look rather similar to me:
http://stores.ebay.com/CHURCH-AUDIO_W0QQcolZ4QQdirZ1QQfsubZQ2d999QQftidZ2QQtZkm

[Belexes]

How do they rate against Church Audio, Sound Pros C-MC4s and C-MC8s, MM's HLSC and omni-directionals, and the AT822?
What order would you put these in for desirability?
-K

From experience, I like my AT853's over the 943's (SP-CMC-8).  The MM HLSC is comparable to the SP-CMC-4s, but I had a member send me samples of both and I liked the MM's a little more.  AT's are nice because of the interchangable capsules.

I used CoreSound binaurals when starting out DAT taping in 1995.  Good results, but I had 2 pair go bad on me and I thought they were bass heavy and certainly needed a BB with roll-off.

I have yet to try Chris Churches mics, but members all give them very high regards, especially considering price and performance.

[kjillette]

cool, this is really helpful; i appreciate it.
if anyone else feels like commenting on the above mentioned list of gear, please do!
k

[kjillette]

um - hang on a sec. do you mean that you use the Sound Pro CMC-8 mic bodies with the Audio Technica 853 capsules?
What about the capsules that come with the CMC-8? I'm confused by the mix and match thing so I'm not sure what you are recommending I get. Can you clarify a bit?

From experience, I like my AT853's over the 943's (SP-CMC-8).  The MM HLSC is comparable to the SP-CMC-4s, but I had a member send me samples of both and I liked the MM's a little more.  AT's are nice because of the interchangable capsules.

I used CoreSound binaurals when starting out DAT taping in 1995.  Good results, but I had 2 pair go bad on me and I thought they were bass heavy and certainly needed a BB with roll-off.

I have yet to try Chris Churches mics, but members all give them very high regards, especially considering price and performance.

[attheshow]

The SoundPro CMC-4U use Audio Technica u853 capsules (formerly AT853 capsules). The CMC-8 use AT-943 capsules.

[kjillette]

ah, gotcha  thanks!
seems like it's narrowed down to these most highly recommended:

-Church Audio - but which ones? hm...I emailed him 11/11
-Sound Pros CMC4U's (on site $199, cardioid, uses Audio Technica u853 capsules (formerly AT853 capsules).
-Microphone Madness omni directional made from MKE2 Sennhieser capsules. (on site $250)
-The Soundman OKMs -not on ebay, call UK for dealer pricing, binaural microphones

with these coming in second:

-AT822 (on ebay, $219)
-Sound Pros CMC8's (on site $249, on minidisco $220) uses AT-943 capsules.
-Microphone Madness HLSC (on site $280, cardioid)

Seem about right?

[attheshow]

I don't know much about the Church Cards, so I'll stick to the AT822, Sound Pros and the MM mics that I researched a couple months ago.

The AT-822 is different than all the other mics. It is a single point stereo mic, which runs off of battery power. Internally it's a pair of coincident cardioids. It is easy to set up, sounds great, doesn't require plug in power or a battery box. The downside is it is much larger and less versatile. You're stuck with the internal coincident (90 degree?) mic pattern. There is also a Nady mic (CM2S) that sounds virtually the same as the AT822 and costs a bit more than half as much.

The MM omnis and Soundman OKMs are omnidirectional. This means the mics pickup pattern is a full 360 degree sphere around the capsule. They will pick up lots of crowd noise, if present, and anything else that is around them. The do, however, generally have better sound than similarly priced cardiods. It's just that the sound includes everything.

The rest are cardiods, which are good at rejecting noise to the rear and far left and right of the capsule. CMC-8s are more expesive because they are smaller. CMC-4s sound better than CMC-8's to my ears, but are larger. I decided on the MM-HLSC-1s. They sounded just a tad clearer and more natural to me than the CMC-4s, and they are capable of handling extremely high SPLs (loud sound). If you drop me a PM with your email address I will try and send you some samples that I got from another member here, that helped me decide.

[kjillette]

oh okay, that was very helpful.
i should rule out omnis then, because i want to minimize crowd noise and some of these gigs already have too much.
one thing- i know i can put the At822 on a mic stand and point it at the band, but how do i place a pair of CMC-4s?
do i hang them on a mic stand, or lay them on a table? i imagine they might be difficult to aim the right way, but maybe that sounds really dumb.
-k

ps. i can't PM until i've posted more - can you email me instead?

[attheshow]

I bought a small "T-bar" which screws on to a regular mic stand and has two large clips for attaching standard mics. My MM-HLSC-1s have Shure rotating clips, so I just clip them on to the bigger clips. I will eventually (and you could too) build my own t-bar using a dowel or a wooden ruler or something like that, and run it through a standard shockmount.

I also had good results simply taping the mics (tape over the cords, not the caps) to a small gear bag, and placing it on a balcony rail. Check out some of the discussions on mic patterns to get ideas on how to arrange the mics for different conditions.

A table is probably not the best idea, as it is too low. You'll want a direct line from mic to sound source without anything solid in between. At most venues this means getting the mics 7 or more ft high.

I'll try sending you a PM, you should be able to respond. I think it only requires 5 posts.

[Belexes]

Sound Professionals make nice flex T-bars that attach to stands.  I have a 12" bar and have inserted my AT and MM mics into the windscreens with no issues.

[bugg100]

Now that you have some ideas about what mics may work for you, you should hit archive.org and search for those mics and listen for yourself.....

Joe

[Arni99]

if you go for the sp-cmc-8 or sp-cmc-4u don´t forget the low-sens-mod offered by soundprofessionals.
otherwise you´ll get distorted recordings taping very loud amplified shows.

[Javier Cinakowski]

Now that you have some ideas about what mics may work for you, you should hit archive.org and search for those mics and listen for yourself.....

Joe

best advice in this thread!

[calvinroots]

yes...that is the best advice.  With all things considered and all the listening to I did, I found the Church Audio looked like it would be the best for me...I just recently purchased Church's STC'11 card's with the omni caps as well and the 9100 preamp too.  Chris has been a pleasure to deal with and I personally would recommend him to friends of mine.

[kjillette]

thanks everybody! i'll do some listening and report back.
k

[kjillette]

Okay. I'm not sure how to find samples of different gear at archive.org. All my searches are coming up empty. What am I doing wrong?
Also, here are the specs I've found on the three mic sets I'm looking at. I'm doing my best to understand what's what, but I'd love to hear your two cents on how they stack up:

-Church Audio - there are three things available:
   1. CHURCH AUDIO STC-11 VERY SMALL CARDIOID RECORDING MICS ($110),
   2. CHURCH AUDIO CROKIE MOUNT STEREO RECORDING MICROPHONES ($130)   
   3. CHURCH AUDIO STC-9000 CARDIOD MICROPHONE SYSTEM ($230) - here are specs on this:
   1- Distortion of less then .02% @115DB @ 1K (when you use the built in mic pad)
   2- Frequency response 20 hz TO 20 khz
   3- An easy to use power switch when the mic is connected it turns on the power supply when its not the power supply   
            automatically shuts off.
   5-Switchable in – out high pass filter @12db per octave @100Hz
   6- 3.5 MM INPUT STEREO 
   7-Operates from a single 9 volt battery low power consumption 
   8-Low self noise microphones 27 dbA
   9- 1/8TH / 3.5mm stereo jack output connector for easy connection to portable mp3 recorders, computer sound cards, minidisc
            recorders and dat machines.
   10- Built in belt clip (OPTIONAL)
   11- High quality wind screenss
   12- The mics have 100% shielding to avoid inducted noise. 
   13- OUTPUT GAIN CONTROL
   14- THREE LEVELS OF GAIN SETTINGS +30 +10,  0db
-Sound Pros CMC4U's (on site $199, cardioid, uses Audio Technica u853 capsules (formerly AT853 capsules).
   (note to self: don´t forget the low-sens-mod offered by sound professionals)
   # Signal To Noise Ratio: 67 dB, 1 kHz at 1 Pa
   # Dynamic Range: 83dB without battery module, 98dB with battery module
   # Frequency Response: 30 - 20,000 Hz
   # Open Circuit Sensitivity: -40 dB (5.6 mV) re 1V at 1 Pa
   # Maximum Input Sound Level: 110 dB SPL, 1 kHz at 1% T.H.D. (125dB when powered by Sound Professionals battery module)
-Microphone Madness HLSC-1 (on site $250, cardioid)
   *  Frequency Response: 30 - 20,000 Hz.
       * Open Circuit Sensitivity: 8 mv/pa +/- 2.5db
       * Signal to noise ratio: 65 db
       * Maximum Input Sound Level: 138 db SPL without a battery module!
      * Comes with shure premium (360 degree rotational) holding clips and premium windscreens.
       * Requires a bias voltage of 1.5 to 12 volts D.C. (also known as plug-in- power) or one of our battery modules.

[attheshow]

Here are a couple of shows that I have recorded with MM-HLSC-1 mics. I'm essentially a novice, so there are better examples out there, but this is what you might expect to get for results early on:

MM-HLSC-1 without Battery Box > Mic In on MZ-RH1: (Perpetual Groove)
<http://www.archive.org/details/pgroove2007-10-17..ats.flac16>

MM-HLSC-1 with Battery Box (homemade) > Line In of MZ-RH1: (Blues Traveler)
<http://www.archive.org/details/bt2007-11-05.paradise.ats.flac16>

In both cases I used a dual mic tbar to space the mics ~17cm and spread them roughly 110 degrees. Perpetual Groove was taped 10-15 feet from the stage, Blues Traveler about 8.

[bugg100]

   3. CHURCH AUDIO STC-9000 CARDIOD MICROPHONE SYSTEM ($230) - here are specs on this:
   1- Distortion of less then .02% @115DB @ 1K (when you use the built in mic pad)
   2- Frequency response 20 hz TO 20 khz
   3- An easy to use power switch when the mic is connected it turns on the power supply when its not the power supply   
            automatically shuts off.
   5-Switchable in – out high pass filter @12db per octave @100Hz
   6- 3.5 MM INPUT STEREO 
   7-Operates from a single 9 volt battery low power consumption 
   8-Low self noise microphones 27 dbA
   9- 1/8TH / 3.5mm stereo jack output connector for easy connection to portable mp3 recorders, computer sound cards, minidisc
            recorders and dat machines.
   10- Built in belt clip (OPTIONAL)
   11- High quality wind screenss
   12- The mics have 100% shielding to avoid inducted noise. 
   13- OUTPUT GAIN CONTROL
   14- THREE LEVELS OF GAIN SETTINGS +30 +10,  0db

What you have posted above is different than any others posted, in that the above is a stereo mic set AND a preamp.  The pre listed is the ST-9000, a good deal if you tape either-

a little acoustic music (preamp gain portion),
a little LOUD (higher plugin bias power provided by the pre) music. Did I say LOUD?

In between those 2 extremes, you can do pretty well with the preamp section in the 140.

I have a 9100 pre and CA omnis with a 140 and 320 iRiver.  Recently, I gambled and came out good with an Ebay purchase of some DPA 4061 mics to use with the 9100.  A real step up for $255.  New the mics would run $700-900.  Go for the combo.... get a pre and mics for the price of the other mics, then later upgrade the mics.   
You will be happy with this as a start!

About the archive, navigate into the archive, search ONLY live music, and make good use of quotation marks and + or -.  All will be revealed.......

Joe