Topic: replacing a Sharp Minidisc for live music recording

[ryang]

I'm looking for a quality digital recorder to replace my ancient minidisc recorder (Sharp Mt77) for recording live music in conjunction with core-sound binaural microphones.  Before you assume that I'm just posting instead of researching let me mention that i've spent hours browsing options/specs and questioned several friends about their recorders.  Essentially, I want almost nothing to change other than the end format, and that's where I'm running into trouble.  Solid state would be a plus, but i'm not listing it because it's not why i'm moving away from my MD.

Need:
-small/pocket-sized
-hold feature (button lock for all controls)
-high quality .wav recording
-simple-but-not-automated level control
-1/8" stereo mic-in & line-in
-changeable memory / super-high-memory capacity (roughly 24 recording hrs away from computer)
-changeable power source that is both rechargable and gas-station accessible (roughly 24 recording hrs out)
-a 1/8" stereo line-out

Don't Need/Want:
-internal mics
-internal speakers
-non-removable battery
-non-removable memory (unless it's huge, as mentioned above)
-mp3/wma/etc
-lights/screen that need to be lit up while setting levels or recording (or ever, really)
-additional editing/effects/looping/sampling/overdub/etc features

You'll notice that lossy-vs-wav is literally the only thing in my list that doesn't describe my minidisc recorder.  I'm basically finding more specs/options/capabilities than I know what to do with.... i definitely don't need most of them, i'd specifically like NOT to have some of them, and i especially don't want to pay for any of them.... any advice would be appreciated.  I'm on a budget of $150-250ish US.

[hi and lo]

M10... /thread

[sunjan]

What he said.
M10 beats R-09HR for recording time, apart from that they are quite similar. I've read somewhere that the hold switch is better on R-09HR, but that's a pretty minor difference.
Don't know about screen light though. Someone else chime in?

-a 1/8" stereo line-out

Assuming you mean headphone out? Or you specifically need line level for some reason?

[ryang]

No, you're right.  Headphone out would be workable.  I'm reading further on both the models you mentioned right now.

If anybody could provide some additional details on the hold switch and screen light I'd appreciate it.  Screen light wouldn't be the end of the world (i'm recording by request / with permission / etc, i just prefer subtlety), but it'd be nice to know before i buy.  The hold switch is important to me... i know that on some models the hold switch locks a limited number of features.

Both of those models still have built-in mics and speaker, but maybe i'm worrying too much about avoiding those rather than just ignoring them.  I guess nobody makes a quality recorder without built-ins?  Just seems like one more thing to go wrong.

I really appreciate the responses.

[earmonger]

Hi, I'm earmonger and I'm a recovering Minidisc user....

The PCM-M10 really is your baby. It has a minidisc-like track button on the remote--along with Record, Stop and Pause. (But unlike MD, you do have to go through some post-recording clicks to actually divide at the track marks.)

A 16GB card plus 4GB built-in is 20 hours of .wav. Of course you could carry as many more microSDs as you want. (With lossy compression, you could record 320 kbps mp3 until the cows come home. )

AA batteries. (Try not to get them at gas stations, where more than once I have been gouged for dead ones.)

Ignore the built-in mics/speaker,  they don't move or stick out.  You can turn off all lights. The headphone out jack switches to line-out.

The hold switch does not lock the recording level, true,  but there is a guard over the knob, it's a stiff knob  and you'd have to work at it to move it accidentally. I haven't tried it in a tight jeans pocket, but even if you had it there, you could always put tape on it or something. I keep it on my belt in a camera pouch--I've never had any problem.

And in the pouch, if you haven't turned off the lights and leave the pouch slightly open, you can look down and see if the green light (optimum recording level) or red light (overload) is flashing, or not, near the top of the unit--(near the L and R alongside SONY).  (Any problem, you can reach in and turn the volume knob if necessary.)   Really, every concert I go to, people are looking at BlackBerrys, holding up cell phones, taking pix and video and generally lighting up LCDs. None of the lights on the PCM-M10 is  any brighter than that.

[ryang]

Well you guys have me just about sold on the PCM-M10, as well as this forum.

My minidisc served me well for over 10 years, but it'll be amazing to be off it. 

Thanks again for the detailed and reassuring response earmonger. 

[su6oxone]

Well you guys have me just about sold on the PCM-M10, as well as this forum.

My minidisc served me well for over 10 years, but it'll be amazing to be off it. 

Thanks again for the detailed and reassuring response earmonger.

I also used a Sharp MT77 a decade ago for my first taping experiences, and loved it.  Actually, I loved those Sharp MD recorders, I had a couple and miss them.  The M10 seems like a nice recorder but don't count out the R-09HR just yet, because one advantage it has over the M10 is that when you put it on hold the recording level can't be changed while on the M10 the volume/gain dial can be moved even when it's on hold.  Some people have said it's hard to move while some have said it's not that hard. 

The only real benefit I can see of the M10 over the R-09HR is that it has an apparently much better build quality and lasts a lot longer on batteries.  The R-09HR's build quality is acceptable to me though, and I don't see a huge benefit of batteries lasting 30 hours versus 9 hours.  In real taping situations, that 30 hours doesn't mean a whole lot unless you're at a festival with one set of AAs. 

Another benefit of the R-09HR for me is that the line in jack is on the side of the unit instead of on the top as in the M10, which is easier for stealthing if you have it hanging around your neck (which is what you can do with the R-09HR if you attach a lanyard to the attachment loop on the top) and use a right angle cable. 

I think you'll probably like both of the recorders but the R-09HR is definitely a solid recorder.  I used it for a ton of shows, stealth and open, and highly recommend it for both.

[earmonger]

Just FYI, the PCM-M10 has a place for a strap/lanyard on the bottom right corner, though it has to be a thin one. It would hang upside-down that way, with the mic plugged into the opposite end (the top hanging upside-down, hence on the bottom). That wouldn't be a pretty configuration, indeed.

Stealth-wise, I have gone to many a concert with the PCM-M10 in the camera pouch. On occasion I have taken it out, shown it to security guards, said "Just a point-and-shoot" and waltzed on in.  Just sayin'.

[guysonic]

The M10 is one of my very favorites for high quality, small size, and long running time.  In addition, this deck directly powers my own brand of DSM microphones; one of only two stock models with this ability.
Much more about this ability in the Retail Section at: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=83254.0;all

Below are tips for using Sony M10 recorder:
------------------
TIPS: (For highest quality recording purposes)
 
Use M10 ONLY set in 24 bit recording mode.  Sample rate is your choice, but suggest using 44.1K sample rate if wanting best CD compatible editing options.
 
Use M10 ONLY with MIC INPUT sensitivity switch set in "LOW" taping over this switch to not be moved.  "HIGH" setting is way too much 20 dB boosted first stage gain giving inferior audio quality.  Even with very low VU levels, LOW setting gives cleaner more defined 24bit depth audio best boosted in post edit, NOT by using deck in HIGH setting.
 
Allow for having best headroom dynamics with NOT pushing recording VU levels.   Wise to ONLY push REC levels of master recording to -12 dB PEAK VU (not average, but maximum peak reading) so recording has best chance of never clipping even if much louder unexpected sound is encountered.
 
Use M10 in full manual (not AUTO, Limiter) record level control mode setting, suggest also taping over this switch so it does not move. 
 
Wise tact is to always engage HOLD feature so touching buttons do not accidentally stop recording until you're ready to stop the session. 
 
Do all editing in 24 bit mode, adjusting loudness and other changes desired.  Then as last software edit step convert copy of file to 16 bit if later doing CD storing this copy of file for disc burning purposes.
 
See taperssection.com M10 comments/tech data GuySonic posted at: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=130924.0;all 
--------------------------

[ryang]

Thanks for the tips guysonic.  I'll be re-reading those once I get my recorder in my hands.

I also used a Sharp MT77 a decade ago for my first taping experiences, and loved it.  Actually, I loved those Sharp MD recorders, I had a couple and miss them.

Honestly, I loved the MT77... mine lived through complete immersion in my dogs water bowl in 2002, and I recorded with it again last night.  At this point it's missing several screws, the headphone jack no longer works (i have a MT180 that i use for playback), and it no longer recognizes the external AA adapter if you have a Ni-MH inside it..... but after 10 years, beer, water, mosh pits, and 3-4 shows a week on average I've gotta admit I'm still rather impressed.  I've also used other Sharp models and several Sony models a few times each, and I'll always maintain my soft spot for the MT77.  If i could make that unit record lossless to memory card I'd be in heaven, hehe.

Thanks for the additional viewpoint on the R-09HR.  I think i've decided at this point, but it's always good to hear another opinion. 

[yates7592]

Just beware the unholdable level dial on the M10, general concencus seems to be its pretty stiff, but I've seen several threads here where a recording has been ruined by accidentally moving it.
Record quality-wise there is little to choose between the M10 and the R09-HR, and the latter's levels can be locked off by the hold button. If 'hold everything' is your criterion then.....
I have the R09-HR (and never had a problem) and have been tempted by the M10, but the level dial just puts me right off.