Topic: Linking two R-44s for 8-channel?

[acidjack]

I read the R-44 manual about this, but after it said to connect the two decks using the "CTRL-SYNC" connection and a stereo mini cable I became suspicious that this would not do what I want.

Two of us will have an R-44 with 4 mics connected to it.  What we *want* to do is have them simultaneously stop/start, but to record using the mics connected to them, so we can do an 8-mic, time-synced mix (I realize it may not be bit-perfect, but it will be more perfect than saying "Hit REC NOW!" to each other...)

Does simply connecting two R-44s, assigning one as "Master" and one as "Slave", using a stereo mini cable, do the trick for the above?  From reading the manual I can't tell if all this does is sync two R-44s to record the SAME signal (i.e., simply make one R-44 the backup of the other). 

Thanks in advance for the help. Trying this tomorrow so the sooner I hear the better.  Cheers.

[page]

I read the R-44 manual about this, but after it said to connect the two decks using the "CTRL-SYNC" connection and a stereo mini cable I became suspicious that this would not do what I want.

Two of us will have an R-44 with 4 mics connected to it.  What we *want* to do is have them simultaneously stop/start, but to record using the mics connected to them, so we can do an 8-mic, time-synced mix (I realize it may not be bit-perfect, but it will be more perfect than saying "Hit REC NOW!" to each other...)

Does simply connecting two R-44s, assigning one as "Master" and one as "Slave", using a stereo mini cable, do the trick for the above?  From reading the manual I can't tell if all this does is sync two R-44s to record the SAME signal (i.e., simply make one R-44 the backup of the other). 

Thanks in advance for the help. Trying this tomorrow so the sooner I hear the better.  Cheers.

I swear I recall someone here doing a test, and the results are that they start and stop correctly, but they arn't clocked together so you end up using similar methods that are used when you have two different recorders. I think the R44 is bit-perfect on it's digital in, so you could slave one of them and burn two channels and get 6 out of it that are clocked synced, but that might not be enough for what you are looking for.

I think it's in the recorder thread Pt2.

[Ozpeter]

A colleague is using a pair of these for classic location recordings (8 inputs) and he says he has no trouble with sync.  I've used mine for audio while shooting video on a Panasonic GH1 DSLR for 50+ minutes at a time and they stayed locked (it seemed to me) with no noticable drift.  So I'd expect a pair of R-44's to stay PDC (pretty damn close) in time with each other even unsynced.

[page]

A colleague is using a pair of these for classic location recordings (8 inputs) and he says he has no trouble with sync.  I've used mine for audio while shooting video on a Panasonic GH1 DSLR for 50+ minutes at a time and they stayed locked (it seemed to me) with no noticable drift.  So I'd expect a pair of R-44's to stay PDC (pretty damn close) in time with each other even unsynced.

my 722 and korg are only off by about 1100 samples after an hour, but they are off.

I didn't fully realize the value of word clock until I had it.

[kirk97132]

I had used two R-44's and the clocks were not the same.  Even edirol will support this.  When I called them they were like yep, they will not clock the same even if they are the same deck.  For the two decks I used, it began to show up at about 20 mins in.  You could hear the drum hits starting to sound like delay. 

[yltfan]

Trade in one of them for a DR-680!

[Gutbucket]

What we *want* to do is have them simultaneously stop/start, but to record using the mics connected to them, so we can do an 8-mic, time-synced mix (I realize it may not be bit-perfect, but it will be more perfect than saying "Hit REC NOW!" to each other...)

That's exactly what it does.

(just clarifying what the others have stated)
If you both have R-44s, then setting one to MASTER and the other to SLAVE and connecting them with a stereo mini TRS to stereo mini TRS cable will simply sync the transport control functions, but not the sampling clocks.   You'll end up with 4 tracks from each recorder, 8 separate tracks total.  The sync feature on the R-44 takes care of the initial alignment of tracks between the two recorders.  Not perfectly to single-sample accuracy, but probably close enough. The clocks can still drift once recording starts.  Whether the drift is significant or not depends on the two particular recorders. If the clocks match well then you can record for longer before you notice any drift.

Crystal oscillators are somewhat effected by temperature.  Although I doubt it would be very significant, your chances of them staying in close sync might be slightly improved if the recorders are kept at the same temperature.  So it's a good idea not to leave one running in the sun and the other in the shade and easy enough to do.  If anyone has the technical expertise to confirm or refute if this would have any appreciable effect, please let me know.  It may have no real world significance.

FWIW, when I'm recording 4 channels and the R-44 is not an option (it doesn’t fit into my pocket), I run two R-09s and hit record simultaneously on both decks.  Once aligned, the timing difference is very close and usually not a problem over the course of an hour and a half or so.   Interestingly, the sync does not drift appreciably over the course of many, many hours when playing back from the recorders themselves- using the same clock for playback as recording.  In that situation the differences between clocks essentially cancel out.

[dream]

What we *want* to do is have them simultaneously stop/start, but to record using the mics connected to them, so we can do an 8-mic, time-synced mix (I realize it may not be bit-perfect, but it will be more perfect than saying "Hit REC NOW!" to each other...)

That's exactly what it does.

(just clarifying what the others have stated)
If you both have R-44s, then setting one to MASTER and the other to SLAVE and connecting them with a stereo mini TRS to stereo mini TRS cable will simply sync the transport control functions, but not the sampling clocks.   

Interestingly on page 80 of the R-44 manual you can read:

"Control Sync Jack
Stereo Mini Type
Word clock sync and start/stop remote control of 2 units"

[rastasean]

June's sound on sound magazine discusses word clocks for the studio but it is interesting to read about them just to understand a little more.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun10/articles/masterclocks.htm

[Gutbucket]

Interestingly on page 80 of the R-44 manual you can read:

"Control Sync Jack
Stereo Mini Type
Word clock sync and start/stop remote control of 2 units"

Yep.. and that's been the source of confusion.  It was reported to work that way, but that may be a misprint.  Not many use the recorders linked togther this way so it hasn't been discussed much.  AFIAK, kirkd 1st reported his experience with the clock sync issue and talked with Edirol about it, who told him no clock sync.  At that point I assumed the work clock sync mentioned in the manual was a misprint.  I've never run two machines linked together myself.

[Ozpeter]

At risk of insulting my fellow members who have tried this and found problems - you did use a stereo linking cable, yes?  I could imagine the one leg of the connection would control transport and the other would provide clocking.  Use only a mono cable and perhaps you'd get transport sync but not clock sync.  I'd be surprised if the sync wasn't clock too as it wouldn't be at all hard for them to do. 

However, things do get mis-stated by manufacturers, like the claim that two Tascam 680's can be linked for 16 channels - which is impossible as one channel on each device is used for the sync control, so 14 is the max.

[bgreen]

However, things do get mis-stated by manufacturers, like the claim that two Tascam 680's can be linked for 16 channels - which is impossible as one channel on each device is used for the sync control, so 14 is the max.

Actually it's 12 max inputs plus 2 stereo mix downs to make a total of 16 ;-)

[pinknoise]

I've observed the waveform Word CLock at the stereo mini-plug's ring in Master Sync mode.
So, Owners manual is not miss print, i think.
you try to stereo cable,again!

[kirk97132]

However, things do get mis-stated by manufacturers, like the claim that two Tascam 680's can be linked for 16 channels - which is impossible as one channel on each device is used for the sync control, so 14 is the max.

Actually it's 12 max inputs plus 2 stereo mix downs to make a total of 16 ;-)

Actually you can record 8 channels on master deck and 6 on slave deck for a total of 14 separate channels and then you also have two channels of mix down available on the slave deck.  This also requires an external SPDIF input in order to use channel #7 & #8.  You would then send the output from your RCA spdif into the slave deck.  But I believe you are limited to the 6 channels on the slave deck for mixdown.  You can record 14 synced channels with two decks and can slave as many decks as you want to the master.  but each slave deck will be limited to 6 channels.

[yug du nord]

^^^I might be wrong.....  but doesn't a clock source need to sync'd with a digital connection?

[kirk97132]

Your right about a need for clock connection between the two decks.  The 680 that is acting as a slave will need to be set as "cascade" setting in the menu and a digi coax(rca) cable used.  Out of master deck to the input of the slave deck via the digi rca connectors.  At this point you "lose" the last two channels(7 & on the slave deck because it uses the rca input to sync the decks.  It also allows for the control of the start and stop from the master deck.  But you can still input a digi audio signal into your master deck.  You then are using the master 680 for the clock source on both decks. 

[Ozpeter]

Oops - I think I derailed this thread!

[capnhook]

Did we ever get to the truth about whether linking two r-44s will link the clocks and transports, or is it just the transports that are linked?

[Gutbucket]

The consensus seems to be that when linked the machine transport funtions are synced (not exactly but to within a number of milliseconds), but don't count on clocks syncing. 

My suspicion is that the clock sync feature was intended, but wasn't reliable enough to work consistantly, wasn't used very often, and support for it was quietly dropped.  Kirk reports that he was told by an Edirol/Roland tech that the clocks won't sync when linking with the cable, despite what the manual states.  I think the reality is that you might get lucky and get two machines that actually do sync clocks sucessfully, or two with clocks that don't sync but are close enough that they won't drift significantly over the course of typical length recording, or you might not get lucky and find significant drift.  Whatever you do, don't bet the farm on it.

[RichT]

I've observed the waveform Word CLock at the stereo mini-plug's ring in Master Sync mode.
So, Owners manual is not miss print, i think.
you try to stereo cable,again!

I've found the same thing

I've successfully clocked a Tascam HD-P2 and RME multiface to it.  Unfortunately there's no display message on the R-44 to say if it's clocked to an external signal (although the sample rate will flash if the incoming signal is of the same rate), so the problem could be that they won't work properly as a slave

http://rtsound.net/?p=191

[Gutbucket]

Some have reported it does work.  It definitely doesn't work for others.  That's part of what makes me believe it is simply unreliable as implemented.

I sometimes clock sync a Tascam DR-680 to the R-44 via S/PDIF, locking the DR-680 (which indicates if it sees incomming clock signal) to the clock of the R-44.  But I'm using a coax SPDIF cable, not the sync jack and cable, and not linking transports.

[kirk97132]

I am not going to validate or contest anyone ones claims.  I can tell you what happened to me using two R-44's linked with a sync cable.  They did start at nearly the same time, and they did stop at nearly the same time.  after approx 20 min I could hear AND see the drum hits start to move apart.  Now I was using the deck strictly as multitrack with each deck having an overhead drum kit mic.  The files were very large, almost two and a half hours.  I called Edirol got a tech dept on the phone and spoke directly to one of their engineers.  When I told him what happened he said, yes thats right.  The clocks WILL NOT LOCK to each other.  So there you have it.  Take it or leave it I don't care.  Don't ask me to explain it or account for anything those discussion went on way too long in past threads.  I don't run an R-44 any more but use a DR-680.  Those 8 tracks are Synced every-time.

[capnhook]

Takes too long to get to the truth around here sometimes, eh kirkd?  Enough with the "I thinks..."  Us fellers want a real answer most times.   

Thanks very much.  Just what I suspected -- transports linked, clocks not linked.


Will the OP lock this thread please?

[ziko]

http://archive.org/details/flipperdave2012-04-21.mtx.flac16
http://archive.org/details/flipperdave2011-08-20.mtx.flac16

it has worked for me. I did not stretch or shrink either source. I know i have done it more. these two came to mind. one is 6 channels, one is eight

[kirk97132]

one of the reasons I cited file length was because is the drift were say .0001%, then a larger files size would show drift sooner since .0001% of 4GB is a much larger number than .0001% of 0.6GB.  And As also stated this was not a full band recording.  Could I have picked it up if it were a recording of the full band.  Quite possibly not.  But since It was something with very sharp peaks and easily identifiable, it was not hard to identify.  all of the above numbers are completely made up for the purpose of an example.  I do not pretend to know how much of a percentage off anything was. 

I would also like to add, that there is nothing in the world to say that two decks will not run the same.  Case in point,  the same R-44 I owned ran dead on with a marantz CDR that the sound guy owned.  DEAD FUCKING ON, without any sync at all.   So can your example of two R-44s running in sync be right, why yes it can.  Can two R-44's run different, why yes they can.   Can you depend on them running in sync?  I would not and if it was a paying gig I would either rent gear with the number of tracks I need or borrow a USBPre2 to ensure that they are locked to a single clock source. 

And Ziko, even on a stage lip set up, I find that the mere 4 or five feet to the lip causes a time shift which can be adjusted to bring the SBD track and the mic track into perfect sync.  It's not much but it is there.  Maybe I'm too particular or too anal but that tiny difference helps with phasing issues and comb filtering effects.