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Author Topic: Explain phantom power to a noob  (Read 3334 times)

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Offline bewildered

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Explain phantom power to a noob
« on: October 03, 2006, 11:45:17 PM »
Its my understanding that this is used when connecting an condensor mic to the microtrack to supply enough current to the microphone because the microtrack wont do that automatically for some reason. What is the relationship between phantom power and the battery? is phantom power like a special battery mode? Is their any reason to turn it off if theres no mic plugged in?

Offline audBall

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Re: Explain phantom power to a noob
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2006, 07:59:48 AM »
Here's some general info on phantom power:

http://www.sounddevices.com/tech/phantom.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_power

Phantom power is a method of powering many types of audio devices, including many of the microphones we use.  However, some microphones (i.e. electrets) do not need phantom to operate. 

If you are currently running your microphones off of an external battery box, then there's no need to have the phantom power turned on. 
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Offline bewildered

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Re: Explain phantom power to a noob
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2006, 01:41:08 PM »
Quote
If you are currently running your microphones off of an external battery box, then there's no need to have the phantom power turned on. 

what if im running it off a microtrack thats being powered by USB? If i leave the phantom power setting to [on] with nothing plugged into it will it still drain my battery? if not, is their any reason to turn phantom power off? can i set the MT to a certain voltage?

Ive read that the MT doesnt support a full 48v, but instead somewhere around 30v, so this means when im shopping for a condensor mic i need to find a low voltage one? according to your article since theirs no quality diff between high and low voltage condensor mics and considering the significant power draw of a high volt mic, theres no reason to get a mic above 12v. Or is it the current draw that matters in terms of battery life? It looks from that list that a 9v mic and a 48v mic can have the same current draw. That doesnt make any sense.

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Re: Explain phantom power to a noob
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2006, 02:10:44 PM »
Quote
If you are currently running your microphones off of an external battery box, then there's no need to have the phantom power turned on. 

what if im running it off a microtrack thats being powered by USB? If i leave the phantom power setting to [on] with nothing plugged into it will it still drain my battery? if not, is their any reason to turn phantom power off? can i set the MT to a certain voltage?
 

If you have no mics connected there will be no draw, therefore no effect on your batteries. At least not noticable.


Ive read that the MT doesnt support a full 48v, but instead somewhere around 30v, so this means when im shopping for a condensor mic i need to find a low voltage one? according to your article since theirs no quality diff between high and low voltage condensor mics and considering the significant power draw of a high volt mic, theres no reason to get a mic above 12v. Or is it the current draw that matters in terms of battery life? It looks from that list that a 9v mic and a 48v mic can have the same current draw. That doesnt make any sense.

Almost any condenser mic is going to want to see 48v to achieve it's full dynamic range, some want more like 60v. They should all function at 30v, but with a negative impace on dynamic range (read: ability to handle louder sources).

The voltage applied to the microphone shouldn't (correct me if I'm wrong) have much effect on the draw against the battery, that's dependent on the currnet that the mic is taking.

Basically, if you get a good set of mics that want to see 48v+, give it to them and your ears will thank you.
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Offline ghellquist

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Re: Explain phantom power to a noob
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2006, 03:37:31 AM »

Almost any condenser mic is going to want to see 48v to achieve it's full dynamic range, some want more like 60v. They should all function at 30v, but with a negative impace on dynamic range (read: ability to handle louder sources).


A small clarificiation is needed here.

Basically, the microphone has some electronic circuits. These get their power from the preamp over the mic cable. How the power is delivered (and hence in what ways you could possibly build a microphone) is described by the standard. Not all mics are made for 48V phantom, do check your mic, it might be damaged otherwise.

Phantom power is described by a standard (a paper describing how you really should do things). It should be followed by all mic pres. Mics that are made to work with phantom power are expecting the mic pre to follow the standard and happily be connected to any mic pre following the standard.

A quite different example of a standard may be the 110V 60Hz you get from the power outlet in most of the US (and several other parts of the world), whereas in Europe you instead have 230V 50Hz for the most part. So if you take a unit from Europe (expecting 230V) to US and plug it in to the power outlet (giving 110V) it might work or it might not work.

The most used standard as of today is P48, ie 48V phantom power. (There is a quite unusual standard called P12 -- don´t ever connect a mic made for that to P48, it could be damaged).
P48 says that the pre should have a "free" Voltage (without mic) of 48V plus or minus 4V. That is 44 to 52V. Mics are made to this and there are no guarantees what will happen if the pre does not supply this voltage. If for some reason your pre outputs lower or higher voltage anything can happen.

The real world experience is that if you have a much higher voltage than 52V the mic may burn some circuits (don´t try this at home kids). It all depends on the exact circuits inside the mic, some may take more, some less.

If you have a lower voltage then 44V a number of different things happens, exactly what depends on the exact circuits inside the mic, often only known by the manufacturer. One possibility is that the mic works just fine, perhaps with a slight loss of performance (more hiss or lower max sound before distortion). This might be down to a minimum voltage, say around 15V to 20V for many real-world mics before the mic stops working totally. Other mics are much more sensitive, they may start making howling or crackling sounds or whatever -- remember we are giving the mic something it was not designed for. It is conceivable, but highly unlikely that something inside the mic may be damaged.

The MicroTrack gives around 30V which is a really stupid thing as it violates the standard. I would not put much trust into the people designing it. Regardless, there is quite a bit of real-world experience of which mics works and which not. I think there is a list at the manufacturers site. In effect, if your mic is on the list other people has tried it with the Microtrack and found that despite everything it works. Fair enough, as long as you understand what you are doing it is OK to break the rules.

Gunnar

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Re: Explain phantom power to a noob
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2006, 10:34:30 AM »
Quote
If you are currently running your microphones off of an external battery box, then there's no need to have the phantom power turned on. 

what if im running it off a microtrack thats being powered by USB? If i leave the phantom power setting to [on] with nothing plugged into it will it still drain my battery? if not, is their any reason to turn phantom power off? can i set the MT to a certain voltage?


MT with USBpower - running PHpower will drain faster than not, though I'm not sure if it will if you ahve nothing plugged in.

I'm also not sure, but I'm thinking you'll have to turn off the PHpower in order to use the analog inputs, otherwise you risk damaging your batterybox, etc.  Also, if you have it turned on, and then plug your PHpowered mics, you risk damaging those - you should always "plug then power".

And not, the voltage is waht it is.  No adjustment. 


Ive read that the MT doesnt support a full 48v, but instead somewhere around 30v, so this means when im shopping for a condensor mic i need to find a low voltage one? according to your article since theirs no quality diff between high and low voltage condensor mics and considering the significant power draw of a high volt mic, theres no reason to get a mic above 12v. Or is it the current draw that matters in terms of battery life? It looks from that list that a 9v mic and a 48v mic can have the same current draw. That doesnt make any sense.

You may be able to find mics that use a range of PHpower, then 30v will be fine.  But you shouldn't get a 12v and then run 30v into it, it will damage your mic.

Personally, I wouldn't trust the MT's PHpower.  I'd either use self-powered mics (Nak100s or AKGC1000s) or something with a battery box (AT853) and run those into the line-in.  Or you could add a PS2 between your mics and the MT, that will give you good 48v PHpower for your mics.

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Offline bewildered

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Re: Explain phantom power to a noob
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2006, 09:12:41 PM »
thanks for all the info. If i use a self powered mic, then i stand to conserve the MT's battery much more?

Quote
MT with USBpower - running PHpower will drain faster than not

why would the battery drain at all if its being powered via usb? you make it sound as if reguardless of the power source the MT will always drain its battery first.

Would you say theirs a significant quality difference between the supplied mic and a quality condensor?

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Re: Explain phantom power to a noob
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2006, 10:36:51 AM »

Quote
MT with USBpower - running PHpower will drain faster than not

why would the battery drain at all if its being powered via usb? you make it sound as if reguardless of the power source the MT will always drain its battery first.

Actually, I didn't say that at all.  All I said was that if you use PHpower, you will use your power, not matter where it comes from, faster than if you did not use PHpower. 

If i use a self powered mic, then i stand to conserve the MT's battery much more?

Of course, if you don't have to use the MT to power your mics, the power supply for the MT (no matter what it is) will last longer.

Would you say theirs a significant quality difference between the supplied mic and a quality condensor?

The quality of a hand-built German $2000 condensor is going to kick the crap out of your factory-made Chinese $10 MT mic.

Whether you want to upgrade from the T-Mic included with the MT is up to you.  However, its a given that you will achieve better results with better mics.

Terry



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