Topic: Low volume recording

[skokiebob]

Question for all the experts, (settle down, quit pushing, you'll all get your chance to answer ) I'm in the understanding that when recording low volume shows, they will sound better if I have my levels as high as possible so as to "gather more info", as opposed to just adding gain in post. Correct me if I'm wasting my time, because this method results in having to "ride the levels" all night, anticipating the end of a song and cranking levels down before the applause crushes me, then cranking back up at the start of the next song. Thanks, I'll hang up and listen to your response.

[dorrcoq]

16 bit or 24 bit?

[Church-Audio]

Question for all the experts, (settle down, quit pushing, you'll all get your chance to answer ) I'm in the understanding that when recording low volume shows, they will sound better if I have my levels as high as possible so as to "gather more info", as opposed to just adding gain in post. Correct me if I'm wasting my time, because this method results in having to "ride the levels" all night, anticipating the end of a song and cranking levels down before the applause crushes me, then cranking back up at the start of the next song. Thanks, I'll hang up and listen to your response.

You never want to ride levels on a program your not familiar with not only that but its impossible to do so properly with out being able to "monitor" the signal not just look at a VU meter. I would strongly suggest you set it and forget it. Once you get a good level then leave the recorder alone. I try and set my levels on average about -10 or so not to much higher then -10 because there can be peeks way above that so shoot for -12 to -10 and you should be ok for most things. The other 10db is easily made up in post with normalization or boost.

Chris

[Brian Skalinder]

IIRC, you tend to record unamplified stuff, making it a bit more difficult to set levels appropriately given the broad dynamic range between quiet passages of music and thunderous applause.  Basically, you have three options:

<1>  ride the levels (ugh)
<2>  set levels for the applause (probably very quiet music)
<3>  set levels for the music (applause may clip)

I hate doing <1>.  It's like a rollercoaster ride, detracts from my enjoyment of the performance, and results in rather challenging post-production to smooth things out.  I've bounced back and forth between <2-3>, but have mostly settled on <3>, damn the applause.  It's the music I really care about, after all.  Then, I'll either compress / limit the applause in post, or if the applause doesn't take to compression / limiting very well, just remove it outright.

As for what target dBFS levels, well...that depends on your gear and whether you're running 16- or 24-bit.  The non-specific answer:  set 16-bit levels so your music (assuming you're using method <3> above) peak approaches, but does not hit, 0 dBFS.  For 24-bit, you have some more headroom, so you need not approach 0 dBFS as closely as possible (without clipping).  I typically aim to peak -12 dBFS when running 24-bit.  But ultimately, it depends on the source material, recording gear, environment, and how loud I expect the occasional music peak to be.

[goodcooker]

<3>  set levels for the music (applause may clip)

I just view the music as the program material and remove the applause entirely if it doesn't take well to post production fixes. Sometimes I remove it anyway. I don't listen to live recordings for the applause and I don't imagine many other people do either.

I never ride the levels. They are set and left alone by the third song.

[illconditioned]

I usually run to applause levels, then apply compression in post.  This will bring all material close to the same level.  I like to hear the whole show, applause included.  Clipping on the applause bothers me.

I guess a second option is use something like "soft limit" on apogee converters.  I've never tried this, but I will some day...

  Richard

[Jeremy Lykins]

if the applause doesn't take to compression / limiting very well, just remove it outright.

I just view the music as the program material and remove the applause entirely if it doesn't take well to post production fixes. Sometimes I remove it anyway.

When you guys remove applause, do you just fade out and remove everything until the beginning of the next song?  Or do you just crop out the applause?  And when you do that do you share the recordings, or are they just for you?

[Dede2002]

if the applause doesn't take to compression / limiting very well, just remove it outright.

I just view the music as the program material and remove the applause entirely if it doesn't take well to post production fixes. Sometimes I remove it anyway.

When you guys remove applause, do you just fade out and remove everything until the beginning of the next song?  Or do you just crop out the applause?  And when you do that do you share the recordings, or are they just for you?

That's what I do: compress the applause ( when it's necessary) and fade out for like 6 or 7 seconds. All the rest is removed. Of course, I keep band intro and stuff like that. But I always use fade out/fade in. It's very boring to listen to drunk people laughing and screaming between songs IMO.
Well, I never share online. But if one day I decide to share, I'd still use fade out/fade in. I mean, what's the point to keep all that noise between songs?
Take care

[bluntforcetrauma]

I usually run to applause levels, then apply compression in post.  This will bring all material close to the same level.  I like to hear the whole show, applause included.  Clipping on the applause bothers me.

I guess a second option is use something like "soft limit" on apogee converters.  I've never tried this, but I will some day...

  Richard

how do you runt he compression i need some help on how to do that, thanks

[Brian Skalinder]

how do you runt he compression i need some help on how to do that, thanks

Check the Computer Recording README1st thread, there are links to several compression-related threads which should help.

[bluntforcetrauma]

how do you runt he compression i need some help on how to do that, thanks

Check the Computer Recording README1st thread, there are links to several compression-related threads which should help.

thank you very much

[rjp]

As far as dealing with applause goes, it's a judgment call as to whether or not to fade out applause in classical shows. Usually I fade it out, but not if there are announcements between selections.

When I'm running binaural or with the LS-10 internal mics (which act like subcards), I use a car stereo test to set my level, then back off just a bit. Applause will usually clip slightly in this case, but I'll hard-limit it anyway.

With the 170s (conventional cardioids), I pick up less applause, even though I'm running from a balcony.

[Scooter123]

I want the levels slightly higher than 12db and definitely not peaking.

In post I compress the dynamic range significantly of the whole file and boost quiet portions.  In loud applause, I will compress that portion again, quite significantly.  I then boost the whole mess close to 0db.   

I use Gold Wave.  And I probably compress more than most would, but I like an even sound on speakers and you never really notice it.  Its not a 2x4 on the wave signal.

[B-GREEN]

I'm a big fan of the live experience translating back to what I listen to so I couldn't ever take out the drunkards and the clapping. Just wouldn't have that "I'm there" feel to it. I shoot for about -12 as well which gives lots of room for the transients and sporadic hoots and hollers from the fans.

Not sure what you guys use for post production. I settled in on wavelab for what I do and couldn't be happier. The montage feature lets you attenuate only the applause or offending peak with a simple drag of a line and it also allows you to handle each channel individually which helps when you have one loud guy to your left but the right is quiet. IMO, it's a lot more exact than a lot of the other options and it also allows you to ease in and out of the loud applause so it sounds natural if it's done right.

Another item that comes in really handy is a UAD card( I use the project pak 1) and the precision buss compressor and the precision limiter. I know you guys all spend a ton on gear already, but for boosting soft levels, these plugins are darn near transparent. It's well worth the money knowing I can be safe, set my levels pretty kinda low and bring them back post production without consequence. Out of all the software I've used for post production, UAD is the best bang for you buck. just my opinion of course.

Riding the volume makes for a pita in post production, set it and forget it is great advise.

[skokiebob]

Thank you, Thank you, you guys always give me lots to research, and always very accurate info. Very much appreciated. 24 Bit is the answer BTW.

[nameloc01]

I had this exact problem last night taping the Cowboy Junkies. But maybe even a little worse..they play quiet electric,loud electric, and very,very soft acoustic. I find its overall better to set levels to the (highest) music and hope for the best. My levels were ALL OVER THE PLACE last night. It actually came out a lot better than I thought it would.

[Frequincy]

I had this exact problem last night taping the Cowboy Junkies. But maybe even a little worse..they play quiet electric,loud electric, and very,very soft acoustic. I find its overall better to set levels to the (highest) music and hope for the best. My levels were ALL OVER THE PLACE last night. It actually came out a lot better than I thought it would.

The dynamics of a recording like that can be an awsome experience on a great playback system. It's like if there was no quiet, there would be no loud.

On the other hand it makes for an annoying experience on say, a factory car stereo.

The elusive balance is hard to reach.

[nameloc01]

Yeah,it actually sounds real nice. I was just somewhat freaking out watching those levels jump all over. Hardest band to tape ever...ironically,one of the most taper friendly.

[skokiebob]

Yeah,it actually sounds real nice. I was just somewhat freaking out watching those levels jump all over. Hardest band to tape ever...ironically,one of the most taper friendly.

Yea, doesn't the singer actually recruite tapers from this site to record their shows? Anyway, after all this info, I do still have a question; Is it better to capture as much info as possible with the highest levels rather than simply adding gain in post? I realize 24 bit accomplishes some of this for you, but in my newb brain it still seems logical that higher levels will give you more raw data to tweak later. Plus am I correct that when adding gain you add noise as well? OK, commence firing...

[nameloc01]

Margo (the singer) does not...its their official "archivist" who does that.

[bgreen]

I do still have a question; Is it better to capture as much info as possible with the highest levels rather than simply adding gain in post? I realize 24 bit accomplishes some of this for you, but in my newb brain it still seems logical that higher levels will give you more raw data to tweak later. Plus am I correct that when adding gain you add noise as well? OK, commence firing...

Any process in post production has the potential to add noise and boosting gain on a really low volume recording, unless done with good quality plugins and a firm knowledge of the tools your using certainly has a good chance of adding/amplifying noise. You should try to get your levels as high as you can without a risk of  clipping, but  always leave some headroom there. Basically you want to find the balance between leaving enough room for your transients to hit a little below digital zero, but you certainly don't want your average RMS in the -40 to -30 range. It's all about finding that happy medium.

In all honesty, I would rather work post processing on a show that has a few cymbal hits/transients clipped than I would a show with a really low RMS. Thats just me though