Topic: AT-853's / Sony D8 - General Questions & Help Please!

[Rat6666]

Hi gang,

I recently bought myself a second-hand Sony TCD-D8, and am looking to buy a set of SP AT-853's (cardioids). I've heard nothing but good about them for the price, so I'm fairly sure those are what I'll be getting for mics. However, I welcome other suggestions since I'm extremely new to this and already I understand the point that it's better to be generous rather than stingy with funds, especially when it comes to mics.

My total budget is $500-800, and I've already spent $300 on the DAT. It'll be another $170 for the 853's. I'm looking for very good quality in my setup. I'm also leaning towards stealth, since some shows I go to may not be pro-taping. I don't really want to drag around a stand anyway. However, I'm sure I could upgrade to a decent stand later on to get above the crowd if ever needed.

I have an Echo Gina24 sound card with S/PDIF and optical input/outputs.

I'm setting up this rig primarily to record a Marc Cohn concert this May (acoustic, piano, etc). I'll be front row center in a playhouse/theater venue, so I'll be in a perfect spot for taping. Any suggestions on mic techniques, aiming, etc? I am hoping to get permission from the artist beforehand so I can set up close to/on the stage. If not, I'll have to stealth it on my lapels or in a hat.

Beyond that concert, the rig will be used for Mule, WSP, etc type shows from the crowd. Obviously I'm going to practice, practice practice before the Cohn concert to make sure I am familiar with what I'm doing!


My questions:
- What type of battery box/bass rolloff filter/analog-to-digital combo might be ideal for my setup/budget/use?
- Which is the better DAT > sound card input type - S/PDIF or optical?
- What sort of cables will I need to do all this?
- Is there anything else, obvious or not, that I may be overlooking?

I took a quick look at the AD-20 but that's way out of my price range. However, I'm curious to see how much better the quality would be using that over the onboard ADC in the Sony D8. Is an external ADC something I should really be concerned about at this point based on my budget, or will I experience decent results using only the onboard ADC?

Any and all other suggestions and observations are heartily welcomed!!!

Thanks in advance.

[Cooker]

at this point, and with your budget, you will be better off getting a battery box for use with those mics.

as for DAT > SoundCard, coax will be more trouble-free, and if you get a coax cable you will be able to patch off other people at shows too. you may be able to find a 7pin-optical cable for cheap, but that won't do you much good in the field.

stay away, very far away, from Coresound cables. never put a 7-pin in your deck unless it has the sony 7-pin head on it. prodigital cables are the best bang for the buck, imo (http://www.prodigitalinc.com)

[joemango]

Definitely get the SP battery box!  You CANNOT use phantom power on those mics (they take 10v max bias power) so you either must use the plug-in power from your D8 (bad idea) or a battery box.  Then run into the line-in on your D8 (not the mic in).  You should get some decent recordings.

Optical IS s/pdif, just in another form.  Either way is OK.  I personally prefer Optical.  BTW, Sony does make an optical 7-pin for the DATs (I have one, just not sure of the model #, about $80).

That being said, most digital equipment is Coax s/pdif, so if you ever want to patch, get a coax 7-pin.  And stay away from the homebrew ones.  Make sure they have the sony connector on the 7-pin end and have the analog/digital switch (for input)

[Sean Gallemore]

Definitely get the SP battery box!  You CANNOT use phantom power on those mics (they take 10v max bias power) so you either must use the plug-in power from your D8 (bad idea) or a battery box.  Then run into the line-in on your D8 (not the mic in).  You should get some decent recordings.

THIS IS FALSE.  Get the SP-CMC-4 (at853) mics for $170 WITH the $100 phantom power adapter kit.  It's listed under options on the CMC-4 page.  This bumps your price up only $20 over the Battery box w/ bass roll-off option, but you will now be able to run them off of 48V phantom power from a quality preamp.  There is one major advantage to this: 48V phantom power increases the dynamic range, as well as MAX SPL of the mics.  You will have a greater chance at preventing the mics from "overloading" and the overall sound will be fuller compared to the battery box powered mics.

so...
$170(CMC-4s) + $80(SP-SPSB-1 battery box w/ roll-off) = $250
$170 + $100(phantom power adapter kit) = $270

here you get better sound, versatility with preamps, etc.

or, if you think that is too much, the SP-CMC-2 mics are a GREAT great alternative.  These mics used by myself and others on this board have worked well with zero problems.  However, the the CMC-4s with the phantom power adapter kit is definitely a step up.
$120(CMC-2s) + $80(SPSPSB-1) = $200

gotta go to class, I'll post more later if necessary

[Rat6666]

Thanks for all the suggestions so far!

I suppose I'd be most interested in phantom power on the 853's and using an Oade Edirol UA-5 (both mods).

If that's a good way to go, what other cables/adapters will I need?

This is how it's starting to look:
853's > SP-SPSB-1/Phantom > UA-5 > coax > D8 > Sony 7-pin to S/PDIF coax > Gina24 > Wavelab > Oh the humanity

Any other suggestions welcome!

[Sean Gallemore]

looks beautiful, except you will be using a 7-pin cable for the ua-5 > D8 connection as well..

Hopefully you can get some more feedback on whether the phantom power adapters will be a good move for you, but it looks like they will work well.

[Rat6666]

OK. 7-pin it is

Edit:
P.S. - How was the riot?

[Sean Gallemore]

we passed the riot as it was just beginning (beer bottles being thrown) so we left to avoid trouble.  Supposedly the cops chased people up and down the street shooting tear gas/mace filled paint balls at people.  I saw a few guys in the clink whom got beaten pretty bad in the face.  I'm of the opinion that the only reason a bunch of people gathered to form a "mob" is because the police inflicted it, and it could have been easily avoided.

1) they picked the busiest intersection with the most frat houses to setup their riot station
2) they closed the intersection to cars but not foot traffic.
3) they set up all the squad cars in the middle of the intersection. This allowed people to easily encircle the entire intersection (we are talking about hundreds of people all around) and gave drunken bastages an easy target to throw beer bottles at.
4) they brought in helicopters to spotlight the intersection.  Crazy drunken college kids seeing bright lights from the sky makes crazy drunken college kids go crazier.  Also, lights usually attract people.
5) they had riot gear on before the riot started.  They knew it would happen, they wanted it to happen.

The city also moved the parade from saturday night to sunday afternoon because they wanted the parade to be more family appropriate instead of chicks showing their tits all over the place and drunks stumbling around.  Now students just party anyway and there's no main focus downtown to make all the partying legit.  Round up a few hundred people by starting a riot (yes, I think the police are responsible) and give them all a few hundred dollar fine each.  Pays for their expenses for the night and the police get to go paintballing.  Not a bad night to be a PO.

[Brian Skalinder]

1) they picked the busiest intersection with the most frat houses to setup their riot station
2) they closed the intersection to cars but not foot traffic.
3) they set up all the squad cars in the middle of the intersection. This allowed people to easily encircle the entire intersection (we are talking about hundreds of people all around) and gave drunken bastages an easy target to throw beer bottles at.
4) they brought in helicopters to spotlight the intersection.  Crazy drunken college kids seeing bright lights from the sky makes crazy drunken college kids go crazier.  Also, lights usually attract people.
5) they had riot gear on before the riot started.  They knew it would happen, they wanted it to happen.

None of this sounds unreasonable, IMO.  If the police knew they were going into a situation for crowd control with loads of drunk idiots, darn right they prepared themselves using the appropriate gear with which to protect themselves.  I'm not convinced it's the police's fault for drunk college kids being dumb-asses.

Why, I even remember back in the day when everyone gathered in HUGE numbers to party and (gasp!) just have a good time - without doing dumb-ass shit like throwing bottles at police.  There's no excuse for dumb-ass behaviour, drunk college kids or otherwise.

[Sean Gallemore]

They never threw shit at the police, because the police weren't there in riot gear coercing the situation.  That's all I'm saying.

This (mardi gras in SLO) has been going on for decades and this year is the first year riots have occured.  Coincidently, this is the first year the police have made a huge to-do prior to the big ho-down (ie: bringing in 20 different law enforcement agencies and advertising against partying).  Why didn't this happen in Santa Barbara or other big party schools?  Because the cops walk the streets there looking for people committing real crimes like rape, vandalism, theft, DUIs, etc.  They don't give a fuck about the kids walking the streets looking for some titty.  Am I saying the cops are breaking the law, and the jackholes throwing bottles are right? Not at all.  But it could have been just like the good ole days like you mentioned, skalinder, it could have been.

[Rat6666]

OK, got some prices back from Oade:

UA-5:
$295.00 for just the digi out mod
$500.00 for the "warm" mod + digi out
$550.00 for the "presence" mod + digi out

we also have a cable that provides both a coax digital in and out, and they can be used simultaneously, for 165.00 for the active field certified version, and 110.00 for the passive version. you can check them out here: http://www.oade.com/audiocenter/oadecable.html
hope this info helps...jim

Keeping in mind that the warm & presence mods would both break the bank on my budget, has anybody had experience using either of these? What kind of step up in quality might I expect by going with the extra mods?

What is the difference between the active and passive I/O cables? Which might I rather be inclined to go for?

My intended setup:
Phantom 853's > UA-5 > TCD-D8

Any other suggestions would be great. Thanks everyone for your help so far... Sooner or later I'll get straightened out and start recording!

[porphyry]

i'm just curious, well, i'm really interested in the UA-5...

how easy is it to sneak into a venue? the edirol specs pages say its pretty big and heavy...

[joemango]

THIS IS FALSE.  Get the SP-CMC-4 (at853) mics for $170 WITH the $100 phantom power adapter kit.  It's listed under options on the CMC-4 page.  This bumps your price up only $20 over the Battery box w/ bass roll-off option, but you will now be able to run them off of 48V phantom power from a quality preamp.  There is one major advantage to this: 48V phantom power increases the dynamic range, as well as MAX SPL of the mics.  You will have a greater chance at preventing the mics from "overloading" and the overall sound will be fuller compared to the battery box powered mics.

so...
$170(CMC-4s) + $80(SP-SPSB-1 battery box w/ roll-off) = $250
$170 + $100(phantom power adapter kit) = $270

here you get better sound, versatility with preamps, etc.

or, if you think that is too much, the SP-CMC-2 mics are a GREAT great alternative.  These mics used by myself and others on this board have worked well with zero problems.  However, the the CMC-4s with the phantom power adapter kit is definitely a step up.
$120(CMC-2s) + $80(SPSPSB-1) = $200

gotta go to class, I'll post more later if necessary

"THIS IS FALSE" is a little harsh.  The AT phantom adapters are doing the SAME JOB as the batterybox, for more $ and less functionality. I found this bit of info after blowing out one of my 853s by plugging it directly into phantom power, and speaking to a tech at Sound Professionals.

Phantom power is nothing but a bias voltage.  The mics, I repeat, CANNOT take a direct power source of more than 10v.  The Phantom power adapter sold by Audio-Technica does nothing more than choke 48v to about 9-10v.  So instead of spending that money on a simple power adapter, he can better spend it on a battery box with a bass roll-off.  IMHO, that's a better deal.  I've been using my 853's with the battery/level/roll-off box going into my UA-5 for a while now with great results.

That being said, there is an advantage to having balanced cabling to each mic (which you don't get with the battery box.. the lead is a 3-conductor 1/8" stereo jack in and out) but that only really makes any difference when your cables are >15 feet.  I've never gotten any buzz or pops in my setup, even with extensions as long as 20'.

Remember, he is using a small setup, potentially for stealth.  So those Phantom Power adapters are going to add a lot of unnecessary bulk if he wants to hide any of it.  Plus he'd have to get XLR-mini adapters ANYWAY to run into his D8, as he won't be using a pre right away.

The AT Phantom adapters are NOT the way to go if you want stealth, rat6666.

Schwillber,  please check your references before discounting FACTS.  I am talking from real world experience, not a spec sheet.

Thanks.

[goose]

When discussing battery boxes with bass rolloff and the phantom power adapters, it has not been clarified that the phantom power adapters (at least the AT 8533 does) also have a built in bass rolloff switch on the xlr housing with a "no rolloff" setting and two levels of rolloff, so that functionality is not lost when using phantom power.

[mattb]

I'm considering this (phantom) mod for my SP AT933s, but after listening to my MMW recording from Sunday, I don't know if I'll bother. It sounds great. I thought I'd get some gains by going to phantom, but based on your information I'm not so sure. I may just keep these as-is and maybe get different mics when I feel the need to upgrade.