Topic: Best under-$1000-pair miniatures?

[groovon]

I was considering getting a pair of 4060s or 4061s. It seems like a no-brainer, and I'll get a pair someday, but it's a big investment right now and there are plenty of times when omnis don't seem the right choice (small clubs, etc).

So I'm wondering what your opinions would be on a comparable set of miniature cardioids, performance/price-wise? Would you still go with DPA, i.e. 4080s? Or what other brands would you suggest?

My thought here is I'm either going to go for the most transparent and quietest small mics I can get (a one-time investment), or else I'll just stick with the $100-a-pair electrets that are 'pretty good'. In between these alternatives doesn't make as much sense to me, as I'll still be out a significant amount, but wondering if I should've spent more(!) If that makes any sense...

These are to be used both 'stealth-wise' with a battery power supply, and 'open', from normal phantom-powered XLR inputs.

BTW, where's the best place (in US), price-wise, to buy DPA? Please PM me if neccesary.)

Thanks!

Dave

[sparkey]

I've heard informed opinions speak very highly of the 4060's and 4061's.  A few years back we A/B'd some Audix microphones for Sonic Sense and they sounded very nice, although I haven't heard anything else about that particular brand since then.  You can also occasionally find MBHO mic sets with the actives for $1000 used, which may be your best bet.

There is also this sexy beast here...if you can find Schoeps caps for $1000, which you probably can, and then budget for an external preamp...

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=132711.120

[Gutbucket]

^^^^
Sweet rig.

I'm a big fan of DPA 4060 miniatures.  I have two pair and use them more than any of my 'regular mics'.

Unfortunately DPA doesn't make a miniature directional mic that translates as well as the omnis do for distance mic'ing.  The directionals are all are designed with frequency responses that accommodate the close mic'd proximity response of voice and instruments (They roll off below ~250Hz).

That said, I've heard some great, natural sounding recordings using 4099 instrument supercardioids.  The samples were of unamplified classical type material and had that beautiful DPA transparent clarity quality that is hard to find in most other miniature directionals I've heard.  I'd like to try a pair of 4099 myself if I could find a great deal on them.  The reduced low end response could be advantageous for some bass heavy amplified PA club gigs, but that's pure speculation.

Not many around here have used either of these mics but if you do, I'd look at the higher sensitivity variations of the 4099 (not the low sensitivity trumpet mic) since they roll off less and have a smoother, less vocal-specific treble response contour than the 4080 vocal specific mic.  Here's the response graphs:

4080 (at 25cm)-


4099 (various distances)-


Just noticed DPA now lists a 4098H hanging superchardioid choir mic due to ship next fall.  Specs appear identical to the 4099 (the posted response graph is identical), which somewhat validates using these mics for distance mic'ing this way.

[edited for grammar rocks]

[groovon]

Thanks for the nice detailed responses, guys. This is all great info for me, as I've never gotten into expensive tiny mics before. Would you buy them from B&H, or is there somewhere cheaper (Please PM me if neccesary. I notice from B&H, although I deal with them a lot, these are 'special order'/non-returnable.)

Also, I'm wondering where you can buy the microdot connectors separately? Thanks again!

Dave

[taperj]

Would you buy them from B&H, or is there somewhere cheaper (Please PM me if neccesary. I notice from B&H, although I deal with them a lot, these are 'special order'/non-returnable.)

I've ultimately bought both of my sets of Neumanns from Guitar Center. I do all my research beforehand on my own and get the product I want picked out, I then look for the best price online and go to Guitar Center and quote them B&H's price(or any other competitior with a better deal). On mics they have beat B&H's prices by quite a bit(even with 10.25% Chicago sales tax included they beat B&H by about 350$ on my skm140), another nice thing is you get what I like to call a "responsible human" out of the deal. If it comes in damaged or if there's any problem, I don't have to do anything other than give it right back to the human I bought it from at GC and they'll take it back with a smile, whereas on a special order item from B&H I believe you're looking at taking the complaint to the manufacturer with your middle man conveniently out of the equation in a non-refundable situation. Whether it be GC or another, it's not a bad idea to pit these companies against each other to get a better deal and some added value.

Have fun with the new mics! 

[groovon]

Would you buy them from B&H, or is there somewhere cheaper (Please PM me if neccesary. I notice from B&H, although I deal with them a lot, these are 'special order'/non-returnable.)

I've ultimately bought both of my sets of Neumanns from Guitar Center. I do all my research beforehand on my own and get the product I want picked out, I then look for the best price online and go to Guitar Center and quote them B&H's price(or any other competitior with a better deal). On mics they have beat B&H's prices by quite a bit(even with 10.25% Chicago sales tax included they beat B&H by about 350$ on my skm140), another nice thing is you get what I like to call a "responsible human" out of the deal. If it comes in damaged or if there's any problem, I don't have to do anything other than give it right back to the human I bought it from at GC and they'll take it back with a smile, whereas on a special order item from B&H I believe you're looking at taking the complaint to the manufacturer with your middle man conveniently out of the equation in a non-refundable situation. Whether it be GC or another, it's not a bad idea to pit these companies against each other to get a better deal and some added value.

Have fun with the new mics! 

Thanks for the tip. I haven't always had the same positive experiences with GC as you have, even though I've spent tens of thousands with them over the years. It depends on the item and the salesman. I can't see them being interested in getting DPAs for me though, and if they did it would also be on a special order basis.
There's a nearby pro audio store where I might be able to look at some and negotiate a price.

Dave

[taperj]

I haven't always had the same positive experiences with GC as you have, even though I've spent tens of thousands with them over the years.

Honestly, I've had nothing but horrendous experiences with their staff, I literally have to go in and almost order it for myself because most of their "experts" wouldn't know a skm140 from a drum stick. I only use them for saving money, zero interest credit for a year and the refundability and accountability on a special order. As I stated, the research is done long before I hit the doors of GC.

I can't see them being interested in getting DPAs for me though, and if they did it would also be on a special order basis.

They'll get 'em if they can make a buck, or even break even. They'll order brands they don't carry and I've never been told it's non-refundable because it's special order.

There's a nearby pro audio store where I might be able to look at some and negotiate a price.

In my experience, "local" shops generally can't compete even with B&H price wise. There are obviously other added benefits to buying for a local reputed pro audio dealer with good professionals though.

[groovon]

I'll do more looking obviously, but honestly right now at this price level it's more important to make sure and get what I want even if it costs a bit more. I can actually imagine GC stiffing me with a refusal of service once they have my money. It's happened before.

The local store is having hard times, so they're bending over backwards to sell stock. And I'd rather help them than GC, anyday. I'll never forget a previously 'friendly salesman' at GC knowingly taking my money for new 16-bit ADATs only days before the 20-bit model was due out (he knew it all too well), and then refusing to credit me towards the newer model, unless I paid list price with no discount. I never forgave that salesman, and I've rarely visited a GC since.

Anyhow, back to the more pleasant subject of miniature microphones..!

Oh yeah, where do you get your microdot connectors from? And are you guys even using those, as on the original mics, or are you 'hacking' them off and using mini-XLRs or whatever to mate with your various preamps/phantom/battery boxes?

PS - Here is what I found so far in a search, but is there any alternative to buying them as a DPA part? :

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=56418.0

Also, what is the optimal DC input bias voltage for the 4060 cap? In the specs I see only the raw DC input the various DPA adaptors will accept (i.e. 5V to 50V).

Thanks!
Dave

[listener2]

My experience with going into a local GC store was similar... the staff I dealt with was pretty much clueless to what items and model numbers were of things that GC advertises on their web pages and could not find anything I asked for and did not know what I was talking about.  So I left.  Anyway, as for my DPA 4060 mics, I bought mine through B&H Photo with their low price quote offering.  Not much of a discount but I ordered it anyway also not feeling comfortable or happy about their "special order items, no refund, no return" policy.  I took the chance.  It took the full 2 to 3 weeks for B&H to deliver the stereo mic kit to me from DPA.  I don't know why B&H takes so long to ship and deliver this item to you.  I called and spoke to DPA company reps themselves and they said that they ship the orders out fast, the same day that they get such orders and it only takes a few days for Fed Ex to deliver the package.  Why B&H has DPA ship the mics to their warehouse first and then B&H sits on it and reships to the customer 2 weeks later behooves me to no end.  They usually do fine on everything else.  Anyway to shorten the story, I received my DPA 4060 stereo mic kit and one of the DPA XLR phantom power adapters was defective and made loud scratchy noise when first plugging into mic power.  I called DPA for service and they (DPA) made me pay for return shipping of the defective XLR adapter instead of nicely offering to replace it at no cost to me (as I just got the set brand spanking new supposedly from them and already dished out over $1000 for a defect?)  DPA did not care and said that's the way it is, pay up!.  They would not be understanding of the situation.  So I had to pay extra to replace the defective XLR phantom power adapter.  Other than that, the DPA 4060 mics have been performing excellent for me and make excellent recordings.  I compared them with another set of mics called Countryman B3 mics that I also purchased for about $369 total for a matched stereo pair and I was surprised that the Countryman B3 mics sounded just as good as the DPA 4060's.  This is not to put down the DPA mics sound or noise level qualities. They both are excellent mics, its just that the B3 set cost about 1/3 the DPA mics!  The DPA 4060's have the edge in some recordings while the B3's sometimes sounded better to me.  Overall you won't go wrong with either one of these.  The DPA 4060's are very sensitive mics though... so they might overload sensitive high gain preamp stages more readily than the lower sensitivity DPA 4061's.  I have the low sensitivity model of the B3 mics though.  So keep that in mind for the differences I reporteed.

[groovon]

Thanks for the info and the mic comparison. I saw B3s being used around here and was interested, but their info on their site doesn't do much to inspire confidence - described only as 'voice mics', and not giving any dynamic range or much in the way of impressive specs. But maybe they're just being honest(!) I'm sure they're good mics. Hearing of your experience with DPA was also less than inspiring. Maybe I will call them for a chat first (before they have my money!)

For the record, I'd also consider a used pair, but only if they're in excellent condition.

Dave

[groovon]

Has anybody seen/heard of this company, or played with any of these (link below)?


http://microphonemadness.com/products/mmhlsomsenmi.htm

http://microphonemadness.com/products/mmhigsencars1.htm


These are some of their 'higher-end' ones, which they claim use Sennheiser capsules. Specs aren't all that impressive (65dB dynamic range [edit - sorry, that's s/n ratio]); nevertheless I'd be curious to hear anything about them.

I know, I said I was going for either high-end or low-budget(!) Just curious, that's all...

Dave

[illconditioned]

Has anybody seen/heard of this company, or played with any of these (link below)?


http://microphonemadness.com/products/mmhlsomsenmi.htm

http://microphonemadness.com/products/mmhigsencars1.htm


These are some of their 'higher-end' ones, which they claim use Sennheiser capsules. Specs aren't all that impressive (65dB dynamic range); nevertheless I'd be curious to hear anything about them.

I know, I said I was going for either high-end or low-budget(!) Just curious, that's all...

Dave

Omnis are based on the MKE2 capsule.  Cardioids are based on the MKE40 capsule.  Both are good.

  Richard

[groovon]

Omnis are based on the MKE2 capsule.  Cardioids are based on the MKE40 capsule.  Both are good.

  Richard
[/quote]

But how good? I'm tempted to give 'em a whirl just because most of the cheap-but-good electret mics around seem to use the ubiquitous Panasonic caps (not that there's anything necessarily wrong with that), so maybe these are a little bit quieter and/or more transparent. On the other hand, maybe there's not a lot of difference in this price range. I'd love to hear some samples recorded with these.

Dave

[groovon]

I've heard informed opinions speak very highly of the 4060's and 4061's.  A few years back we A/B'd some Audix microphones for Sonic Sense and they sounded very nice, although I haven't heard anything else about that particular brand since then.  You can also occasionally find MBHO mic sets with the actives for $1000 used, which may be your best bet.

There is also this sexy beast here...if you can find Schoeps caps for $1000, which you probably can, and then budget for an external preamp...

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=132711.120

Nice setup, Sparkey. I'm actually getting a Sony D10 this coming week. I doubt I'll ever have anything quite as fancy to plug into it as what you've got there though! Even a pair of 4060s will stretch the budget a bit far.

Cheers
Dave

[Belexes]

I'd look into Church Audio mics before you seal the deal on MM product. CA-14's are very nice.

[groovon]

I'd look into Church Audio mics before you seal the deal on MM product. CA-14's are very nice.

Thanks - yeah I've emailed Chris a couple of times about his mics. They have a lot of fans, and I'd love to hear some controlled listening tests/comps. Maybe I'll have to do some myself. After this foray I've got a feeling I'll end up with more miniature mics than I need(!)

Dave

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

I just recently bought the Nevaton MCE400's. I previously owned the 4060's (>MMA6000).

So far I've run the Nevaton's 2x into my FR2LE. I like the Nevaton's better (not that I didn't love the DPA's)...but even if they cost the same I'd still go with the Nevaton's. Luckily the Nevaton's cost about half as much.

I'll be running the Nevaton > Tinybox > Sony M10.

I'll post some pics once the Tinybox arrives.

[groovon]

Hey, thanks MIKE B - I'll check them out. What do you like about the Nevatons that you think is better than the DPAs?

[PS - Just checking out some of Soundman's MCE400 tracks...]

[nameloc01]

if youre looking for something similiar to DPA omnis..

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-BMC-23

[groovon]

Thanks!

[nameloc01]

Thanks!

if for some reason you end up pulling the trigger on those..make sure to get the proper connectors on them and the proper power  supply (for high spls)..ask Chris Carfagno (the owner) before buying.

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

Hey, thanks MIKE B - I'll check them out. What do you like about the Nevatons that you think is better than the DPAs?

[PS - Just checking out some of Soundman's MCE400 tracks...]

The best I can describe it is a more full sound.

I have a few recordings with them over at cotapers.org

[groovon]

Any opinions out there of the Sennheiser electret (MKE2/4) 'sound', if I can put it like that, and possibly whether you've heard or used the Sennheiser-cap offerings from Mic Madness?

Thanks

[illconditioned]

Any opinions out there of the Sennheiser electret (MKE2/4) 'sound', if I can put it like that, and possibly whether you've heard or used the Sennheiser-cap offerings from Mic Madness?

Thanks

I would rate the sound a moderately detailed, and warm.
It compares quite nicely to the Neumann sound in my opinion.

I've got some samples up on my website, http://Soundmann.com.  The mke2 sound is quite similar to my "ke4" capsules.

By the way, the cardioid (mke40) sound nice too, but are lacking bass.  I don't find that a problem -- most shows have too much bass anyways, but just be aware of that.  But I have never been disappointed in a show with the mke40, it still sounds great, you just don't get hammered with the bass on the recording.  It can also be boosted in post if you really want it there too.

  Richard

[adrianf74]

Any opinions out there of the Sennheiser electret (MKE2/4) 'sound', if I can put it like that, and possibly whether you've heard or used the Sennheiser-cap offerings from Mic Madness?

Thanks

The "best" under-$1000 pair of miniatures is really a "personal preference" scenario.  I liken mics to underwear; some prefer boxers and other briefs and only you can decide what "fits" you best.

I was, at one point, thinking of DPA-4061s/CS HEBs.  Then I got to thinking... is spending 7-to-ten-times the money on a set of mics going to improve my recordings by 7-to-ten-times the quality?  The answer here is "highly unlikely."

I ended up selling my Sound Professionals CMC-8's (AT-933 cards) with battery box.... and replaced it with the following gear: CAFS-OMNI, CA-UBB, CA-14/o, CA-14/c, CA-14 DEAD RATS (for windy days) and a CA-9100 Preamp.  I like what I've heard with the CA-14/o and /c (from DIME and a few other sources).   I was considering the B3's and the Audix Cards but when I started getting into the amount of $$ that I was going to drop, I figured it was better to have some choices to pull from.  At least now, I can pick what I need to run depending on the show I'm at and even the CAFS-OMNI mics, as small as they are, have pulled some decent results with minmal EQing.

[groovon]

Any opinions out there of the Sennheiser electret (MKE2/4) 'sound', if I can put it like that, and possibly whether you've heard or used the Sennheiser-cap offerings from Mic Madness?

Thanks

I would rate the sound a moderately detailed, and warm.
It compares quite nicely to the Neumann sound in my opinion.

I've got some samples up on my website, http://Soundmann.com.  The mke2 sound is quite similar to my "ke4" capsules.

By the way, the cardioid (mke40) sound nice too, but are lacking bass.  I don't find that a problem -- most shows have too much bass anyways, but just be aware of that.  But I have never been disappointed in a show with the mke40, it still sounds great, you just don't get hammered with the bass on the recording.  It can also be boosted in post if you really want it there too.

  Richard

Thanks Richard. I've been listening to your page of concert recordings over the weekend, and am mightily impressed. I did catch the MKE4 cuts in there. It's hard to judge mics 100% though not knowing the mic position, environment, band, PA layout etc. But very worthwhile nevertheless and an extremely valuable piece of work on your part. BTW, the best recordings by far IMO were with the AKG 463s. I'm biased, though!, and I'm guessing those mics were more ideally positioned than many of the others.

Lastly, are there any other available options (besides DIY, which I may eventually try) using the Sennheiser capsules.

On MM -  I came across a negative review of [some other] Mic Madness gear, but from the on-site pics their Sennheiser-cap models look pretty solid and well-finished to me. Have you any experience of them?

cheers!
Dave

[Craig T]

2nd that.  CA-14 cards> ST9100 is about as good as you can get for <$1K.  Not quite "miniature", but in between the dpa 406x and Schoeps.

I'd look into Church Audio mics before you seal the deal on MM product. CA-14's are very nice.

[adrianf74]

2nd that.  CA-14 cards> ST9100 is about as good as you can get for <$1K.  Not quite "miniature", but in between the dpa 406x and Schoeps.

I'd look into Church Audio mics before you seal the deal on MM product. CA-14's are very nice.

That was the reason I went with the ST-9100 and CA-14's.  I'm not gonna find mics that perform that much greater for two-to-three times the cost.  I'm in Toronto, Canada so I have to pay 13% tax on my purchase... but for around $400, I got Dead Rats, CA-UBB (for 007 needs), ST-9100, CA-14/c, and CA-14/o.  It gives me a considerable amount of flexibility depending on what I'm recording.  I also picked up the CAFS-OMNIs about 9 months ago when they were on super special... so make that $500.... even then, I'm gonna be happy with the choice I have to pick from.

I'll add that Chris is building and sending me a newly revised CA-14/c and /o with a smaller membrane for the windscreen.  He said the material is about 20% smaller than the current build without any affect to the sound quality/wind noise, etc.  I have the dead rats for when it's really bad out.

[groovon]

I see your logic, guys, and appreciate the feedback.

I think I'm hooked on the DPA4060 sound though - I haven't yet heard a clip using them that hasn't floored me.

[tcf]

I see your logic, guys, and appreciate the feedback.

I think I'm hooked on the DPA4060 sound though - I haven't yet heard a clip using them that hasn't floored me.

I would definitely second the nevaton mce 400 as well. They haves nice warm sound that still has the necessary detail. Check some samples out. Peace out

[MarkE]

I've used a few different mics over the years for stealthing, those being:

Oade Micro Mics - GREAT SOUND. I like to tape by the stacks, so they couldnt always handle the volumes, but the panasonic caps they use sound nice..
Core Sound Cards- Eh, not bad. Flat sounding, not alot of depth
Church audio CA-11 & 14's - a little too big for my taste with stealthing,  they sounded good. I didnt use them too much because I liked the tone, depth and quality of my.....
Sonic Studios DSM-6S- A little bassy, but I use a rolloff, and "master" the show after recording.. The only downfall of ANY omni in my owpinion is in large halls, not up front, they sound kinda cavernous.. but if youtape in small to midsize clubs, stack tape, the sonics are GREAT ..

I would like to try the microphone madness sennheiser mics, and the Nevaton are great from the stuff I've heard.
Your mileage may vary,
Hope this helps a little
MarkE

[groovon]

Hi Mark. Thanks for your input. Which of the MM Sennh's do you like the look of? I've been trying to call the company all morning; left my number but they don't call me back. They have a 30-day return, anyway, so I'm almost ready to give it a fling...
The Russian mics I'm a bit leery of, though they may sound good - I'd want, for that sort of money, a better potential resale value - like the DPAs.
cheers!
Dave

[Belexes]

I had the MM-HLSC-1's and liked them. However, some on here complained they could not take high SPL's.  I never seem to have that issue, but I was never taping anything that was bone crushing loud at the time.

Another issue with them is said to be iffy bass response, but then opt for the omni's rather than the card's. 

I like the detail of the senn capsules.

[groovon]

Yeah, thanks for the feedback. Guess I'll find out how they sound soon enough, 'cause I ordered a pair today. Cardiods same as you had, 30 day return.
I'm not really worried about them clipping, mostly I'm just recording at jazz clubs and blues jams. Bass response? Well, I guess I'll have to see.
Wondering if they'll run OK off the Sony M-10s' mic power...

PS - thanks very much to all you guys who offered suggestions... which I'm still open to, BTW. There's always more mics to get, as you well know(!)

cheers
Dave

[listener2]

Also, what is the optimal DC input bias voltage for the 4060 cap? In the specs I see only the raw DC input the various DPA adaptors will accept (i.e. 5V to 50V).

Thanks!
Dave

The DPA 4060 mics optimal voltage seems to be right at about 9 volts because the schematic of their XLR phantom power adapter has something like a 8.9v (or something like that, maybe 8.2v or 8.7v) zener diode that essentially clamps and limits the voltage going to the DPA mics at that voltage and no more.  I've built my own battery box using a 9volt battery.  I bought the female microdot jacks from DPA themselves as no one else sells them anywhere that I could find.  The mics work great with the battery box into my Sony M10, Sony D50, Roland R-05 and Edirol R-09 mic inputs.  I would say that the DPA 4060 mics work just fine with 5v to 9v battery power.

[Scooter123]

I was considering getting a pair of 4060s or 4061s. It seems like a no-brainer, and I'll get a pair someday, but it's a big investment right now and there are plenty of times when omnis don't seem the right choice (small clubs, etc).

Actually, I use the DPA Omnis for small clubs exclusively.  Very bright and open sound for use close in.   I got mine at Sound Professionals and had Chris Church make me a battery box. 

[groovon]

Also, what is the optimal DC input bias voltage for the 4060 cap? In the specs I see only the raw DC input the various DPA adaptors will accept (i.e. 5V to 50V).

Thanks!
Dave

The DPA 4060 mics optimal voltage seems to be right at about 9 volts because the schematic of their XLR phantom power adapter has something like a 8.9v (or something like that, maybe 8.2v or 8.7v) zener diode that essentially clamps and limits the voltage going to the DPA mics at that voltage and no more.  I've built my own battery box using a 9volt battery.  I bought the female microdot jacks from DPA themselves as no one else sells them anywhere that I could find.  The mics work great with the battery box into my Sony M10, Sony D50, Roland R-05 and Edirol R-09 mic inputs.  I would say that the DPA 4060 mics work just fine with 5v to 9v battery power.

THANK YOU for the reply! Very nice info to have. Could you link me to the DPA schematics you mentioned? I figured that their XLR converter was a voltage divider with a regulating zener. I'd still like to see it though, for the pinouts.
I heard that about those connectors, only available as DPA parts. Bummer at $50 each! But better than hacking the original cables, I guess. I'm gonna try and get some 4060s soon!

Cheers
Dave

[MarkE]

Hi Mark. Thanks for your input. Which of the MM Sennh's do you like the look of? I've been trying to call the company all morning; left my number but they don't call me back. They have a 30-day return, anyway, so I'm almost ready to give it a fling...
The Russian mics I'm a bit leery of, though they may sound good - I'd want, for that sort of money, a better potential resale value - like the DPAs.
cheers!
Dave

The  MM-HLSC-1 that Belexes was speaking of.. They sound nice.

[groovon]

[/quote]

The  MM-HLSC-1 that Belexes was speaking of.. They sound nice.
[/quote]

MM catalogs two similar-looking cardioids, HLSC-1 and HLSC-2. I think the only difference is the -2 is supplied with clips? I hope so, I ordered a pair of the -1s.
I'm extremely curious how good they'll sound. I haven't bought electret mics since I was very young and extremely poor, and couldn't afford 'real' mics, and I remember always being disappointed with the extreme lack of bass response from cheap Japanese electret mics. Many years later when I could finally afford AKG C460s, 414s etc, I felt like I'd reached mic Nirvana.
Anyway, I'll see pretty soon if I feel I need to go the full monty, to DPAs etc... knowing me, i'd say there's a good chance I will not be happy until I reach DPA land... 

[groovon]

I was considering getting a pair of 4060s or 4061s. It seems like a no-brainer, and I'll get a pair someday, but it's a big investment right now and there are plenty of times when omnis don't seem the right choice (small clubs, etc).

Actually, I use the DPA Omnis for small clubs exclusively.  Very bright and open sound for use close in.   I got mine at Sound Professionals and had Chris Church make me a battery box.

I'm definitely getting a pair of 4060s ASAP (one reason I didn't go for the MM omnis). Just from various mp3 clips, I can't believe the transparency and openness I've heard from recordings made w/ 4060s. I'm hooked, and it's gonna cost me(!) - I better get to work!

(PS - Sound Professionals doesn't seem to list DPA anymore.)

cheers!

[adrianf74]

MM catalogs two similar-looking cardioids, HLSC-1 and HLSC-2. I think the only difference is the -2 is supplied with clips? I hope so, I ordered a pair of the -1s.
I'm extremely curious how good they'll sound. I haven't bought electret mics since I was very young and extremely poor, and couldn't afford 'real' mics, and I remember always being disappointed with the extreme lack of bass response from cheap Japanese electret mics. Many years later when I could finally afford AKG C460s, 414s etc, I felt like I'd reached mic Nirvana.
Anyway, I'll see pretty soon if I feel I need to go the full monty, to DPAs etc... knowing me, i'd say there's a good chance I will not be happy until I reach DPA land... 

I think you've answered your own question.  I think there's a general consensus that DPA 406x's are the way to go for the "best" mics under $1k.  If money is no object, then these might be your best bet.  I think what I (and others) were trying to state is that there are good and bad recordings made with ALL mics.  Whether the extra $500-$800 is worth the DPA's is subject to personal taste.  (And like I've said before, mics are like underwear... some prefer boxers, others prefer briefs).  I'd kill to buy a pair of DPA's, however, the extra money - to me anyhow - is better spent on other expense. 

Enjoy your DPA's when you get 'em.

[groovon]

Thanks Adrian.

Just found:

Good thread on the MM/Sennh. cardioids here: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=126169.msg1684749#msg1684749


Some great concert tapes made using MM HLSCs, and some using 4060s here: http://www.dutchtaper.com/gear.php

Listening to MMs vs 4060s in these (in some cases same venue, same band), the 4060s can seem almost too bright and bass-hyped, and in direct comparison, the MM HLSCs maybe just a little lacklustre. Not a final judgement by any means....

The HLSCs here come across as quite detailed and very well balanced: http://www.archive.org/details/kd32006-07-27.flac

(I hope my etiquette is OK in posting these links, I'm a little new to this. Admirable work from these recordists, so many thanks.)

Dave

[adrianf74]

(Listening to MMs here, vs 4060s (in some cases same venue, same band), the 4060s can seem almost too bright, whereas in comparison the MM HLSCs seem a bit lacklustre(?) Not a final judgement by any means.)

You're most welcome.

I always say, record what you record, "fix it in post", and share it. 

If I played you some of the shows I've recorded over the years (including using the AT-933/C), you'd be shocked hearing the "raw" recording.  Over 90% of the time, I've had to do some minor tweaking in post.  Either rolling off a little bass, bumping the low end a little bit or tweaking the mids-to-highs.  Sometimes I've had to perform surgery due to technical issues or a bad mix in the venue.  Most people will say a little post work goes a long way; others will say NOT to touch your recording.  What I do is I FLAC the RAW file after I'm done tweaking and keep both my "final" version and the original in case I ever want to "go back."  Requires a little more disk room but it's well worth it.

On a side note, I used the CMC-8's (AT-933/C) to a Sharp MiniDisc for Kraftwerk back in '03 and another taper used 4061's to his DAT.  My recording had better overall clarity and he was standing about four rows away from me.   So, the more expensive mic doesn't always equate to the "better mic" at the end of the day.  Let your ears be the judge and get what's best for your needs.   

[groovon]

(Listening to MMs here, vs 4060s (in some cases same venue, same band), the 4060s can seem almost too bright, whereas in comparison the MM HLSCs seem a bit lacklustre(?) Not a final judgement by any means.)

You're most welcome.

I always say, record what you record, "fix it in post", and share it. 

If I played you some of the shows I've recorded over the years (including using the AT-933/C), you'd be shocked hearing the "raw" recording.  Over 90% of the time, I've had to do some minor tweaking in post.  Either rolling off a little bass, bumping the low end a little bit or tweaking the mids-to-highs.  Sometimes I've had to perform surgery due to technical issues or a bad mix in the venue.  Most people will say a little post work goes a long way; others will say NOT to touch your recording.  What I do is I FLAC the RAW file after I'm done tweaking and keep both my "final" version and the original in case I ever want to "go back."  Requires a little more disk room but it's well worth it.

On a side note, I used the CMC-8's (AT-933/C) to a Sharp MiniDisc for Kraftwerk back in '03 and another taper used 4061's to his DAT.  My recording had better overall clarity and he was standing about four rows away from me.   So, the more expensive mic doesn't always equate to the "better mic" at the end of the day.  Let your ears be the judge and get what's best for your needs.   

Hi Adrian - sorry, I think maybe that came out the wrong way. I added to that post, as I wanted to thank you guys for the great recordings we use as comps sometimes, and the work of posting them - it's always appreciated.

cheers!
Dave

[Gutbucket]

..Over 90% of the time, I've had to do some minor tweaking in post.  Either rolling off a little bass, bumping the low end a little bit or tweaking the mids-to-highs.  Sometimes I've had to perform surgery due to technical issues or a bad mix in the venue.  Most people will say a little post work goes a long way; others will say NOT to touch your recording.  What I do is I FLAC the RAW file after I'm done tweaking and keep both my "final" version and the original in case I ever want to "go back."  Requires a little more disk room but it's well worth it.

Same. 

I'll add that an important (primary) difference for me between various mics is how easily I can correct the sound of the recording afterward, as I find recordings made with some mics much easier to fix than others.  That's a big deal since we're rarely able to monitor well enough to tweak things perfectly in the field.  Like Adrian, I usually make some sort of eq correction on almost all of them.  A good number of those recordings I personally consider totally unacceptable without eq correction, yet many of those shine up nicely with a some critical eq work. 

I find that those corrections are relatively easy to make on recordings I've made with 4060s, even if I need to use somewhat radical EQ settings.  It does take time, patient listening, and acurate monitoring to get it right in a way that translates to other systems.  But those mics seem to have the qualities needed to support that when it's necessary.  With some mics, I just get frustrated trying to eq the recording to something I find acceptable.  I'm not sure if its the dynamic range, resonances in response, or the general transparency of a particular mic that gives recordings made with it more or less of an ability to 'take eq', but it's a big factor for me in how useable that mic will be.  It's honestly more important than the raw sound itself, although both go hand-in-hand IMO. 

In light of that, a useful techinque for me in choosing mics is to take music samples recorded with the various mics (both good and bad sounding) and try and work them into something better sounding.  It takes a good bit of trial and error time and effort, but helps me to determine if I can get the qualities I'm looking for out of the recordings.  Doing that is more useful to me than just listening to most raw recordings because of all the variables in the way we record.

[groovon]

Good feedback, thanks!

[guysonic]

Since just about every make and type of miniature mic has already been suggested, like to help complete the list with my own mic seeming not so well known to TS posters, but is within stated budget, and has available easily accessed recordings of all types of venues for knowing about performance without requiring purchase.

Advantage of DSSM mics is a fully natural uncolored stereo-surround characteristic leaving full choice to color anyway you like in post.  For example, if desiring to sound like a very colored mic like a DPA-4060 series, easy to do by boosting mid highs, reducing the bass a bit, and maybe adding a hint of harshness with a few other post edit effects. 

Another advantage is full performance from direct Sony PCM-D50 or M10 decks making it the most compact 2-piece recording package in existance.


See retail:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=83254.0

Recordings of every type of venue at: www.sonicstudios.com/mp3_2slp.htm

[groovon]

Thanks for your input, guysonic. I'm still open to suggestions.

Dave

[Belexes]

like to help complete the list with my own mic seeming not so well known to TS posters[/img]

This mic is well known, but not often suggested here. So take that for what it's worth.

[groovon]

" ... For example, if desiring to sound like a very colored mic like a DPA-4060 series, easy to do by boosting mid highs, reducing the bass a bit, and maybe adding a hint of harshness with a few other post edit effects. ..."

@guysonic: That part sounds suspiciously like it might be 'tongue-in-cheek'. Or I'd have expected some comeback from offended DPA fans!

Dave

[illconditioned]

" ... For example, if desiring to sound like a very colored mic like a DPA-4060 series, easy to do by boosting mid highs, reducing the bass a bit, and maybe adding a hint of harshness with a few other post edit effects. ..."

@guysonic: That part sounds suspiciously like it might be 'tongue-in-cheek'. Or I'd have expected some comeback from offended DPA fans!

Dave

Exactly.  I would not call DPA "colored".  What I do notice with them is some *distortion* on the high end, but not "color".  They are a very realistic sounding mic with tons of detail.

  Richard

[Church-Audio]

Since just about every make and type of miniature mic has already been suggested, like to help complete the list with my own mic seeming not so well known to TS posters, but is within stated budget, and has available easily accessed recordings of all types of venues for knowing about performance without requiring purchase.

Advantage of DSSM mics is a fully natural uncolored stereo-surround characteristic leaving full choice to color anyway you like in post.  For example, if desiring to sound like a very colored mic like a DPA-4060 series, easy to do by boosting mid highs, reducing the bass a bit, and maybe adding a hint of harshness with a few other post edit effects. 

Another advantage is full performance from direct Sony PCM-D50 or M10 decks making it the most compact 2-piece recording package in existance.


See retail:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=83254.0

Recordings of every type of venue at: www.sonicstudios.com/mp3_2slp.htm

Guy maybe you would get more sales by fluffing less and helping more? Seems to have worked for me. As for your DSM mics.. I like the way the sound actually.... I also like the DPA mics.. Saying they are harsh is total BS the 4090 measurement mic uses the 4060 capsule I have also compared it to my 4007 measurement mic and found them VERY FLAT and neutral sounding..... I have been using DPA 4060  mics since they were introduced. for doing close micing and for distant source micing.. And never found them harsh. I make mics for a living and consider both DPA and your DSM mics to be something to aspire to. So fluff less help more....

[illconditioned]

Since just about every make and type of miniature mic has already been suggested, like to help complete the list with my own mic seeming not so well known to TS posters, but is within stated budget, and has available easily accessed recordings of all types of venues for knowing about performance without requiring purchase.

Advantage of DSSM mics is a fully natural uncolored stereo-surround characteristic leaving full choice to color anyway you like in post.  For example, if desiring to sound like a very colored mic like a DPA-4060 series, easy to do by boosting mid highs, reducing the bass a bit, and maybe adding a hint of harshness with a few other post edit effects. 

Another advantage is full performance from direct Sony PCM-D50 or M10 decks making it the most compact 2-piece recording package in existance.


See retail:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=83254.0

Recordings of every type of venue at: www.sonicstudios.com/mp3_2slp.htm

Guy maybe you would get more sales by fluffing less and helping more? Seems to have worked for me. As for your DSM mics.. I like the way the sound actually.... I also like the DPA mics.. Saying they are harsh is total BS the 4090 measurement mic uses the 4060 capsule I have also compared it to my 4007 measurement mic and found them VERY FLAT and neutral sounding..... I have been using DPA 4060  mics since they were introduced. for doing close micing and for distant source micing.. And never found them harsh. I make mics for a living and consider both DPA and your DSM mics to be something to aspire to. So fluff less help more....

Oops.  That may have been me that said "harsh".  I still stand by that.  I think DPA 4060 are excellent for measurement, and probably for foley too, but I have never liked the sound of them for music.  I really wish I liked them, since the quality and consistency of these things are great.  And I like the company and service too.  But I still prefer Countryman B3 or Nevaton MCE400 for recording music.  As I said, I really do wish DPA 406x sounded better, because I've had consistency/ matching problems with other options.

OK, here is a theory about why the DPA sound the way they do: The rectangular diaphragm does not have the same tension that a classic (cylindrical) one does.  That makes it more sensitive, but also open to high-frequency distortion.  Just an idea.

OK, back to Guysonic's mics now...

  Richard

[Gutbucket]

OK, here is a theory about why the DPA sound the way they do: The rectangular diaphragm does not have the same tension that a classic (cylindrical) one does.  That makes it more sensitive, but also open to high-frequency distortion.

I'm curious Richard, do you hear the same distortion in Chris's CA-1? I haven't had an opportunity to really use those yet, but I hope to this weekend and run a comp on some unamplified acoustic jazz.

[slight thread hijack]
I've a technical question which you or Chris may be able to help me with about correctly setting up part of the comp:
I plan to compare two pairs of mics (4060 and CA-1), each into identical CA-UGLY preamps and R-09 recorders.  That part is straightforward.

But I also like compare recording the 4060s to a Tascam DR2d as well as the R-09.  Can I simply spit the line level output of that CA-UGLY with a 'Y' cable into the line-in of both of those decks? Or might I compromise things impedance-wise feeding the two recorders simultaneously from the single preamp?  I’m trying to avoid having to run two separate comps by running the three recorders simultaneously.


[back on topic]
On the high-frequency range of the 4060, where some perceive a harshness or slight resonant distortion:  For me, it's the detail and clarity of the 4060 that makes it such a valuable omni for music recording. It's sort of a difuse field respose. Every recording situation is somewhat is different, but on playback of the raw files more often than not I find myself shelving up the treble slightly, primarily to boost the upper-mid / lower-treble range a bit, and perhaps shelving down the bass a few dB for amplified material.  If the mics were very close to a particularly bright source like cymbals, or if the FOH mix was overly bright, I sometimes EQ a slight, tailored notch around 10kHz or 15kHz that smoothes that response yet retains the clear detail, air and shimmer.

[aaronji]

I am curious what recording conditions bring out the high frequency distortion?  Personally, I haven't experienced it.  That might be due to the music I usually record with them (jazz) or the venues where I typically record (small, good acoustics, reasonable volumes)?  I really like the 4060s: extremely accurate and detailed.  Amazing, for instance, how well they can capture an acoustic bass compared to some of the other small mics I have tried...

[Gutbucket]

I think it is primarily dependent on the subjective hearing preference of the listener.  Some people report being bothered by a percieved high-frequency peak or resonance or whatever and others not at all.  I very rarely notice any more of a problem up there than elsewhere else in the frequency range.   Could just be my idiosyncratic ears, or that I record similar music in similar rooms to what you record.  I've always wondered if what some are hearing could be due to the helmoltz resonance which the grids use to provide their boost or even a similar cavity resonance of the bare capsule half-burried in the body tube, producing a 'ringing' at certain high-frequencies due to stored energy.  Just another speculation. It doesn't bother me so I don't worry about it too much.  Those that it does bother tend to choose other mics.

Guysonic, what are your thoughts on this?  I know you modifed some of these as prototype DSM capsules years ago and decided it was too much of a hassle and risk of damaging the capsule.  I assume you removed the portion of the hollow body tube in which the capsule is half-burried and created a smoother surrounding structure similar to your standard DSM design.  Curious about your thoughts (I know you feel similar to Richard about the subjective sound of these, at least in their 'unmodified' form).

[Church-Audio]

Since just about every make and type of miniature mic has already been suggested, like to help complete the list with my own mic seeming not so well known to TS posters, but is within stated budget, and has available easily accessed recordings of all types of venues for knowing about performance without requiring purchase.

Advantage of DSSM mics is a fully natural uncolored stereo-surround characteristic leaving full choice to color anyway you like in post.  For example, if desiring to sound like a very colored mic like a DPA-4060 series, easy to do by boosting mid highs, reducing the bass a bit, and maybe adding a hint of harshness with a few other post edit effects. 

Another advantage is full performance from direct Sony PCM-D50 or M10 decks making it the most compact 2-piece recording package in existance.


See retail:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=83254.0

Recordings of every type of venue at: www.sonicstudios.com/mp3_2slp.htm

Guy maybe you would get more sales by fluffing less and helping more? Seems to have worked for me. As for your DSM mics.. I like the way the sound actually.... I also like the DPA mics.. Saying they are harsh is total BS the 4090 measurement mic uses the 4060 capsule I have also compared it to my 4007 measurement mic and found them VERY FLAT and neutral sounding..... I have been using DPA 4060  mics since they were introduced. for doing close micing and for distant source micing.. And never found them harsh. I make mics for a living and consider both DPA and your DSM mics to be something to aspire to. So fluff less help more....

Oops.  That may have been me that said "harsh".  I still stand by that.  I think DPA 4060 are excellent for measurement, and probably for foley too, but I have never liked the sound of them for music.  I really wish I liked them, since the quality and consistency of these things are great.  And I like the company and service too.  But I still prefer Countryman B3 or Nevaton MCE400 for recording music.  As I said, I really do wish DPA 406x sounded better, because I've had consistency/ matching problems with other options.

OK, here is a theory about why the DPA sound the way they do: The rectangular diaphragm does not have the same tension that a classic (cylindrical) one does.  That makes it more sensitive, but also open to high-frequency distortion.  Just an idea.

OK, back to Guysonic's mics now...

  Richard

No not your words at all....There is nothing further from the truth using the words "harsh" to describe the sound of the 4060 is not accurate, at least to my ears. This was a slam against the DPA 4060 to be sure.

Guysonic "For example, if desiring to sound like a very colored mic like a DPA-4060 series, easy to do by boosting mid highs, reducing the bass a bit, and maybe adding a hint of harshness with a few other post edit effects"

[Gutbucket]

Chris, not sure if you saw this below.. any thoughts on potential issues driving two decks with one CA-UGLY?

[slight thread hijack]
I've a technical question which you or Chris may be able to help me with about correctly setting up part of the comp:
I plan to compare two pairs of mics (4060 and CA-1), each into identical CA-UGLY preamps and R-09 recorders.  That part is straightforward.

But I also like compare recording the 4060s to a Tascam DR2d as well as the R-09.  Can I simply spit the line level output of that CA-UGLY with a 'Y' cable into the line-in of both of those decks? Or might I compromise things impedance-wise feeding the two recorders simultaneously from the single preamp?  I’m trying to avoid having to run two separate comps by running the three recorders simultaneously.

[Church-Audio]

Chris, not sure if you saw this below.. any thoughts on potential issues driving two decks with one CA-UGLY?

[slight thread hijack]
I've a technical question which you or Chris may be able to help me with about correctly setting up part of the comp:
I plan to compare two pairs of mics (4060 and CA-1), each into identical CA-UGLY preamps and R-09 recorders.  That part is straightforward.

But I also like compare recording the 4060s to a Tascam DR2d as well as the R-09.  Can I simply spit the line level output of that CA-UGLY with a 'Y' cable into the line-in of both of those decks? Or might I compromise things impedance-wise feeding the two recorders simultaneously from the single preamp?  I’m trying to avoid having to run two separate comps by running the three recorders simultaneously.

I think the best way to split the signal if you must.. Is to take the audio output of the first recorder and send it into the line input of the second.. The two recorders would actually reduce the load because both recorders would be in parallel, that being said i dont know what the interaction would be between the two recorders. I simply could not give you an answer with out having the two recorders and the time to analyze the the signal chain.

[Gutbucket]

Thanks.  I think I better do a seperate comp to limit the variables.

[Church-Audio]

Thanks.  I think I better do a seperate comp to limit the variables.

I think you are correct. In the end its going to be the easiest way. To do what you want to do.

Chris

[Church-Audio]

2nd that.  CA-14 cards> ST9100 is about as good as you can get for <$1K.  Not quite "miniature", but in between the dpa 406x and Schoeps.

I'd look into Church Audio mics before you seal the deal on MM product. CA-14's are very nice.

That was the reason I went with the ST-9100 and CA-14's.  I'm not gonna find mics that perform that much greater for two-to-three times the cost.  I'm in Toronto, Canada so I have to pay 13% tax on my purchase... but for around $400, I got Dead Rats, CA-UBB (for 007 needs), ST-9100, CA-14/c, and CA-14/o.  It gives me a considerable amount of flexibility depending on what I'm recording.  I also picked up the CAFS-OMNIs about 9 months ago when they were on super special... so make that $500.... even then, I'm gonna be happy with the choice I have to pick from.

I'll add that Chris is building and sending me a newly revised CA-14/c and /o with a smaller membrane for the windscreen.  He said the material is about 20% smaller than the current build without any affect to the sound quality/wind noise, etc.  I have the dead rats for when it's really bad out.

The smaller windscreen is actually more susceptible to wind then the bigger one.. That only stands to reason.. All ca-14 mics ordered as of next week will have the new smaller windscreen on them. That way customers can order dead rats if they need them if they dont they can use the smaller windscreen indoors with the no real loss in performance due to the lack of wind.

Chris

[adrianf74]

The smaller windscreen is actually more susceptible to wind then the bigger one.. That only stands to reason.. All ca-14 mics ordered as of next week will have the new smaller windscreen on them. That way customers can order dead rats if they need them if they dont they can use the smaller windscreen indoors with the no real loss in performance due to the lack of wind.

Looking forward to mine, Chris, when you get them done.

It's perfect sense that they're more susceptible to wind with a smaller windscreen on them, but if I was at the venues I was at over the weekend (Copps and the ACC), I would've preferred to have the smaller windscreens if I was indoors.  If I had to "forego" the Dead Rats because of a pseudo 007 situation, I'd likely just use the CA-14/O and be done with it.

And speaking of windscreens... is there any sort of badboy for the CAFS?    I'll shoot you a PM.

[oivindi]

Out of curiosity: How's the s/n ratio on the mics mentioned in this thread?

I am looking for miniature mics for stealth field recording (or at least stealth-ish), but I am unsure how they will handle quiet and quiet-ish recordings?

I've heard the DPA 4060 has a bit of self-noise.

[Gutbucket]

4060 specs from the DPA site:

Sensitivity, nominal, ±3 dB at 1 kHz:  20 mV/Pa; -34 dB re. 1 V/Pa
Equivalent noise level A-weighted:  Typ. 23 dB(A) re. 20 µPa (max. 26 dB(A))
Equiv. noise level ITU-R BS.468-4:  Typ. 35 dB (max. 38 dB) S/N ratio, re. 1 kHz at 1 Pa (94 dB SPL):  71 dB(A)
S/N ratio, re. 1 kHz at 1 Pa (94 dB SPL):  68 dB(A)
Total harmonic distortion (THD):  < 1 % THD up to 123 dB SPL peak; < 1 % THD up to 120 dB SPL RMS sine
Dynamic range:  Typ. 100 dB
Max. SPL, peak before clipping:  134 dB
Output impedance:  30 – 40 ohm

As you probably know, low self-noise is a challenge for all super small diaphram capsules.  The 4060's self noise certainly isn't as low most 1/2" diaphram mics, but that has never been a problem for me on any music recordings I've made with them, including quiet chamber music, hugely dynamic symphonic material and some ecclectic modern composer pieces with sounds that verge on the very edge of audibility.  In every case, the room's noise floor was well above the mic's self noise.  The only time I've noticed it at all is on some very low level nature recordings that required extreme amounts of gain.

[edit- I've not used the less sensitive 4061, which some have reported to be noiser.  DPA's specs seem to confirm that]:
Sensitivity, nominal, ±3 dB at 1 kHz:  6 mV/Pa; -44 dB re. 1 V/Pa
Equivalent noise level A-weighted:  Typ. 26 dB(A) re. 20 µPa (max. 28 dB(A))
Equiv. noise level ITU-R BS.468-4:  Typ. 38 dB (max. 40 dB)
S/N ratio, re. 1 kHz at 1 Pa (94 dB SPL):  68 dB(A)
Total harmonic distortion (THD):  < 1 % THD up to 123 dB SPL peak; < 1 % THD up to 120 dB SPL RMS sine
Dynamic range:  Typ. 97 dB
Max. SPL, peak before clipping:  144 dB
Output impedance:  30 – 40 ohm

[guysonic]

Out of curiosity: How's the s/n ratio on the mics mentioned in this thread?

I am looking for miniature mics for stealth field recording (or at least stealth-ish), but I am unsure how they will handle quiet and quiet-ish recordings?

I've heard the DPA 4060 has a bit of self-noise.

My DSM-1S/H model is the lowest noise (by at least 5 dB lower) compared to most all other smallest capsules including the DPA-4060 series.   
99.9% of the recording samples using this model on my site are totally raw, and not given post noise or any effects editing treatment; see www.sonicstudios.com/mp3.htm looking for gear notes showing DSM-1S/M was the mic model used for making a particular recording.   

Compare my posted raw recordings with other suggested mics raw recordings deciding for yourself which consistently have the desired uncolored sound and low noise performance.

Also excellent for being a most versatile nature/ambient mic is the DSM-6S/EH model using a different capsule with higher self noise, and +12 dB higher loudness handling over the more conservative ~108 dB SPL DSM-1S/H rating

Maybe pay a visit to Aaron Ximm's site containing the many of his natural/ambient sound compositions done using mostly DSM-6S/EH and occasionally the DSM-1S/H model mic. 

The recording page of a favorite used the most versatile, but higher noise DSM-6S/EH model for doing this award winning project a few years ago; see http://www.quietamerican.org/related_annapurna.html
The 53 meg project recording is downloaded from here: http://www.quietamerican.org/download/disc-anna/annapurna.mp3

[WiFiJeff]

My experience with the DPA4060s is similar to Gutbucket's.  I used the DSMs for a while before switching, they are very nice mics, but I've never looked back since the change to the 4060s, which are absolutely perfect for the classical stuff I record, from loud orchestral to very quiet guitar or harpsichord.  When I do four track, I use the DPA4099s (cardioid) with 4063s, these last are omnis that run on lower voltage direct from the Sonosax R84, both of these mics are slightly noisier than the 4060s, but it is never an issue, as room noise is above anything the mic's self-noise can kick into the mix.

Jeff

[oivindi]

Thanks for the replies - DPA4060 certainly sound intriguing.

Should I use a pre-amp with these? I was thinking it would be nice to use a pair of 4060s with my R09-HR, but I also have a FR2-LE. Any suggestions?

[Gutbucket]

All of these mics need power to operate.  I think Guysonic's and Church-Audio's mics can run off the plug in power of small recorders.  They'll correct me if I'm wrong I'm sure.  Still, most of these will perform better with a dedicated battery box or preamp that provides a bit more voltage, especially at higher SPL levels.  The DPAs will not run off lower voltage plug-in power from a recorder and require a battery box or preamp (a possible exception is the low voltage 4063 version that Jeff uses for that very reason, but they are not very common around here).  If you are recording anything where the self-noise of the mic could be even close to being an issue you'll probably want a preamp since the higher gain settings on handheld recorders typically get noisy.

The 4060s can use the DPA preamp designed for them (MMA6000) or many other smaller preamps such as those sold by Guysonic, Church-Audio, Niant, Sound Professionals, Core-Sound and others.  There is the DPA micro-dot connector to deal with, either by re-terminating the mic to something more common, by building the preamp with micro-dots, or by making an adaptor cable.  You can also power them with a recorder or preamp that provides phantom power by using DPA XLR to microdot powering adapters (or building your own, circuit diagram is avaiable).

I use Church-Audio CA-UGLY preamps with my 4060s because they are the smallest avaiable and seem perform comparably to the MMA6000 to my ears.

[guysonic]

NO battery box required.  DSM mics attain fullest loudnes handling performance being powered directly by as-purchased stock Sony PCM-D50/M10 decks, and same full performance for Edirol R-09HR with MOD-4 installed also eliminating Edirol's PIP mic powering noise.