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Author Topic: Best under-$1000-pair miniatures?  (Read 17435 times)

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Offline groovon

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Re: Best under-$1000-pair miniatures?
« Reply #45 on: July 08, 2010, 12:26:33 AM »
Good feedback, thanks!

Offline guysonic

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Re: Best under-$1000-pair miniatures?
« Reply #46 on: July 09, 2010, 01:13:12 AM »
Since just about every make and type of miniature mic has already been suggested, like to help complete the list with my own mic seeming not so well known to TS posters, but is within stated budget, and has available easily accessed recordings of all types of venues for knowing about performance without requiring purchase.

Advantage of DSSM mics is a fully natural uncolored stereo-surround characteristic leaving full choice to color anyway you like in post.  For example, if desiring to sound like a very colored mic like a DPA-4060 series, easy to do by boosting mid highs, reducing the bass a bit, and maybe adding a hint of harshness with a few other post edit effects. 

Another advantage is full performance from direct Sony PCM-D50 or M10 decks making it the most compact 2-piece recording package in existance.


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http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=83254.0

Recordings of every type of venue at: www.sonicstudios.com/mp3_2slp.htm


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Offline groovon

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Re: Best under-$1000-pair miniatures?
« Reply #47 on: July 09, 2010, 02:15:46 AM »
Thanks for your input, guysonic. I'm still open to suggestions.

Dave

Offline Belexes

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Re: Best under-$1000-pair miniatures?
« Reply #48 on: July 09, 2010, 09:58:04 AM »
like to help complete the list with my own mic seeming not so well known to TS posters[/img]

This mic is well known, but not often suggested here. So take that for what it's worth.
Busman Audio BSC1-K1/K2/K3/K4 > HiHo Silver XLR's > Deck TBD

CA-14 (c,o)/MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod)/AT853(4.7k mod)(c,o,h,sc)/CAFS (o)/CA-1 (o) > CA-9100 (V. 4.1)/CA-9200/CA-UBB > Sony PCM-D50/Sony PCM-M10

Offline groovon

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Re: Best under-$1000-pair miniatures?
« Reply #49 on: July 09, 2010, 01:00:53 PM »

" ... For example, if desiring to sound like a very colored mic like a DPA-4060 series, easy to do by boosting mid highs, reducing the bass a bit, and maybe adding a hint of harshness with a few other post edit effects. ..."


@guysonic: That part sounds suspiciously like it might be 'tongue-in-cheek'. Or I'd have expected some comeback from offended DPA fans!

Dave

Offline illconditioned

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Re: Best under-$1000-pair miniatures?
« Reply #50 on: July 09, 2010, 01:19:47 PM »

" ... For example, if desiring to sound like a very colored mic like a DPA-4060 series, easy to do by boosting mid highs, reducing the bass a bit, and maybe adding a hint of harshness with a few other post edit effects. ..."


@guysonic: That part sounds suspiciously like it might be 'tongue-in-cheek'. Or I'd have expected some comeback from offended DPA fans!

Dave
Exactly.  I would not call DPA "colored".  What I do notice with them is some *distortion* on the high end, but not "color".  They are a very realistic sounding mic with tons of detail.

  Richard
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Best under-$1000-pair miniatures?
« Reply #51 on: July 09, 2010, 02:01:34 PM »
Since just about every make and type of miniature mic has already been suggested, like to help complete the list with my own mic seeming not so well known to TS posters, but is within stated budget, and has available easily accessed recordings of all types of venues for knowing about performance without requiring purchase.

Advantage of DSSM mics is a fully natural uncolored stereo-surround characteristic leaving full choice to color anyway you like in post.  For example, if desiring to sound like a very colored mic like a DPA-4060 series, easy to do by boosting mid highs, reducing the bass a bit, and maybe adding a hint of harshness with a few other post edit effects. 

Another advantage is full performance from direct Sony PCM-D50 or M10 decks making it the most compact 2-piece recording package in existance.


See retail:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=83254.0

Recordings of every type of venue at: www.sonicstudios.com/mp3_2slp.htm

Guy maybe you would get more sales by fluffing less and helping more? Seems to have worked for me. As for your DSM mics.. I like the way the sound actually.... I also like the DPA mics.. Saying they are harsh is total BS the 4090 measurement mic uses the 4060 capsule I have also compared it to my 4007 measurement mic and found them VERY FLAT and neutral sounding..... I have been using DPA 4060  mics since they were introduced. for doing close micing and for distant source micing.. And never found them harsh. I make mics for a living and consider both DPA and your DSM mics to be something to aspire to. So fluff less help more....
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Offline illconditioned

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Re: Best under-$1000-pair miniatures?
« Reply #52 on: July 09, 2010, 02:11:25 PM »
Since just about every make and type of miniature mic has already been suggested, like to help complete the list with my own mic seeming not so well known to TS posters, but is within stated budget, and has available easily accessed recordings of all types of venues for knowing about performance without requiring purchase.

Advantage of DSSM mics is a fully natural uncolored stereo-surround characteristic leaving full choice to color anyway you like in post.  For example, if desiring to sound like a very colored mic like a DPA-4060 series, easy to do by boosting mid highs, reducing the bass a bit, and maybe adding a hint of harshness with a few other post edit effects. 

Another advantage is full performance from direct Sony PCM-D50 or M10 decks making it the most compact 2-piece recording package in existance.


See retail:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=83254.0

Recordings of every type of venue at: www.sonicstudios.com/mp3_2slp.htm

Guy maybe you would get more sales by fluffing less and helping more? Seems to have worked for me. As for your DSM mics.. I like the way the sound actually.... I also like the DPA mics.. Saying they are harsh is total BS the 4090 measurement mic uses the 4060 capsule I have also compared it to my 4007 measurement mic and found them VERY FLAT and neutral sounding..... I have been using DPA 4060  mics since they were introduced. for doing close micing and for distant source micing.. And never found them harsh. I make mics for a living and consider both DPA and your DSM mics to be something to aspire to. So fluff less help more....

Oops.  That may have been me that said "harsh".  I still stand by that.  I think DPA 4060 are excellent for measurement, and probably for foley too, but I have never liked the sound of them for music.  I really wish I liked them, since the quality and consistency of these things are great.  And I like the company and service too.  But I still prefer Countryman B3 or Nevaton MCE400 for recording music.  As I said, I really do wish DPA 406x sounded better, because I've had consistency/ matching problems with other options.

OK, here is a theory about why the DPA sound the way they do: The rectangular diaphragm does not have the same tension that a classic (cylindrical) one does.  That makes it more sensitive, but also open to high-frequency distortion.  Just an idea.

OK, back to Guysonic's mics now...

  Richard
Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

Sample recordings at: http://www.soundmann.com.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Best under-$1000-pair miniatures?
« Reply #53 on: July 09, 2010, 04:06:23 PM »
OK, here is a theory about why the DPA sound the way they do: The rectangular diaphragm does not have the same tension that a classic (cylindrical) one does.  That makes it more sensitive, but also open to high-frequency distortion.

I'm curious Richard, do you hear the same distortion in Chris's CA-1? I haven't had an opportunity to really use those yet, but I hope to this weekend and run a comp on some unamplified acoustic jazz.

[slight thread hijack]
I've a technical question which you or Chris may be able to help me with about correctly setting up part of the comp:
I plan to compare two pairs of mics (4060 and CA-1), each into identical CA-UGLY preamps and R-09 recorders.  That part is straightforward.

But I also like compare recording the 4060s to a Tascam DR2d as well as the R-09.  Can I simply spit the line level output of that CA-UGLY with a 'Y' cable into the line-in of both of those decks? Or might I compromise things impedance-wise feeding the two recorders simultaneously from the single preamp?  I’m trying to avoid having to run two separate comps by running the three recorders simultaneously.


[back on topic]

On the high-frequency range of the 4060, where some perceive a harshness or slight resonant distortion:  For me, it's the detail and clarity of the 4060 that makes it such a valuable omni for music recording. It's sort of a difuse field respose. Every recording situation is somewhat is different, but on playback of the raw files more often than not I find myself shelving up the treble slightly, primarily to boost the upper-mid / lower-treble range a bit, and perhaps shelving down the bass a few dB for amplified material.  If the mics were very close to a particularly bright source like cymbals, or if the FOH mix was overly bright, I sometimes EQ a slight, tailored notch around 10kHz or 15kHz that smoothes that response yet retains the clear detail, air and shimmer.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Online aaronji

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Re: Best under-$1000-pair miniatures?
« Reply #54 on: July 09, 2010, 04:33:05 PM »
I am curious what recording conditions bring out the high frequency distortion?  Personally, I haven't experienced it.  That might be due to the music I usually record with them (jazz) or the venues where I typically record (small, good acoustics, reasonable volumes)?  I really like the 4060s: extremely accurate and detailed.  Amazing, for instance, how well they can capture an acoustic bass compared to some of the other small mics I have tried...

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Best under-$1000-pair miniatures?
« Reply #55 on: July 09, 2010, 07:33:41 PM »
I think it is primarily dependent on the subjective hearing preference of the listener.  Some people report being bothered by a percieved high-frequency peak or resonance or whatever and others not at all.  I very rarely notice any more of a problem up there than elsewhere else in the frequency range.   Could just be my idiosyncratic ears, or that I record similar music in similar rooms to what you record.  I've always wondered if what some are hearing could be due to the helmoltz resonance which the grids use to provide their boost or even a similar cavity resonance of the bare capsule half-burried in the body tube, producing a 'ringing' at certain high-frequencies due to stored energy.  Just another speculation. It doesn't bother me so I don't worry about it too much.  Those that it does bother tend to choose other mics.

Guysonic, what are your thoughts on this?  I know you modifed some of these as prototype DSM capsules years ago and decided it was too much of a hassle and risk of damaging the capsule.  I assume you removed the portion of the hollow body tube in which the capsule is half-burried and created a smoother surrounding structure similar to your standard DSM design.  Curious about your thoughts (I know you feel similar to Richard about the subjective sound of these, at least in their 'unmodified' form).
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Best under-$1000-pair miniatures?
« Reply #56 on: July 09, 2010, 08:00:17 PM »
Since just about every make and type of miniature mic has already been suggested, like to help complete the list with my own mic seeming not so well known to TS posters, but is within stated budget, and has available easily accessed recordings of all types of venues for knowing about performance without requiring purchase.

Advantage of DSSM mics is a fully natural uncolored stereo-surround characteristic leaving full choice to color anyway you like in post.  For example, if desiring to sound like a very colored mic like a DPA-4060 series, easy to do by boosting mid highs, reducing the bass a bit, and maybe adding a hint of harshness with a few other post edit effects. 

Another advantage is full performance from direct Sony PCM-D50 or M10 decks making it the most compact 2-piece recording package in existance.


See retail:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=83254.0

Recordings of every type of venue at: www.sonicstudios.com/mp3_2slp.htm

Guy maybe you would get more sales by fluffing less and helping more? Seems to have worked for me. As for your DSM mics.. I like the way the sound actually.... I also like the DPA mics.. Saying they are harsh is total BS the 4090 measurement mic uses the 4060 capsule I have also compared it to my 4007 measurement mic and found them VERY FLAT and neutral sounding..... I have been using DPA 4060  mics since they were introduced. for doing close micing and for distant source micing.. And never found them harsh. I make mics for a living and consider both DPA and your DSM mics to be something to aspire to. So fluff less help more....

Oops.  That may have been me that said "harsh".  I still stand by that.  I think DPA 4060 are excellent for measurement, and probably for foley too, but I have never liked the sound of them for music.  I really wish I liked them, since the quality and consistency of these things are great.  And I like the company and service too.  But I still prefer Countryman B3 or Nevaton MCE400 for recording music.  As I said, I really do wish DPA 406x sounded better, because I've had consistency/ matching problems with other options.

OK, here is a theory about why the DPA sound the way they do: The rectangular diaphragm does not have the same tension that a classic (cylindrical) one does.  That makes it more sensitive, but also open to high-frequency distortion.  Just an idea.

OK, back to Guysonic's mics now...

  Richard

No not your words at all....There is nothing further from the truth using the words "harsh" to describe the sound of the 4060 is not accurate, at least to my ears. This was a slam against the DPA 4060 to be sure.

Guysonic "For example, if desiring to sound like a very colored mic like a DPA-4060 series, easy to do by boosting mid highs, reducing the bass a bit, and maybe adding a hint of harshness with a few other post edit effects"
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Best under-$1000-pair miniatures?
« Reply #57 on: July 09, 2010, 09:18:49 PM »
Chris, not sure if you saw this below.. any thoughts on potential issues driving two decks with one CA-UGLY?

Quote from: self
[slight thread hijack]
I've a technical question which you or Chris may be able to help me with about correctly setting up part of the comp:
I plan to compare two pairs of mics (4060 and CA-1), each into identical CA-UGLY preamps and R-09 recorders.  That part is straightforward.

But I also like compare recording the 4060s to a Tascam DR2d as well as the R-09.  Can I simply spit the line level output of that CA-UGLY with a 'Y' cable into the line-in of both of those decks? Or might I compromise things impedance-wise feeding the two recorders simultaneously from the single preamp?  I’m trying to avoid having to run two separate comps by running the three recorders simultaneously.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Best under-$1000-pair miniatures?
« Reply #58 on: July 10, 2010, 09:14:13 AM »
Chris, not sure if you saw this below.. any thoughts on potential issues driving two decks with one CA-UGLY?

Quote from: self
[slight thread hijack]
I've a technical question which you or Chris may be able to help me with about correctly setting up part of the comp:
I plan to compare two pairs of mics (4060 and CA-1), each into identical CA-UGLY preamps and R-09 recorders.  That part is straightforward.

But I also like compare recording the 4060s to a Tascam DR2d as well as the R-09.  Can I simply spit the line level output of that CA-UGLY with a 'Y' cable into the line-in of both of those decks? Or might I compromise things impedance-wise feeding the two recorders simultaneously from the single preamp?  I’m trying to avoid having to run two separate comps by running the three recorders simultaneously.

I think the best way to split the signal if you must.. Is to take the audio output of the first recorder and send it into the line input of the second.. The two recorders would actually reduce the load because both recorders would be in parallel, that being said i dont know what the interaction would be between the two recorders. I simply could not give you an answer with out having the two recorders and the time to analyze the the signal chain.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Best under-$1000-pair miniatures?
« Reply #59 on: July 10, 2010, 03:46:49 PM »
Thanks.  I think I better do a seperate comp to limit the variables.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

 

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