Topic: Best under-$1000-pair miniatures?

[groovon]

I was considering getting a pair of 4060s or 4061s. It seems like a no-brainer, and I'll get a pair someday, but it's a big investment right now and there are plenty of times when omnis don't seem the right choice (small clubs, etc).

So I'm wondering what your opinions would be on a comparable set of miniature cardioids, performance/price-wise? Would you still go with DPA, i.e. 4080s? Or what other brands would you suggest?

My thought here is I'm either going to go for the most transparent and quietest small mics I can get (a one-time investment), or else I'll just stick with the $100-a-pair electrets that are 'pretty good'. In between these alternatives doesn't make as much sense to me, as I'll still be out a significant amount, but wondering if I should've spent more(!) If that makes any sense...

These are to be used both 'stealth-wise' with a battery power supply, and 'open', from normal phantom-powered XLR inputs.

BTW, where's the best place (in US), price-wise, to buy DPA? Please PM me if neccesary.)

Thanks!

Dave

[sparkey]

I've heard informed opinions speak very highly of the 4060's and 4061's.  A few years back we A/B'd some Audix microphones for Sonic Sense and they sounded very nice, although I haven't heard anything else about that particular brand since then.  You can also occasionally find MBHO mic sets with the actives for $1000 used, which may be your best bet.

There is also this sexy beast here...if you can find Schoeps caps for $1000, which you probably can, and then budget for an external preamp...

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=132711.120

[Gutbucket]

^^^^
Sweet rig.

I'm a big fan of DPA 4060 miniatures.  I have two pair and use them more than any of my 'regular mics'.

Unfortunately DPA doesn't make a miniature directional mic that translates as well as the omnis do for distance mic'ing.  The directionals are all are designed with frequency responses that accommodate the close mic'd proximity response of voice and instruments (They roll off below ~250Hz).

That said, I've heard some great, natural sounding recordings using 4099 instrument supercardioids.  The samples were of unamplified classical type material and had that beautiful DPA transparent clarity quality that is hard to find in most other miniature directionals I've heard.  I'd like to try a pair of 4099 myself if I could find a great deal on them.  The reduced low end response could be advantageous for some bass heavy amplified PA club gigs, but that's pure speculation.

Not many around here have used either of these mics but if you do, I'd look at the higher sensitivity variations of the 4099 (not the low sensitivity trumpet mic) since they roll off less and have a smoother, less vocal-specific treble response contour than the 4080 vocal specific mic.  Here's the response graphs:

4080 (at 25cm)-


4099 (various distances)-


Just noticed DPA now lists a 4098H hanging superchardioid choir mic due to ship next fall.  Specs appear identical to the 4099 (the posted response graph is identical), which somewhat validates using these mics for distance mic'ing this way.

[edited for grammar rocks]

[groovon]

Thanks for the nice detailed responses, guys. This is all great info for me, as I've never gotten into expensive tiny mics before. Would you buy them from B&H, or is there somewhere cheaper (Please PM me if neccesary. I notice from B&H, although I deal with them a lot, these are 'special order'/non-returnable.)

Also, I'm wondering where you can buy the microdot connectors separately? Thanks again!

Dave

[taperj]

Would you buy them from B&H, or is there somewhere cheaper (Please PM me if neccesary. I notice from B&H, although I deal with them a lot, these are 'special order'/non-returnable.)

I've ultimately bought both of my sets of Neumanns from Guitar Center. I do all my research beforehand on my own and get the product I want picked out, I then look for the best price online and go to Guitar Center and quote them B&H's price(or any other competitior with a better deal). On mics they have beat B&H's prices by quite a bit(even with 10.25% Chicago sales tax included they beat B&H by about 350$ on my skm140), another nice thing is you get what I like to call a "responsible human" out of the deal. If it comes in damaged or if there's any problem, I don't have to do anything other than give it right back to the human I bought it from at GC and they'll take it back with a smile, whereas on a special order item from B&H I believe you're looking at taking the complaint to the manufacturer with your middle man conveniently out of the equation in a non-refundable situation. Whether it be GC or another, it's not a bad idea to pit these companies against each other to get a better deal and some added value.

Have fun with the new mics! 

[groovon]

Would you buy them from B&H, or is there somewhere cheaper (Please PM me if neccesary. I notice from B&H, although I deal with them a lot, these are 'special order'/non-returnable.)

I've ultimately bought both of my sets of Neumanns from Guitar Center. I do all my research beforehand on my own and get the product I want picked out, I then look for the best price online and go to Guitar Center and quote them B&H's price(or any other competitior with a better deal). On mics they have beat B&H's prices by quite a bit(even with 10.25% Chicago sales tax included they beat B&H by about 350$ on my skm140), another nice thing is you get what I like to call a "responsible human" out of the deal. If it comes in damaged or if there's any problem, I don't have to do anything other than give it right back to the human I bought it from at GC and they'll take it back with a smile, whereas on a special order item from B&H I believe you're looking at taking the complaint to the manufacturer with your middle man conveniently out of the equation in a non-refundable situation. Whether it be GC or another, it's not a bad idea to pit these companies against each other to get a better deal and some added value.

Have fun with the new mics! 

Thanks for the tip. I haven't always had the same positive experiences with GC as you have, even though I've spent tens of thousands with them over the years. It depends on the item and the salesman. I can't see them being interested in getting DPAs for me though, and if they did it would also be on a special order basis.
There's a nearby pro audio store where I might be able to look at some and negotiate a price.

Dave

[taperj]

I haven't always had the same positive experiences with GC as you have, even though I've spent tens of thousands with them over the years.

Honestly, I've had nothing but horrendous experiences with their staff, I literally have to go in and almost order it for myself because most of their "experts" wouldn't know a skm140 from a drum stick. I only use them for saving money, zero interest credit for a year and the refundability and accountability on a special order. As I stated, the research is done long before I hit the doors of GC.

I can't see them being interested in getting DPAs for me though, and if they did it would also be on a special order basis.

They'll get 'em if they can make a buck, or even break even. They'll order brands they don't carry and I've never been told it's non-refundable because it's special order.

There's a nearby pro audio store where I might be able to look at some and negotiate a price.

In my experience, "local" shops generally can't compete even with B&H price wise. There are obviously other added benefits to buying for a local reputed pro audio dealer with good professionals though.

[groovon]

I'll do more looking obviously, but honestly right now at this price level it's more important to make sure and get what I want even if it costs a bit more. I can actually imagine GC stiffing me with a refusal of service once they have my money. It's happened before.

The local store is having hard times, so they're bending over backwards to sell stock. And I'd rather help them than GC, anyday. I'll never forget a previously 'friendly salesman' at GC knowingly taking my money for new 16-bit ADATs only days before the 20-bit model was due out (he knew it all too well), and then refusing to credit me towards the newer model, unless I paid list price with no discount. I never forgave that salesman, and I've rarely visited a GC since.

Anyhow, back to the more pleasant subject of miniature microphones..!

Oh yeah, where do you get your microdot connectors from? And are you guys even using those, as on the original mics, or are you 'hacking' them off and using mini-XLRs or whatever to mate with your various preamps/phantom/battery boxes?

PS - Here is what I found so far in a search, but is there any alternative to buying them as a DPA part? :

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=56418.0

Also, what is the optimal DC input bias voltage for the 4060 cap? In the specs I see only the raw DC input the various DPA adaptors will accept (i.e. 5V to 50V).

Thanks!
Dave

[listener2]

My experience with going into a local GC store was similar... the staff I dealt with was pretty much clueless to what items and model numbers were of things that GC advertises on their web pages and could not find anything I asked for and did not know what I was talking about.  So I left.  Anyway, as for my DPA 4060 mics, I bought mine through B&H Photo with their low price quote offering.  Not much of a discount but I ordered it anyway also not feeling comfortable or happy about their "special order items, no refund, no return" policy.  I took the chance.  It took the full 2 to 3 weeks for B&H to deliver the stereo mic kit to me from DPA.  I don't know why B&H takes so long to ship and deliver this item to you.  I called and spoke to DPA company reps themselves and they said that they ship the orders out fast, the same day that they get such orders and it only takes a few days for Fed Ex to deliver the package.  Why B&H has DPA ship the mics to their warehouse first and then B&H sits on it and reships to the customer 2 weeks later behooves me to no end.  They usually do fine on everything else.  Anyway to shorten the story, I received my DPA 4060 stereo mic kit and one of the DPA XLR phantom power adapters was defective and made loud scratchy noise when first plugging into mic power.  I called DPA for service and they (DPA) made me pay for return shipping of the defective XLR adapter instead of nicely offering to replace it at no cost to me (as I just got the set brand spanking new supposedly from them and already dished out over $1000 for a defect?)  DPA did not care and said that's the way it is, pay up!.  They would not be understanding of the situation.  So I had to pay extra to replace the defective XLR phantom power adapter.  Other than that, the DPA 4060 mics have been performing excellent for me and make excellent recordings.  I compared them with another set of mics called Countryman B3 mics that I also purchased for about $369 total for a matched stereo pair and I was surprised that the Countryman B3 mics sounded just as good as the DPA 4060's.  This is not to put down the DPA mics sound or noise level qualities. They both are excellent mics, its just that the B3 set cost about 1/3 the DPA mics!  The DPA 4060's have the edge in some recordings while the B3's sometimes sounded better to me.  Overall you won't go wrong with either one of these.  The DPA 4060's are very sensitive mics though... so they might overload sensitive high gain preamp stages more readily than the lower sensitivity DPA 4061's.  I have the low sensitivity model of the B3 mics though.  So keep that in mind for the differences I reporteed.

[groovon]

Thanks for the info and the mic comparison. I saw B3s being used around here and was interested, but their info on their site doesn't do much to inspire confidence - described only as 'voice mics', and not giving any dynamic range or much in the way of impressive specs. But maybe they're just being honest(!) I'm sure they're good mics. Hearing of your experience with DPA was also less than inspiring. Maybe I will call them for a chat first (before they have my money!)

For the record, I'd also consider a used pair, but only if they're in excellent condition.

Dave

[groovon]

Has anybody seen/heard of this company, or played with any of these (link below)?


http://microphonemadness.com/products/mmhlsomsenmi.htm

http://microphonemadness.com/products/mmhigsencars1.htm


These are some of their 'higher-end' ones, which they claim use Sennheiser capsules. Specs aren't all that impressive (65dB dynamic range [edit - sorry, that's s/n ratio]); nevertheless I'd be curious to hear anything about them.

I know, I said I was going for either high-end or low-budget(!) Just curious, that's all...

Dave

[illconditioned]

Has anybody seen/heard of this company, or played with any of these (link below)?


http://microphonemadness.com/products/mmhlsomsenmi.htm

http://microphonemadness.com/products/mmhigsencars1.htm


These are some of their 'higher-end' ones, which they claim use Sennheiser capsules. Specs aren't all that impressive (65dB dynamic range); nevertheless I'd be curious to hear anything about them.

I know, I said I was going for either high-end or low-budget(!) Just curious, that's all...

Dave

Omnis are based on the MKE2 capsule.  Cardioids are based on the MKE40 capsule.  Both are good.

  Richard

[groovon]

Omnis are based on the MKE2 capsule.  Cardioids are based on the MKE40 capsule.  Both are good.

  Richard
[/quote]

But how good? I'm tempted to give 'em a whirl just because most of the cheap-but-good electret mics around seem to use the ubiquitous Panasonic caps (not that there's anything necessarily wrong with that), so maybe these are a little bit quieter and/or more transparent. On the other hand, maybe there's not a lot of difference in this price range. I'd love to hear some samples recorded with these.

Dave

[groovon]

I've heard informed opinions speak very highly of the 4060's and 4061's.  A few years back we A/B'd some Audix microphones for Sonic Sense and they sounded very nice, although I haven't heard anything else about that particular brand since then.  You can also occasionally find MBHO mic sets with the actives for $1000 used, which may be your best bet.

There is also this sexy beast here...if you can find Schoeps caps for $1000, which you probably can, and then budget for an external preamp...

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=132711.120

Nice setup, Sparkey. I'm actually getting a Sony D10 this coming week. I doubt I'll ever have anything quite as fancy to plug into it as what you've got there though! Even a pair of 4060s will stretch the budget a bit far.

Cheers
Dave

[Belexes]

I'd look into Church Audio mics before you seal the deal on MM product. CA-14's are very nice.