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Which version of the song sounds better? 1 or 2

1 sounds better
9 (60%)
2 sounds better
4 (26.7%)
they sound about the same
2 (13.3%)

Total Members Voted: 15

Author Topic: Nbox/CMR Comp  (Read 22913 times)

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Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: Nbox/CMR Comp
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2010, 12:12:02 AM »
This gave me the opportunity to take a voltage reading and I only got a voltage reading of 9.3volts to polarize the capsule..so the myth of the larger capsule ends containing the goods to step up the voltage to 48-60 volts has been busted IMO..

Shocking.. pun not intended.   We already know it isn't 60 volts, and we've been told it is 48.  I'm curious to see the circuit in the cmr.  I'd expect a new IC, and not just a variation on a KC5.  What sort of meter did you use to measure the voltage?

Offline schoepsnbox

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Re: Nbox/CMR Comp
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2010, 12:32:15 AM »
This gave me the opportunity to take a voltage reading and I only got a voltage reading of 9.3volts to polarize the capsule..so the myth of the larger capsule ends containing the goods to step up the voltage to 48-60 volts has been busted IMO..

Shocking.. pun not intended.   We already know it isn't 60 volts, and we've been told it is 48.  I'm curious to see the circuit in the cmr.  I'd expect a new IC, and not just a variation on a KC5.  What sort of meter did you use to measure the voltage?


Used a Fluke 112 to take the voltage measurement...I have performed the same measurements with other schoeps active cables...such as VMS02iB, VMS5U, and Sonosax w/KCY cables and there is definitely a much lower voltage on the CMRs...I did take the one CMR cable apart out of shear curiosity and it is completely different than the standard KC end all together..I didn't get to document it all as the cables were assembled just hours before the show and the parts are all surface mount.
Gotta say, Schoeps does listen to suggestions made by users and if there is enough interest they will develop an answer...the same can not be said about other mic makers.

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Nbox/CMR Comp
« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2010, 12:34:39 AM »
Regardless of the preamp/recorder used with these cmrs the characteristics of the capsule suffer due to lower polarization voltage..again all IMO.

What characteristics, exactly?

I don't have a solid enough technical background to identify what characteristics would or could be impacted by lower polarization, beyond accepting at face value the commentary from Schoeps that 48v (instead of 60v) polarization impacts sensitivity, marginally at that...and nothing more.  So in my mind, (at least) two potential scenarios may apply when one supplies much lower than 60v capsule polarization (like 9.3v):

  • Still lower sensitivity...and nothing more
  • Below a certain threshold, lower capsule polarization impacts sonic characteristics other than just sensitivity.

It's this latter case about which I'm curious and wonder whether it applies in this case.
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Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: Nbox/CMR Comp
« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2010, 12:40:55 AM »
Used a Fluke 112 to take the voltage measurement...I have performed the same measurements with other schoeps active cables...such as VMS02iB, VMS5U, and Sonosax w/KCY cables and there is definitely a much lower voltage on the CMRs..

I'm not familiar with that meter, but is it possible that the driver circuit provides too little current to measure with that meter?

Offline darktrain

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Re: Nbox/CMR Comp
« Reply #34 on: July 30, 2010, 12:46:24 AM »
Listening to the samples it hard to say that one suffers over the other, so the statement that the cmr's suffer beyond the drop in sensitivity is just silly, i actually like the fact that they are have a little lower sensitivity, it comes in very handy when recording extremely loud metal/rock bands in small venues and seems to be very nice with quiet acts as well with gain added from the tinybox, feels like Nicky is trying to piss on the CMR parade, each(nbox and cmr's) has its place and followers, like me, i have had a nbox and liked it but it really bothered me the amount of power it consumes and found that i didn't like the fixed gain and size but I would never tell someone not to give it a go or smear it intensionally, its a great unit but i personally think the cmr/tinybox is awesome as well and i now have many quality shows under many conditions that only confirm this.

Offline schoepsnbox

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Re: Nbox/CMR Comp
« Reply #35 on: July 30, 2010, 01:06:38 AM »
Sure, I'm trying to piss on the CMR parade...Right...Hey listen..to each his own...it's obvious by this comparison that a majority of folks preferred the Nbox recording...I can see how you can perceive that as me fluffing the Nbox and trying to "piss" on your parade but how can you argue that a reduced voltage polarizing the backplate of a condenser mic is not going to have any negative affect on the sensitivity of the capsule...beside the fact that these CMR's were designed for some lame wireless transmitter...Hey, if your satisfied with your recordings then I'm happy for you...If the CMRs are your end all, why should I care...Everything I put out there was all IMO...What do you care what I think?...You like your rig and I like mine...Carry on with your CMR parade...I'll keep my power hungry preamp for my outings.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2010, 01:09:20 AM by schoepsnbox »

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: Nbox/CMR Comp
« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2010, 01:48:31 AM »
Listening to the samples it hard to say that one suffers over the other, so the statement that the cmr's suffer beyond the drop in sensitivity is just silly

It's not just that.  The cmr source's waveform was.. odd.  And not just the concerns about phase (that's easily fixed).


Offline schoepsnbox

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Re: Nbox/CMR Comp
« Reply #37 on: July 30, 2010, 02:19:06 AM »
mshilarious, first let me say that I think your products are fantastic and none of this discussion has any bearing on your products AT ALL..the tinybox that ed gave me along with his CMRs to rig up is a sweet looking unit and my concern is with the CMR cables and not your preamp...Now my slant on the CMR cables is that they are not powering the capsule with the proper voltages, which has been my concern all along. There is no dc-dc converter in the CMRs so it only passes the power from the pre along to the capsule..this may be fine for the duties they were designed for and for all intensive purposes they do a fine job...had Ed not put out the cash to give them a whirl and happen to have an extra ticket for me so we could do a comp we would likely not be having this discussion...I'm not looking to "piss" anyone off here...Just would like to state what I see to be the case...If it hurts someones feeling or upsets the apple cart then so be it..Do the CMR's work....they sure do....Do they sound good, absolutely...The whole purpose behind this exercise was to put the "questions" to rest..The Schoeps capsules have a separate ring for polarization which differs them from all the other capsule like akg, gefell and others...I have always measured the voltage the same way with the capsule detached and was always able to achieve the 48-60 volt that one would expect to see..now if the CMRs work in a different fashion then I may be mistaken...but I highly doubt it..So far no one can prove otherwise..Thanks for the time and your work on your pres and such...you are a great asset to the community..Hope I did not offend you or your work here.

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Nbox/CMR Comp
« Reply #38 on: July 30, 2010, 02:26:45 AM »
The cmr source's waveform was.. odd.  And not just the concerns about phase (that's easily fixed).

For those of us unable to do so on our own, would you mind posting some screenshots of the oddities?
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Offline schoepsnbox

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Re: Nbox/CMR Comp
« Reply #39 on: July 30, 2010, 02:46:50 AM »
Oh, trust me I'm not offended, it's a technical problem which is of interest.  But I find it difficult to believe that Schoeps isn't running a DC converter.  They'd have to in order to get even 9.3V out of tinybox; it is only supplying 7.5V in CMR configuration.



Stupid question here...have you actually wired the CMR cables or tested them personally?



Offline acidjack

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Re: Nbox/CMR Comp
« Reply #40 on: July 30, 2010, 09:21:30 AM »
Listening to the samples it hard to say that one suffers over the other, so the statement that the cmr's suffer beyond the drop in sensitivity is just silly, i actually like the fact that they are have a little lower sensitivity, it comes in very handy when recording extremely loud metal/rock bands in small venues and seems to be very nice with quiet acts as well with gain added from the tinybox, feels like Nicky is trying to piss on the CMR parade, each(nbox and cmr's) has its place and followers, like me, i have had a nbox and liked it but it really bothered me the amount of power it consumes and found that i didn't like the fixed gain and size but I would never tell someone not to give it a go or smear it intensionally, its a great unit but i personally think the cmr/tinybox is awesome as well and i now have many quality shows under many conditions that only confirm this.

Being someone who has no skin in this game, Robb, I don't think anyone is trying to "smear" the CMRs.  I think it is of interest to folks here how they perform since they seem to be "magic" in some respects in that they seem to be able to provide Schoeps-like performance without the high power needs that you mentioned (and Nicky does not deny) of the NBox.  This kind of reminds me, on the much, much lower end, of the debate between using a simple 9v battery box with the small mics folks use vs. a pre.  I personally find that for loud music, it doesn't really matter and using a more bulky pre is a waste.  But some beg to differ.  I think the same seems to be true with CMRs.  On a purely technical basis, they are a bit less sensitive.  For most of the shows you tape (and most that I probably tape) that difference appears to be small (although, according to those who listened to this comp, it seems perceptible).  Especially for folks who stealth a lot, so many other factors are involved that I would have a hard time getting worked up over the small differences.

But what do I know...I stealth with 4021s at the rare times I do it these days and use the bodies with my Schoeps... On the other hand, I don't have $1k+ in a pre or an SD box.  Again, what matters to some, not so much to others....

I'm just glad everyone here has continued to come up with elegant and great-sounding alternatives to using the bodies with the mics....
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
Decks: Sound Devices MixPre 6, Zoom F8, M10, D50

My recordings on nyctaper.com: http://www.nyctaper.com/?tag=acidjack | LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/acidjack | twitter: http://www.twitter.com/acidjacknyc | Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/acidjacknyc

Offline NOLAfishwater

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Re: Nbox/CMR Comp
« Reply #41 on: July 30, 2010, 10:27:32 AM »
the only true comp will be on a stand in same configuration with same recorder

I don't understand how people are getting so worked up over this thread. there are too many factors that could affect the sonic quality of the recording.

Head height
Mic spacing
Fabric over mics
People sitting in front that were taller
etc.....




Offline page

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Re: Nbox/CMR Comp
« Reply #42 on: July 30, 2010, 11:05:53 AM »
the only true comp will be on a stand in same configuration with same recorder

I don't understand how people are getting so worked up over this thread. there are too many factors that could affect the sonic quality of the recording.

Head height
Mic spacing
Fabric over mics
People sitting in front that were taller
etc.....

Bingo. This is simply an exercise in demonstrating what factors can change a recording, not in comparing the two recordings. For that to happen, some serious planning would have to take place (acidjack's neumann/schoeps post comes closest in a reasonable manner that I've seen lately). This isn't an useless discussion, far from it, but some context would be handy to keep in mind.
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Offline darktrain

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Re: Nbox/CMR Comp
« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2010, 11:16:50 AM »
It was late and i was testy, felt like he was making it a competition but in my mind its an alternative option. My whole point was that everyone seems to agree that they are very close sound wise which is really all you need to know. What difference there is could be from the pres and there "flavor" as well.  No hard feelings.

Offline dennisrtyler

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Re: Nbox/CMR Comp
« Reply #44 on: July 30, 2010, 11:23:45 AM »
yeah that's what i think a lot of folks are overlooking here is that this is a comp between the nbox and the tinybox more than anything else, not nbox vs. cmr.
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