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Offline John Willett

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Re: Sennheiser MKH8040
« Reply #45 on: August 19, 2011, 03:49:50 AM »
His comment to me was that the Sennheiser were so realistic and that 40 had the freq. response of a high quality omni condensor.

They use a different approach than most condensors.  They use EQ in the mic to modify the response.  Not everyone likes that approach.  I haven't tried'em.

This comment is pretty misleading as it does not explain things properly and invites misinterpretation.

Firstly - the Sennheiser MKH microphones are RF condensers - most other microphones are AF condensers.

Basically, AF capacitor microphones use the capsule as a capacitor to store charge.  With one fixed plate and the other free to vibrate in sympathy with the sound, the capacitance varies, and the charge moves in or out of the capsule accordingly.  This is measured by the head pre-amplifier and an audio signal results.  All well and good, but the capsule is inherently in a high impedance circuit (over 1GigaΩ) – it has to sit there with stored charge until the diaphragm moves and any changes in the charge are perceived as audio.  In a humid atmosphere the stored charge finds it easier to escape on water molecules in the air rather than through the input of the pre-amplifier, hence noisy and reduced output, and misery all round.  The high biasing voltage also attracts dust particles to the diaphragm, reducing its efficiency and linearity.

The RF system (as used in Sennheiser MKH microphones) uses the capsule (a low impedance capsule) in a completely different way: as a tuning capacitor for an RF oscillator – which inherently employs it in a low impedance circuit where a high frequency signal is being passed through the capacitor all the time.  Changes in capacitance (caused by sound moving the diaphragm) alter the resonant frequency of the circuit (circa 8MHz) and so its frequency becomes proportional to the audio signal.  A simple RF demodulator restores the output to a conventional audio signal.  More complex and sophisticated (but still very rugged), this system is highly immune to the effects of humidity and is thus the preferred design to be used out of doors (or when moving from outside to inside on a cold day!).

Secondly - most microphone manufacturers heavily damp the capsule to get a flat frequency response.  This lowers the output level and putting the effort into frequency response means that, very often, the polar-pattern can get neglected.

In the MKH series, Sennheiser only lightly damp the capsule.  This means that they get a smooth and rounded response and can also put more effort into the polar-pattern.  In the electronics the frequency response is tailored to be the converse of the capsule response.  This gives a flat response and the microphone has a higher output so you don't have to drive you mic. pre-amp. so hard.  Just saying "they use EQ" is very very misleading.

This diagram shows how most manufacturers damp the capsule:-


This diagram shows how Sennheiser lightly damp and put the converse in the electronics:-


Also - The MKH 8000 series (as well as the MKH 800 and MKH 20/30/40 series) all use a symmetrical capsule design.  This capsule design has an acoustically-transparent front plate identical to the back plate.  This means that whatever the daphragm is doing to one plate it is doing equal and opposite to the other - ensuring the acoustic impedance of the capsule remains stable and unchanging.  This vastly reduces the intermodulation distortion (double-tone distortion) of the microphone.  Many normal microphones have IM-distortion figures of 2 to 3% at high frequencies.  The symmetrival capsule keeps this at virtually zero and it peaks at only about 0.3% at 20kHz.  This is why the comment was made that they are "so realistic" and is what I have found in my own exerience.  It's like listening to a person rather than a recording of a person - a bit like looking at your garden through windows that have just been cleaned, rather than ones that were cleaned a year ago.

You may also find THIS useful - it's an English translation of an article published in VDT magazine in Germany of an interview with the designers of the MKH 8000 microphone series.  It makes fascinating reading, actually.

I hope this helps clear things up.

« Last Edit: August 19, 2011, 03:51:36 AM by John Willett »

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: Sennheiser MKH8040
« Reply #46 on: August 19, 2011, 10:07:01 AM »
His comment to me was that the Sennheiser were so realistic and that 40 had the freq. response of a high quality omni condensor.

They use a different approach than most condensors.  They use EQ in the mic to modify the response.  Not everyone likes that approach.  I haven't tried'em.

This comment is pretty misleading as it does not explain things properly and invites misinterpretation.

Firstly - the Sennheiser MKH microphones are RF condensers - most other microphones are AF condensers.

Basically, AF capacitor microphones use the capsule as a capacitor to store charge.  With one fixed plate and the other free to vibrate in sympathy with the sound, the capacitance varies, and the charge moves in or out of the capsule accordingly.  This is measured by the head pre-amplifier and an audio signal results.  All well and good, but the capsule is inherently in a high impedance circuit (over 1GigaΩ) – it has to sit there with stored charge until the diaphragm moves and any changes in the charge are perceived as audio.  In a humid atmosphere the stored charge finds it easier to escape on water molecules in the air rather than through the input of the pre-amplifier, hence noisy and reduced output, and misery all round.  The high biasing voltage also attracts dust particles to the diaphragm, reducing its efficiency and linearity.

The RF system (as used in Sennheiser MKH microphones) uses the capsule (a low impedance capsule) in a completely different way: as a tuning capacitor for an RF oscillator – which inherently employs it in a low impedance circuit where a high frequency signal is being passed through the capacitor all the time.  Changes in capacitance (caused by sound moving the diaphragm) alter the resonant frequency of the circuit (circa 8MHz) and so its frequency becomes proportional to the audio signal.  A simple RF demodulator restores the output to a conventional audio signal.  More complex and sophisticated (but still very rugged), this system is highly immune to the effects of humidity and is thus the preferred design to be used out of doors (or when moving from outside to inside on a cold day!).

Secondly - most microphone manufacturers heavily damp the capsule to get a flat frequency response.  This lowers the output level and putting the effort into frequency response means that, very often, the polar-pattern can get neglected.

In the MKH series, Sennheiser only lightly damp the capsule.  This means that they get a smooth and rounded response and can also put more effort into the polar-pattern.  In the electronics the frequency response is tailored to be the converse of the capsule response.  This gives a flat response and the microphone has a higher output so you don't have to drive you mic. pre-amp. so hard.  Just saying "they use EQ" is very very misleading.

This diagram shows how most manufacturers damp the capsule:-


This diagram shows how Sennheiser lightly damp and put the converse in the electronics:-


Also - The MKH 8000 series (as well as the MKH 800 and MKH 20/30/40 series) all use a symmetrical capsule design.  This capsule design has an acoustically-transparent front plate identical to the back plate.  This means that whatever the daphragm is doing to one plate it is doing equal and opposite to the other - ensuring the acoustic impedance of the capsule remains stable and unchanging.  This vastly reduces the intermodulation distortion (double-tone distortion) of the microphone.  Many normal microphones have IM-distortion figures of 2 to 3% at high frequencies.  The symmetrival capsule keeps this at virtually zero and it peaks at only about 0.3% at 20kHz.  This is why the comment was made that they are "so realistic" and is what I have found in my own exerience.  It's like listening to a person rather than a recording of a person - a bit like looking at your garden through windows that have just been cleaned, rather than ones that were cleaned a year ago.

You may also find THIS useful - it's an English translation of an article published in VDT magazine in Germany of an interview with the designers of the MKH 8000 microphone series.  It makes fascinating reading, actually.

I hope this helps clear things up.

John, don't you have some corporate relationship with Sennheiser?

The issue of extensive EQ in the MKH's has been discussed at length over on Gearslutz, with lots of opinions.  While I like the concept behind the RF coupling, I don't like the heavy EQ approach.  I'd rather have a capsule that has great mechanical response.  Fixing the capsule response with EQ just isn't an approach I like.  I have considered the MKH's for nature recording..

A friend bought the multi-pattern senn's (new) a few years ago, mkh 800's, I think.  Very expensive mics (about $6K/pair now).  He only ever used them indoors in great environments.  They gave him a lot of problems and it took at least two trips to Senn, and many weeks, to sort it out.  I won't condemn Senn on the basis of that, but it does give me pause; especially the service.  I once believed I had issues with a recently purchased pair of mk21's - the US schoeps distributor, Redding, immediately swapped them out for new ones  (in hindsight, I think it was an emerging problem with the input of my 722).

I was thinking of getting some MKH's, but then I read on gearslutz that they had their own issues with humidity (perhaps more related to the electronics) and Senn advised against using them in those conditions.  I'd still like to try them, but what I read put things on hold.

Offline John Willett

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Re: Sennheiser MKH8040
« Reply #47 on: August 19, 2011, 12:41:07 PM »

John, don't you have some corporate relationship with Sennheiser?

No - I am an independent consultant and location recording unit.  I used to work for Sennheiser UK as Technical Manager, but left there very early in 2010.  This is why I have knowledge that is in the public domain, but may not have easy access.



The issue of extensive EQ in the MKH's has been discussed at length over on Gearslutz, with lots of opinions.  While I like the concept behind the RF coupling, I don't like the heavy EQ approach.  I'd rather have a capsule that has great mechanical response.  Fixing the capsule response with EQ just isn't an approach I like.

You are misunderstanding things here.

This is nothing to do with "fixing a capsule response" - and it's not "heavy EQ" in the way that most people understand it when you say "heavy EQ".

The capsule does have great mechanical response because you are not damping everything down and restricting the capsule response to make it flat.  The MKH capsule is only lightly damped so it reacts freely and the opposite of the capsule response is in the electronics - I would not describe it as "heavy EQ" at all, just a frequency response designed to be the opposite of the capsule - the capsule designed to be as responsive as possible as you are not damping the hell out of it.



I have considered the MKH's for nature recording..

A friend bought the multi-pattern senn's (new) a few years ago, mkh 800's, I think.  Very expensive mics (about $6K/pair now).  He only ever used them indoors in great environments.  They gave him a lot of problems and it took at least two trips to Senn, and many weeks, to sort it out.  I won't condemn Senn on the basis of that, but it does give me pause; especially the service.  I once believed I had issues with a recently purchased pair of mk21's - the US schoeps distributor, Redding, immediately swapped them out for new ones  (in hindsight, I think it was an emerging problem with the input of my 722).

I can't comment on Sennheiser USA's service, I know service in the UK and Europe is good, you may have been unlucky.



I was thinking of getting some MKH's, but then I read on gearslutz that they had their own issues with humidity (perhaps more related to the electronics) and Senn advised against using them in those conditions.  I'd still like to try them, but what I read put things on hold.

I have never heard of Sennheiser advising against using MKH microphones in humid situations - never.  I have, however, heard some new/junior people in Sennheiser USA giving incorrect information (which I immediately informed their Technical Director so he could correct them).

All I can say is get some on loan and try for yourself and don't go too much on internet chitter chatter.

Oh - and I am on good terms with all of the major mic. manufacturers and know many designers personally and have also visited many of them.  So I have no axe to grind at all - all I am doing is to explain things technically so people can make a decsion on the facts rather than on gossip.

Offline danlynch

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Re: Sennheiser MKH8040
« Reply #48 on: February 24, 2012, 05:21:58 PM »
I just got a pair of these little babies.   My first recording will be Sunday night, will report back.

Founder and Host of NYCTaper:  http://www.nyctaper.com

Microphones:  Schoeps CCM4Us, Sennheiser MKH-8040s, Neumann KM-150s, Neumann TLM-102s, DPA 4061s
Recorders:  Sound Devices 744t, Edirol R-44 (Oade Concert Mod), Edirol R-05
Pre-Amps, D/A's:  Apogee Mini-Me

My Recordings on Archive.org: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/danlynch

Offline hi and lo

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Re: Sennheiser MKH8040
« Reply #49 on: February 24, 2012, 05:36:54 PM »
I just got a pair of these little babies.   My first recording will be Sunday night, will report back.

:drool:

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Re: Sennheiser MKH8040
« Reply #50 on: February 26, 2012, 03:29:50 PM »
I just got a pair of these little babies.   My first recording will be Sunday night, will report back.

Looking forward to hearing your recording!

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Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Sennheiser MKH8040
« Reply #51 on: February 26, 2012, 11:29:32 PM »
I just got a pair of these little babies.   My first recording will be Sunday night, will report back.



Cards or Hypers?
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

Offline John Willett

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Re: Sennheiser MKH8040
« Reply #52 on: February 27, 2012, 04:37:39 AM »
I just got a pair of these little babies.   My first recording will be Sunday night, will report back.



Cards or Hypers?

The 8040 is a cardioid - it's the 8050 that is a super-cardioid (Sennheiser don't do hyper-cardioids - the rear lobe gets quite large on a hyper, so Sennheiser do a tailored super-cardioid where the rejection at 90° is the same as at 180° = 10dB).

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Sennheiser MKH8040
« Reply #53 on: February 27, 2012, 04:44:20 AM »
I just got a pair of these little babies.   My first recording will be Sunday night, will report back.



Cards or Hypers?

The 8040 is a cardioid - it's the 8050 that is a super-cardioid (Sennheiser don't do hyper-cardioids - the rear lobe gets quite large on a hyper, so Sennheiser do a tailored super-cardioid where the rejection at 90° is the same as at 180° = 10dB).

Ahh, thanks!
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

Offline danlynch

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Re: Sennheiser MKH8040
« Reply #54 on: February 28, 2012, 12:46:43 AM »
I'm a believer.  I ran the 8040s from the balcony at Bowery Ballroom, which is the best sounding room in NYC.   This is my standard spot in this venue, and I've recorded probably 100 shows from this exact spot with either Neumann KM150s or DPA 4021s

The pattern was 90 degrees.  Its about eye level with the upper stacks about 50 feet back.  Nothing is between the mics and the stacks, although there is a balcony on either side.

I'm thoroughly impressed with the clarity, bass presence, and the crispness of the bottom end.  I have never made a better recording at this venue. 
Founder and Host of NYCTaper:  http://www.nyctaper.com

Microphones:  Schoeps CCM4Us, Sennheiser MKH-8040s, Neumann KM-150s, Neumann TLM-102s, DPA 4061s
Recorders:  Sound Devices 744t, Edirol R-44 (Oade Concert Mod), Edirol R-05
Pre-Amps, D/A's:  Apogee Mini-Me

My Recordings on Archive.org: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/danlynch

Offline newplanet7

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Re: Sennheiser MKH8040
« Reply #55 on: February 28, 2012, 12:59:39 AM »
Probably update your sig now that they are staying!   ;)
MILAB VM-44 Classic~> Silver T's~> Busman PMD660
News From Phish: Will tour as opening act for Widespread Panic for Summer
hahaha never happen, PHiSH is waaaaayyyy better the WSP

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FYI, it is a kick ass recording of a bunch of pretend-a-hippies talking.

Offline Fried Chicken Boy

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Re: Sennheiser MKH8040
« Reply #56 on: February 28, 2012, 03:20:25 PM »
I'm a believer.  I ran the 8040s from the balcony at Bowery Ballroom, which is the best sounding room in NYC.   This is my standard spot in this venue, and I've recorded probably 100 shows from this exact spot with either Neumann KM150s or DPA 4021s

The pattern was 90 degrees.  Its about eye level with the upper stacks about 50 feet back.  Nothing is between the mics and the stacks, although there is a balcony on either side.

I'm thoroughly impressed with the clarity, bass presence, and the crispness of the bottom end.  I have never made a better recording at this venue.

Looking forward to hearing it!

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Sennheiser MKH8040
« Reply #57 on: February 28, 2012, 03:55:20 PM »
I'm a believer.  I ran the 8040s from the balcony at Bowery Ballroom, which is the best sounding room in NYC.   This is my standard spot in this venue, and I've recorded probably 100 shows from this exact spot with either Neumann KM150s or DPA 4021s

The pattern was 90 degrees.  Its about eye level with the upper stacks about 50 feet back.  Nothing is between the mics and the stacks, although there is a balcony on either side.

I'm thoroughly impressed with the clarity, bass presence, and the crispness of the bottom end.  I have never made a better recording at this venue.

Looking forward to hearing it!

Same here. Got a sample?
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

Offline danlynch

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Re: Sennheiser MKH8040
« Reply #58 on: February 28, 2012, 10:06:44 PM »
This is my first recording with these mics.  Its a sbd+aud matrix, but its about 75% of the room:
http://www.nyctaper.com/?p=9131

Founder and Host of NYCTaper:  http://www.nyctaper.com

Microphones:  Schoeps CCM4Us, Sennheiser MKH-8040s, Neumann KM-150s, Neumann TLM-102s, DPA 4061s
Recorders:  Sound Devices 744t, Edirol R-44 (Oade Concert Mod), Edirol R-05
Pre-Amps, D/A's:  Apogee Mini-Me

My Recordings on Archive.org: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/danlynch

Offline dactylus

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Re: Sennheiser MKH8040
« Reply #59 on: March 03, 2012, 12:44:53 PM »


Thanks for the update and thanks for sharing your recording!

+T
hot licks > microphones > recorder



...ball of confusion, that's what the world is today, hey hey...

 

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