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Author Topic: Wind protection options and preference?  (Read 7758 times)

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Wind protection options and preference?
« on: March 21, 2011, 11:00:14 AM »
Last night I got to thinking; there are other windscreen methods other then just the standard foamies which most use. Is there an order of wind noise prevention? e.g. deadrats & foam work better for stiffer wind then just foamies.

Specifically, I'm curious about ballgags and standard foam. Also, what works better; ballgags with rats over them or foam with rats covering it? DSatz once spoke about how foam close to the cap can change the pattern slightly, would having the extra space yeild a more appropriate pattern, or would the plastic mesh of the ball effectively negate any advantages in terms of frequency response or imaging?

(I almost titled this "Protection options and preferences. (Furry Ballgag content)" but decided against it at the last moment.)
"This is a common practice we have on the bus; debating facts that we could easily find through printed material. It's like, how far is it today? I think it's four hours, and someone else comes in at 11 hours, and well, then we'll... just... talk about it..." - Jeb Puryear

"Nostalgia ain't what it used to be." - Jim Williams

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Wind protection options and preference?
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2011, 05:23:21 PM »
I was just thinking about this again over the weekend working on a project.. windscreens I mean, not your alternative thread title.  :P

Here's the full spiel, so appologies if you know some or all this suff.

The trade off of any windscreen is the degree of wind-protection vs sonic artifacts. From a 'do no sonic harm' perspective, obviously no screen at all is best.  The important aspect of wind-protection effectiveness is trapping dead air space around the microphone capsule.  As most realize, the primary artifact from any effective windscreen is reduction of level at high frequencies, but there can be other artifacts as well.

Basket style screens, including baby ball gag style small baskets, have a couple things going for them: they trap a lot of air without material in that airspace that absorb high frequencies and they are generally larger than foam screens so they trap more airspace.  The drawbacks with them from a sonic artifact perspective is that they then have an outer perforated shell with a fabric screen on it and that screen structure can reflect sounds internally.

Foam's advantage is that the material is isotropic (ie- uniform in all directions) and so are windscreens made from it for the most part- they may be slightly thicker in some dimensions but not usually enough to matter.  It does not require a support structure that may cause reflections.   

Fur covers work by reducing turbulence around the outside of the windscreen.  They are a different material than foam, which isn't necessarily good, but the material they are made from doesn't reflect much sound so sonic artifacts other than even more reduction of high frequencies are minimal.

The reduction in highs is pretty much a linear function that can be compensated for with EQ. Internal reflections are complex and cannot be corrected for.  That gives foam an advantage over baskets from a sonic perspective.  I’m unsure of what the acoustical impact of  sound traveling through layers of different density materials may have outside of the internal reflection issues.  That may or may not play a roll in placing fur over foam.

There is an AES paper by J Wuttke of Schoeps that's available for free on the Schopes site which I’ve linked to here before (maybe in that thread you mentioned?) supporting the argument for foam over baskets wherever applicable for this reason.  I’ll try and find it later and link it here again.

Of course the primary thing is wind noise reduction. Many great recordings have been made with basket windscreens and the internal reflection thing may not be that big of a problem in typical use.  Plus there are other things to consider besides the degree of wind protection and sonic artifacts such as available configurations, mic protection, cable management, weight, cost, etc. Foam is generally far less expensive while baskets often include integrated cable management and mounting hardware for specific arrays.

What I take from all this is as guiding design principles is selecting materials with minimal high frequency loss, using the amount necessary but no more and designing the protection with the idea of isotopy so as to be as sonically transparency in all directions as possible.  I just sewed up a fur jacket to slip over a foam screen for a quite wind sensitive ambisonic mic to use at an outdoor festival next week and was very careful about tailoring it so that the base fabric of the fur presents the same ‘view’ to the mic in all directions.  Because of the ‘capsules pointing in all directions aspect’ of the ambisonic mic I was particularly aware of all this and made efforts to not overlap the fabric edges, use minimal seam widths, include minimal extra fabric for the tuck, at the bottom, etc.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2011, 05:25:57 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Wind protection options and preference?
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2011, 05:50:03 PM »
All that and I forgot to address the pickup pattern effect you asked about.

I get sketchy at this point about exactly what is going on there, but the core idea is that pressure omnis are immune to this since they are pressure sensors only, while directional microphones have a pressure gradient component (measuring the difference in pressure that appears between each side of the mic diaphram) as well as a pressure component.  As I understand it, windscreens tend to even out the pressure differences on either side of the diaphram of mics designed to measure the pressure gradient and effect the polar pattern somewhat.  Foam may do that more than the open air of the inside of a basket, but I'm not sure of that.  Also not sure if it is certain frequency ranges that are effected more than others (low end pattern becoming more omnidirectional maybe?) I think the conclusion of the Wuttke paper was to always use foam for omnis which are less suseptible to wind anyway.. but the answer for directional mics may be somewhat more complicated.  It's been awhile since I read the paper and I forgot about that aspect.

Now you've got me wondering about that as well..
Maybe I should go with a fur covered baby ball gag for the Tetramic after all.

« Last Edit: March 21, 2011, 05:53:46 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

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Re: Wind protection options and preference?
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2011, 11:09:10 AM »
Maybe I should go with a fur covered baby ball gag for the Tetramic after all.

If it's one of the Soundfield ones, then you'd need a bigger ballgag for it. I don't think the rycote one I linked to would fit.
"This is a common practice we have on the bus; debating facts that we could easily find through printed material. It's like, how far is it today? I think it's four hours, and someone else comes in at 11 hours, and well, then we'll... just... talk about it..." - Jeb Puryear

"Nostalgia ain't what it used to be." - Jim Williams

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Re: Wind protection options and preference?
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2011, 11:14:28 AM »
Maybe I should go with a fur covered baby ball gag for the Tetramic after all.

If it's one of the Soundfield ones, then you'd need a bigger ballgag for it. I don't think the rycote one I linked to would fit.

Other way round I think - the Soundfield is much larger than the Tetramic.


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Re: Wind protection options and preference?
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2011, 11:23:41 AM »
Maybe I should go with a fur covered baby ball gag for the Tetramic after all.

If it's one of the Soundfield ones, then you'd need a bigger ballgag for it. I don't think the rycote one I linked to would fit.

Other way round I think - the Soundfield is much larger than the Tetramic.

thanks for the clarification, I conflated the two.
"This is a common practice we have on the bus; debating facts that we could easily find through printed material. It's like, how far is it today? I think it's four hours, and someone else comes in at 11 hours, and well, then we'll... just... talk about it..." - Jeb Puryear

"Nostalgia ain't what it used to be." - Jim Williams

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Re: Wind protection options and preference?
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2011, 03:51:14 PM »
MMMM, those MBHO Caps on the SF look YUMMY ;D Aren't they just basically KA200N Cardioids ???
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
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Re: Wind protection options and preference?
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2011, 06:55:58 AM »
MMMM, those MBHO Caps on the SF look YUMMY ;D Aren't they just basically KA200N Cardioids ???

I don't think so - Soundfield had the capsules specifically made for them and it's different from a standard capsule.

Also, Soundfield capsules have to be to an extremely tight tolerance as all 4 have to really be exactly the same.

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Re: Wind protection options and preference?
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2011, 09:19:00 PM »
MMMM, those MBHO Caps on the SF look YUMMY ;D Aren't they just basically KA200N Cardioids ???

I don't think so - Soundfield had the capsules specifically made for them and it's different from a standard capsule.

Also, Soundfield capsules have to be to an extremely tight tolerance as all 4 have to really be exactly the same.

Thanks John. That's about what I was thinking!
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

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Re: Wind protection options and preference?
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2011, 09:57:12 AM »
Last night I got to thinking; there are other windscreen methods other then just the standard foamies which most use. Is there an order of wind noise prevention? e.g. deadrats & foam work better for stiffer wind then just foamies.

Specifically, I'm curious about ballgags and standard foam. Also, what works better; ballgags with rats over them or foam with rats covering it? DSatz once spoke about how foam close to the cap can change the pattern slightly, would having the extra space yeild a more appropriate pattern, or would the plastic mesh of the ball effectively negate any advantages in terms of frequency response or imaging?

(I almost titled this "Protection options and preferences. (Furry Ballgag content)" but decided against it at the last moment.)

I use W23's on 460b's
http://www.akg.com/site/products/powerslave,id,135,pid,135,nodeid,2,_language,EN.html

I wonder how effective it would be to give those a fur coat?
Couldn't be too heavy though since there's no rigid support.
They might look good with fuzzy dice on them. ;D
480b, 460b, Line Audio CM3, SP LSD2, AT BP4025, SP C4,
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Re: Wind protection options and preference?
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2011, 05:36:34 AM »
Last night I got to thinking; there are other windscreen methods other then just the standard foamies which most use. Is there an order of wind noise prevention? e.g. deadrats & foam work better for stiffer wind then just foamies.

Specifically, I'm curious about ballgags and standard foam. Also, what works better; ballgags with rats over them or foam with rats covering it? DSatz once spoke about how foam close to the cap can change the pattern slightly, would having the extra space yeild a more appropriate pattern, or would the plastic mesh of the ball effectively negate any advantages in terms of frequency response or imaging?

(I almost titled this "Protection options and preferences. (Furry Ballgag content)" but decided against it at the last moment.)

I use W23's on 460b's
http://www.akg.com/site/products/powerslave,id,135,pid,135,nodeid,2,_language,EN.html

I wonder how effective it would be to give those a fur coat?
Couldn't be too heavy though since there's no rigid support.
They might look good with fuzzy dice on them. ;D

Rycote make special Windjammers that go over foam windshields like this to improve the wind protection.

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Re: Wind protection options and preference?
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2011, 09:26:08 AM »
Last night I got to thinking; there are other windscreen methods other then just the standard foamies which most use. Is there an order of wind noise prevention? e.g. deadrats & foam work better for stiffer wind then just foamies.

Specifically, I'm curious about ballgags and standard foam. Also, what works better; ballgags with rats over them or foam with rats covering it? DSatz once spoke about how foam close to the cap can change the pattern slightly, would having the extra space yeild a more appropriate pattern, or would the plastic mesh of the ball effectively negate any advantages in terms of frequency response or imaging?

(I almost titled this "Protection options and preferences. (Furry Ballgag content)" but decided against it at the last moment.)

I use W23's on 460b's
http://www.akg.com/site/products/powerslave,id,135,pid,135,nodeid,2,_language,EN.html

I wonder how effective it would be to give those a fur coat?
Couldn't be too heavy though since there's no rigid support.
They might look good with fuzzy dice on them. ;D

Rycote make special Windjammers that go over foam windshields like this to improve the wind protection.

I thought Rycote's fit just their windscreens. (the W18/32 models among others)
"This is a common practice we have on the bus; debating facts that we could easily find through printed material. It's like, how far is it today? I think it's four hours, and someone else comes in at 11 hours, and well, then we'll... just... talk about it..." - Jeb Puryear

"Nostalgia ain't what it used to be." - Jim Williams

Offline John Willett

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Re: Wind protection options and preference?
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2011, 06:41:39 PM »

Rycote make special Windjammers that go over foam windshields like this to improve the wind protection.

I thought Rycote's fit just their windscreens. (the W18/32 models among others)

No, Rycote make a range of Special Windjammers to go over various cameras and/or foam windshields.

They can even do specials.

Give them a ring - tell them the dimensions of the foam windshield you want to cover, and they'll let yoi know which one you need.

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« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2011, 10:54:53 AM »
I just tried inserting a W23 foam windscreen into a dead rat for an AT BP4025 just for giggles.
Well . . . the rat had been stored for a while.  I can't describe here what searching for the opening reminded me of.
Never was good at finding those.  ;D

Dave
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MiniMe, MiniMP, AND ANNOUNCING the recent adoption of a Mini-Dac. The little bro's are SO excited  :yahoo:

DR-680, DR-100 MKII, PMD671, fr2LE, MTII

De gustibus non est disputandum.
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Re: Wind protection options and preference?
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2011, 11:28:30 AM »
Last night I got to thinking; there are other windscreen methods other then just the standard foamies which most use. Is there an order of wind noise prevention? e.g. deadrats & foam work better for stiffer wind then just foamies.

Specifically, I'm curious about ballgags and standard foam. Also, what works better; ballgags with rats over them or foam with rats covering it? DSatz once spoke about how foam close to the cap can change the pattern slightly, would having the extra space yeild a more appropriate pattern, or would the plastic mesh of the ball effectively negate any advantages in terms of frequency response or imaging?

(I almost titled this "Protection options and preferences. (Furry Ballgag content)" but decided against it at the last moment.)

I use W23's on 460b's
http://www.akg.com/site/products/powerslave,id,135,pid,135,nodeid,2,_language,EN.html

I wonder how effective it would be to give those a fur coat?
Couldn't be too heavy though since there's no rigid support.
They might look good with fuzzy dice on them. ;D

Rycote make special Windjammers that go over foam windshields like this to improve the wind protection.

I thought Rycote's fit just their windscreens. (the W18/32 models among others)


like john said.  i know rycote has jammers that r made to go over most of the schoeps wind screens for more protection.  the Roade dead kitten goes over small factory wind screns well.  ed












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