Topic: Which high-end cardioids?

[ianmacd]

Currently, I record everything I go to with DPA 4060 > MMA6000 > R-09HR. The omnis are fine for most of my purposes, because almost everything is a standing gig and I record with my head in the stack. Crowd noise and boominess aren't really issues.

This year, however, I've got a number of arena shows coming up. Some of those are assigned seating and I can't pick and choose my recording location. Omnis won't excel there, so this is the perfect time to purchase some high-end cardioids.

The obvious choice, given my experience with DPA and my dearth of experience with anything else high-end, is the 4021/2/3 range. I know the cabling differences between the three, but I'm still not sure which to pick. When might it be useful to have LEMO connectors, for example? And if I'm pinning these mics to my jacket, do I want a rear connector, or would a side connector make it easier to aim the mics?

To avoid the need for a new battery box to interface between the mics and the R-09HR, I'm also looking to invest in a new recorder. The Roland R-44 is an obvious choice, but rather large and stealth is of paramount importance here. Given that requirement, the pick of the bunch seems to be the Marantz PMD-661. If anyone has any strong feelings about that choice, pro or con, I'd be interested in hearing them, but maybe I should start a second thread for that. I mention it here, because the purchase is directly related to the mic purchase. If I do get the PMD-661, I'll probably order through Oade and get their concert mod. They don't ship to Europe, though, so I'd have to use a freight forwarder and risk being slapped with massive import duties when the package gets here. It's probably still worth doing, though, to get that mod. I sometimes record acoustic music, so maybe the Super mod would be applicable, too. Opinions?

None of these decisions is set in stone at the moment. I'd consider Schoeps instead of DPA if I thought there was a good reason, but I've heard that Schoeps mics tend to colour the sound, producing warmth, which I'm not sure I want, as I'm someone who favours transparency. I have no experience with Schoeps, though. I suppose the equivalent of the 4021/2/3 is the CCM 4. Is that right? I believe those contain amps and could thus be plugged straight into the PMD-661.

Lots of new ground for me to break here and some potentially very expensive mistakes to avoid. 

Any help navigating the minefield would be very much appreciated.

[H₂O]

There's also the CCM5 (cardiod/omni switchable) - on the Schoeps side you would want to look at the L version (Lemo connectors) - This provides a slight HF boost though so I don't know you want that.

Also there is the new DPA Compact series (i.e. ST4011C)

http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/products.aspx?c=Item&category=267&item=24428

Some other options as well is the Schoeps MK4/KCY and a PFA - which may be had inexpensively versus the CCM or possibly DPA 402x series.

[yousef]

I run both 4060s and 4022s and am over the moon with both. Not gone under the radar with the 4022s yet but it will come.

I think you might need to think about your mounting plan with the 402x - "pinning" is not something I would want to do to them. They wouldn't particularly lend themselves to this anyway.

One thing to consider is that if you're only going to be running these mics in non-open situations, the difference between them and AT-853s or CA14s might not be worth the huge extra outlay. There is a thread (started by Adrianf, I think) that covered much of this ground a couple of weeks ago that might be worth a read.

DOI: I think arena shows are of the devil. I wouldn't even go to one, let alone spend £2000+ on new gear to tape them...

[ianmacd]

Also there is the new DPA Compact series (i.e. ST4011C)

http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/products.aspx?c=Item&category=267&item=24428

Can those be plugged straight in or do they need a separate pre-amp? It's not clear from the page. If no amp is needed, then it's unclear to me what the major differences are between the 4011c and the 4021/2/3. I don't even know what the price difference is, because I'm having trouble locating an on-line European retailer.

Some other options as well is the Schoeps MK4/KCY and a PFA - which may be had inexpensively versus the CCM or possibly DPA 402x series.

More options... and I was trying to narrow it down.

[aaronji]

Also there is the new DPA Compact series (i.e. ST4011C)

http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/products.aspx?c=Item&category=267&item=24428

Can those be plugged straight in or do they need a separate pre-amp? It's not clear from the page. If no amp is needed, then it's unclear to me what the major differences are between the 4011c and the 4021/2/3. I don't even know what the price difference is, because I'm having trouble locating an on-line European retailer.

Both need a phantom power source, whether that's a recorder which does P48, a pre, or a phantom power supply (like the PS-2).  And it is on the page, under the specifications tab.

Some other options as well is the Schoeps MK4/KCY and a PFA - which may be had inexpensively versus the CCM or possibly DPA 402x series.

More options... and I was trying to narrow it down.

There are other options to consider as well, such as the various active set-ups and things like the P48 tinybox.

Personally, I would suggest poking around here a bit more and also listen to some samples to get an idea of which flavor you prefer.

DOI: I think arena shows are of the devil. I wouldn't even go to one, let alone spend £2000+ on new gear to tape them...

Especially with crappy seats...No matter how expensive your mics are, they aren't going to compensate for bad seats in an acoustically poor arena.  Better to trade up for some better tickets...

[page]

Arrggg... I need to type faster. 3 replies while I was sitting here diddling away...

F. me, a 4th. I'm hitting post to hell with it. 

To avoid the need for a new battery box to interface between the mics and the R-09HR, I'm also looking to invest in a new recorder. The Roland R-44 is an obvious choice, but rather large and stealth is of paramount importance here. Given that requirement, the pick of the bunch seems to be the Marantz PMD-661. If anyone has any strong feelings about that choice, pro or con, I'd be interested in hearing them, but maybe I should start a second thread for that. I mention it here, because the purchase is directly related to the mic purchase. If I do get the PMD-661, I'll probably order through Oade and get their concert mod. They don't ship to Europe, though, so I'd have to use a freight forwarder and risk being slapped with massive import duties when the package gets here. It's probably still worth doing, though, to get that mod. I sometimes record acoustic music, so maybe the Super mod would be applicable, too. Opinions?

An alternative to the 661 would be to look at a tinybox preamp, but you're in the same boat in that getting it to Europe will take some work. The reason I toss out the tinybox is depending on your arrangement and stealthing setup, you may find 2 small boxes (the tinybox and the edirol) to work better than 1 bigger box.

Also there is the new DPA Compact series (i.e. ST4011C)

http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/products.aspx?c=Item&category=267&item=24428

Can those be plugged straight in or do they need a separate pre-amp? It's not clear from the page. If no amp is needed, then it's unclear to me what the major differences are between the 4011c and the 4021/2/3. I don't even know what the price difference is, because I'm having trouble locating an on-line European retailer.

All of the referenced mics/setups so far (except for the kcy/mk4 one) need P48. The kcy/mk4 setup needs a specific set of adaptors to require P48 or a special preamp to power the caps without phantom power.

If you decide to go with the DPA 402x series, then you will likely be hunting around for "new" stock or buying used. DPA recently discontinued that line when they debuted the mmp-c bodies and changable capsule system which had a few improvements on the older design except if you're stealth taping as the bodies grew an inch. We can point you in the direction of finding a used pair of 402x, but thats something to keep in mind. Sonically, they are the same capsules. I've seen one vendor in the US who still lists the 402x series, and the cap/body combo of the new system is comparable, but slightly cheaper. Whether or not they have any is a different question.

Some other options as well is the Schoeps MK4/KCY and a PFA - which may be had inexpensively versus the CCM or possibly DPA 402x series.

More options... and I was trying to narrow it down.

and I have some more as well:

None of these decisions is set in stone at the moment. I'd consider Schoeps instead of DPA if I thought there was a good reason, but I've heard that Schoeps mics tend to colour the sound, producing warmth, which I'm not sure I want, as I'm someone who favours transparency. I have no experience with Schoeps, though. I suppose the equivalent of the 4021/2/3 is the CCM 4. Is that right? I believe those contain amps and could thus be plugged straight into the PMD-661.

Well, they do, but whether or not thats a good thing or a bad thing is largely dependant upon user preferences. Some here really like the color/signature sound, others don't.

But yes, the CCM4 and CCM4V are the schoeps small cardioids. If you do go that route and choose a tinybox, you may consider doing the mk capsule>kcy>tinybox which may be cheaper than the ccm line. Also, the Sennheiser 8040 cardioids can work if you remove the rear housing and build a cable that connects the capsule to a P48 provider. The rear housing on the 8040 is just to convert up to a full sized XLR.

would a side connector make it easier to aim the mics?

Speaking from experience and as yousef sort of notes, consider devising a new mounting method. It's not impossible to do what you're suggesting, but you're moving up to mics that are generally larger and more picky about how they are aimed. I found that when I was stealthing with cardioids, the restrictions your setup placed on me were not optimal. ymmv.

[ianmacd]

I think you might need to think about your mounting plan with the 402x - "pinning" is not something I would want to do to them. They wouldn't particularly lend themselves to this anyway.

When I said "pinning", I meant "clamping", but I'll assume your point still stands. What would you do to fix them in place, then, assuming a stealth situation?

One thing to consider is that if you're only going to be running these mics in non-open situations, the difference between them and AT-853s or CA14s might not be worth the huge extra outlay.

That will be the case some of the time. If I could't gain the benefit from them in a stealth situation, it wouldn't be worth it to me, since that's the majority of my work.

There is a thread (started by Adrianf, I think) that covered much of this ground a couple of weeks ago that might be worth a read.

Thank you. I will look for it.

DOI: I think arena shows are of the devil. I wouldn't even go to one, let alone spend £2000+ on new gear to tape them...

When I say "arena", I'm making a broad sweep. For example, I'd never go to a football stadium to see a gig, let alone record it. I'd rather miss whoever it is. I feel the same way about outdoor festivals, for the most part.

However, I'll very occasionally visit a large indoor arena, such as Amsterdam's Ziggo Dome. A little more frequently, I'll find myself in a large indoor theatre, such as an opera house or classical concert hall. I also have one gig later this year in an outdoor Roman amphitheatre. These are all events that I would imagine I'd use the new cardioids to record.

Most of my work is in small clubs, though, which is why the omnis have done me proud for so long.

[page]

I think you might need to think about your mounting plan with the 402x - "pinning" is not something I would want to do to them. They wouldn't particularly lend themselves to this anyway.

When I said "pinning", I meant "clamping", but I'll assume your point still stands. What would you do to fix them in place, then, assuming a stealth situation?

PM Sent.

[ianmacd]

Can those be plugged straight in or do they need a separate pre-amp? It's not clear from the page. If no amp is needed, then it's unclear to me what the major differences are between the 4011c and the 4021/2/3.

Both need a phantom power source, whether that's a recorder which does P48, a pre, or a phantom power supply (like the PS-2).  And it is on the page, under the specifications tab.

I actually saw that, but given my level of ignorance, it still didn't answer my question.

I wasn't sure whether having a P48 power source on its own was enough. From reading some manufacturers' documentation, I have been getting the impression that some mics need a separate amp and can't just be plugged into the P48 jacks of the recorder. From what you say, that appears to be a false assumption on my part.

However, that does now mean that I don't really understand the difference between the 4011c and the 402x range. I can read the descriptions and specs of both and see that they're not identical, but I don't know enough to translate the differences into thoughts that I can use to arrive at a purchasing decision.

There are other options to consider as well, such as the various active set-ups and things like the P48 tinybox.

Yes, although I want to avoid buying equipment from US-based boutique manufacturers if I can. In fact, I'd rather do all of my buying in Europe, except for the PMD-661 with Oade mod, obviously. The customs duties here are merciless and if I had to send anything back to the US for repairs and/or modification, I'd risk getting hit with fees multiple times. European warranties are often better, too.

[page]

Can those be plugged straight in or do they need a separate pre-amp? It's not clear from the page. If no amp is needed, then it's unclear to me what the major differences are between the 4011c and the 4021/2/3.

Both need a phantom power source, whether that's a recorder which does P48, a pre, or a phantom power supply (like the PS-2).  And it is on the page, under the specifications tab.

I actually saw that, but given my level of ignorance, it still didn't answer my question.

I wasn't sure whether having a P48 power source on its own was enough. From reading some manufacturers' documentation, I have been getting the impression that some mics need a separate amp and can't just be plugged into the P48 jacks of the recorder. From what you say, that appears to be a false assumption on my part.

However, that does now mean that I don't really understand the difference between the 4011c and the 402x range. I can read the descriptions and specs of both and see that they're not identical, but I don't know enough to translate the differences into thoughts that I can use to arrive at a purchasing decision.

The quick and dirty that I can think of is the new system has a longer unit than the older 402x units. This was done in an attempt to create a ballanced connection, improve the noise specs, and offer a removable capsule setup. In general; if your stealthing and worried about bigger mics, get the older ones, if you're not stealthing, then I personally don't see any reason to pick up the older units unless you are only getting one polar pattern and you get a great deal by buying used. My disclaimer being that I just baught the newer ones. 

[acidjack]

I run both 4060s and 4022s and am over the moon with both. Not gone under the radar with the 4022s yet but it will come.

I think you might need to think about your mounting plan with the 402x - "pinning" is not something I would want to do to them. They wouldn't particularly lend themselves to this anyway.

One thing to consider is that if you're only going to be running these mics in non-open situations, the difference between them and AT-853s or CA14s might not be worth the huge extra outlay. There is a thread (started by Adrianf, I think) that covered much of this ground a couple of weeks ago that might be worth a read.

DOI: I think arena shows are of the devil. I wouldn't even go to one, let alone spend £2000+ on new gear to tape them...

Not something you should or probably even can.

The 4021 is the absolute smallest because of the fixed RA cabling. That is what I used to have.  That cable entry can supposedly become fragile and break, though I never had an issue. The lemo version is more expensive, and also longer, but a more stable connector.

4021>v2 tinybox is a nice small rig.

With Schoeps you have tons of options.  The CCM series are beautiful little mics, but you pay a premium. The "cheaper" Schoeps solutions involve using either their CMR or KCY cables and running into something like a Naiant tinybox.

In your position, I'd consider some used 402x at the right price and a v2 tinybox.  That will set you back about $2300 depending what type of used prices you get.

With the Schoeps, depending how you go, the caps will be at least $1000 (used; MK4s matched are ~$1700 new), then depending on the cabling, another $600-900 (the KCY is $900, it's probably the best cable for stealth).  Then the tinybox for another $220.  Thus, whereas they weren't before, Schoeps and DPA can be pretty similar in price.

[yousef]

That will be the case some of the time. If I could't gain the benefit from them in a stealth situation, it wouldn't be worth it to me, since that's the majority of my work.

I'm sure page's PM will have filled you in re stealth mounting... As I type, I'm listening back to a rough mix of 4022s + board feed of a gig Stephen and me taped on Wednesday night and it is just lovely - if you do go for these mics and end up openly taping with them, I'm sure you're going to be happy.

When I say "arena", I'm making a broad sweep. For example, I'd never go to a football stadium to see a gig, let alone record it. I'd rather miss whoever it is. I feel the same way about outdoor festivals, for the most part.

I'm practically allergic to anything with over about 800 capacity but a nice theatre holding about 2000 and a decent set of cards - nice...

[Teen Age Riot]

MBHO caps would be another, less expensive possibility:

KA 200N (cardioid) or KA 500HN (hyper-cardioid) caps: ~500 euros
capsule attachments: ~300 euros
Naiant Tinybox (incl. cable, shipping and customs): ~280 euros

[aaronji]

The quick and dirty that I can think of is the new system has a longer unit than the older 402x units. This was done in an attempt to create a ballanced connection, improve the noise specs, and offer a removable capsule setup. In general; if your stealthing and worried about bigger mics, get the older ones, if you're not stealthing, then I personally don't see any reason to pick up the older units unless you are only getting one polar pattern and you get a great deal by buying used. My disclaimer being that I just baught the newer ones. 

I think the new ones are pretty stealth-able.  Not as small as the 402x, true, but manageable without too much additional trouble.  And with the added pluses of the switchable caps and more flexibility in terms of cables.  Like you said, if you want to have multiple polar patterns, it's much cheaper to buy a new pair of caps than a second pair of the old-style compacts (~ $1000 difference, if I recall correctly).

[aaronji]

Yes, although I want to avoid buying equipment from US-based boutique manufacturers if I can. In fact, I'd rather do all of my buying in Europe, except for the PMD-661 with Oade mod, obviously. The customs duties here are merciless and if I had to send anything back to the US for repairs and/or modification, I'd risk getting hit with fees multiple times. European warranties are often better, too.

Since the tinybox is so much cheaper than the Oade 661, you'll save money on the duties too. 

What always irritates me most about all those fees is the 19% BTW (value-added tax) on the shipping costs...

[ianmacd]

Not something you should or probably even can.

Do clips even exist for the 402x or are the mics too heavy?

The 4021 is the absolute smallest because of the fixed RA cabling. That is what I used to have.  That cable entry can supposedly become fragile and break, though I never had an issue. The lemo version is more expensive, and also longer, but a more stable connector.

May I ask what you use now instead of the 4021s?

4021>v2 tinybox is a nice small rig.

You mean if I kept using the R-09HR, right? I wouldn't need the Tinybox with the PMD-661, would I?

With Schoeps you have tons of options.  The CCM series are beautiful little mics, but you pay a premium. The "cheaper" Schoeps solutions involve using either their CMR or KCY cables and running into something like a Naiant tinybox.

I like the look of the CCM 4V. I assume those plug straight into P48. Is that correct? The product page doesn't actually say. All of the mic manufacturers assume more knowledge than I have. 

In your position, I'd consider some used 402x at the right price and a v2 tinybox.  That will set you back about $2300 depending what type of used prices you get.

Again, I assume you mean for use with the R-09HR. If not, why is the Tinybox needed?

With the Schoeps, depending how you go, the caps will be at least $1000 (used; MK4s matched are ~$1700 new), then depending on the cabling, another $600-900 (the KCY is $900, it's probably the best cable for stealth).  Then the tinybox for another $220.

I find the Schoeps stuff particularly confusing. If I understand things correctly, the CCM 4 is basically the MK 4, but with the amp built in, so that none of the KCY, CMR and Tinybox or Schoeps pre-amps are needed. Is that correct? Oh, please tell me it is.

If I'm right, the CCM 4 and CCM 4V come with cables that allow them to plug straight into P48 XLR sockets. Correct?

Thanks everyone for all of the replies so far and all of the gentle hand-holding. The rig I have now is very straightforward. Outside of that, it's a big , confusing world.

[StuStu]

I find the Schoeps stuff particularly confusing. If I understand things correctly, the CCM 4 is basically the MK 4, but with the amp built in, so that none of the KCY, CMR and Tinybox or Schoeps pre-amps are needed. Is that correct? Oh, please tell me it is.

If I'm right, the CCM 4 and CCM 4V come with cables that allow them to plug straight into P48 XLR sockets. Correct?

Thanks everyone for all of the replies so far and all of the gentle hand-holding. The rig I have now is very straightforward. Outside of that, it's a big , confusing world.



You are correct. The good thing about the confusion is that it's caused by Schoeps many options. For me, the inability to switch caps made me decide to go a different route than the CCMs.


I chose the 4023 largely because it can used with any Schoeps/NOLA or Kwon bars.

[ianmacd]

Arrggg... I need to type faster. 3 replies while I was sitting here diddling away...

Yes, they're coming fast and furious. I somehow missed your reply until now. I wish I hadn't, because later replies assumed knowledge in your response. Reading this now, it makes things others have said since much clearer.

An alternative to the 661 would be to look at a tinybox preamp, but you're in the same boat in that getting it to Europe will take some work. The reason I toss out the tinybox is depending on your arrangement and stealthing setup, you may find 2 small boxes (the tinybox and the edirol) to work better than 1 bigger box.

The Aerco MP2 would be an option then, too, right? Maybe that's a bit bigger. That's another boutique product I'd have to import, but that's not insurmountable.

Of course, no pre-amp has the geek appeal of a new recorder like the 661. I'm trying hard to be objective, but the 661 beckons and is just looking for an excuse to be ordered. 

All of the referenced mics/setups so far (except for the kcy/mk4 one) need P48. The kcy/mk4 setup needs a specific set of adaptors to require P48 or a special preamp to power the caps without phantom power.

Thanks. Loud and clear.

The KCY solution still requires a pre-map, if I understand the product correctly. The CMR, on the other hand, is a pre-amp. Acidjack said the KCY was better for stealth, but they both look like thin cables in the pictures. Oh, I guess he meant that you cut out the need for a separate pre-amp, so the rig as a whole is more compact. Clunk. That was the sound of the penny finally dropping.

Yes, so MK4 + KCY + 661 is looking very nice, because you can switch the caps and go from wide all the way to hyper, relatively cheaply. Well, cheaply by Schoeps standards, at any rate. It beats having to buy a bunch of CCMs. Not that I ever would, because of the price, but I can imagine one day adding another set of caps when I reach the point of convincing myself I need them.

If you decide to go with the DPA 402x series, then you will likely be hunting around for "new" stock or buying used. DPA recently discontinued that line when they debuted the mmp-c bodies and changable capsule system which had a few improvements on the older design except if you're stealth taping as the bodies grew an inch.

Ah, interesting. I had no idea they had been discontinued.

The new system looks great. Somehow, I'd hardly seen any references to those model numbers, so I skipped over them in my quest for more information on the 402x range, which I knew to be more or less what I was looking for. That shows the danger of jumping to conclusions.

So, yes, a couple of MMP-C amps and MMC4011 caps would fit the bill very well, leaving the door open for MMC4006 caps later on. Then there's the MMC2011, which is a lot cheaper. I can see that it's a twin diaphragm mic, but again, that doesn't explain the price difference to a layman like myself.

Do the MMP-C amps come with cables or do those need to be purchased separately?

Speaking from experience and as yousef sort of notes, consider devising a new mounting method. It's not impossible to do what you're suggesting, but you're moving up to mics that are generally larger and more picky about how they are aimed. I found that when I was stealthing with cardioids, the restrictions your setup placed on me were not optimal. ymmv.

I'm happy to use a different mounting method. I mentioned clamping them only because that's what I do now with the 4060s. It's not optimal, but there are only so many places on the body that you can put them. You sent me a PM about that, though, so I'll respond to that separately.

[hi and lo]

Here's my hastily typed take on this, in no particular order, having owned just about everything except the 402x series:

I wouldn't automatically assume that 406x mics will sound bad in a seated venue where you cannot hug the stacks. I have heard and made plenty of amazing recordings done with omni's in massive arenas. It's natural to assume that cardioids are going to give you less reverberation and "pull" the sound source closer, but the actual benefit cardioids provide is much less exaggerated. If you have bad seats, it is going to sound reverberant regardless of directional pattern. Cardioids will greatly reduce the pickup of chatty kathys immediately behind you, but will only slightly minimize arena echo.

While it's true that Schoeps and DPA have different colorations, be careful about aligning yourself to either. Avoid forming any opinions without listening yourself because there is an endless amount of bad advice on this forum. Too many fluffers or people throwing out horrible generalizations like "Schoeps are dark/muddy" without having ever owned more than the one brand of mics they can afford and having an almost non-existent understanding of the subtleties of, for example, mk4s vs mk5s.

With that said, my thoughts on DPAs vs Schoeps are as follows. I do not think the 402x series, with their ruler flat freq response, is a very good option for what we do. I've heard plenty of terrific 4021 recordings (3 pairs have been run by team nyctaper), but when you're recording in less than optimal conditions I do not think their frequency response is very forgiving. If you are recording a grand piano in Carnegie Hall, I'll take DPAs all day long, but that's not where we record. For that reason, I generally prefer the HF emphasis of Schoeps MK5s or MK4vs and even prefer MK4s, to a degree, over the DPAs. The 406x series should not factor into this thought process because their primary advantage is being extremely small in size.

For a recorder, I have not seen anyone mention the Tascam DR-100 MKII yet. I would casually recommend this over the Marantz 661, but I haven't owned either. The Tascam is smaller and does most everything the Marantz does (phantom, digital in, internal mics) with better powering options. The R44 is definitely not an option and the only other recorder I would recommend is the M10, but then you'll need an external phantom power source.

For the Schoeps, I would not recommend the CCM series unless you've got money burning a whole in your pocket. Their cost is outrageous and if you pick up CCM4s, it would be impossible for most to afford a pair of CCM41s. I think Schoeps is doing a bit of a disservice by not offering them with interchangeable caps because I know they could, but they probably make a lot of money on these and doing so would really hurt their bottom line. I know a few people that stealth CCM4s, but they also bought them 10 years ago at half the price.

For an active stealth solution, the reutelhuber/nbox setup is really the best thing out there. These active cables are much thinner than stock KC5s, making them ideal for running in hat, and Naiant can make the Tinybox or PFA for use with them. Nbox cables + PFA + tascam dr100 is basically the ideal setup and significantly cheaper than even a single CCM pair.

Again for Schoeps, be very careful about what capsule you are listening to. The MK4s are the most common, but they are also have the least HF emphasis and generally the reason people have an immediate adverse reaction to the brand. The 4vs, 5s, and 41s are the most optimal caps for what we do, with the advantages being as follows:

- 4vs and 5s have a similar HF emphasis, but 4vs are much easier to run in hat while being less optimal to run on a stand (at least I think so).
- 5s have the switchable pattern, making them the single best value out there.
- 41s are, imo, the best hyper on the planet.

If I stealthed more I would get the 4vs, but I don't so I sold the 4vs and kept my 5s (having owned both simultaneously).

Lastly, while I can't recommend MHBOs because they have almost no bass response, I would keep in mind that active solutions are likely on the way for AKGs and Gefells. I have always loved AKGs (not so much gefells) and believe they will be a good bit cheaper.

[hi and lo]

CMRs are not a preamp. They are a low-voltage microphone body replacement and are advantageous mostly because of their cost and ease of powering. You will still need a PFA + 12 or 48v phantom as well as the gain of an external preamp of the mic input of your recorder. With that said, CMR > PFA > 661 or DR-100 MKII is a very sick setup.

[aaronji]

The Aerco MP2 would be an option then, too, right? Maybe that's a bit bigger. That's another boutique product I'd have to import, but that's not insurmountable.

Small battery-powered pre-amps with an 1/8" out include (in addition to tinybox) the Aerco MP-2 (as you mentioned), the Sound Devices MP-2/MixPre/MixPre-D (plus the Shure version; FP-24 maybe), and the Sonosax SX-M2.  Oh, and the littlebox.  Not all of those are still in production.  And I am sure that is not an exhaustive list...

Of course, no pre-amp has the geek appeal of a new recorder like the 661. I'm trying hard to be objective, but the 661 beckons and is just looking for an excuse to be ordered. 

Really???  Personally, I think the pres have more geek appeal than the recorders, not to mention a bigger effect on the sound...

[newplanet7]

So you are up for an all in one recorder?
The tascam dr100mkII has digi in p48 and a slew of other features and is half of what the 661 is. I think either would be an ok choice for just
stealthing and running straight in. It's also smaller than the 661.

[acidjack]

I can't snip all these quotes, but:

- Yes, I think the 4021s are too heavy to "clip" and there is no such thing. Generally hats are your friend
- I run Schoeps in a variety of setups, but hardly ever stealth. When I do I usually run 4061s.  I mean, I eventually *will* stealth with my Schoeps, but that's not my primary concern.  That said, I think Schoeps>tinybox is a great setup - it's comparable to the DPAs, not necessarily "better" or "worse".  FWIW I prefer the sound of the DPA 4021 to the Schoeps MK4.  In taping situations, it depends. Sometimes I believe the Schoeps MK5 and MK4V are superior to the DPAs for what we do; I never have felt that way about 4021 vs. MK4.  The 4021s are very clean and transparent, for good or ill.
- With DPA 402x>PMD661 that's all you need. Dan aka nyctaper ran 4021>PMD660 as his stealth rig for years and got great results. The 661 is smaller.

Schoeps do make it a tad confusing, but let me see if I can help a little:

MKx = a capsule (4=cardiod, 4V=vertical-address cardiod, 5=switchable cardiod/omni, 2=omni, 41=supercardiod, etc.)
KCx = a cable
CCM = a compact body
CMC = a normal-sized body
CMR = a compact Schoeps cable designed for use with remote systems, but also useful for taping, which is about the size of a CCM and can be run off of less power (hence its popularity with the first tinybox)

Those are the main abbreviations you'll see.  The numbers stay consistent.  So the "CCM4" means a compact cardiod mic (for which you cannot switch the caps).  MK4>CMC6 means "MK4 capsules running into CMC6 bodies" 

Personally, I would not go with CCMs even though they sound awesome, just because the price is higher than the various other Schoeps setups.  That is the beauty of Schoeps - lots of versatility, plus of course uncompromising world-class quality.  DPA is a bit less versatile but the quality is outstanding if not better in terms of build and sound *in the right situation*

I generally agree with all of hi and lo's comments, fwiw, though he's a little harsh on the DPAs  I do agree that the MK4 is the cap that "gives Schoeps a bad name with some" if you can call it that.  It is darker and has a flatter response, whereas the MK5 and MK4V have intentionally non-flat responses.  My favorite Schoeps caps are the MK41 and the MK5.  My opinion is that *relative to other manufacturers* the MK41 is the most impressive, meaning - DPA, AKG, Milab, Neumann etc. all make a great cardiod mic.  Nobody makes a hypercardiod mic IMHO with the richness of the MK41.  [ducks as fluffers of AKG 63s, etc. etc. chime in]  The MK41 was ultimately the main reason I got rid of the DPAs; it was just easier to run one system. 

Oh, one other point, you would need an additional custom solution to go KCY>661.  The KCY is terminated in a binder connector.  Naiant can build tinyboxes that work with KCY, but to go KCY>any random preamp you need a special "PFA" which is a sort of hybridized Naiant + other people solution (the primary technology is the Naiant PFA, which perhaps is the most ingenious of all of Jon's products...)

Going with your stated goal of remaining in Europe and NOT using U.S. custom gear (plenty of good reasons for that), DPA 4021>661 is the most achievable for you.

Not something you should or probably even can.

Do clips even exist for the 402x or are the mics too heavy?

The 4021 is the absolute smallest because of the fixed RA cabling. That is what I used to have.  That cable entry can supposedly become fragile and break, though I never had an issue. The lemo version is more expensive, and also longer, but a more stable connector.

May I ask what you use now instead of the 4021s?

4021>v2 tinybox is a nice small rig.

You mean if I kept using the R-09HR, right? I wouldn't need the Tinybox with the PMD-661, would I?

With Schoeps you have tons of options.  The CCM series are beautiful little mics, but you pay a premium. The "cheaper" Schoeps solutions involve using either their CMR or KCY cables and running into something like a Naiant tinybox.

I like the look of the CCM 4V. I assume those plug straight into P48. Is that correct? The product page doesn't actually say. All of the mic manufacturers assume more knowledge than I have. 

In your position, I'd consider some used 402x at the right price and a v2 tinybox.  That will set you back about $2300 depending what type of used prices you get.

Again, I assume you mean for use with the R-09HR. If not, why is the Tinybox needed?

With the Schoeps, depending how you go, the caps will be at least $1000 (used; MK4s matched are ~$1700 new), then depending on the cabling, another $600-900 (the KCY is $900, it's probably the best cable for stealth).  Then the tinybox for another $220.

I find the Schoeps stuff particularly confusing. If I understand things correctly, the CCM 4 is basically the MK 4, but with the amp built in, so that none of the KCY, CMR and Tinybox or Schoeps pre-amps are needed. Is that correct? Oh, please tell me it is.

If I'm right, the CCM 4 and CCM 4V come with cables that allow them to plug straight into P48 XLR sockets. Correct?

Thanks everyone for all of the replies so far and all of the gentle hand-holding. The rig I have now is very straightforward. Outside of that, it's a big , confusing world.

[darktrain]

check this thread, it also has a link to the cmr thread

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=136697.0

here is my lma link which has some cmr shows(most of my stuff is "less than open" -  http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%22darktrain%22

and heres my "less than open shows"  http://www.dimeadozen.org/account-details.php?id=139519

if you want to see what the cmr setup is capable of

[ianmacd]

I wouldn't automatically assume that 406x mics will sound bad in a seated venue where you cannot hug the stacks. I have heard and made plenty of amazing recordings done with omni's in massive arenas. It's natural to assume that cardioids are going to give you less reverberation and "pull" the sound source closer, but the actual benefit cardioids provide is much less exaggerated.

First of all, thank you for your long and detailed response.

Yes, I've made some decent recordings in seated venues with the 4060s. They turned out surprisingly well, but instead of leaving it at that, the perfectionist in me started to imagine what I could have achieved with cardioids.

It's good to get a reality check from someone with lots of experience in this area that cardioids aren't a magic wand.

While it's true that Schoeps and DPA have different colorations, be careful about aligning yourself to either. Avoid forming any opinions without listening yourself because there is an endless amount of bad advice on this forum. Too many fluffers or people throwing out horrible generalizations like "Schoeps are dark/muddy" without having ever owned more than the one brand of mics they can afford and having an almost non-existent understanding of the subtleties of, for example, mk4s vs mk5s.

Great advice. Thanks. From a novice's perspective, it's all too easy to read the same comment 100 times about product X and start to believe it, even when one has never heard it with one's own ears.

I'll hold off on forming an opinion on Schoeps vs. DPA cardioids until I've heard samples of each recorded from the same source material.

I do not think the 402x series, with their ruler flat freq response, is a very good option for what we do. I've heard plenty of terrific 4021 recordings (3 pairs have been run by team nyctaper), but when you're recording in less than optimal conditions I do not think their frequency response is very forgiving.

Yes. That may even be true across the range of DPA mics. There are often times when I'd like a little more HF response, but the 4060s give me exactly what my ears heard, for better or worse.

For a recorder, I have not seen anyone mention the Tascam DR-100 MKII yet. I would casually recommend this over the Marantz 661, but I haven't owned either. The Tascam is smaller and does most everything the Marantz does (phantom, digital in, internal mics) with better powering options.

It's a lot cheaper than the 661, that's for sure. What's the catch? With no first-hand knowledge of either, assuming the feature sets are roughly equivalent, I'd have to wonder about build quality. Or are the Marantz units just overpriced for what they are?

For the Schoeps, I would not recommend the CCM series unless you've got money burning a whole in your pocket. Their cost is outrageous and if you pick up CCM4s, it would be impossible for most to afford a pair of CCM41s.

Yes, I'd pretty much already ruled those out on the basis of cost and inflexibility.

For an active stealth solution, the reutelhuber/nbox setup is really the best thing out there. These active cables are much thinner than stock KC5s, making them ideal for running in hat, and Naiant can make the Tinybox or PFA for use with them. Nbox cables + PFA + tascam dr100 is basically the ideal setup and significantly cheaper than even a single CCM pair.

Understood, although it would be nice not to need a separate battery box or pre-amp. One point of failure fewer in the chain, is what I'm thinking. The nice thing about the DPA 402x and the MMP-C range of capsules is that P48 is all that's needed.

The 4vs, 5s, and 41s are the most optimal caps for what we do, with the advantages being as follows:

- 4vs and 5s have a similar HF emphasis, but 4vs are much easier to run in hat while being less optimal to run on a stand (at least I think so).
- 5s have the switchable pattern, making them the single best value out there.
- 41s are, imo, the best hyper on the planet.

If I stealthed more I would get the 4vs, but I don't so I sold the 4vs and kept my 5s (having owned both simultaneously).

Again, thanks.

[page]

(snip) I have always loved AKGs (not so much gefells)

We'll never be able to share gear or produce anything together; we have such vastly different preferences. (gefell > akg, dpa > schoeps, sweet jeebus what else...)

Of course, no pre-amp has the geek appeal of a new recorder like the 661. I'm trying hard to be objective, but the 661 beckons and is just looking for an excuse to be ordered. 

Really???  Personally, I think the pres have more geek appeal than the recorders, not to mention a bigger effect on the sound...

agree with aaron on this one. I think very few recorders under $1k have more geek appeal than preamps under $1k.

For a recorder, I have not seen anyone mention the Tascam DR-100 MKII yet. I would casually recommend this over the Marantz 661, but I haven't owned either. The Tascam is smaller and does most everything the Marantz does (phantom, digital in, internal mics) with better powering options.

It's a lot cheaper than the 661, that's for sure. What's the catch? With no first-hand knowledge of either, assuming the feature sets are roughly equivalent, I'd have to wonder about build quality. Or are the Marantz units just overpriced for what they are?

There are a couple of threads here about the marantz units and the new tascam (tonedeaf here baught one and did a big review on it). Look around in the recorder section of the forum and they should be easy to find.

[F.O.Bean]

I would either go with the 402x DPA/B+K's, or the Schoeps MK4/CCM4/KCY Route

[ianmacd]

I would either go with the 402x DPA/B+K's, or the Schoeps MK4/CCM4/KCY Route

What is/are B+K's?

[F.O.Bean]

The old name for DPA's

[ianmacd]

- Yes, I think the 4021s are too heavy to "clip" and there is no such thing. Generally hats are your friend
- I run Schoeps in a variety of setups, but hardly ever stealth. When I do I usually run 4061s.  I mean, I eventually *will* stealth with my Schoeps, but that's not my primary concern.  That said, I think Schoeps>tinybox is a great setup - it's comparable to the DPAs, not necessarily "better" or "worse".  FWIW I prefer the sound of the DPA 4021 to the Schoeps MK4.  In taping situations, it depends. Sometimes I believe the Schoeps MK5 and MK4V are superior to the DPAs for what we do; I never have felt that way about 4021 vs. MK4.  The 4021s are very clean and transparent, for good or ill.

Thanks for those answers. There's no substitute for someone with first-hand experience.

Schoeps do make it a tad confusing, but let me see if I can help a little:

MKx = a capsule (4=cardiod, 4V=vertical-address cardiod, 5=switchable cardiod/omni, 2=omni, 41=supercardiod, etc.)
KCx = a cable
CCM = a compact body
CMC = a normal-sized body
CMR = a compact Schoeps cable designed for use with remote systems, but also useful for taping, which is about the size of a CCM and can be run off of less power (hence its popularity with the first tinybox)

Those are the main abbreviations you'll see.  The numbers stay consistent.  So the "CCM4" means a compact cardiod mic (for which you cannot switch the caps).  MK4>CMC6 means "MK4 capsules running into CMC6 bodies"

Thanks. I pretty much had it figured out now, but a glossary like yours on Schoeps' site would have saved me a lot of time.

Nobody makes a hypercardiod mic IMHO with the richness of the MK41.  [ducks as fluffers of AKG 63s, etc. etc. chime in]  The MK41 was ultimately the main reason I got rid of the DPAs; it was just easier to run one system. 

Again, I appreciate the opinion of someone with lots of first-hand experience.

Going with your stated goal of remaining in Europe and NOT using U.S. custom gear (plenty of good reasons for that), DPA 4021>661 is the most achievable for you.

Do you have an opinion about the 402x vs. MMP-C + MMC4011 capsules? The latter is much more appealing on paper, at least.

Cheers,

Ian

[StuStu]

Since you're not sure of which microphone maker you want, I highly recommend listening to a lot of recordings from various sources; even if they aren't from the same show. Eventually you'll understand the general feel of what each mic has or lacks. It's what I did when I decided to move away from AKG. Schoeps were not my original plan. After many hours of comparative listening, I chose Schoeps. I'm only saying they were the best choice for me personally. Since you're planning on spending a lot of money on an upgrade, take your time and get what best suits your ears. We all have our own preferences. I hope it works out well for you.

[page]

I'm only saying they were the best choice for me personally. Since you're planning on spending a lot of money on an upgrade, take your time and get what best suits your ears. We all have our own preferences. I hope it works out well for you.

QFT

I stalked my most recent purchase for months before finally dropping coinage for it.

So, yes, a couple of MMP-C amps and MMC4011 caps would fit the bill very well, leaving the door open for MMC4006 caps later on. Then there's the MMC2011, which is a lot cheaper. I can see that it's a twin diaphragm mic, but again, that doesn't explain the price difference to a layman like myself.

Do the MMP-C amps come with cables or do those need to be purchased separately?

The cables are separate sadly. (circa $200 for a pair)

The diaphragm and housing differences create a slightly different polar pattern and response. What I've found with the 2011/4011 differences are that the 4011s are flatter (the 2011s are brighter). The 2011s are a slightly tighter off axis pattern, and the 4011s have a smoother/consistant off axis pattern across the frequency spectrum. Second, the 2011 caps are an extra inch or so in length. Last, but certainly not least, the 2011 is about half price.

There is a recording that was made with 4006 and 2006 caps that would give you an idea of how the product lines stack up to each other. Thats the only recording comp between the two lines that I know of currently.

[acidjack]

Ian, for what you're doing, I'm not sure if the new DPAs would be "better" or not, but they are both (a) Larger and (B) More expensive.  They'll be $3600 (or the Euro conversion) new for the set with the smaller-sized cardiod caps; the larger, cheaper caps won't work for stealth.  And even the "compact" bodies are larger than the 402x series, though they are tiny.

If all things were held truly equal, which they never are, it sounds like Schoeps CCM4s or CCM41s (probably better) and a DR-100mkII or PMD661 would fit your requirements - stealthy, sounds amazing, easy to set up, no custom U.S. gear required.  The CCM41s (the compact hypercardiods) will sound beautiful wherever you are, are small, are easy to setup, etc. But they aren't cheap.  At all.

Beyond that, I'd still look back to used 4021s, so long as they were in excellent condition.  Or if you are less allergic to having *some* custom U.S. gear, Schoeps MK41>KCY>tinybox v2>M10.  I finally tried out my tinybox v2 last night at an open taping show; the pull is outstanding.  It's a good little preamp.

[ianmacd]

Ian, for what you're doing, I'm not sure if the new DPAs would be "better" or not, but they are both (a) Larger and (B) More expensive.  They'll be $3600 (or the Euro conversion) new for the set with the smaller-sized cardiod caps; the larger, cheaper caps won't work for stealth.  And even the "compact" bodies are larger than the 402x series, though they are tiny.

I hadn't noticed the big difference in length between the MMC 40xx and the MMC 20xx. The latter are more than twice the length of the former, so yeah, that makes them significantly less appealing. The MMC 4011s are about €1150 each here.

If all things were held truly equal, which they never are, it sounds like Schoeps CCM4s or CCM41s (probably better) and a DR-100mkII or PMD661 would fit your requirements - stealthy, sounds amazing, easy to set up, no custom U.S. gear required.  The CCM41s (the compact hypercardiods) will sound beautiful wherever you are, are small, are easy to setup, etc. But they aren't cheap.  At all.

Your reasoning has a lot of appeal: universally acclaimed mics, very small, no fuss and no custom gear needed.

I really do want to avoid the extra point of failure that extra pre-amps/adapters/battery boxes, etc. would introduce. U.S. manufactured boutique gear would also bring expensive postage in both directions if mods or repairs were required, plus the chance of getting hit multiple times with customs duties when those border guys fail to realise I already own the thing that has been sent to me. All in all, a hassle best avoided if possible.

There's very little that can go wrong with the set-up you describe, apart from severe damage to one's wallet and the resulting deterioration of one's matrimonial relationship. The CCM 41V is €2100 here. Ouch.

At some of the gigs I go to, beer occasionally goes flying overhead, dousing everyone and everything under it. When that happens now, I dab my 4060s and shrug it off as par for the course. With 2 of those CCM 41Vs, the necessary cables and a new recorder, I'd be carrying 5 grand's worth of gear on me. Like everything, though, I suppose I'd get used to the idea.

A couple of questions about the CCMs, since we're back on the subject. Would you recommend the verticals (the CCM 4V) over the standard (CCM 4)? I'd imagine that's better for my purposes, but that's just an educated guess, whereas you would know for sure.

Also, there are LG and UG versions, but as usual, I can't find anything on Schoeps site that tells me what those abbreviations mean. What's the difference? The price is the same for both.

One final point on the CCMs. I know I'd lose the ability to change caps, but I'm wondering how much of a disadvantage this would be in practice. How many tapers actually decide whether to take wides, regulars or hypers to a particular show? Does the question even have any relevance in the context of stealth taping from pre-assigned seats? For stack taping, I'd imagine the hypers are always what you'd want to use. Do you agree?

Beyond that, I'd still look back to used 4021s, so long as they were in excellent condition.

New 4021s are €1539 here, just as a comparison for you.

Finally, on the question of the recorder, that DR-100 MK II does look lovely. I'm curious whether there's anything the PMD-661 offers that the much cheaper DR-100 MK II doesn't. That's something I can research on my own, though. These mics, on the other hand, are complex enough that I'm likely to make expensive mistakes if I don't first pick the brains of the experts.

Again, thanks to everyone for all of the replies. I'm struggling to reply to all of the good feedback I've had. Page, I'll get to you and your PM this evening, if I don't fall asleep at the computer as I did last night!

Cheers, everyone.

[acidjack]

At some of the gigs I go to, beer occasionally goes flying overhead, dousing everyone and everything under it. When that happens now, I dab my 4060s and shrug it off as par for the course. With 2 of those CCM 41Vs, the necessary cables and a new recorder, I'd be carrying 5 grand's worth of gear on me. Like everything, though, I suppose I'd get used to the idea.

Depends on the mount you use, but if they are in a hat, that would protect them some...

A couple of questions about the CCMs, since we're back on the subject. Would you recommend the verticals (the CCM 4V) over the standard (CCM 4)? I'd imagine that's better for my purposes, but that's just an educated guess, whereas you would know for sure.

Depends on the mount.  I know there are ways to run the V versions in hats, but most folks who stealth with Schoeps don't have Vs. I'd invite hi and lo or someone else who has actually done it (i.e., not me) to send you a PM on this subject.

Also, there are LG and UG versions, but as usual, I can't find anything on Schoeps site that tells me what those abbreviations mean. What's the difference? The price is the same for both.

One is fixed cable IIRC, one not.

One final point on the CCMs. I know I'd lose the ability to change caps, but I'm wondering how much of a disadvantage this would be in practice. How many tapers actually decide whether to take wides, regulars or hypers to a particular show? Does the question even have any relevance in the context of stealth taping from pre-assigned seats? For stack taping, I'd imagine the hypers are always what you'd want to use. Do you agree?

For your purposes, probably not.  I mean, look, I open tape, and I tape in a huge variety of venues, and I can pick and choose my spots. So yes, I spend a lot of time obsessing over what I will bring. So do lots of other guys here.  BUT, the MK41 is rarely if ever "bad" - people even use them onstage and like them.  If you are mostly or always stealthing, I can't see the 41s ever really being "wrong".  And in any venue of more than 500 or capacity, never.

For example, last night I ran MK5s and MK41s from directly behind the SBD in a 1500 capacity venue.  I *may* prefer the 5 pull slightly; I can't decide.  But if I'd only had 41s, would I be sad?  No.  Both are excellent recordings; just a little different. Most people who aren't tapers like a more directional sound like the 41s give, which is also worth considering if you care about sharing your recordings.

New 4021s are €1539 here, just as a comparison for you.

Finally, on the question of the recorder, that DR-100 MK II does look lovely. I'm curious whether there's anything the PMD-661 offers that the much cheaper DR-100 MK II doesn't. That's something I can research on my own, though. These mics, on the other hand, are complex enough that I'm likely to make expensive mistakes if I don't first pick the brains of the experts.

I haven't used either. I've used the old PMD660 with Oade mod (again not really an option for you if you want to avoid U.S.) and the SOUND was great.  To me the biggest liabilities of the DR-100mkII are (i) it's Tascam, a manufacturer with widely documented quality control issues on some products (some tapers swear by Tascam; others call it "Trashcan") and (ii) it's less "tested" than the PMD-661, meaning it's new and so there is less user feedback on this board than there is for the 661, which is the go-to 2-channel all-in-one of its size class.  That said, Steve aka tonedeaf on this board ran an extensive test of his new DR-100mkII and I respect his opinion.  Based on that, and given the lower price, I'd probably buy one if I was in the market for a new deck.  If Oade or someone would upgrade the preamps, all the better.

[aaronji]

I'm only saying they were the best choice for me personally. Since you're planning on spending a lot of money on an upgrade, take your time and get what best suits your ears. We all have our own preferences. I hope it works out well for you.

QFT

I stalked my most recent purchase for months before finally dropping coinage for it.

Me too...It's a lot of money...

If size is far and away the most important thing, you'd be hard pressed to do better than the old-style DPAs.  Otherwise, a lot of the other options being tossed around here are fairly similar size-wise.

If you decide to go the Schoeps route, I would reconsider the opposition to the boutique manufacturers.  For around the cost of a pair of CCMs, plus powering, you could get 2 pairs of caps and a CMR or nbox or the like...Duties are indeed a bitch, but you could probably avoid the brunt of it by buying the caps over here.  For repairs, I have never had to pay duties.  Just ask the person that does the repair to mark the customs form "Other: repair of broken/defective merchandise."

[newplanet7]

I'm not sure how small is small but tons of folks on here stealth with active/remote set-ups.
I roll these direct into a pmd660 mic in and couldn't be happier. My dream mics.
You could also go the route of Milab Links. The body is 4inches.  small, High-end, modular(multiple cap options), 12-52 powering, amazing sound.

[Popmarter]

Talking about milab  , Ian you might consider the vm44-Link in terms of quality and price. I am figuring out how to stealth with them, but yes they are a bit bigger than typical stealth mics. They fit a kangol, but well.....you have to like that. I use them together with mixpre-d (nice levelchecking) and a m10/r44. If you take the tascam you can go all digital.

[ianmacd]

QFT

I stalked my most recent purchase for months before finally dropping coinage for it.

Me too...It's a lot of money...

Don't worry. I'm not about to make a hasty decision. Months of research precede any major purchase I make. Sometimes, I never even make it to the purchase, because I never acquire the necessary confidence that I'm doing the right thing. That won't happen here, though. Things are moving along nicely and I feel I'm making good progress, thanks to all of the experts here. Again, thank you one and all.

At the moment, I'm favouring either the DPA 4011c or the Schoeps CCM 41(V) for the sheer elegant simplicity of the solution, but I will need to do a lot of comparative listening once my mic short-list settles down. The 4011c has the major advantages of not only being quite a bit cheaper, but also offering interchangeable MMC capsules on top of the MMP-C amp. I really don't understand why Schoeps don't have something equivalent. Yes, you can do caps > CMR/KCY > Tinybox or whatever, but the DPA route doesn't require expensive cables and an extra box between the mics and the recorder. It seems to me that Schoeps is missing a trick here. Either that, or I've missed something fundamental. To buy the Schoeps, I'll therefore need to convince myself that they're both worth the extra money for their sound image and the loss in flexibility.

If size is far and away the most important thing, you'd be hard pressed to do better than the old-style DPAs.

It's not the most important thing. As long as I can fit the mics in a hat, it doesn't much matter whether they're 2 or 4 cm.

If you decide to go the Schoeps route, I would reconsider the opposition to the boutique manufacturers.  For around the cost of a pair of CCMs, plus powering, you could get 2 pairs of caps and a CMR or nbox or the like...Duties are indeed a bitch, but you could probably avoid the brunt of it by buying the caps over here.

I hear you, but an NBox is another piece of equipment to go wrong, forget to bring, supply with power, have to stow somewhere about my person, etc. Being able to dispense with that need is very attractive, even if doing so comes at quite a price premium.

I'm not yet ruling anything out, however. I'm still in the discovery phase.

[DSatz]

ianmacd, I'm late arriving in this thread, but would strongly disagree about the Schoeps cardioids being colored toward "warmth." They are very neutral in the mid-bass region where I think most people would place "warmth" in the frequency spectrum. If I want special warmth from a directional microphone I use the MK 22 capsule.

If anything there is a tiny bit of added brightness or "air" to the MK 4, but that's a high-frequency characteristic of course, and has more to do with the MK 4's off-axis response than the 0-degree response shown in the spec sheet frequency response curve. The cardioid setting of the MK 5 has even more of this because its on-axis response is also slightly elevated at high frequencies.

How Schoeps got to be called "dark" is a mystery to me--except that so many low-price condenser microphones have outright high-frequency peaks and distortion that some people might have gotten confused into thinking was normal. If you take that as your starting point, then more neutral microphones might feel at first as if they're lacking something.

--best regards

P.S.:  Of course for certain applications neutral sound just isn't what you want, and everyone is entitled to his and/or her own preferences. I notice that a lot of people around here like the Schoeps MK 4 V capsules, which are the company's main full-range capsule (i.e. not a speech capsule) that has a distinctly audible high-frequency elevation.

[acidjack]

How Schoeps got to be called "dark" is a mystery to me--except that so many low-price condenser microphones have outright high-frequency peaks and distortion that some people might have gotten confused into thinking was normal. If you take that as your starting point, then more neutral microphones might feel at first as if they're lacking something.

--best regards

P.S.:  Of course for certain applications neutral sound just isn't what you want, and everyone is entitled to his and/or her own preferences. I notice that a lot of people around here like the Schoeps MK 4 V capsules, which are the company's main full-range capsule (i.e. not a speech capsule) that has a distinctly audible high-frequency elevation.

I think this is a lot of it.  I've noticed that people, especially folks who are new, tend to get excited about recordings that sound "clear" to them, and at times think Schoeps and other brands sound "muddy".  Well, of course something sounds "clear" if there is nothing there (i.e., any low frequency response to speak of).  I'd call it "thin" or "lacking" and would rather judiciously EQ a full-range recording than start out with one that isn't.

The other part of it is that so many people here are recording PA systems, and worse, at significant distances.  hi and lo's comment about recording in Carnegie Hall is one that has always stuck with me as an excellent distinction on this point. In a flawless room recording a natural source like an orchestra or something of that sort, a more neutral-sounding mic like the MK4 or most of the DPA line is exactly what you want - because it will reproduce that room perfectly.  While there is just something I *like* about the DPA line more than the MK4, I think it and the DPAs are more similar than some of the other mics being mentioned...

As DSatz pointed out, a lot of people here show a preference for mics with some HF emphasis - in the Schoeps line, the MK5 and MK4V in particular (and of course the more directional MK41).  This makes a lot of sense if you look at a normal rock music recording in Ozone or something, and can see that something like 50% of the captured frequencies are in the 0-200Hz range, while usually everything above 8kHz or so is significantly lower. Rock music PAs just don't put out much in the way of HF and most of them are calibrated to pump out loads of bass.  It should be expected, then, that a neutral-sounding mic will reflect that.   I like the full frequency range of the MK22 in some circumstances, but it picks up an even larger about of LF.  For rock music, judicious use of the EQ is a must to make those recordings sound right.

It also has a lot to do with your playback system.  If you have a playback system that can accurately reproduce mid-low bass frequencies, rather than reproducing them as vaguely defined boominess, you might find your preferences in mics and EQ settings will also change... For playing back on, say, your average factory car stereo system, it may well be that cheap brand x sounds "clearer" than a recording made with a better microphone...

[page]

How Schoeps got to be called "dark" is a mystery to me--except that so many low-price condenser microphones have outright high-frequency peaks and distortion that some people might have gotten confused into thinking was normal. If you take that as your starting point, then more neutral microphones might feel at first as if they're lacking something.

The other part of it is that so many people here are recording PA systems, and worse, at significant distances.  hi and lo's comment about recording in Carnegie Hall is one that has always stuck with me as an excellent distinction on this point. In a flawless room recording a natural source like an orchestra or something of that sort, a more neutral-sounding mic like the MK4 or most of the DPA line is exactly what you want - because it will reproduce that room perfectly.  While there is just something I *like* about the DPA line more than the MK4, I think it and the DPAs are more similar than some of the other mics being mentioned...

^^ This.

More than anything, the recordings I've made where I didn't record a PA or got close enough to pick up the stage sound always sound brighter with my gear than the far-field room recordings from a typical seat. The folks over at GS don't typically think the mk4 is muddy, but they are also working on the primary sound source and not recording a PA.

[ianmacd]

Oh, one other point, you would need an additional custom solution to go KCY>661.  The KCY is terminated in a binder connector.  Naiant can build tinyboxes that work with KCY, but to go KCY>any random preamp you need a special "PFA" which is a sort of hybridized Naiant + other people solution (the primary technology is the Naiant PFA, which perhaps is the most ingenious of all of Jon's products...)

Which of the KCY cables do you use in your KCY > Tinybox config? The 5 metre one, I presume.

The cheap price of the Tinybox is very appealing, I must say. To work with the KCY, does one need to order the input with the 5 pin binder female or the 4 pin binder male? And did you need to order any other cables or extras, or are you finished once you have the caps, the KCY and the Tinybox?

The output from the Tinybox is just 3.5 mm mini, correct?

I'm starting to come back on my decision not to have any US boutique gear whatsoever. That Tinybox is just so cost-effective, when you compare against the CCMs.

[pjp]

I'm starting to come back on my decision not to have any US boutique gear whatsoever. That Tinybox is just so cost-effective, when you compare against the CCMs.

The Tinybox is a fantastic piece of equipment, I've been very happy with mine. It replaced an Nbox, which is also amazing, but the Tinybox is a joy to use with its long battery times and smaller size - couldn't believe just how small it was when it arrived. Did about 5 hours of music this Saturday, MK4>Tinybox, and it was still going strong.

[ianmacd]

The Tinybox is a fantastic piece of equipment, I've been very happy with mine. It replaced an Nbox, which is also amazing, but the Tinybox is a joy to use with its long battery times and smaller size - couldn't believe just how small it was when it arrived. Did about 5 hours of music this Saturday, MK4>Tinybox, and it was still going strong.

Bearing in mind that almost all of this technology is new to me, please forgive the following question:

When you say MK4 > Tinybox, you mean MK4 > KCY > Tinybox, right? If I've understood things correctly, there isn't a way to directly connect those caps to a pre-amp.

Secondly, can you please detail the exact options you ordered your Tinybox with? I want to make sure that what others buy matches my understanding of what I think I need. 

[acidjack]

The Tinybox is a fantastic piece of equipment, I've been very happy with mine. It replaced an Nbox, which is also amazing, but the Tinybox is a joy to use with its long battery times and smaller size - couldn't believe just how small it was when it arrived. Did about 5 hours of music this Saturday, MK4>Tinybox, and it was still going strong.

Bearing in mind that almost all of this technology is new to me, please forgive the following question:

When you say MK4 > Tinybox, you mean MK4 > KCY > Tinybox, right? If I've understood things correctly, there isn't a way to directly connect those caps to a pre-amp.

Secondly, can you please detail the exact options you ordered your Tinybox with? I want to make sure that what others buy matches my understanding of what I think I need. 

The tinybox can also work with the custom cables made for the NBox.  So you can go MKx>Nbox Cables>tinybox.  That is what was referenced above.

Those of us who never owned NBoxes use KCYs instead.

I used the 5m KCY, yes.  And yes, the only tinybox output option as far as I am aware is 3.5mm Stereo mini.  Everything else would be too big.

[Nucleus]

I'm also quite curious on the exact configuration of the tinybox v2 for those of you running MKx > KCY > tinybox rigs

[aaronji]

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=155138.0

If you didn't want the pre, I am sure you wouldn't have a hard time unloading it...

[acidjack]

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=155138.0

If you didn't want the pre, I am sure you wouldn't have a hard time unloading it...

[and the understatement of the year award goes to....]

[phanophish]

MBHO caps would be another, less expensive possibility:

KA 200N (cardioid) or KA 500HN (hyper-cardioid) caps: ~500 euros
capsule attachments: ~300 euros
Naiant Tinybox (incl. cable, shipping and customs): ~280 euros

Does someone make a capsule attachment cable that allows you to essentially run MBHO caps active with a tinybox?  If so link please?

[OOK]

Does someone make a capsule attachment cable that allows you to essentially run MBHO caps active with a tinybox?  If so link please?

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=143987.msg1956056#msg1956056

You can buy the capsule attachments direct from Dale Pro Audio.  Contact Dan Ross...He priced it out for me....they are like 195$ a piece plus 10$ shipping....They are special order. Then Naint builds you the box....add cables whola... If you already have caps...your probably in it for less than 800$...

If I didn't make a recent unexpected purchase I would be on these like a moth to a flame...

 peace OOK

[Teen Age Riot]

Does someone make a capsule attachment cable that allows you to essentially run MBHO caps active with a tinybox?  If so link please?

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=143987.msg1956056#msg1956056

You can buy the capsule attachments direct from Dale Pro Audio.  Contact Dan Ross...He priced it out for me....they are like 195$ a piece plus 10$ shipping....They are special order. Then Naint builds you the box....add cables whola... If you already have caps...your probably in it for less than 800$...

...and if you already have MBHO 603A's and caps, all you need to do is order the Tinybox and the breakout cable from Jon.
If you're in Europe you can also buy the capsule attachments directly from MBHO at 130 euros each (plus tax).

[aaronji]

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=155138.0

If you didn't want the pre, I am sure you wouldn't have a hard time unloading it...

[and the understatement of the year award goes to....]

"I'd like to thank the members of the academy, family, friends, and colleagues for this prestigious award..."  

I have to admit, I was chuckling a bit to myself when I posted that...Really, the only reason I posted it in this thread was that I thought ianmacd, based in Europe, might actually have a chance to jump on it...

[it-goes-to-eleven]

How Schoeps got to be called "dark" is a mystery to me--except that so many low-price condenser microphones have outright high-frequency peaks and distortion that some people might have gotten confused into thinking was normal. If you take that as your starting point, then more neutral microphones might feel at first as if they're lacking something.

I think I mostly hear that from folks who record PA's.  I don't tend to hear it from people who directly record performers, whether classical, jazz, choral, whatever.

Another consideration is the playback system.  And also, hearing degradation.  If someone cannot hear the well-balanced and graceful nature of the mk4, they have obviously damaged their ears due to their obsession with death metal

Higher frequencies diminish with distance, and are also more prone to be lost in background noise.  I think that the additional high frequency response of the mk4v and the Gefell m20 can help with those frequencies in certain circumstances.

Traditional "stacks" or speakers are brighter as you get closer to the front.  And what you hear is very different at sound check, when the venue is empty.  Further back, I might prefer the brighter response of the mk4v.  But up close, I find the sound is typically brighter and the flatter response of the mk4 or mk21 is a better choice.

Dark is simply the opposite of bright, just as cold is the opposite of warm.  Cold and dark tend to have negative connotations, though they should not in this context.  Studies have shown fairly clearly that when you meet someone, if you are holding a cold drink in your hand, they describe you differently than if you are holding a hot drink; to the point of describing your personality as warmer or colder.  So most of us have some curious psychological biases here.

[ianmacd]

Duties are indeed a bitch, but you could probably avoid the brunt of it by buying the caps over here.

Aaron,

Can I ask where you purchase your gear in the Netherlands? There are few options for Schoeps stuff, so we probably use the same place. PM me if you prefer.

[aaronji]

^^^ I don't have experience with buying Schoeps over here (only DPA).  But I PM'ed you with what (little) I know...

[ianmacd]

Given that I started this thread, it's only courteous to come back and inform everyone who has given me advice that I do now finally have some equipment on order. Without the advice I received here, it would have taken much longer to reach a decision and, with so many details to consider, I'm confident that any decision I might have made on my own would not have been so well informed.

In the end, I decided that top quality, low profile, simplicity and maximum reliability were the most important things to me. This ultimately led me to reject the Schoeps MK capsules->active cables->pre-amp solutions in favour of the more expensive and less flexible CCM mics with built-in amplifier. After careful consideration, I now have a factory-matched pair of CCM 41V mics on order.

I'll be ordering a Tascam DR-100 MK II in the next week or so to be my new recorder for these mics, but I also want to be able to use them with my old R-09HR if that necessity presents itself, so to that end, I've also ordered a P12 Tinybox from Naiant. I've written many times here that I didn't want to have to purchase and rely on custom-made boutique equipment that I'd have to import from the US, but because it's only an optional item here, merely enabling the use of a back-up equipment chain, I can justify a Tinybox to myself on those terms.

I've yet to figure out exactly how Ill stealth with them, but I'll work something out.

All being well, the first results with this new rig should start showing up some time in June.

Thank you to everyone who helped me along the way. A special mention must go to Acidjack for coaching me through the whole decision making process and really caring that I made the right choice.

[stepeanut]

New gear is exciting!

Congratulations on your choice, Ian.  I think it is a wise one.  Looking forward to hearing the results.

[yates7592]

Just make sure you're happy with the Tascam DR100mkii - have you read the thread? - it seems the record times are not good on phantom power

[Sebastian]

Just make sure you're happy with the Tascam DR100mkii - have you read the thread? - it seems the record times are not good on phantom power

FWIW, I am currently in the process of replacing my DR100mkII with a Tinybox>DR-2d setup for stealth situations. While I was able to successfully work around the DR100mkII's battery problems, it's size ended up being a bit of a hassle to stealth. Don't get me wrong. It's doable and I've stealthed bigger gear in the past, but why would I bother if I can accomplish the same task with less hassle?

My advice would be to try out the tinybox with whatever recorder you currently own before potentially wasting money on the big Tascam.

[Scooter123]

I spent a solid 6 months picking out mikes, downloading a couple hundred shows and then figuring out which ones sounded best to my ears.  The two leaders were Neuman KM Series and MK4s.  MK4s got the nod because of their small size and their warm sound.  Reasonable people could disagree which mike sounds better.  I'd let you ears make the decision for you. 

[aaronji]

After careful consideration, I now have a factory-matched pair of CCM 41V mics on order.

Out of curiosity, why the side addressed instead of the end addressed model?   

[Myco]

After careful consideration, I now have a factory-matched pair of CCM 41V mics on order.

Out of curiosity, why the side addressed instead of the end addressed model?

Not a back door man? 

[ianmacd]

After careful consideration, I now have a factory-matched pair of CCM 41V mics on order.

Out of curiosity, why the side addressed instead of the end addressed model?

I believe that they'll be easier to stealth with inside headwear, in that I'll be able to place the mics on their side alone the front of a hat. That's the thinking, anyway.

Just to be clear, side-addressing here refers to the pick-up area being along the side, as opposed to horizontally along the tip. It doesn't refer to the cable entry, which is at the base on both the normal and V models.

If it turns out to be a very expensive mistake, I'll let you know. 

[Fried Chicken Boy]

As acidjack previously mentioned in this thread, you might want to PM hi and lo regarding stealthing with side addressed Schoeps.  He had a rather ingenious setup when he ran 4V's.

Congrats on pulling the trigger on your new rig, Ian.  Not really a Schoeps guy myself, but the 41's are great sounding mics.

[aaronji]

After careful consideration, I now have a factory-matched pair of CCM 41V mics on order.

Out of curiosity, why the side addressed instead of the end addressed model?

Not a back door man? 

All depends on the back door in question!

I believe that they'll be easier to stealth with inside headwear, in that I'll be able to place the mics on their side alone the front of a hat. That's the thinking, anyway.

If it turns out to be a very expensive mistake, I'll let you know. 

Gotcha.  I was thinking that getting the right orientation and angle would be more difficult with the Vs, but maybe not...Curious to hear how it works out!

At any rate, even if you decide you'd prefer the 41s, you probably won't get soaked too badly selling the Vs!

[phanophish]

Does someone make a capsule attachment cable that allows you to essentially run MBHO caps active with a tinybox?  If so link please?

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=143987.msg1956056#msg1956056

You can buy the capsule attachments direct from Dale Pro Audio.  Contact Dan Ross...He priced it out for me....they are like 195$ a piece plus 10$ shipping....They are special order. Then Naint builds you the box....add cables whola... If you already have caps...your probably in it for less than 800$...

...and if you already have MBHO 603A's and caps, all you need to do is order the Tinybox and the breakout cable from Jon.
If you're in Europe you can also buy the capsule attachments directly from MBHO at 130 euros each (plus tax).

So do I need to have the 603A (Active) or will the normal 603 (Non Active) mics work?  I have the standard 603 bodies and Hyper, card, & omni caps.  I know the Caps are the same between the mic bodies (a friend here in KC has the actives), I'm just wondering if ordering what is essentially just the little capsule mounts will result in the parts & pieces that Jon needs to build the rest of the chain, or is there some piece that would be missing that prevents me from running my existing caps as active with a tinybox?

I'd like to get to this setup...

MBHO KA200n Card Caps(Already own)>MBHO Active Cap Mounts (Sourced from Dale Pro)>Custom Active Cable (Made by Niant?)>Tinybox

I assume this is what I am ordering from Dale Pro...

[Teen Age Riot]

I assume this is what I am ordering from Dale Pro...

Yup.

The cable in the picture is just plain 4pin mini-XLR (nothing active about it).
So in addition to the capsule attachments, you need the 6pin to dual 4pin mini-XLR adaptor cable from Jon. (You can select it in the dropdown menu on his website.)
Mine is 1.5m long and that's what I use for . When I tape openly I simply use the mini-XLRs I already had as extensions.

[phanophish]

Yup.

The cable in the picture is just plain 4pin mini-XLR (nothing active about it).
So in addition to the capsule attachments, you need the 6pin to dual 4pin mini-XLR adaptor cable from Jon. (You can select it in the dropdown menu on his website.)
Mine is 1.5m long and that's what I use for . When I tape openly I simply use the mini-XLRs I already had as extensions.

Sweet, thanks for the info.  I ordered the cap attachments from Dale Pro today.  They are great to deal with, but there is a 3-4 week lead on the parts to be shipped from MBHO to the US.  With the lead times on the new Tinybox 2.2 I should still have them before I get the pre.  Bummer for me is it all will miss the Phish Alpine/Deer Creek run by at least a few weeks.

[F.O.Bean]

Congrats bro. Those ccm41v mics are DA BOMB

I would suggest a TinyBox>Sony PCM M10 route over the DR2D

[ianmacd]

Congrats bro. Those ccm41v mics are DA BOMB

I would suggest a TinyBox>Sony PCM M10 route over the DR2D

Thanks.

I've got a Tinybox ordered from John, so that I can feed into my R-09HR as an option.

I also want to be able to go straight to XLR inputs, however, when the situation allows. That's why I was considering the DR 100 MK II. However, negative reports about that unit have since caused me to get cold feet.

I'm now considering a PMD-661 with the Oade concert mod or possibly the newer Roland R-26, which looks like a terrific little unit for the money:

http://www.rolandsystemsgroup.com/products/100093

[Fried Chicken Boy]

Being a long-time user and supporter of Edirol/Roland decks, I have no reason to believe the R-26 is anything but solid.  The spot where they dropped the ball with it, IMHO, was not including a digital input on it.  Could've been a serious game changer.

The PMD-661 is no slouch, either.  Great sounding, easy-to-use recorder that's even better with the Oade mod.  Doesn't hurt that it has the SPDIF input, too.

[John Willett]

Being a long-time user and supporter of Edirol/Roland decks, I have no reason to believe the R-26 is anything but solid.  The spot where they dropped the ball with it, IMHO, was not including a digital input on it.  Could've been a serious game changer.

I have mentioned this to them.

But a digital input costs money as you have to pay a licence fee to Sony & Philips for S-PDIF.

[Fried Chicken Boy]

I hear you, John, and no doubt there were concessions made as well as agonizing decisions during development.  But it can be little things like that which make the difference between very good decks and amazing ones.

[F.O.Bean]

I would run ccm41v>702/722

But for real, a CCM41V>TinyBox>24-Bit Recorder setup is all that's needed

[John Willett]

Currently, I record everything I go to with DPA 4060 > MMA6000 > R-09HR. The omnis are fine for most of my purposes, because almost everything is a standing gig and I record with my head in the stack. Crowd noise and boominess aren't really issues.

This year, however, I've got a number of arena shows coming up. Some of those are assigned seating and I can't pick and choose my recording location. Omnis won't excel there, so this is the perfect time to purchase some high-end cardioids.

The obvious choice, given my experience with DPA and my dearth of experience with anything else high-end, is the 4021/2/3 range. I know the cabling differences between the three, but I'm still not sure which to pick. When might it be useful to have LEMO connectors, for example? And if I'm pinning these mics to my jacket, do I want a rear connector, or would a side connector make it easier to aim the mics?

To avoid the need for a new battery box to interface between the mics and the R-09HR, I'm also looking to invest in a new recorder. The Roland R-44 is an obvious choice, but rather large and stealth is of paramount importance here. Given that requirement, the pick of the bunch seems to be the Marantz PMD-661. If anyone has any strong feelings about that choice, pro or con, I'd be interested in hearing them, but maybe I should start a second thread for that. I mention it here, because the purchase is directly related to the mic purchase. If I do get the PMD-661, I'll probably order through Oade and get their concert mod. They don't ship to Europe, though, so I'd have to use a freight forwarder and risk being slapped with massive import duties when the package gets here. It's probably still worth doing, though, to get that mod. I sometimes record acoustic music, so maybe the Super mod would be applicable, too. Opinions?

None of these decisions is set in stone at the moment. I'd consider Schoeps instead of DPA if I thought there was a good reason, but I've heard that Schoeps mics tend to colour the sound, producing warmth, which I'm not sure I want, as I'm someone who favours transparency. I have no experience with Schoeps, though. I suppose the equivalent of the 4021/2/3 is the CCM 4. Is that right? I believe those contain amps and could thus be plugged straight into the PMD-661.

Lots of new ground for me to break here and some potentially very expensive mistakes to avoid. 

Any help navigating the minefield would be very much appreciated.

Back to the OP.

The Sennheiser MKH 8040 are well worth considering - and, if you use the remote cable, can be very small indeed.

The Schoeps and DPA you have already mentioned.

The new Neumann KM-A/D series with KK184 heads is also worth a thought (again, remote cables are available).

The Gefell M300 stereo set is a very nice set of cardioids and comes complete with stereo bar and riser.

The Gefell SMS2000 series is also worth thinking about and there is another thread here where someone is designing remote cables for them.

I hope this helps.

[ianmacd]

Following up again, I picked up my new pair of factory-matched CCM 41V microphones Friday afternoon. They look impressive in their wooden boxes with certificate of matching, but It'll take more than that to convince my wife. I'd better come home with some pretty impressive recordings once I start using them.

Now I have to figure out exactly how I'm going to secrete these in some discreet headgear. They're small, but compared to my DPA 4060s, they're gargantuan, of course.

A new Marantz PMD-661 with Oade concert mod also arrived from the States yesterday, courtesy of visiting in-laws, and a Naiant Tinybox came in this afternoon via a separate mule from the U.S.

In short, I have a lot of new equipment to get to grips with and learn, but the first task is to figure out how exactly to wear those mics for stealth use.

[acidjack]

Following up again, I picked up my new pair of factory-matched CCM 41V microphones Friday afternoon. They look impressive in their wooden boxes with certificate of matching, but It'll take more than that to convince my wife. I'd better come home with some pretty impressive recordings once I start using them.

Now I have to figure out exactly how I'm going to secrete these in some discreet headgear. They're small, but compared to my DPA 4060s, they're gargantuan, of course.

A new Marantz PMD-661 with Oade concert mod also arrived from the States yesterday, courtesy of visiting in-laws, and a Naiant Tinybox came in this afternoon via a separate mule from the U.S.

In short, I have a lot of new equipment to get to grips with and learn, but the first task is to figure out how exactly to wear those mics for stealth use.

If you haven't PM'd hi and lo yet, now would be the time.  He had a very nice setup for 4Vs.

[F.O.Bean]

Following up again, I picked up my new pair of factory-matched CCM 41V microphones Friday afternoon. They look impressive in their wooden boxes with certificate of matching, but It'll take more than that to convince my wife. I'd better come home with some pretty impressive recordings once I start using them.

Now I have to figure out exactly how I'm going to secrete these in some discreet headgear. They're small, but compared to my DPA 4060s, they're gargantuan, of course.

A new Marantz PMD-661 with Oade concert mod also arrived from the States yesterday, courtesy of visiting in-laws, and a Naiant Tinybox came in this afternoon via a separate mule from the U.S.

In short, I have a lot of new equipment to get to grips with and learn, but the first task is to figure out how exactly to wear those mics for stealth use.

I would think the regular CCM41 woukldve been easier to stea*&h, but the side address of the 41V may make it easier once you get a system down. And if you have to practice at home, do IT!!!!!!!!!!!

[ianmacd]

If you haven't PM'd hi and lo yet, now would be the time.  He had a very nice setup for 4Vs.

I've just sent him a message. Thanks.

[ianmacd]

I would think the regular CCM41 woukldve been easier to stea*&h, but the side address of the 41V may make it easier once you get a system down.

It was hard to decide ahead of time whether I'd want to have the mics mounted on either side of a hat, pointing forwards, or at the front of a hat, lying on their side, angled towards one another. I eventually decided on the latter, which I hope I'm going to be able to make work and not regret.

[ianmacd]

It was hard to decide ahead of time whether I'd want to have the mics mounted on either side of a hat, pointing forwards, or at the front of a hat, lying on their side, angled towards one another. I eventually decided on the latter, which I hope I'm going to be able to make work and not regret.

Following up on myself here for a moment, I assume that you can actually use a CCM V on its side, rather than vertically. Or does that mess with its pattern too much? If so, the end-addressed CCM 41s would, indeed, be easier for my purposes.

[kubacheck]

I'm kinda curious how this is all gonna work out.....  when is the first time you'll be trying out the new setup??

[ianmacd]

I'm kinda curious how this is all gonna work out.....  when is the first time you'll be trying out the new setup??

If I'm ready in time, this coming Tuesday with Stone Roses in HMH, but I doubt I'll have be ready to roll by then, so that one may still have to go through the old rig.

Actually, I'd ideally run both rigs there, but the HMH can be tricky to get gear into and two rigs would be pushing my luck.

[aaronji]

Following up on myself here for a moment, I assume that you can actually use a CCM V on its side, rather than vertically. Or does that mess with its pattern too much? If so, the end-addressed CCM 41s would, indeed, be easier for my purposes.

I think that getting the spacing and angle right might be more of a problem than messing with the pattern (although not really an issue, if my mental image is at all close, your head will block the rear lobes)...

In short, I have a lot of new equipment to get to grips with and learn, but the first task is to figure out how exactly to wear those mics for stealth use.

It's also worth considering trying to get some open permissions.  With the amount of cash you've already spent, the extra money for stand/bar/clips will be a drop in the bucket.  HMH is probably difficult, but some of the other venues might be fairly easy.  Melkweg, for example, allows open taping at the Jam in the Dam, so they are aware of taping and at least somewhat open to it.  I would guess that if you had the artist's approval, they would let you run a stand there...

[ianmacd]

Following up on myself here for a moment, I assume that you can actually use a CCM V on its side, rather than vertically. Or does that mess with its pattern too much? If so, the end-addressed CCM 41s would, indeed, be easier for my purposes.

I think that getting the spacing and angle right might be more of a problem than messing with the pattern (although not really an issue, if my mental image is at all close, your head will block the rear lobes)...

Well, I'm imagining having them at the front of the hat, so pretty much in a straight line, on their sides, pointing at each other.

This being my first experience of mics like these, I'm just not sure what happens to the pattern when you turn the mic through 90 degrees. Obviously, these are intended to be vertically mounted on a bar, and I'll be tipping them on their side. Your suspicion that the pattern won't be too negatively influenced is encouraging, but I'll feel better when more people weigh in to say the same.

But yeah, getting the angle right will be tricky, too; and learning the discipline to keep my head still. I don't currently hat-mount, so I'm free to move my head with no ill effects.

I don't imagine that the spacing will matter much, because I'm not going for much of a stereo image. I stack-tape, so any notion of stereo is pretty much out the window.

It's also worth considering trying to get some open permissions.  With the amount of cash you've already spent, the extra money for stand/bar/clips will be a drop in the bucket.  HMH is probably difficult, but some of the other venues might be fairly easy.  Melkweg, for example, allows open taping at the Jam in the Dam, so they are aware of taping and at least somewhat open to it.  I would guess that if you had the artist's approval, they would let you run a stand there...

I probably should start moving in that direction for some of the recordings, I make, yes.

[johnw]

There are a lot of people here (maybe most) using the 4v or 41v caps on their side in both open and less than open recording techniques. It sounds great although I've never done a direct comparison.

[Todd R]

The main relevant question is whether the 4v's use a circular diaphragm, which I'm almost certain they do.  If so, then the diaphragm is symmetrical and whether the mics are oriented vertically or horizontally won't make a difference -- you can picture the circular diaphragm not changing in orientation at all as you move the mic from vertical to horizontal.

The microphone housing can perhaps have some very, very (very) slight effect leading to differences, but the housing is designed to be transparent to the sound getting to the capsule.  After all, you wouldn't want the housing having an effect on the incoming sound from different angles such that different positions in an orchestra you're recording have some kind of different timbre or mic sensitivity -- that's no way to capture a soundstage.

The main area where this would be a difference to worry about -- mics oriented horizontally vs vertically -- is for mics that use a rectangular diaphragm such as those made by Pearl and Milab.  The rectangular diaphragm is not symmetrical by design, and the resulting sound capture is meant to have different characteristics depending on how you orient the mic relative to the sound source.

[ianmacd]

The main relevant question is whether the 4v's use a circular diaphragm, which I'm almost certain they do.  If so, then the diaphragm is symmetrical and whether the mics are oriented vertically or horizontally won't make a difference -- you can picture the circular diaphragm not changing in orientation at all as you move the mic from vertical to horizontal.

Ah, of course! Thanks for pointing that out.

Yes, if you hold the capsules up to the light, you can see the circular diaphragm behind the grille. As you rotate that through 90 degrees, the circle naturally remains a circle. I didn't want to assume that the microphone's pattern was symmetrical across more than one plane, but your explanation makes perfectly clear why that is, indeed, the case with the CCM 41V.

[kingkita]

There are a lot of people here (maybe most) using the 4v or 41v caps on their side in both open and less than open recording techniques. It sounds great although I've never done a direct comparison.

I think Dr John Nailed This question!

[it-goes-to-eleven]

The microphone housing can perhaps have some very, very (very) slight effect leading to differences, but the housing is designed to be transparent to the sound getting to the capsule.  After all, you wouldn't want the housing having an effect on the incoming sound from different angles such that different positions in an orchestra you're recording have some kind of different timbre or mic sensitivity -- that's no way to capture a soundstage.

It depends on the axis. Published Schoeps mic measurements only test the vertical confg. I've never seen a polar response graph for the V capsules when positioned horizontally.

When you run the V's horizontally at 90, or especially 110 degrees, some aspects of the immediate soundstage in the horizontal plane lose line of sight to the diaphragm.  That "shadowing" does not happen in the vertical orientation.  That lead me to develop the vertical mounting bar.  Zman has the first one used in the field.

It is also possible that the additional length of the V series housings is to give the capsule more room on the long axis of the housing.  It'd be interesting to see the polar plot.

[aaronji]

It's also worth considering trying to get some open permissions.  With the amount of cash you've already spent, the extra money for stand/bar/clips will be a drop in the bucket.  HMH is probably difficult, but some of the other venues might be fairly easy.  Melkweg, for example, allows open taping at the Jam in the Dam, so they are aware of taping and at least somewhat open to it.  I would guess that if you had the artist's approval, they would let you run a stand there...

I probably should start moving in that direction for some of the recordings, I make, yes.

You definitely should!  Please keep me posted if you do.  Opening up the Netherlands, slowly but surely...

[ianmacd]

Well, it's been a little over two months since I posted my original request for comments at the start of my pre-purchase research, but I'm happy to say that I finally made my first recording with the new rig last night: Jack White at the Heineken Music Hall in Amsterdam.

The combination of PMD661 and dual CCM 41Vs certainly isn't the stealthiest for my kind of work, but it's doable if one is willing to accept the increased risk of having one's collar felt. I'm brazen and foolhardy in roughly equal measure, so I'm up for the challenge. 

With some tweaking of my modus operandi and the familiarity that comes with prolonged use of any equipment, I should be able to significantly reduce my set-up time, as well as the amount of twitching and tugging needed out on the floor to relieve cable tension and whatnot during the gig. The 4060s/R-09HR combo is a doddle by comparison, though.

Anyway, yesterday's pull justifies all of the time-consuming product research and the considerable financial outlay. Even my wife agrees that the CCM 41V pull sounds better than the DPA 4060 pull I simultaneously made from the exact same location. My relief and my wife's relief are pretty strongly correlated, if you know what I mean, so I'm feeling very happy that it has worked out so well. I never doubted the quality of the equipment, but I did need to convince myself with an actual pull that I could run something like the CCM 41Vs in stealth mode and still achieve good results.

I'd once again like to thank everybody who contributed to the discussion. I truly couldn't have got to this point without you. And once again, a special thank you to Acidjack, who proverbially went above and beyond in his support of my cause.

[Sebastian]

Congratulations! I'm a few songs into this, but I can already tell this is an exceptionally good aud pull, especially considering it was recorded in 007 mode. However, the stereo image is a bit weak (not surprising for a stack tape).

And this whole "look like a suicide bomber" thing seems to have worked. It sounds like you scared off the rest of the audience

[acidjack]

Well, it's been a little over two months since I posted my original request for comments at the start of my pre-purchase research, but I'm happy to say that I finally made my first recording with the new rig last night: Jack White at the Heineken Music Hall in Amsterdam.

The combination of PMD661 and dual CCM 41Vs certainly isn't the stealthiest for my kind of work, but it's doable if one is willing to accept the increased risk of having one's collar felt. I'm brazen and foolhardy in roughly equal measure, so I'm up for the challenge. 

With some tweaking of my modus operandi and the familiarity that comes with prolonged use of any equipment, I should be able to significantly reduce my set-up time, as well as the amount of twitching and tugging needed out on the floor to relieve cable tension and whatnot during the gig. The 4060s/R-09HR combo is a doddle by comparison, though.

Anyway, yesterday's pull justifies all of the time-consuming product research and the considerable financial outlay. Even my wife agrees that the CCM 41V pull sounds better than the DPA 4060 pull I simultaneously made from the exact same location. My relief and my wife's relief are pretty strongly correlated, if you know what I mean, so I'm feeling very happy that it has worked out so well. I never doubted the quality of the equipment, but I did need to convince myself with an actual pull that I could run something like the CCM 41Vs in stealth mode and still achieve good results.

I'd once again like to thank everybody who contributed to the discussion. I truly couldn't have got to this point without you. And once again, a special thank you to Acidjack, who proverbially went above and beyond in his support of my cause.

Can't wait to go and grab your pull when I get home!  And, er, glad the advice from folks here seemed to pay off, too!  I'd have hated for you to buy $4500 mics and NOT think they were awesome

[ianmacd]

However, the stereo image is a bit weak (not surprising for a stack tape).

You've got me there. I'm an incorrigible stack taper, so you'll need a strong imagination to hear stereo in most of my recordings. 

And this whole "look like a suicide bomber" thing seems to have worked. It sounds like you scared off the rest of the audience

The audience was surprisingly quiet, given the nature of the show. Being close to the front and using supercardioids did the rest.

I'm now going to master the DPA 4060 pull that I made for insurance and comparison purposes. It will be interesting to hear how loud the audience is on that one.

[Sebastian]

What mic config did you run? A/B?

[ianmacd]

What mic config did you run? A/B?

I tried to approximate DINa. I'm still waiting for a proper mount bar to arrive from the US.

[Fried Chicken Boy]

Very cool, Ian, and thanks for the recording!  Can't wait to download and listen to your pull.

Edit to add: The fact that you stealthed with TWO rigs, one on its maiden voyage, is a pretty ballsy move.  Cheers to you!

[ianmacd]

Can't wait to download and listen to your pull.

Edit to add: The fact that you stealthed with TWO rigs, one on its maiden voyage, is a pretty ballsy move.  Cheers to you!

My second source of this gig from the DPA 4060s is now up and running for anyone who's interested in a doing comparison. You should be aware, however, that I did need to apply slight EQ to this second source to bring out the best in it. The EQ is very slight, but colours the comparison somewhat. Even so, it doesn't affect the difference in audience noise between the supercardioid pull and the omni pull, which is one of the more interesting areas to compare. The difference is very evident.

Anyway, it's out there if you want it.

The torrent page includes a poll where you can indicate which pull you prefer, if any.

[fandelive]

I just listened to the samples and the Schoeps source has a soundboard feel to it. It sounds very clear but is missing some room reverb'.
To my ears, I wounldn't say the DPA source sounds better, but it certainly "feels" better. But that's just me.

Maybe the next step is the post-production matrixing

Another interesting experience you could made is recording from two different spots :
- stack taping using omnis
- sweet spot 'triangle' using cards

Anyway, you have two killer sources here and most live tapers would be happy if they could end-up with results sounding like only one of them.

[robeti]

I just listened to the samples and the Schoeps source has a soundboard feel to it. It sounds very clear but is missing some room reverb'.
To my ears, I wounldn't say the DPA source sounds better, but it certainly "feels" better. But that's just me.
Anyway, you have two killer sources here and most live tapers would be happy if they could end-up with results sounding like only one of them.

I agree.

The Schoeps source sounds amazing, but it indeed has a soundboard feel to it.

[stepeanut]

Just got back from meeting Ian for the first time.  Lovely bloke.  Saw the famous CCM 41Vs, too; very tasty.  Here's hoping the weather holds out for him in Manchester this weekend.  It's been highly changeable already today.

[ianmacd]

Another interesting experience you could made is recording from two different spots :
- stack taping using omnis
- sweet spot 'triangle' using cards

Despite some middle age spread, I don't think even I can manage to stand in those two places at the same time. 

[ianmacd]

Just got back from meeting Ian for the first time.  Lovely bloke.  Saw the famous CCM 41Vs, too; very tasty.  Here's hoping the weather holds out for him in Manchester this weekend.  It's been highly changeable already today.

Well, thank you kindly, Stephen. It was great to meet you, too.

The cardioids were a lost cause in Heaton Park, due to a lethal combination of rowdiness, flying beer, daylight and rain.

The only safe and sane place to record from was the back of the pit, where the sound was also great, as it happens. That would have solved the flying beer problem, but the cables would have been a dead give-away in the daylight and it was impossible to remain even remotely still, due to the people pushing through the crowd all the time. Then there was the rain that came down on Saturday and looked as if it might come down at any moment on Friday, too.

In the end, I just couldn't risk such expensive equipment in a hostile environment where there was a real chance of damage.

Still, I got pulls of the Stone Roses on all three nights with the DPAs, the Sunday of which is actually really quite good. The other two are more in the category of enjoyable mementos for those who were there. I recorded some of the supports, too, but have yet to master those. The Roses sets are already up on DIME, though.

[fandelive]

Despite some middle age spread, I don't think even I can manage to stand in those two places at the same time. 

Bring a friend to the show

[John Willett]

I'm still waiting for a proper mount bar to arrive from the US.

Which one?

If it's the Schoeps, there is a great Schoeps distributor in the UK.

If it's a Grace SpaceBar, there is also a Grace Design distributor in the UK.

[ianmacd]

I'm still waiting for a proper mount bar to arrive from the US.

Which one?

The NOLA DINa. It's here now.