Topic: Which high-end cardioids?

[ianmacd]

Not something you should or probably even can.

Do clips even exist for the 402x or are the mics too heavy?

The 4021 is the absolute smallest because of the fixed RA cabling. That is what I used to have.  That cable entry can supposedly become fragile and break, though I never had an issue. The lemo version is more expensive, and also longer, but a more stable connector.

May I ask what you use now instead of the 4021s?

4021>v2 tinybox is a nice small rig.

You mean if I kept using the R-09HR, right? I wouldn't need the Tinybox with the PMD-661, would I?

With Schoeps you have tons of options.  The CCM series are beautiful little mics, but you pay a premium. The "cheaper" Schoeps solutions involve using either their CMR or KCY cables and running into something like a Naiant tinybox.

I like the look of the CCM 4V. I assume those plug straight into P48. Is that correct? The product page doesn't actually say. All of the mic manufacturers assume more knowledge than I have. 

In your position, I'd consider some used 402x at the right price and a v2 tinybox.  That will set you back about $2300 depending what type of used prices you get.

Again, I assume you mean for use with the R-09HR. If not, why is the Tinybox needed?

With the Schoeps, depending how you go, the caps will be at least $1000 (used; MK4s matched are ~$1700 new), then depending on the cabling, another $600-900 (the KCY is $900, it's probably the best cable for stealth).  Then the tinybox for another $220.

I find the Schoeps stuff particularly confusing. If I understand things correctly, the CCM 4 is basically the MK 4, but with the amp built in, so that none of the KCY, CMR and Tinybox or Schoeps pre-amps are needed. Is that correct? Oh, please tell me it is.

If I'm right, the CCM 4 and CCM 4V come with cables that allow them to plug straight into P48 XLR sockets. Correct?

Thanks everyone for all of the replies so far and all of the gentle hand-holding. The rig I have now is very straightforward. Outside of that, it's a big , confusing world.

[StuStu]

I find the Schoeps stuff particularly confusing. If I understand things correctly, the CCM 4 is basically the MK 4, but with the amp built in, so that none of the KCY, CMR and Tinybox or Schoeps pre-amps are needed. Is that correct? Oh, please tell me it is.

If I'm right, the CCM 4 and CCM 4V come with cables that allow them to plug straight into P48 XLR sockets. Correct?

Thanks everyone for all of the replies so far and all of the gentle hand-holding. The rig I have now is very straightforward. Outside of that, it's a big , confusing world.



You are correct. The good thing about the confusion is that it's caused by Schoeps many options. For me, the inability to switch caps made me decide to go a different route than the CCMs.


I chose the 4023 largely because it can used with any Schoeps/NOLA or Kwon bars.

[ianmacd]

Arrggg... I need to type faster. 3 replies while I was sitting here diddling away...

Yes, they're coming fast and furious. I somehow missed your reply until now. I wish I hadn't, because later replies assumed knowledge in your response. Reading this now, it makes things others have said since much clearer.

An alternative to the 661 would be to look at a tinybox preamp, but you're in the same boat in that getting it to Europe will take some work. The reason I toss out the tinybox is depending on your arrangement and stealthing setup, you may find 2 small boxes (the tinybox and the edirol) to work better than 1 bigger box.

The Aerco MP2 would be an option then, too, right? Maybe that's a bit bigger. That's another boutique product I'd have to import, but that's not insurmountable.

Of course, no pre-amp has the geek appeal of a new recorder like the 661. I'm trying hard to be objective, but the 661 beckons and is just looking for an excuse to be ordered. 

All of the referenced mics/setups so far (except for the kcy/mk4 one) need P48. The kcy/mk4 setup needs a specific set of adaptors to require P48 or a special preamp to power the caps without phantom power.

Thanks. Loud and clear.

The KCY solution still requires a pre-map, if I understand the product correctly. The CMR, on the other hand, is a pre-amp. Acidjack said the KCY was better for stealth, but they both look like thin cables in the pictures. Oh, I guess he meant that you cut out the need for a separate pre-amp, so the rig as a whole is more compact. Clunk. That was the sound of the penny finally dropping.

Yes, so MK4 + KCY + 661 is looking very nice, because you can switch the caps and go from wide all the way to hyper, relatively cheaply. Well, cheaply by Schoeps standards, at any rate. It beats having to buy a bunch of CCMs. Not that I ever would, because of the price, but I can imagine one day adding another set of caps when I reach the point of convincing myself I need them.

If you decide to go with the DPA 402x series, then you will likely be hunting around for "new" stock or buying used. DPA recently discontinued that line when they debuted the mmp-c bodies and changable capsule system which had a few improvements on the older design except if you're stealth taping as the bodies grew an inch.

Ah, interesting. I had no idea they had been discontinued.

The new system looks great. Somehow, I'd hardly seen any references to those model numbers, so I skipped over them in my quest for more information on the 402x range, which I knew to be more or less what I was looking for. That shows the danger of jumping to conclusions.

So, yes, a couple of MMP-C amps and MMC4011 caps would fit the bill very well, leaving the door open for MMC4006 caps later on. Then there's the MMC2011, which is a lot cheaper. I can see that it's a twin diaphragm mic, but again, that doesn't explain the price difference to a layman like myself.

Do the MMP-C amps come with cables or do those need to be purchased separately?

Speaking from experience and as yousef sort of notes, consider devising a new mounting method. It's not impossible to do what you're suggesting, but you're moving up to mics that are generally larger and more picky about how they are aimed. I found that when I was stealthing with cardioids, the restrictions your setup placed on me were not optimal. ymmv.

I'm happy to use a different mounting method. I mentioned clamping them only because that's what I do now with the 4060s. It's not optimal, but there are only so many places on the body that you can put them. You sent me a PM about that, though, so I'll respond to that separately.

[hi and lo]

Here's my hastily typed take on this, in no particular order, having owned just about everything except the 402x series:

I wouldn't automatically assume that 406x mics will sound bad in a seated venue where you cannot hug the stacks. I have heard and made plenty of amazing recordings done with omni's in massive arenas. It's natural to assume that cardioids are going to give you less reverberation and "pull" the sound source closer, but the actual benefit cardioids provide is much less exaggerated. If you have bad seats, it is going to sound reverberant regardless of directional pattern. Cardioids will greatly reduce the pickup of chatty kathys immediately behind you, but will only slightly minimize arena echo.

While it's true that Schoeps and DPA have different colorations, be careful about aligning yourself to either. Avoid forming any opinions without listening yourself because there is an endless amount of bad advice on this forum. Too many fluffers or people throwing out horrible generalizations like "Schoeps are dark/muddy" without having ever owned more than the one brand of mics they can afford and having an almost non-existent understanding of the subtleties of, for example, mk4s vs mk5s.

With that said, my thoughts on DPAs vs Schoeps are as follows. I do not think the 402x series, with their ruler flat freq response, is a very good option for what we do. I've heard plenty of terrific 4021 recordings (3 pairs have been run by team nyctaper), but when you're recording in less than optimal conditions I do not think their frequency response is very forgiving. If you are recording a grand piano in Carnegie Hall, I'll take DPAs all day long, but that's not where we record. For that reason, I generally prefer the HF emphasis of Schoeps MK5s or MK4vs and even prefer MK4s, to a degree, over the DPAs. The 406x series should not factor into this thought process because their primary advantage is being extremely small in size.

For a recorder, I have not seen anyone mention the Tascam DR-100 MKII yet. I would casually recommend this over the Marantz 661, but I haven't owned either. The Tascam is smaller and does most everything the Marantz does (phantom, digital in, internal mics) with better powering options. The R44 is definitely not an option and the only other recorder I would recommend is the M10, but then you'll need an external phantom power source.

For the Schoeps, I would not recommend the CCM series unless you've got money burning a whole in your pocket. Their cost is outrageous and if you pick up CCM4s, it would be impossible for most to afford a pair of CCM41s. I think Schoeps is doing a bit of a disservice by not offering them with interchangeable caps because I know they could, but they probably make a lot of money on these and doing so would really hurt their bottom line. I know a few people that stealth CCM4s, but they also bought them 10 years ago at half the price.

For an active stealth solution, the reutelhuber/nbox setup is really the best thing out there. These active cables are much thinner than stock KC5s, making them ideal for running in hat, and Naiant can make the Tinybox or PFA for use with them. Nbox cables + PFA + tascam dr100 is basically the ideal setup and significantly cheaper than even a single CCM pair.

Again for Schoeps, be very careful about what capsule you are listening to. The MK4s are the most common, but they are also have the least HF emphasis and generally the reason people have an immediate adverse reaction to the brand. The 4vs, 5s, and 41s are the most optimal caps for what we do, with the advantages being as follows:

- 4vs and 5s have a similar HF emphasis, but 4vs are much easier to run in hat while being less optimal to run on a stand (at least I think so).
- 5s have the switchable pattern, making them the single best value out there.
- 41s are, imo, the best hyper on the planet.

If I stealthed more I would get the 4vs, but I don't so I sold the 4vs and kept my 5s (having owned both simultaneously).

Lastly, while I can't recommend MHBOs because they have almost no bass response, I would keep in mind that active solutions are likely on the way for AKGs and Gefells. I have always loved AKGs (not so much gefells) and believe they will be a good bit cheaper.

[hi and lo]

CMRs are not a preamp. They are a low-voltage microphone body replacement and are advantageous mostly because of their cost and ease of powering. You will still need a PFA + 12 or 48v phantom as well as the gain of an external preamp of the mic input of your recorder. With that said, CMR > PFA > 661 or DR-100 MKII is a very sick setup.

[aaronji]

The Aerco MP2 would be an option then, too, right? Maybe that's a bit bigger. That's another boutique product I'd have to import, but that's not insurmountable.

Small battery-powered pre-amps with an 1/8" out include (in addition to tinybox) the Aerco MP-2 (as you mentioned), the Sound Devices MP-2/MixPre/MixPre-D (plus the Shure version; FP-24 maybe), and the Sonosax SX-M2.  Oh, and the littlebox.  Not all of those are still in production.  And I am sure that is not an exhaustive list...

Of course, no pre-amp has the geek appeal of a new recorder like the 661. I'm trying hard to be objective, but the 661 beckons and is just looking for an excuse to be ordered. 

Really???  Personally, I think the pres have more geek appeal than the recorders, not to mention a bigger effect on the sound...

[newplanet7]

So you are up for an all in one recorder?
The tascam dr100mkII has digi in p48 and a slew of other features and is half of what the 661 is. I think either would be an ok choice for just
stealthing and running straight in. It's also smaller than the 661.

[acidjack]

I can't snip all these quotes, but:

- Yes, I think the 4021s are too heavy to "clip" and there is no such thing. Generally hats are your friend
- I run Schoeps in a variety of setups, but hardly ever stealth. When I do I usually run 4061s.  I mean, I eventually *will* stealth with my Schoeps, but that's not my primary concern.  That said, I think Schoeps>tinybox is a great setup - it's comparable to the DPAs, not necessarily "better" or "worse".  FWIW I prefer the sound of the DPA 4021 to the Schoeps MK4.  In taping situations, it depends. Sometimes I believe the Schoeps MK5 and MK4V are superior to the DPAs for what we do; I never have felt that way about 4021 vs. MK4.  The 4021s are very clean and transparent, for good or ill.
- With DPA 402x>PMD661 that's all you need. Dan aka nyctaper ran 4021>PMD660 as his stealth rig for years and got great results. The 661 is smaller.

Schoeps do make it a tad confusing, but let me see if I can help a little:

MKx = a capsule (4=cardiod, 4V=vertical-address cardiod, 5=switchable cardiod/omni, 2=omni, 41=supercardiod, etc.)
KCx = a cable
CCM = a compact body
CMC = a normal-sized body
CMR = a compact Schoeps cable designed for use with remote systems, but also useful for taping, which is about the size of a CCM and can be run off of less power (hence its popularity with the first tinybox)

Those are the main abbreviations you'll see.  The numbers stay consistent.  So the "CCM4" means a compact cardiod mic (for which you cannot switch the caps).  MK4>CMC6 means "MK4 capsules running into CMC6 bodies" 

Personally, I would not go with CCMs even though they sound awesome, just because the price is higher than the various other Schoeps setups.  That is the beauty of Schoeps - lots of versatility, plus of course uncompromising world-class quality.  DPA is a bit less versatile but the quality is outstanding if not better in terms of build and sound *in the right situation*

I generally agree with all of hi and lo's comments, fwiw, though he's a little harsh on the DPAs  I do agree that the MK4 is the cap that "gives Schoeps a bad name with some" if you can call it that.  It is darker and has a flatter response, whereas the MK5 and MK4V have intentionally non-flat responses.  My favorite Schoeps caps are the MK41 and the MK5.  My opinion is that *relative to other manufacturers* the MK41 is the most impressive, meaning - DPA, AKG, Milab, Neumann etc. all make a great cardiod mic.  Nobody makes a hypercardiod mic IMHO with the richness of the MK41.  [ducks as fluffers of AKG 63s, etc. etc. chime in]  The MK41 was ultimately the main reason I got rid of the DPAs; it was just easier to run one system. 

Oh, one other point, you would need an additional custom solution to go KCY>661.  The KCY is terminated in a binder connector.  Naiant can build tinyboxes that work with KCY, but to go KCY>any random preamp you need a special "PFA" which is a sort of hybridized Naiant + other people solution (the primary technology is the Naiant PFA, which perhaps is the most ingenious of all of Jon's products...)

Going with your stated goal of remaining in Europe and NOT using U.S. custom gear (plenty of good reasons for that), DPA 4021>661 is the most achievable for you.

Not something you should or probably even can.

Do clips even exist for the 402x or are the mics too heavy?

The 4021 is the absolute smallest because of the fixed RA cabling. That is what I used to have.  That cable entry can supposedly become fragile and break, though I never had an issue. The lemo version is more expensive, and also longer, but a more stable connector.

May I ask what you use now instead of the 4021s?

4021>v2 tinybox is a nice small rig.

You mean if I kept using the R-09HR, right? I wouldn't need the Tinybox with the PMD-661, would I?

With Schoeps you have tons of options.  The CCM series are beautiful little mics, but you pay a premium. The "cheaper" Schoeps solutions involve using either their CMR or KCY cables and running into something like a Naiant tinybox.

I like the look of the CCM 4V. I assume those plug straight into P48. Is that correct? The product page doesn't actually say. All of the mic manufacturers assume more knowledge than I have. 

In your position, I'd consider some used 402x at the right price and a v2 tinybox.  That will set you back about $2300 depending what type of used prices you get.

Again, I assume you mean for use with the R-09HR. If not, why is the Tinybox needed?

With the Schoeps, depending how you go, the caps will be at least $1000 (used; MK4s matched are ~$1700 new), then depending on the cabling, another $600-900 (the KCY is $900, it's probably the best cable for stealth).  Then the tinybox for another $220.

I find the Schoeps stuff particularly confusing. If I understand things correctly, the CCM 4 is basically the MK 4, but with the amp built in, so that none of the KCY, CMR and Tinybox or Schoeps pre-amps are needed. Is that correct? Oh, please tell me it is.

If I'm right, the CCM 4 and CCM 4V come with cables that allow them to plug straight into P48 XLR sockets. Correct?

Thanks everyone for all of the replies so far and all of the gentle hand-holding. The rig I have now is very straightforward. Outside of that, it's a big , confusing world.

[darktrain]

check this thread, it also has a link to the cmr thread

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=136697.0

here is my lma link which has some cmr shows(most of my stuff is "less than open" -  http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%22darktrain%22

and heres my "less than open shows"  http://www.dimeadozen.org/account-details.php?id=139519

if you want to see what the cmr setup is capable of

[ianmacd]

I wouldn't automatically assume that 406x mics will sound bad in a seated venue where you cannot hug the stacks. I have heard and made plenty of amazing recordings done with omni's in massive arenas. It's natural to assume that cardioids are going to give you less reverberation and "pull" the sound source closer, but the actual benefit cardioids provide is much less exaggerated.

First of all, thank you for your long and detailed response.

Yes, I've made some decent recordings in seated venues with the 4060s. They turned out surprisingly well, but instead of leaving it at that, the perfectionist in me started to imagine what I could have achieved with cardioids.

It's good to get a reality check from someone with lots of experience in this area that cardioids aren't a magic wand.

While it's true that Schoeps and DPA have different colorations, be careful about aligning yourself to either. Avoid forming any opinions without listening yourself because there is an endless amount of bad advice on this forum. Too many fluffers or people throwing out horrible generalizations like "Schoeps are dark/muddy" without having ever owned more than the one brand of mics they can afford and having an almost non-existent understanding of the subtleties of, for example, mk4s vs mk5s.

Great advice. Thanks. From a novice's perspective, it's all too easy to read the same comment 100 times about product X and start to believe it, even when one has never heard it with one's own ears.

I'll hold off on forming an opinion on Schoeps vs. DPA cardioids until I've heard samples of each recorded from the same source material.

I do not think the 402x series, with their ruler flat freq response, is a very good option for what we do. I've heard plenty of terrific 4021 recordings (3 pairs have been run by team nyctaper), but when you're recording in less than optimal conditions I do not think their frequency response is very forgiving.

Yes. That may even be true across the range of DPA mics. There are often times when I'd like a little more HF response, but the 4060s give me exactly what my ears heard, for better or worse.

For a recorder, I have not seen anyone mention the Tascam DR-100 MKII yet. I would casually recommend this over the Marantz 661, but I haven't owned either. The Tascam is smaller and does most everything the Marantz does (phantom, digital in, internal mics) with better powering options.

It's a lot cheaper than the 661, that's for sure. What's the catch? With no first-hand knowledge of either, assuming the feature sets are roughly equivalent, I'd have to wonder about build quality. Or are the Marantz units just overpriced for what they are?

For the Schoeps, I would not recommend the CCM series unless you've got money burning a whole in your pocket. Their cost is outrageous and if you pick up CCM4s, it would be impossible for most to afford a pair of CCM41s.

Yes, I'd pretty much already ruled those out on the basis of cost and inflexibility.

For an active stealth solution, the reutelhuber/nbox setup is really the best thing out there. These active cables are much thinner than stock KC5s, making them ideal for running in hat, and Naiant can make the Tinybox or PFA for use with them. Nbox cables + PFA + tascam dr100 is basically the ideal setup and significantly cheaper than even a single CCM pair.

Understood, although it would be nice not to need a separate battery box or pre-amp. One point of failure fewer in the chain, is what I'm thinking. The nice thing about the DPA 402x and the MMP-C range of capsules is that P48 is all that's needed.

The 4vs, 5s, and 41s are the most optimal caps for what we do, with the advantages being as follows:

- 4vs and 5s have a similar HF emphasis, but 4vs are much easier to run in hat while being less optimal to run on a stand (at least I think so).
- 5s have the switchable pattern, making them the single best value out there.
- 41s are, imo, the best hyper on the planet.

If I stealthed more I would get the 4vs, but I don't so I sold the 4vs and kept my 5s (having owned both simultaneously).

Again, thanks.

[page]

(snip) I have always loved AKGs (not so much gefells)

We'll never be able to share gear or produce anything together; we have such vastly different preferences. (gefell > akg, dpa > schoeps, sweet jeebus what else...)

Of course, no pre-amp has the geek appeal of a new recorder like the 661. I'm trying hard to be objective, but the 661 beckons and is just looking for an excuse to be ordered. 

Really???  Personally, I think the pres have more geek appeal than the recorders, not to mention a bigger effect on the sound...

agree with aaron on this one. I think very few recorders under $1k have more geek appeal than preamps under $1k.

For a recorder, I have not seen anyone mention the Tascam DR-100 MKII yet. I would casually recommend this over the Marantz 661, but I haven't owned either. The Tascam is smaller and does most everything the Marantz does (phantom, digital in, internal mics) with better powering options.

It's a lot cheaper than the 661, that's for sure. What's the catch? With no first-hand knowledge of either, assuming the feature sets are roughly equivalent, I'd have to wonder about build quality. Or are the Marantz units just overpriced for what they are?

There are a couple of threads here about the marantz units and the new tascam (tonedeaf here baught one and did a big review on it). Look around in the recorder section of the forum and they should be easy to find.

[F.O.Bean]

I would either go with the 402x DPA/B+K's, or the Schoeps MK4/CCM4/KCY Route

[ianmacd]

I would either go with the 402x DPA/B+K's, or the Schoeps MK4/CCM4/KCY Route

What is/are B+K's?

[F.O.Bean]

The old name for DPA's

[ianmacd]

- Yes, I think the 4021s are too heavy to "clip" and there is no such thing. Generally hats are your friend
- I run Schoeps in a variety of setups, but hardly ever stealth. When I do I usually run 4061s.  I mean, I eventually *will* stealth with my Schoeps, but that's not my primary concern.  That said, I think Schoeps>tinybox is a great setup - it's comparable to the DPAs, not necessarily "better" or "worse".  FWIW I prefer the sound of the DPA 4021 to the Schoeps MK4.  In taping situations, it depends. Sometimes I believe the Schoeps MK5 and MK4V are superior to the DPAs for what we do; I never have felt that way about 4021 vs. MK4.  The 4021s are very clean and transparent, for good or ill.

Thanks for those answers. There's no substitute for someone with first-hand experience.

Schoeps do make it a tad confusing, but let me see if I can help a little:

MKx = a capsule (4=cardiod, 4V=vertical-address cardiod, 5=switchable cardiod/omni, 2=omni, 41=supercardiod, etc.)
KCx = a cable
CCM = a compact body
CMC = a normal-sized body
CMR = a compact Schoeps cable designed for use with remote systems, but also useful for taping, which is about the size of a CCM and can be run off of less power (hence its popularity with the first tinybox)

Those are the main abbreviations you'll see.  The numbers stay consistent.  So the "CCM4" means a compact cardiod mic (for which you cannot switch the caps).  MK4>CMC6 means "MK4 capsules running into CMC6 bodies"

Thanks. I pretty much had it figured out now, but a glossary like yours on Schoeps' site would have saved me a lot of time.

Nobody makes a hypercardiod mic IMHO with the richness of the MK41.  [ducks as fluffers of AKG 63s, etc. etc. chime in]  The MK41 was ultimately the main reason I got rid of the DPAs; it was just easier to run one system. 

Again, I appreciate the opinion of someone with lots of first-hand experience.

Going with your stated goal of remaining in Europe and NOT using U.S. custom gear (plenty of good reasons for that), DPA 4021>661 is the most achievable for you.

Do you have an opinion about the 402x vs. MMP-C + MMC4011 capsules? The latter is much more appealing on paper, at least.

Cheers,

Ian