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Poll

What is your favorite sounding hypercardioid capsule?

Schoeps mk41
22 (21.8%)
Schoeps mk41V
8 (7.9%)
AKG ck63
24 (23.8%)
Gefell m21
20 (19.8%)
Neumann ak50
9 (8.9%)
beyerdynamic ck950
2 (2%)
MBHO ka500
3 (3%)
Milab vm-44 (super)
3 (3%)
I prefer shotguns (or something else not listed here) you insensitive clod!
10 (9.9%)

Total Members Voted: 101

Author Topic: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?  (Read 27952 times)

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Offline page

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Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« on: January 19, 2013, 12:57:44 AM »
So what is the hypercardioid capsule (as defined by anything tighter than a standard cardioid but less restrictive than a shotgun). Looking for sound characteristics in your reasons for why you like them (tonal balance, texture, harmonic distortion in certain frequency areas, etc).
"This is a common practice we have on the bus; debating facts that we could easily find through printed material. It's like, how far is it today? I think it's four hours, and someone else comes in at 11 hours, and well, then we'll... just... talk about it..." - Jeb Puryear

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Offline ts

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2013, 07:44:27 AM »
AKG CK63. Price and the Active setups now available.

Offline Hypnocracy

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2013, 11:15:12 AM »
ADK A-51 TL...Not a Capsule so not in the running but...I've not been turned off by the sound of it like other Hyper Capsule's I've ran against my AKG and Milab Card's
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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2013, 12:52:12 PM »
ADK A-51 TL...Not a Capsule so not in the running but...I've not been turned off by the sound of it like other Hyper Capsule's I've ran against my AKG and Milab Card's

x2

That's the pattern I use most with the TLs these days.  I don't own any of those listed, but of what I've heard I like the sound of and voted for Gefell M21s.
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Offline yltfan

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2013, 07:25:39 PM »
I'm happy with my AT 4053 hypers.
Mics: AT4051, AT4053, KM140, AKG C414, Beyerdynamic MEM86 guns, Nak cm300, AT853 4.7mod
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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2013, 07:45:51 PM »
AKG CK63. Price and the Active setups now available.

Me too.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements,  Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2013, 07:59:36 PM »
mk41. best SOUNDING hyper out there IMO!
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2013, 08:05:00 PM »
I don't own any of those, but some of my favorite recordings ever have been made with mk41s, so... They get my vote :)
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Offline JD

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2013, 08:14:06 PM »
That's easy...gefell m210's... the only hyper I consistently like the sound of.
Mics: DPA 4022, 4060; Nevaton MC51, MCE400; Gefell sms2000, m20, m21, m27
Pres: DPA MMA6000; Grace V2; Portico 5012; Sonosax SX-M2
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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2013, 10:19:10 PM »
That's easy...gefell m210's... the only hyper I consistently like the sound of.

While I like my MBHO, because they sound crisp and tight, but reveal enough openess to still sound believable.

The gefells do sound rather nice.....and if I didn't have the MBHO I would grab the gefells in a heartbeat. 
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 11:28:50 PM by OOK »
DPA/HEB 4060's > R09HR
MBHO648/KA100Lk/KA200/KA300/KA500 > SD702

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2013, 11:25:25 PM »
I want to know who voted for the milabs. what samples have they heard that I haven't? (I haven't heard any....)

edit: typo
« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 10:04:14 AM by page »
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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2013, 05:11:08 AM »
Gefell M21. Because they sound the best.
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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2013, 12:36:04 PM »
I voted for the mk41v, but love the mk41 as well. The selling point is the smoothness of the off axis frequency response. It sounds just as good, just less of it.

I can't say the same for any other hyper.
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, GAKables 10' & 20' 6-channel snakes, Darktrain 2 & 4 channel KCY and mini xlr extensions:
Preamps:    Schoeps VMS 02iub, Naiant IPA, Sound Devices Mixpre6 I
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6 I, Sony PCM m10

Home Playback: Mac Mini> Mytek Brooklyn+> McIntosh MC162> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-4XX / Beyerdynamic DT880

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2013, 01:30:28 PM »
I voted for gefell M21.  Which is what I have now.  I'm not voting that way to rationalize my current ownership, I currently own the ones I like after trying a bunch of other choices.

I had AKG483's for a couple of years.  When the room sucks they will cut through the mud like nothing else. But that sizzle is fatiguing to listen to, and that's something I couldn't get over.

I've never owned MK41's or 41V's, and they might get my vote in some situations, and if cost was no issue.  I have a pair of vintage MK241's right now, which are the predecessor to the mk41's.  I like them, I'm just not sure I like them better than the Gefells.  My MK241's aren't as well matched as my Gefells, and that probably has a lot do with it.

I had Earthworks Z30XL hypers for a while and ran them a lot.  Sometimes they were absolutely fantastic. http://archive.org/details/gptn2008-06-27.earthworks.flac16f
Other times they were thin.  It was kind of hit-or-miss and I moved on eventually.

I picked up the Gefell hypers in a trade a couple of years ago (for my 414's that I wasn't using much) and I've fallen in love with them.  Smooooth.  They are "half way between the brightness of the AKG's and the fatness of the Schoeps" which to my ear is just about right.  They seem to emphasize the high end detail a little but it's not fatiguing.  The fact that I got a set of caps AND bodies for the price of Schoeps caps alone is icing on the cake.

I like TL's with hyper mode too, but they aren't my favorite choice. LD's have a ton of off axis coloration, by which I mean they don't reject the boomy low frequencies coming in from the side as well as most SD's, so they won't cut through the mud in a boomy room as well as SD's (listen to this)  http://archive.org/details/matisyahu2010-12-09.adktl.flac16f
But they are certainly more flexible in general.  TL's are perhaps my favorite mics, just not my favorite hypers.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 01:38:35 PM by SmokinJoe »
Mics: Schoeps MK4 & CMC5's / Gefell M200's & M210's / ADK-TL / DPA4061's
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Offline bluewingolive

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2013, 02:31:54 PM »
I'm happy with my AT 4053 hypers.
X2

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2013, 03:08:12 PM »
i had to go with "I prefer shotguns (or something else not listed here) you insensitive clod!" since my Sennheiser MKH8050 mics were not on the list.  but as a supercard, not a hypercard, perhaps it's not supposed to be on the list.  anyway, i love my 8050s regardless.

why?  very balanced across the entire frequency spectrum, excellent bass, physically compact, no need for active cables, passive remote cables make it a great solution for open taping or  >:D, excellent side and rear noise rejection.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 03:15:39 PM by bass_ur_face »

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2013, 03:37:02 PM »
i had to go with "I prefer shotguns (or something else not listed here) you insensitive clod!" since my Sennheiser MKH8050 mics were not on the list.  but as a supercard, not a hypercard, perhaps it's not supposed to be on the list. 


nope, that's an oversight on my part as some could debate that the gefell m21 isn't a true hyper card per se either, but we consider it one for discussion purposes here. I was trying to compile all of the small removable/module setups and forgot about the Senns. my bad.
"This is a common practice we have on the bus; debating facts that we could easily find through printed material. It's like, how far is it today? I think it's four hours, and someone else comes in at 11 hours, and well, then we'll... just... talk about it..." - Jeb Puryear

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2013, 04:03:11 PM »
The MK41 is actually a supercard as well.
MK5, MK8, MK41, KM184D, CK77, B3 ---CMD 2U XT, KC5, KCY, AKI---KCY Tinybox, Ugly BB---AETA 4MinX, PMD661 MKII, R-26, M-10, MR-1

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2013, 05:59:20 PM »
MK41. Have owned Gefell M210, listened to and used KM150 a lot, and have hyper pattern in my 414s and would not trade the 41s for anything else. They have the most natural sound to me, with full, rich bass, crisp but not krispy highs, and a smooth midrange.

I also have the KA500 from MBHO. From two uses so far all I can conclude is that they seem "good" and have nice full bass, too. But don't think I prefer them to the 41s.

Yltfan's 4053s may well be my next favorite hypers I've heard. The raw pull I mixed down of his from them was great, and I had Schoeps, Senn and MBHO sources to compare it to.
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
Decks: Sound Devices MixPre 6, Zoom F8, M10, D50

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2013, 09:05:42 AM »
  I don't own any of those listed, but of what I've heard I like the sound of and voted for Gefell M21s.

I voted for the Gefell M21 as well (the capsule for the SMS 2000 series).

But there are other excellent super/hyper-cardioids missing from the list.

EG:-
Gefell M310
Gefell M910
Sennheiser MKH 50
Sennheiser MKH 8050
etc...

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2013, 09:39:17 AM »
MG21's for me. Just like Joe had mentioned, on their own they are a nice balance within the sound spectrum of warm to bright. If used with a transformer based pre-amp though you can always add warmth if that is your desire also. Far easier to add warm in the recording stage than to try and brighten a warm recording after the fact in post in my experience. I've run the M21's with the Neve Portico 5012 & with the Aerco MP2 and IMHO, I get all the oomph of the 41's, but with none of the loss of clarity. Just my humble opinion.
Microtech Gefell M200: M20/M21/M27 caps> Bumblebee MiAGi-II/Darktrain silver cable's/"Chuck" Belden cables> Aerco MP-2 or Busman modded DR-680 pre-amps> Darktrain cables & interconnects> Tascam DR-680 (Busman mod)
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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2013, 11:30:53 AM »
MG21's for me as well.  I would be curious to know what I'd think about the Milab supercards given how much I liked the Milab vm44 cards, but I've never run the supercards or even heard a recording with them.

I've owned the AKG ck63s, Gefell m21, MBHO ka500 hypers, Neumann ak50's, and currently own the Beyer mc950's.  That's from the list, I've also own the Audix m1290 with hypercard capsules (and card capsules) and have owned the AKG 393 bluelines, Charter Oak m900s, and Busman-modded Aventone ck? hypers (which are supposedly the same as the Busman mics, at least the initial version).

The Gefells to me had the best balance/tone, including an excellent midrange and sweet high end.  I've never been a fan of Schoeps mics for recording PA-amplified music, though I admit the mk41 are excellent hypers, and I can see those being the best to many people's ears.  Actually, in recent years I have been enjoying the schoeps sound more and more, though I still prefer the DPAs, Milabs, and Gefells to schoeps.

Like many here, I find the AKGs to have a sizzle to them that gets fatiguing.  I owned and ran several different versions of AKG small diaphragm mics, including the 460s, 480s, jklabs active box, and JW-mod 460s. I used to love them, but I go back to my old tapes and just don't like them as much as my other mics.

The Neumann ak50 hypers could really be a contender these days for me.  They have too much of a low end rolloff that generally makes them a bit thin.  But otherwise, they are fantastic and have excellent/even off axis response.  They take post processing and EQ really well, and it is quite easy to add back some of the rolled off low end in post.  So as is, they are not the best, but with very minimal EQ on the low end, they sound fantastic, and probably are up there with my favorite hypers.

Also, one thing I like about the Gefell m21 hypers is that they sound more natural than most hypers.  I came to the conclusion though that this might be because their pattern really lies somewhere between card and hyper, though they are listed as hypers.  The Milabs I used to own have a cardioid pattern that lies between card and hyper for many of the frequencies, though it is listed as a cardioid.  This is the reason I ultimately got rid of my Gefell m210s -- I didn't find that much difference in pattern compared to my Milabs.

BTW, I now own both the Beyer mc950 hypers and Audix m1290 hypers.  Both are excellent sounding hypers to my ear, esp for the money.  They definitely aren't Gefell, Neumann, or Schoeps quality, but with a little bit of post-processing tweaking can sound very good and make for excellent hypercard recordings.  I like both better than the MBHOs I owned and better than all the cheaper hypers I've owned.  I like the Beyer mc950s better than the AKG ck63 hypers, and may even like the Audix m1290hc better than the AKGs.  I always thought the Audix m1290s had a similar sound as the AKGs, but they don't seem to have the fatiguing sound I hear in the AKGs.
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
Preamp:  none <sniff>
Recorders:  Sound Devices MixPre-6, Sony PCM-M10, Zoom H4nPro

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2013, 11:50:36 AM »
MG21's for me as well.  I would be curious to know what I'd think about the Milab supercards given how much I liked the Milab vm44 cards, but I've never run the supercards or even heard a recording with them.

I've owned the AKG ck63s, Gefell m21, MBHO ka500 hypers, Neumann ak50's, and currently own the Beyer mc950's.  That's from the list, I've also own the Audix m1290 with hypercard capsules (and card capsules) and have owned the AKG 393 bluelines, Charter Oak m900s, and Busman-modded Aventone ck? hypers (which are supposedly the same as the Busman mics, at least the initial version).

The Gefells to me had the best balance/tone, including an excellent midrange and sweet high end.  I've never been a fan of Schoeps mics for recording PA-amplified music, though I admit the mk41 are excellent hypers, and I can see those being the best to many people's ears.  Actually, in recent years I have been enjoying the schoeps sound more and more, though I still prefer the DPAs, Milabs, and Gefells to schoeps.

Like many here, I find the AKGs to have a sizzle to them that gets fatiguing.  I owned and ran several different versions of AKG small diaphragm mics, including the 460s, 480s, jklabs active box, and JW-mod 460s. I used to love them, but I go back to my old tapes and just don't like them as much as my other mics.

The Neumann ak50 hypers could really be a contender these days for me.  They have too much of a low end rolloff that generally makes them a bit thin.  But otherwise, they are fantastic and have excellent/even off axis response.  They take post processing and EQ really well, and it is quite easy to add back some of the rolled off low end in post.  So as is, they are not the best, but with very minimal EQ on the low end, they sound fantastic, and probably are up there with my favorite hypers.

Also, one thing I like about the Gefell m21 hypers is that they sound more natural than most hypers.  I came to the conclusion though that this might be because their pattern really lies somewhere between card and hyper, though they are listed as hypers.  The Milabs I used to own have a cardioid pattern that lies between card and hyper for many of the frequencies, though it is listed as a cardioid.  This is the reason I ultimately got rid of my Gefell m210s -- I didn't find that much difference in pattern compared to my Milabs.

BTW, I now own both the Beyer mc950 hypers and Audix m1290 hypers.  Both are excellent sounding hypers to my ear, esp for the money.  They definitely aren't Gefell, Neumann, or Schoeps quality, but with a little bit of post-processing tweaking can sound very good and make for excellent hypercard recordings.  I like both better than the MBHOs I owned and better than all the cheaper hypers I've owned.  I like the Beyer mc950s better than the AKG ck63 hypers, and may even like the Audix m1290hc better than the AKGs.  I always thought the Audix m1290s had a similar sound as the AKGs, but they don't seem to have the fatiguing sound I hear in the AKGs.

Nice write up.    OOK
DPA/HEB 4060's > R09HR
MBHO648/KA100Lk/KA200/KA300/KA500 > SD702

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2013, 12:03:27 PM »

I've owned the AKG ck63s, Gefell m21, MBHO ka500 hypers, Neumann ak50's, and currently own the Beyer mc950's.  That's from the list, I've also own the Audix m1290 with hypercard capsules (and card capsules) and have owned the AKG 393 bluelines, Charter Oak m900s, and Busman-modded Aventone ck? hypers (which are supposedly the same as the Busman mics, at least the initial version).


Every time I start to think I have a serious problem with over the top sluttage, I read a post like this, and I don't feel so bad.  ;D
Mics: Schoeps MK4 & CMC5's / Gefell M200's & M210's / ADK-TL / DPA4061's
Pres: V3 / ST9100
Decks: Oade Concert Mod R4Pro / R09 / R05
Photo: Nikon D700's, 2.8 Zooms, and Zeiss primes
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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2013, 12:08:48 PM »

I've owned the AKG ck63s, Gefell m21, MBHO ka500 hypers, Neumann ak50's, and currently own the Beyer mc950's.  That's from the list, I've also own the Audix m1290 with hypercard capsules (and card capsules) and have owned the AKG 393 bluelines, Charter Oak m900s, and Busman-modded Aventone ck? hypers (which are supposedly the same as the Busman mics, at least the initial version).


Every time I start to think I have a serious problem with over the top sluttage, I read a post like this, and I don't feel so bad.  ;D

Ah Hello... denial is just not a river in Egypt....

8 Mics: Schoeps CMMT30,MK241 / Gefell M200,M20,M21 / ADK-TL / AKG 460's,CK61's,CK8's,CK1X's / AT853's / DPA4061's
Pres: V3 / Littlebox / ST9100
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« Last Edit: January 21, 2013, 12:11:19 PM by OOK »
DPA/HEB 4060's > R09HR
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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2013, 12:47:23 PM »
the AKG ck8 capsule is also worth mentioning.  i consider it a short shotgun, but AKG calls it a hyper.  it gives me a more "reach" compared to the MKH8050 and is an excellent solution when recording from the OTS.  the ck8 also has good bass response and a smooth high end.   

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2013, 12:59:35 PM »
the AKG ck8 capsule is also worth mentioning.  i consider it a short shotgun, but AKG calls it a hyper.  it gives me a more "reach" compared to the MKH8050 and is an excellent solution when recording from the OTS.  the ck8 also has good bass response and a smooth high end.   

dpa's 4017 is considered a hyper as well, but it's really a shotgun for most intents and purposes here.

everyone's a critic.  :P  :)
"This is a common practice we have on the bus; debating facts that we could easily find through printed material. It's like, how far is it today? I think it's four hours, and someone else comes in at 11 hours, and well, then we'll... just... talk about it..." - Jeb Puryear

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2013, 02:22:56 PM »

I've owned the AKG ck63s, Gefell m21, MBHO ka500 hypers, Neumann ak50's, and currently own the Beyer mc950's.  That's from the list, I've also own the Audix m1290 with hypercard capsules (and card capsules) and have owned the AKG 393 bluelines, Charter Oak m900s, and Busman-modded Aventone ck? hypers (which are supposedly the same as the Busman mics, at least the initial version).


Every time I start to think I have a serious problem with over the top sluttage, I read a post like this, and I don't feel so bad.  ;D

You are a slut Joe, just admit it.  ;)
Microtech Gefell M200: M20/M21/M27 caps> Bumblebee MiAGi-II/Darktrain silver cable's/"Chuck" Belden cables> Aerco MP-2 or Busman modded DR-680 pre-amps> Darktrain cables & interconnects> Tascam DR-680 (Busman mod)
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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2013, 03:27:17 PM »
As long as we're talking fatigue. My old rig: JW's>CK63>V3. That rig took fatigue to a whole new level. :o

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2013, 03:50:51 PM »
As long as we're talking fatigue. My old rig: JW's>CK63>V3. That rig took fatigue to a whole new level. :o

You need 41s not 4s ;D
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2013, 05:33:49 PM »
As long as we're talking fatigue. My old rig: JW's>CK63>V3. That rig took fatigue to a whole new level. :o

You need 41s not 4s ;D

Bean, i would have been disappointed if you did not chime in with a plug for the 41s.  they are indeed great mics. 

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2013, 06:43:20 PM »
Hehehe ;D
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2013, 11:02:18 AM »
As long as we're talking fatigue. My old rig: JW's>CK63>V3. That rig took fatigue to a whole new level. :o

You need 41s not 4s ;D

I had a 641 set and 21's. It was so long ago the 641 set was 1850. :o Like everything else I've owned, I sold them. :'(

I going to try to build a MK4>Nick cables>PFA's rig. ;)

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2013, 01:23:33 PM »
I know this isn't a scientific study or anything, but I'm observing that almost all of the answers are based on what you currently own or what series you currently own.  I suppose that's logical...why would you own something else if you didn't think what you had sounded good/best?  On the other hand, 'favorite' is usually significantly biased by the homer factor so it most definitely can't be translated to an objective statement of which is the best sounding hyper capsule.  I know nobody has really said that, but thought I'd throw it out there.

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2013, 01:31:21 PM »
I know this isn't a scientific study or anything, but I'm observing that almost all of the answers are based on what you currently own or what series you currently own.  I suppose that's logical...why would you own something else if you didn't think what you had sounded good/best?  On the other hand, 'favorite' is usually significantly biased by the homer factor so it most definitely can't be translated to an objective statement of which is the best sounding hyper capsule.  I know nobody has really said that, but thought I'd throw it out there.

True to some extent I'm sure, but as I wrote, I've owned quite a number of removable capsule hypercard mics.  And I was mainly putting forth as best hypers I no longer own (m210s) and hypers I've never owned (schoeps mk41).

To some extent, it would make sense that you own what you think best, so suggestions on what is best reflect choices that have already been made.  To me though, I recognize I liked the Gefells best, but I don't prefer the hypercard pattern overall, and would rather put less money into hypers and more money into cardioids which I prefer better.
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
Preamp:  none <sniff>
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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2013, 01:41:02 PM »
but I don't prefer the hypercard pattern overall, and would rather put less money into hypers and more money into cardioids which I prefer better.

This is the camp I've generally been in too.  I've generally preferred the overall tonal flavors and authenticity of my cards, while respecting the off-axis rejection offered by a good hyper.  Since I'm not made of money and have had to make a choice, I opted for the tonal flavors over the off-axis rejection.

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2013, 06:38:44 PM »
I avoided super/hyper-cardioids for years, partly because good sounding examples are generally a good bit more costly than comparable sounding microphones with wider pickup patterns (cardioids, especially omnidirectionals), but also because the use of them to help mitigate the effects of unfavorable acoustics and/or excessive crowd noise, while effective, effectively compounds the issue of ‘less than optimal recording conditions’ with ‘less than great sounding pattern in a price range I’m comfortable with’.

Usually I simply don’t care to record in those less than good conditions anyway, so the motivation to spend enough to get decent ‘more-directional-than-cardioid’ microphones (other than the pair of ADK TLs which I already owned) just wasn’t happening.  That has more to do with my personal recording choices rather than anything else, which I realize is quite different than the motivation of many others here. I’m not a ‘gotta get it recorded’ archivist. So the ‘problem reducing’ aspect of super/hypercardioids in itself isn’t as important to me as others around here.

So why am I interested in them?  As a way to maximize channel separation in some of my multichannel setups given other constraints. The directionality of a super/hypercardioid helps do that.

Fair warning- feel free to skip my next post if my rambling on about this arcane stuff bores you!
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 09:16:54 PM by Gutbucket »
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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2013, 06:42:46 PM »
Arcane ramble-

I have a pet theory about the problematic sound of more directional patterns - A more natural sounding recording results in part from microphones with better balanced frequency pickup across their off-axis region.  I think few would argue with that.  But I think what is really important on a more basic level isn’t the behavior of each mic in isolation, but rather the collective response of the entire mic array.

I think the contribution of other mics in the array can mask problems, if arranged so that the well-behaved on-axis region (higher in level) covers the less well behaved off-axis (and lower level) region of other mics.  By that I mean that a well balanced frequency response in all directions is what I think is really the most important thing.  In other words, the combined polar patterns can make for desirable level differences which reduce the audibility of undesirable frequency differences.  That can be achieved by using great quality mics with exemplary off-axis behavior like the MK41, or by the strategic arrangement of multiple mics to achieve a similar end result as a group, taken as a whole. Of course it’s a lot easier to use mics with great off-axis behavior to start with, and that’s the only way to do it in 2-channel, since two microphones can not fully cover the misbehaving off-axis polar regions of each other. 

However, since I’m recording 4 sometimes 5 or a couple times 6 directional channels and recently decided after recording and listening that masking effects can go a long way in helping make up for substituting a less 'good' center cardioid for a much better one, I’ve convinced myself that masking had a larger effect than I though it would.  In that example I substituted AT933 cardioids for Gefell M94s as center and back mics, without changing L/R mics, and it was suprisingly not as noticable as I thought it would be played back out of the R44 both hard LR mixed to 2-ch and multi-channel. Not nearly as much of a downgrade as I imagine it would have been if substituting the ATs for the Geffs in straight 2-channel, which I guess is somewhat obvious when mixed to 2-channel, but suprisingly not when played through individual speakers either. It was ear opening, at least that test.. any way I'm thinking I might be in search of 'good enough' light-weight low powered cards and hypers to play around with as a center plus rear facing pair for the 6' spaced LR 4060s in a compact 5 channel surround rig into the DR680.

Although earlier I mentioned using the TLs in hypercardioid mode more often recently, I should clarify that I’ve never used them that way as a 2-channel stereo pair alone*.  I pulled out the TLs again and started using them more frequently because I wanted increased channel separation in multi-channel surround configurations.  When adding a third (center) channel to what was an optimized 2-channel stereo pair, with the idea of playing back the recording across the same stereo soundstage width, no matter if that playback is done way of two or three front speakers, I want to narrow the stereo recording angle between each mic-pair segment to something like half of what it was previously when using only two mics.

To achieve that, I can angle the mics apart more (but Left and Right then point sideways or even backwards,) and/or space them apart more, and/or increase the directivity of the pickup pattern.

I picked up a 3rd ADK TL so I could have three identical mics to make L/C/R groupings- in particular, hypercardioids at reasonable spacings which didn’t require the mics to be pointed in absurd directions to get enough channel separation.  The other ways I’ve found of doing it which also work optimally require me to space Left/Right omnis 6’ apart with a directional mic in the Center.  Using hypercardioids I can space Left/Right a couple feet apart and point them more forward.  Even then, the theoretically optimal configuration would have Left/Right pointing directly to the sides, which I’ve tried with Gunther Thiele’s OCT setup [explanatory links- DPA, Schoeps, Thiele PDF]  (who suggests using MK41s specifically because of their good off-axis response since the Left/Right mics are pointed 90 degress to the sides).  Even with the TLs, which as twin diaphragm LDs I’m sure exhibit off-axis irregularities which Joe pointed out earlier,  I can hear better L/C/R imaging and cross-channel seperation (less L in R and R in L) provided by OCT in a couple recordings I’ve made that way, but it doesn’t address practical issues of the situations I record in.  So I put the mics in a somewhat similar triangle, increased the directivity of the center mic from a cardioid to a hypercardioid and angled the Left/Right mics forwards ~45 degrees as a more practical solution. Maybe that's more like a small-dimension Decca tree using hypercardioids.  The point is that I wouldn't want to put those three mics that close together, or that minimally angled apart, without them being hypercardioids.

----------------------------------------
* Note to 2-channel X/Y aficionados- If I wanted to record a 2-channel X/Y stereo pair (and not specifically X/Y Blumlien, or X/Y as mid/side) I’d almost always choose hypercardioids over cardioids.  An exception would be close mic’ing something I wished to be stereo but completely phase coherent, but then I’d probably still prefer M/S unless decoding it posed a practical problem. 

[edited to fix it]
« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 10:42:21 AM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline OOK

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2013, 07:59:56 PM »
I know this isn't a scientific study or anything, but I'm observing that almost all of the answers are based on what you currently own or what series you currently own.  I suppose that's logical...why would you own something else if you didn't think what you had sounded good/best?  On the other hand, 'favorite' is usually significantly biased by the homer factor so it most definitely can't be translated to an objective statement of which is the best sounding hyper capsule.  I know nobody has really said that, but thought I'd throw it out there.

I agree to some extent, however there are those of us doing this a long time and have had a lot of experience with the sound of diferent hypers discussed.  While I have not owned many of the mics discussed I have heard many example of these mics.  All this leading to the reason why I purchased what I purchased.  Of the hypers mentioned I don't have enough experience with the senn. 8050 and beyer950.  While I have heard only a few recordings with these mics they sound promising to me but I need more example to say for sure.  I know I don't like the mk41 or the ak50 or the ck63.  The only reason I don't own m21 is the buddy I record with a lot has a set and it would be silly to have 2 of the same mics recording the same show. 

I always have to laugh when I see 20 pairs of schoeps at a show.....  For me MBHO has been the absolute best bang for the buck microphone ever made.  Everything after is all a mater of diminishing return.    Do shcoeps sound 1k to 1.5k better than MBHO, for the me the answer is a resounding no, especially since MBHO chief engineer Manfred Schneider work a long time for Dr. Schoep.  I am sure Manfred Schneider didn't create a complete new design. 

Peace OOK
DPA/HEB 4060's > R09HR
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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2013, 10:08:38 PM »
Ook, for the better attended shows, I don't know ahead of time who's showing up with what gear.  If I go through the effort to get a taper ticket or just to get my gear in, i'm not going to just set it on the floor bc someone else is running the same capsules as me.  For one, I get off on my own recording, no matter how many others are there...mines the one I want to hear the next day...maybe not forever but the next day.  lol.  Also, its not all about the capsules.  Preamp, adc and what you decide to do in post makes a difference as well. 

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #40 on: January 22, 2013, 10:37:20 PM »
As long as we're talking fatigue. My old rig: JW's>CK63>V3. That rig took fatigue to a whole new level. :o

You need 41s not 4s ;D

I had a 641 set and 21's. It was so long ago the 641 set was 1850. :o Like everything else I've owned, I sold them. :'(

I going to try to build a MK4>Nick cables>PFA's rig. ;)

That's how much they were back in 1999 when I bought my 480s!!! Wish things were like that again but technology is far greater these days and gear is a lot cheaper, well, not the mics, but everything else is!
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #41 on: January 22, 2013, 10:41:38 PM »
Also, its not all about the capsules.  Preamp, adc and what you decide to do in post makes a difference as well.

And as always, location and dare I mention it after my last post, configuration.
..and I'm with Steve on the next day listen.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #42 on: January 22, 2013, 11:08:47 PM »
And as someone who ran mbho hypers for 4 years, I must say, there are many pairs of schoeps at some shows for a reason, it's because the simply sound the best. You def get what you pay for!!!
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

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http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #43 on: January 22, 2013, 11:54:48 PM »
And as someone who ran mbho hypers for 4 years, I must say, there are many pairs of schoeps at some shows for a reason, it's because the simply sound the best. You def get what you pay for!!!

Disagree.
Mics: 3 Zigma Chi HA-FX (COL-251, c, h, o-d, o-f) / Avenson STO-2 / Countryman B3s
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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2013, 12:04:21 AM »
And as someone who ran mbho hypers for 4 years, I must say, there are many pairs of schoeps at some shows for a reason, it's because the simply sound the best. You def get what you pay for!!!

Disagree.


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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #45 on: January 23, 2013, 12:52:49 AM »
Schoeps are topshelf, but so are some others here. This is like Blantons vs Noah's Mill or Bookers. They are all top shelf bourbons, some are favored more than others, but it's different for each person (I prefer Noah's Mill, my better half; Blantons or Bookers).

I think that analogy holds true. The Gefells and Schoeps and a couple others are top shelf, but they should different based on what you value. Some people have a darker playback, some like more bass or that schoeps coloration. Others don't. I posted this poll after realizing that I was lagging behind on my poll quota and hadn't started a good circular debate here in a while.
"This is a common practice we have on the bus; debating facts that we could easily find through printed material. It's like, how far is it today? I think it's four hours, and someone else comes in at 11 hours, and well, then we'll... just... talk about it..." - Jeb Puryear

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #46 on: January 23, 2013, 07:47:46 AM »
Rather than just being petulant about the "Schoeps are always best" comment, I'll weigh in. I'll second the ADK A51-TLs, they never disappoint. For SD hypers, I sold my 460s and caps because I've been so happy with my 3 Zigma Chi mics. I've run the hypers a few times, and I've been very happy with them. The low end is fatter and richer than most hypers, and the mild 10k bump makes them lively without hype. I will always prefer cards though, I only pull the hypers out for difficult narrow rooms where I'm worried about reflections and echoes.
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Offline John Willett

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #47 on: January 23, 2013, 08:11:31 AM »
I know this isn't a scientific study or anything, but I'm observing that almost all of the answers are based on what you currently own or what series you currently own.  I suppose that's logical...why would you own something else if you didn't think what you had sounded good/best?  On the other hand, 'favorite' is usually significantly biased by the homer factor so it most definitely can't be translated to an objective statement of which is the best sounding hyper capsule.  I know nobody has really said that, but thought I'd throw it out there.

True - but "best sounding" does always come down yo what *you* want for the particular project you are working on at the time.

"Best sounding" for a different project may be totally different.

Which is why a pro will have many mics from several different manufacturers in the kit.

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #48 on: January 23, 2013, 10:26:53 AM »
I know this isn't a scientific study or anything, but I'm observing that almost all of the answers are based on what you currently own or what series you currently own.  I suppose that's logical...why would you own something else if you didn't think what you had sounded good/best?  On the other hand, 'favorite' is usually significantly biased by the homer factor so it most definitely can't be translated to an objective statement of which is the best sounding hyper capsule.  I know nobody has really said that, but thought I'd throw it out there.

Good point. There is a homer factor in almost every post like this.

I can at least say I've owned/own or have good familiarity with most of the list other than ck63s.  My 41s are better than my KA500s from what I've heard so far.  Of the others, if I liked 'em, I'd own them/still own them.  I have not owned the AT4053s, but I think they are really nice.  Despite not having a fancy German name on them, they are outstanding mics and punch far above their weight in terms of their cost.
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #49 on: January 23, 2013, 10:49:39 AM »
AT U853 hypers didn't make the list?  :P
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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #50 on: January 23, 2013, 11:33:56 AM »
AT U853 hypers didn't make the list?  :P

They are on my mental list of small, low-voltage-powered hypers to consider for use as a rear facing surround pair.  I've never used them or any of the 853 caps. Time to do some archive listening I guess.  What other small, low-voltage-powered hypers should I consider? I obviously don't expect them to perform as well as the better and more costly hypers discussed here so far, but that isn't as necessary for this application.  Maybe I should start a different thread for this, although it is an extension of the what is your 'favorite hypercardioid' question, just exploring the small 'optimal bang for the buck' category.  Needs to be small but doesn't have to be low-voltage actually, anything Niant PFA powerable might work.
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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #51 on: January 23, 2013, 11:57:52 AM »
And as someone who ran mbho hypers for 4 years, I must say, there are many pairs of schoeps at some shows for a reason, it's because the simply sound the best. You def get what you pay for!!!

Disagree.


x2

x3  but we all know Bean is a big Schoeps cheerleader waving his pom poms, so you take it for what it's worth.  :P  ;)  :-*  ;D
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Offline Sunday Driver

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #52 on: January 23, 2013, 12:21:41 PM »
AT U853 hypers didn't make the list?  :P

They are on my mental list of small, low-voltage-powered hypers to consider for use as a rear facing surround pair.  I've never used them or any of the 853 caps. Time to do some archive listening I guess.  What other small, low-voltage-powered hypers should I consider? I obviously don't expect them to perform as well as the better and more costly hypers discussed here so far, but that isn't as necessary for this application.  Maybe I should start a different thread for this, although it is an extension of the what is your 'favorite hypercardioid' question, just exploring the small 'optimal bang for the buck' category.  Needs to be small but doesn't have to be low-voltage actually, anything Niant PFA powerable might work.

I had AT U853 hyper caps, and recently sold them. These days if I'm not in a spot where cards will suffice, then I don't want to be taping at all. At their price point though, I don't think there is anything better. They do lack low end, but I had a few good pulls with them.

To answer your question, you could probably also consider the Audix Micro-D series hypers. You don't see them discussed here all that often, but personally I don't think that means anything.
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Offline Todd R

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #53 on: January 23, 2013, 01:51:09 PM »
I know this isn't a scientific study or anything, but I'm observing that almost all of the answers are based on what you currently own or what series you currently own.  I suppose that's logical...why would you own something else if you didn't think what you had sounded good/best?  On the other hand, 'favorite' is usually significantly biased by the homer factor so it most definitely can't be translated to an objective statement of which is the best sounding hyper capsule.  I know nobody has really said that, but thought I'd throw it out there.

Good point. There is a homer factor in almost every post like this.

I can at least say I've owned/own or have good familiarity with most of the list other than ck63s.  My 41s are better than my KA500s from what I've heard so far.  Of the others, if I liked 'em, I'd own them/still own them.  I have not owned the AT4053s, but I think they are really nice.  Despite not having a fancy German name on them, they are outstanding mics and punch far above their weight in terms of their cost.

I've wondered about the AT4053's many times, but haven't really heard them.  I owned and liked the AT4041 cards.  They sounded great, particularly for their cost, and are a step down from the AT4051 and AT4053.

And I still have no idea what the homer factor refers to.  ???
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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #54 on: January 23, 2013, 01:54:44 PM »
What other small, low-voltage-powered hypers should I consider? I obviously don't expect them to perform as well as the better and more costly hypers discussed here so far, but that isn't as necessary for this application.  Maybe I should start a different thread for this, although it is an extension of the what is your 'favorite hypercardioid' question, just exploring the small 'optimal bang for the buck' category.  Needs to be small but doesn't have to be low-voltage actually, anything Niant PFA powerable might work.

Really a hybrid, but I'd guess the Audix cpc-micro hypercard capsules (capsules for the m1290, m1280, m1255 series) attached to a Church active cable (made for his CA11 mics) would sound quite nice.  I use the hyper caps on the m1290 mics a lot, and think it is a very nice hyper capsule.  I have those Church active cables, but haven't used them much.  Chuck though has run the Audix omni caps on the Church cable a number of times, and he seems quite impressed with the performance of that combo.
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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #55 on: January 23, 2013, 04:05:05 PM »
And I still have no idea what the homer factor refers to.  ???

Todd...certainly there are plenty of people on TS.com (you said earlier that you're one of them) that have tried and/or sampled a ton of gear and have come to objective conclusions about what they like the best.  As I said in my earlier comment, it's only logical that someone would own what they've determined to be their favorite after they've sampled far and wide.  In your case, you've objectively evaluated and come to the conclusion about your favorite...and that's what you've owned.

That said, I also think there's a percentage of people that respond based mostly on the bias they have for whatever they happen own at that moment...without really giving objective consideration to whatever else is out there.  I've called that bias the homer factor.  I'm not sure if it's caused by placebo effect, self-fulfilling prophesy, or what. 

 
« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 04:09:40 PM by tonedeaf »

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #56 on: January 23, 2013, 05:16:58 PM »
And as someone who ran mbho hypers for 4 years, I must say, there are many pairs of schoeps at some shows for a reason, it's because the simply sound the best. You def get what you pay for!!!

Disagree.


x2

x3 (with no disrespect to Bean or anyone who loves their Schoeps more than the others)
« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 05:20:20 PM by bass_ur_face »

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #57 on: January 23, 2013, 05:59:52 PM »
The arrival of my hyper caps is supposedly imminent . . . I think those will win the price/performance ratio.  Well at least they will win price :D  Specs are pretty similar to Audix.

Interested.

Quote
As an aside, far-field bass response is always going to be limited as you move towards bidirectional; that's the nature of the beast:  pressure-gradient means that same pressure on both sides = no signal.  Which I think is the point of using a hyper in concert recording; where there is off-axis stuff you don't want there is probably bass you don't want too.

Yes, probably most of the time for most users.  Not really in my case since I'd actually prefer a fully extened bass response for better surround envelopment, which is one reason I've used omnis for this in the past. But that's considerably less important to me at this point than good rejection of sound arriving from the front, so as long as they have decent, non-offensive sound in general, I'm not too worried about limited far-field bass response.  That was more of a concern until I tried some cardioids with relatively weak bass response back there which worked fine. The directionality turned out to be more important than an extended low frequency response, as long as the spaced Left/Right omnis were there providing good low frequency response and envelopment.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #58 on: January 23, 2013, 06:02:06 PM »
Thanks Todd & Sunday Driver for your suggestions.  I'll look into those too.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Todd R

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #59 on: January 23, 2013, 09:32:28 PM »
And I still have no idea what the homer factor refers to.  ???

Todd...certainly there are plenty of people on TS.com (you said earlier that you're one of them) that have tried and/or sampled a ton of gear and have come to objective conclusions about what they like the best.  As I said in my earlier comment, it's only logical that someone would own what they've determined to be their favorite after they've sampled far and wide.  In your case, you've objectively evaluated and come to the conclusion about your favorite...and that's what you've owned.

That said, I also think there's a percentage of people that respond based mostly on the bias they have for whatever they happen own at that moment...without really giving objective consideration to whatever else is out there.  I've called that bias the homer factor.  I'm not sure if it's caused by placebo effect, self-fulfilling prophesy, or what.

Not arguing the potential for bias about one's gear isn't creeping in here, I just haven't heard the reference before. Or it doesn't resonate with me or something. Are we talking about the author of the Iliad, or the husband of Marge Simpson, or some other homer?    ;)  :facepalm:
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #60 on: January 23, 2013, 10:03:41 PM »
I recently sent one of my AKG CK-63 capsules in for repair and had to use CK-61 cardioids instead in this local venue that looks and sounds like a barn. I've come to rely on the hyper-cardioids in that venue and another in town. There's no EQing that takes out that barn sound better than using more directional mics in those venues. So, for me they are problem solvers.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 10:19:52 PM by Chuck »
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Microphones: AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements,  Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #61 on: January 23, 2013, 10:05:06 PM »
It's meant as slang.  As in home boy...home team-er...homie...home-er...

Not Homer like Homer Simpson or Homer the first baseball card dude.

Maybe not the most proper use of the slang term, but seems appropo in the context applied.

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #62 on: January 26, 2013, 10:16:29 PM »
i'll say this... i love my 8050s, but in ideal conditions i'd much rather use the 8040s.  so much more bass with the 8040s.  me like bass mucho!!!

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #63 on: January 27, 2013, 01:31:25 AM »
There's no EQing that takes out that barn sound better than using more directional mics in those venues. So, for me they are problem solvers.

This.

It's a mic capsule that you buy for it's polar pattern which you need in a certain environment more.
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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #64 on: January 27, 2013, 01:55:32 PM »
I'm happy with my AT 4053 hypers.

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #65 on: January 27, 2013, 02:26:22 PM »
I'd like to retract and suggest that the best hyper is the one that you create with the schoeps mk2, mk8 and the polarflex plugin: http://www.schoeps.de/en/products/categories/polarflex
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, GAKables 10' & 20' 6-channel snakes, Darktrain 2 & 4 channel KCY and mini xlr extensions:
Preamps:    Schoeps VMS 02iub, Naiant IPA, Sound Devices Mixpre6 I
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6 I, Sony PCM m10

Home Playback: Mac Mini> Mytek Brooklyn+> McIntosh MC162> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-4XX / Beyerdynamic DT880

Office Playback: iMac> Grace m903> AKG k701 / Hifiman HE-400

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #66 on: January 27, 2013, 02:33:31 PM »
I'd like to retract and suggest that the best hyper is the one that you create with the schoeps mk2, mk8 and the polarflex plugin: http://www.schoeps.de/en/products/categories/polarflex

Price aside, that personally seems like too much work in post but, like the soundfield, looks like a really cool idea.

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #67 on: January 28, 2013, 06:48:18 AM »
And as someone who ran mbho hypers for 4 years, I must say, there are many pairs of schoeps at some shows for a reason, it's because the simply sound the best. You def get what you pay for!!!
Very much disagree. I have not had the opportunity to play with that many pairs of mics, but I did sell audio equipment for about 15 years. I was considered to have a very good ear and there is something that grates against me with schoeps. They are mostly used out of reputation from what I have observed.
Sony C38B's --> Lunatec V2-->PMD661
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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #68 on: January 28, 2013, 06:56:55 AM »
And as someone who ran mbho hypers for 4 years, I must say, there are many pairs of schoeps at some shows for a reason, it's because the simply sound the best. You def get what you pay for!!!
Very much disagree. I have not had the opportunity to play with that many pairs of mics, but I did sell audio equipment for about 15 years. I was considered to have a very good ear and there is something that grates against me with schoeps. They are mostly used out of reputation from what I have observed.

I'm fully aware that reasonable people can disagree, that opinions are like assholes, and that personal taste matters a great deal when comparing well-made transducers.

However, your "very good ear" notwithstanding, there is a good reason why many of the best professionals working in everything from classical symphonies to film dialog use schoeps gear. Reputations are earned. Many, many people tape with Schoeps because of their flat frequency response (both on and off-axis) and uniform patterns.

I'm happy that you like what you like, but I just can't believe that you know (or can hear) something that noone else does.
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, GAKables 10' & 20' 6-channel snakes, Darktrain 2 & 4 channel KCY and mini xlr extensions:
Preamps:    Schoeps VMS 02iub, Naiant IPA, Sound Devices Mixpre6 I
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6 I, Sony PCM m10

Home Playback: Mac Mini> Mytek Brooklyn+> McIntosh MC162> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-4XX / Beyerdynamic DT880

Office Playback: iMac> Grace m903> AKG k701 / Hifiman HE-400

Offline DiggerinVA

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #69 on: January 28, 2013, 07:20:07 AM »
And as someone who ran mbho hypers for 4 years, I must say, there are many pairs of schoeps at some shows for a reason, it's because the simply sound the best. You def get what you pay for!!!
Very much disagree. I have not had the opportunity to play with that many pairs of mics, but I did sell audio equipment for about 15 years. I was considered to have a very good ear and there is something that grates against me with schoeps. They are mostly used out of reputation from what I have observed.


I'm fully aware that reasonable people can disagree, that opinions are like assholes, and that personal taste matters a great deal when comparing well-made transducers.

However, your "very good ear" notwithstanding, there is a good reason why many of the best professionals working in everything from classical symphonies to film dialog use schoeps gear. Reputations are earned. Many, many people tape with Schoeps because of their flat frequency response (both on and off-axis) and uniform patterns.

I'm happy that you like what you like, but I just can't believe that you know (or can hear) something that noone else does.

A microphone is a transducer as is a speaker. Both are greatly affected by the room they are in. It has been shown in many cases where a flat response is not pleasing to most ears. This is not my opinion, but that held by many of the speaker designer's. Measured responses are just not as important in the transducer business as it is in the amplifier business and there is where listening is real fun, it can really toss specs out the window.
Sony C38B's --> Lunatec V2-->PMD661
B-3's --> Tinybox 1.5 --> PCM-M10

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #70 on: January 28, 2013, 07:50:08 AM »
And as someone who ran mbho hypers for 4 years, I must say, there are many pairs of schoeps at some shows for a reason, it's because the simply sound the best. You def get what you pay for!!!
Very much disagree. I have not had the opportunity to play with that many pairs of mics, but I did sell audio equipment for about 15 years. I was considered to have a very good ear and there is something that grates against me with schoeps. They are mostly used out of reputation from what I have observed.


I'm fully aware that reasonable people can disagree, that opinions are like assholes, and that personal taste matters a great deal when comparing well-made transducers.

However, your "very good ear" notwithstanding, there is a good reason why many of the best professionals working in everything from classical symphonies to film dialog use schoeps gear. Reputations are earned. Many, many people tape with Schoeps because of their flat frequency response (both on and off-axis) and uniform patterns.

I'm happy that you like what you like, but I just can't believe that you know (or can hear) something that noone else does.

A microphone is a transducer as is a speaker. Both are greatly affected by the room they are in. It has been shown in many cases where a flat response is not pleasing to most ears. This is not my opinion, but that held by many of the speaker designer's. Measured responses are just not as important in the transducer business as it is in the amplifier business and there is where listening is real fun, it can really toss specs out the window.

If you are trying to capture everything with a simple stereo pair, isn't it best to start flat and apply eq in post where you have infinite options?

You are now trying to tell me is that your "very good ears" find accuracy "grating?" Why should I trust your individual preferences over the industry standard again?
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, GAKables 10' & 20' 6-channel snakes, Darktrain 2 & 4 channel KCY and mini xlr extensions:
Preamps:    Schoeps VMS 02iub, Naiant IPA, Sound Devices Mixpre6 I
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6 I, Sony PCM m10

Home Playback: Mac Mini> Mytek Brooklyn+> McIntosh MC162> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-4XX / Beyerdynamic DT880

Office Playback: iMac> Grace m903> AKG k701 / Hifiman HE-400

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #71 on: January 28, 2013, 08:18:14 AM »
And as someone who ran mbho hypers for 4 years, I must say, there are many pairs of schoeps at some shows for a reason, it's because the simply sound the best. You def get what you pay for!!!
Very much disagree. I have not had the opportunity to play with that many pairs of mics, but I did sell audio equipment for about 15 years. I was considered to have a very good ear and there is something that grates against me with schoeps. They are mostly used out of reputation from what I have observed.


I'm fully aware that reasonable people can disagree, that opinions are like assholes, and that personal taste matters a great deal when comparing well-made transducers.

However, your "very good ear" notwithstanding, there is a good reason why many of the best professionals working in everything from classical symphonies to film dialog use schoeps gear. Reputations are earned. Many, many people tape with Schoeps because of their flat frequency response (both on and off-axis) and uniform patterns.

I'm happy that you like what you like, but I just can't believe that you know (or can hear) something that noone else does.

A microphone is a transducer as is a speaker. Both are greatly affected by the room they are in. It has been shown in many cases where a flat response is not pleasing to most ears. This is not my opinion, but that held by many of the speaker designer's. Measured responses are just not as important in the transducer business as it is in the amplifier business and there is where listening is real fun, it can really toss specs out the window.

If you are trying to capture everything with a simple stereo pair, isn't it best to start flat and apply eq in post where you have infinite options?

You are now trying to tell me is that your "very good ears" find accuracy "grating?" Why should I trust your individual preferences over the industry standard again?

The 1st statement sounds logical. Except that it is far more complicated than that. 2nd part you will have a playback system which will have flaws too and this is what you will apply eq with? So what happens to the original?

Now as I said I was considered to have very good ears, this was placed on me by others. And I never have liked the schoeps, sorry. I am not alone. Oh why do engineers not use schoeps for vocals in the studio's? Remember 80% of the music we listen to is in the mid range.

Another question for you where is accuracy determined? The answer is a anechoic chamber. Do you record or listen in one? So in the real world when you start adding reflections back in what happens. Now this thread is about hyper cardioid mics, which is why I have an interest, I don't have a pair and would like a pair. Their main purpose is to reduce of axis sounds, so by their very nature they are not accurate. So I am looking for something that sounds good (yes a very subjective term) that is why I am here.
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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #72 on: January 28, 2013, 09:27:44 AM »
And as someone who ran mbho hypers for 4 years, I must say, there are many pairs of schoeps at some shows for a reason, it's because the simply sound the best. You def get what you pay for!!!
Very much disagree. I have not had the opportunity to play with that many pairs of mics, but I did sell audio equipment for about 15 years. I was considered to have a very good ear and there is something that grates against me with schoeps. They are mostly used out of reputation from what I have observed.


I'm fully aware that reasonable people can disagree, that opinions are like assholes, and that personal taste matters a great deal when comparing well-made transducers.

However, your "very good ear" notwithstanding, there is a good reason why many of the best professionals working in everything from classical symphonies to film dialog use schoeps gear. Reputations are earned. Many, many people tape with Schoeps because of their flat frequency response (both on and off-axis) and uniform patterns.

I'm happy that you like what you like, but I just can't believe that you know (or can hear) something that noone else does.

A microphone is a transducer as is a speaker. Both are greatly affected by the room they are in. It has been shown in many cases where a flat response is not pleasing to most ears. This is not my opinion, but that held by many of the speaker designer's. Measured responses are just not as important in the transducer business as it is in the amplifier business and there is where listening is real fun, it can really toss specs out the window.

If you are trying to capture everything with a simple stereo pair, isn't it best to start flat and apply eq in post where you have infinite options?

You are now trying to tell me is that your "very good ears" find accuracy "grating?" Why should I trust your individual preferences over the industry standard again?

The 1st statement sounds logical. Except that it is far more complicated than that. 2nd part you will have a playback system which will have flaws too and this is what you will apply eq with? So what happens to the original?

Now as I said I was considered to have very good ears, this was placed on me by others. And I never have liked the schoeps, sorry. I am not alone. Oh why do engineers not use schoeps for vocals in the studio's? Remember 80% of the music we listen to is in the mid range.

Another question for you where is accuracy determined? The answer is a anechoic chamber. Do you record or listen in one? So in the real world when you start adding reflections back in what happens. Now this thread is about hyper cardioid mics, which is why I have an interest, I don't have a pair and would like a pair. Their main purpose is to reduce of axis sounds, so by their very nature they are not accurate. So I am looking for something that sounds good (yes a very subjective term) that is why I am here.

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #73 on: January 28, 2013, 10:03:46 AM »
I want to know who voted for the milabs. what samples have they heard that I haven't? (I haven't heard any....)

still waiting...
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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #74 on: January 28, 2013, 10:06:21 AM »
1. I frequently listen to music in an anechoic chamber; e.g. headphones. Due to living in an apartment I share with little children, and a career as an academic in which I spend a good deal of my life in libraries. In fact, a big part of my choice to build a schoeps m/s rig was because of the ability to create dedicated headphone mixes. Also, most engineers use multiple playback rigs to judge how eq affects the sound.

2. There is a good reason that you don't see any LD hypers on the poll which is the impetus for this thread. Most tapers (and recording engineers) think that SD hypers work better for what we do.

3. Plenty of classical singers (male and female) are spot mic'ed with schoeps capsules in live and studio recordings. Can you guess why? Also The mk41 is universally acclaimed by those who record film dialog. Name your favorite movie, I bet Schoeps microphones were used. Can you guess why?

My point is this: it is all well and good for you to claim that you don't like way schoeps sound, Good for you! Don't buy them. Know that many, many people disagree (look at the poll results above!) Good for them! This is all subjective.

But to suggest that whereas *you* are using your superior ears to determine things, whereas all the rest of us (by implication with inferior hearing or discerning ability) are somehow seduced by a popularity contest to like Schoeps, well that is offensive to many folks on this board who have run all kinds of gear before settling on what they like best.
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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #75 on: January 28, 2013, 10:28:49 AM »
I look at things purely from price. My ears like Schoeps but my wallet doesn't. I owned a 641 set and Mk21's for about 2 years. Really liked them but based on the amount of taping I do and the fact that those mics only got used on this hobby I could no longer justify the cost. If the mics made me some money I would have kept them.

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #76 on: January 28, 2013, 10:38:11 AM »
There's no EQing that takes out that barn sound better than using more directional mics in those venues. So, for me they are problem solvers.
It's a mic capsule that you buy for it's polar pattern which you need in a certain environment more.
I'd like to retract and suggest that the best hyper is the one that you create with the schoeps mk2, mk8 and the polarflex plugin: http://www.schoeps.de/en/products/categories/polarflex
Price aside, that personally seems like too much work in post but, like the soundfield, looks like a really cool idea.

FWIW, with any and all first order patterns (omni through figure-8) available using a fully variable ambisonic mic, the pattern I usually end up with on recordings made with the Tetramic is crossed hypercardioids.  It has the sweetness of Blumlein crossed 8s but with more forward focus and slightly less rear room ambience. That choice has nothing to do with problematic environments and everything to do with simply finding the best sounding coincident microphone pair arrangement, made while trying various combinations of pattern and angle listening back in a good playback environment. 

The primary constraint in that case is the restriction to a coincident pair arrangement with no space between microphones.  Accommodating poor acoustics, audience noise or other problems is obviously critically important to a good recording, yet is secondary to that basic configuration issue, and in the examples I’m thinking of, were not problems which needed addressing by choosing the directionally of the hypercardioid pattern over what would be a more preferably pattern if those problem didn’t exist.

Ignoring subjective preferences for sound, technically the Tetramic may have the most accurate polar pattern of any hypercardioid, including other ambisonic mics and ambisonic-like native arrays (polarflex, etc) due to the fact that the capsules are physically closer together and individually measured and compensated for individually and as a group for accurate response in all directions.

It does make for more work afterwards in dialing that in and decoding the virtual pair output though!
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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #77 on: January 28, 2013, 10:50:33 AM »
In think schoeps are just about perfect in classical settings. They are clear enough with just a touch of euphoric noise to give stuff a pizzazz without it becoming overbearing, and especially well suited since (tonally) you don't want to cheap out on bass response in that setting. For taping rock music in a bar though, I'm rather McKayla on them in terms of both response and coloration. It's a right tool for the right job to me, but certainly personal preference is involved.

Wasn't it DSatz or someone else over on GS that was mildly puzzled why so many far-field tapers use schoeps when there were "better alternatives" for the task? It's a personal preference, but every now and then comments like that make me wonder if a sort of group think doesn't play a role in the decision making process for some. We are but human after all...
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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #78 on: January 28, 2013, 10:52:03 AM »
My point is this: it is all well and good for you to claim that you don't like way schoeps sound, Good for you! Don't buy them. Know that many, many people disagree (look at the poll results above!) Good for them! This is all subjective.

But to suggest that whereas *you* are using your superior ears to determine things, whereas all the rest of us (by implication with inferior hearing or discerning ability) are somehow seduced by a popularity contest to like Schoeps, well that is offensive to many folks on this board who have run all kinds of gear before settling on what they like best.

Lots of good points in this post.  I'd add only that all of the industry standards you cited are pretty much not the situation most people here record in (recording PA systems at a distance).  I agree that it stretches the limits of credulity for someone to claim Schoeps are other than an industry standard and among the very finest microphones in the world.  However, I think someone can make an argument that they like something else better for recording boomy PA systems.  After all, that is not what Schoeps are designed for, and they are very accurate mics.  Someone who hates EQing things may prefer a more hyped mic that does that work for them.  It doesn't make that mic "better", but maybe they prefer it.  EDIT TO ADD: I see page just made a similar point.

I think about this in the context of DPAs. I really love the sound of DPAs when they're at their best, but having run them I would concur that they are among the least forgiving of all mics. They are very accurate - almost too accurate for taping.  If I did what page does with his DPAs - a lot of onstage jazz and similar stuff - I'd probably own DPAs like he does.  Unfortunately, that's not what I do as often as I'd like.  So while I think DPAs are an industry-standard, and one of the finest brands of mics, I prefer something else (in my case, the somewhat hyped Schoeps MK5).

All that said, I went with Schoeps as my own choice after listening to (and in many cases using) just about everything else.  I was biased against Schoeps because of all the nonsense about how Schoeps guys just like to talk shit about their big money mics.  I thought that until I compared my recordings with other very good mics side by side with Schoeps.  For what I do, I think they are the best.  If I didn't think so, I could (and would) own one of the other brands. 
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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #79 on: January 28, 2013, 11:53:13 AM »
as the vast majority of us are using our mics in ways that were not intended i find it interesting that the debate/discussion is so heated.  i think the biggest variable that impacts the quality of concert recordings made from the audience is location.  Schoeps, DPA, Sennheiser, AKG, etc. are all great mics.  Put me in the sweet spot of a venue with any of those mics and i'll make a great recording.  to posit over which mic is "best" (regardless of polar pattern) is a fun discussion, but that's about the extent of it.       

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #80 on: January 28, 2013, 12:29:24 PM »

Wasn't it DSatz or someone else over on GS that was mildly puzzled why so many far-field tapers use schoeps when there were "better alternatives" for the task?

I guess it's an aside to this thread, but do you happen to remember what those better alternatives were?  Just kind of curious.  Was it better alternatives in terms of capsule patterns or arrangement (XY, DIN, etc), or was it better alternatives in terms of actual brands and models of mics?
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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #81 on: January 28, 2013, 01:52:46 PM »

Wasn't it DSatz or someone else over on GS that was mildly puzzled why so many far-field tapers use schoeps when there were "better alternatives" for the task?

I guess it's an aside to this thread, but do you happen to remember what those better alternatives were?  Just kind of curious.  Was it better alternatives in terms of capsule patterns or arrangement (XY, DIN, etc), or was it better alternatives in terms of actual brands and models of mics?

i have a vague recollection of DSatz' comments on this topic.  i think he was essentially saying that since most of us don't use the mics in the manner they were intended then Schoeps may not be best tool for the job.  i don't think he was making a general comment about the quality of Schoeps mics in relation to the competition.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 01:54:23 PM by bass_ur_face »

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #82 on: January 28, 2013, 02:02:30 PM »

Wasn't it DSatz or someone else over on GS that was mildly puzzled why so many far-field tapers use schoeps when there were "better alternatives" for the task?

I guess it's an aside to this thread, but do you happen to remember what those better alternatives were?  Just kind of curious.  Was it better alternatives in terms of capsule patterns or arrangement (XY, DIN, etc), or was it better alternatives in terms of actual brands and models of mics?

i have a vague recollection of DSatz' comments on this topic.  i think he was essentially saying that since most of us don't use the mics in the manner they were intended then Schoeps may not be best tool for the job.  i don't think he was making a general comment about the quality of Schoeps mics in relation to the competition.

Certainly, if someone wants a microphone that cuts out a lot of bass, Schoeps, DPA, and Sennheiser are not your way to go.  I'd look to mics like the MBHO KA200 cardiods, Neumann KM 150s and other mics with a very rolled-off bass response.  I don't know if that's what he was talking about, but it's certainly true.
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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #83 on: January 28, 2013, 05:50:03 PM »
i'm sure DSatz will chime in at some point, but i don't think his comments were geared towards the sonic character of the mics (more or less bass, more or less high end, etc.).  i think he was basically trying to say that if you are going to record a concert at a significant distance from the source (which is not the intended purpose of most of the mics we tend to use) then there might be better solutions to consider for that specific use.  i could be wrong, but that's how i interpreted the comment.

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #84 on: January 28, 2013, 09:09:37 PM »
i'm sure DSatz will chime in at some point, but i don't think his comments were geared towards the sonic character of the mics (more or less bass, more or less high end, etc.).  i think he was basically trying to say that if you are going to record a concert at a significant distance from the source (which is not the intended purpose of most of the mics we tend to use) then there might be better solutions to consider for that specific use.  i could be wrong, but that's how i interpreted the comment.

yeah, I've traversed a lot of the internet in my life and honestly don't recall if it was his comments or someone on GS (who are admittedly focused on professional releases and that whole mentality) so my apologies if I'm misattributing it to him. But yeah, that's akin to the argument; right tool for the goal. If you're interested in creating a clear and clutter free recording, then open patterns, bass heavy mics (unless you're into that sort of thing), and standard television/radio recording configs while standing in a cavernous room full of dingbats isn't helping. I get that, and a lot of it is the nature of the beast, but some of it can be improved on.
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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #85 on: January 28, 2013, 10:28:25 PM »
Uh, hi--I'm here. I don't recall posting any such remark on GearSlutz, where I only visit about once a year, and I don't identify at all with the quote. It sounds a little more like something I might say about using shotgun microphones for stereo music recording--could that be it?

Here's my two cents on this topic. I think most people would be amazed to learn just how much reflected sound there is in any normal, clear-sounding recording, and how much sound in general reaches our microphones from angles that are quite far off axis. I'm convinced that a microphone's off-axis response is every bit as important as its on-axis response. To hear what I mean, if you ever get a chance to spend a minute or two in an anechoic chamber, by all means please try it. It is so totally different from anyplace where we normally hear music--and the experience underscores the huge degree to which reflected sound is necessary for recorded music to feel as if it's happening in our normal, living world and not in some abstracted laboratory space somewhere.

So I think that the off-axis response of a microphone really needs to be smooth and as neutral as possible, and particularly as free as possible of high-frequency and upper-midrange response peaks. This leads me to prefer small, high-quality, single-diaphragm condenser microphones. Condenser microphones have something of a reputation for sounding "bright," but I'm not talking about condensers that are artificially bright; there are certainly plenty of those, but there's nothing inherent in a capacitive transducer that means it has to be that way, and I avoid the ones that are.

I use Schoeps microphones more than any others, mainly because I find their midrange and upper midrange unhyped and natural sounding. Where super-to-hypercardioids are concerned, the Schoeps also has very good low-frequency response, and doesn't sound muffled or pinched when sound reaches it from off-axis.

The Neumann KM 150 or KM 185 is an alternative that I know well. I own a pair of KM 150s and I find definite uses for them, but rarely as the main stereo pair for music recording. In addition to their distinctly light low-frequency response (which I appreciate when I'm using them as spot mikes and in speech applications), they have a certain character in their upper midrange which, to my ears, makes them either exactly the right thing to use, or else very much the wrong thing.

Sometimes a company's reputation for having a certain "sound" isn't a pure blessing when they want to maintain their brand's identity--it can mean that they have to impose a certain sound quality on everything they make in order for it to seem like it's theirs. Personally, I find such imposed sound quality tiring to hear at any length.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 12:20:28 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #86 on: January 29, 2013, 06:02:11 AM »
And as someone who ran mbho hypers for 4 years, I must say, there are many pairs of schoeps at some shows for a reason, it's because the simply sound the best. You def get what you pay for!!!
Very much disagree. I have not had the opportunity to play with that many pairs of mics, but I did sell audio equipment for about 15 years. I was considered to have a very good ear and there is something that grates against me with schoeps. They are mostly used out of reputation from what I have observed.

I'm fully aware that reasonable people can disagree, that opinions are like assholes, and that personal taste matters a great deal when comparing well-made transducers.

However, your "very good ear" notwithstanding, there is a good reason why many of the best professionals working in everything from classical symphonies to film dialog use schoeps gear. Reputations are earned. Many, many people tape with Schoeps because of their flat frequency response (both on and off-axis) and uniform patterns.

I'm happy that you like what you like, but I just can't believe that you know (or can hear) something that noone else does.

Why do you think "no one else does"?

I have always listed the "best" (alphabetically) as: DPA, Gefell, Neumann, Schoeps and Sennheiser.

I would say these are all pretty equal and that none is really much better than the others.

BUT - the designers all have different ideas and come from different directions and they all sound different.  Not "better" or "worse", just different.

Some will do things better than others in a situation and it may be the other way round in a different situation.

That's why professionals will have a mix of several of the above brands and will choose the best one for the situation they find themselves in at the time.

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #87 on: January 29, 2013, 11:30:08 AM »
Uh, hi--I'm here. I don't recall posting any such remark on GearSlutz, where I only visit about once a year, and I don't identify at all with the quote. It sounds a little more like something I might say about using shotgun microphones for stereo music recording--could that be it?
Here's my two cents on this topic. I think most people would be amazed to learn just how much reflected sound there is in any normal, clear-sounding recording, and how much sound in general reaches our microphones from angles that are quite far off axis. I'm convinced that a microphone's off-axis response is every bit as important as its on-axis response. To hear what I mean, if you ever get a chance to spend a minute or two in an anechoic chamber, by all means please try it. It is so totally different from anyplace where we normally hear music--and the experience underscores the huge degree to which reflected sound is necessary for recorded music to feel as if it's happening in our normal, living world and not in some abstracted laboratory space somewhere.

So I think that the off-axis response of a microphone really needs to be smooth and as neutral as possible, and particularly as free as possible of high-frequency and upper-midrange response peaks. This leads me to prefer small, high-quality, single-diaphragm condenser microphones. Condenser microphones have something of a reputation for sounding "bright," but I'm not talking about condensers that are artificially bright; there are certainly plenty of those, but there's nothing inherent in a capacitive transducer that means it has to be that way, and I avoid the ones that are.

I use Schoeps microphones more than any others, mainly because I find their midrange and upper midrange unhyped and natural sounding. Where super-to-hypercardioids are concerned, the Schoeps also has very good low-frequency response, and doesn't sound muffled or pinched when sound reaches it from off-axis. You could even say that the narrower a microphone's pattern is, the more its off-axis response matters--certainly for two-microphone stereo music recording.

The Neumann KM 150 or KM 185 is an alternative that I know well. I own a pair of KM 150s and I find definite uses for them, but rarely as the main stereo pair for music recording. In addition to their distinctly light low-frequency response (which I appreciate when I'm using them as spot mikes and in speech applications), they have a certain character in their upper midrange which, to my ears, makes them either exactly the right thing to use, or else very much the wrong thing.

Of course if every manufacturer made microphones with perfectly neutral sonic characteristics, then no one manufacturer could claim to offer a unique sound quality. Sometimes a company's reputation for having a certain "sound" isn't a pure blessing when they want to maintain their brand's identity--it can mean that they have to impose a certain sound quality on everything they make in order for it to seem like it's theirs. Personally, I find such imposed sound quality tiring to hear at any length.

yes, it probably was a comment in the thread about shotgun mics.  that makes sense.

many thanks for the feedback.  very helpful as always.

Offline Fried Chicken Boy

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #88 on: January 29, 2013, 03:46:22 PM »
I want to know who voted for the milabs. what samples have they heard that I haven't? (I haven't heard any....)

This.  I've never heard a Milab supercard sample, either, and am very much all ears if anyone can point us in the direction of at least one.

That aside, I've never owned any of the capsules listed but have listened to all of them.  I view the hyper/super pattern as a tool to do a certain job rather than using it for its sonic characteristics.  Most of them sound a little crispy on the high-end and lack low-end to me.  With that in mind, I voted for the Schoeps 41 since, to my ears, it's the most "un-hyper/super" sounding of the bunch. 

Offline hi and lo

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #89 on: January 29, 2013, 03:54:51 PM »
I want to know who voted for the milabs. what samples have they heard that I haven't? (I haven't heard any....)

This.  I've never heard a Milab supercard sample, either, and am very much all ears if anyone can point us in the direction of at least one.

That aside, I've never owned any of the capsules listed but have listened to all of them.  I view the hyper/super pattern as a tool to do a certain job rather than using it for its sonic characteristics.  Most of them sound a little crispy on the high-end and lack low-end to me.  With that in mind, I voted for the Schoeps 41 since, to my ears, it's the most "un-hyper/super" sounding of the bunch.

I guess I should vote on this. +t to the above comment; I voted and feel exactly the same.

I would be curious to hear more 41v tapes, but from my understanding the relationship between 41vs and 41s is not at all the same as 4vs vs 4s (with the extended HF bump) and differences are primarily functional (being side-addressed) rather than sonic. I'm sure there are some off-axis response differences (and maybe I'm not giving those enough credit), but generally speaking, I don't think they're all that applicable to our hobby, at least no in the same way as the 4v.

I would also like to hear the mi-labs hypers.

cashandkerouac

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #90 on: January 29, 2013, 03:59:40 PM »
I want to know who voted for the milabs. what samples have they heard that I haven't? (I haven't heard any....)

This.  I've never heard a Milab supercard sample, either, and am very much all ears if anyone can point us in the direction of at least one.

That aside, I've never owned any of the capsules listed but have listened to all of them.  I view the hyper/super pattern as a tool to do a certain job rather than using it for its sonic characteristics.  Most of them sound a little crispy on the high-end and lack low-end to me.  With that in mind, I voted for the Schoeps 41 since, to my ears, it's the most "un-hyper/super" sounding of the bunch.

if there were more available recordings made with the Sennheiser MKH8050 i think folks would jump on the bus.  most of what i record using my 8050s is not able to be uploaded to public trackers, and i'm not aware of any other tapers using this mic on a regular basis.

i tend to agree with FCB's comments that the hyper-super pattern is used as a tool for a certain job rather than purely for its sonic characteristics.  as much as i love the MKH8050s for certain situations in which they are the better tool for the job, i much prefer the sonic characteristics of the MKH8040s.  that being said, when i need a hyper-supercard the MKH8050s are my "go-to" solution.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 04:01:13 PM by bass_ur_face »

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #91 on: January 29, 2013, 04:19:04 PM »
I can look at the graphs and data plots of the milab hyper and that plus what I've heard from the cardioid can tell it's probably going to be bright (I find the cardioid somewhat bright), my question is really; how bright? Would I need a neve portico behind them or would just running them be tolerable.
"This is a common practice we have on the bus; debating facts that we could easily find through printed material. It's like, how far is it today? I think it's four hours, and someone else comes in at 11 hours, and well, then we'll... just... talk about it..." - Jeb Puryear

"Nostalgia ain't what it used to be." - Jim Williams

Offline Fried Chicken Boy

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #92 on: January 29, 2013, 05:14:25 PM »
^^  The Milab VM-44 cardioid does have a bit of a mid-high frequency bump on their charts (maybe similar to the Schoeps MK5 card or MK4v?) which gives it a little "shimmer" in that range.  acidjack, hi and lo, and I have done some informal comparisons between them and the Schoeps MK41 and have been more surprised with how similar they sound than their differences.  The 41's have a little more presence in the upper-mids, the VM-44's have a bit more low-end and slightly wider soundstage (to be expected), but the rest is startlingly close by our ears.  YMMV.  As has been stated earlier in this thread, would love to hear samples of the VM-44 supers to see how they stack up to the cards.

Offline Todd R

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #93 on: March 04, 2013, 11:34:04 AM »
MG21's for me as well.  I would be curious to know what I'd think about the Milab supercards given how much I liked the Milab vm44 cards, but I've never run the supercards or even heard a recording with them.

I've owned the AKG ck63s, Gefell m21, MBHO ka500 hypers, Neumann ak50's..... 

I now own both the Beyer mc950 hypers and Audix m1290 hypers.  Both are excellent sounding hypers to my ear, esp for the money.  They definitely aren't Gefell, Neumann, or Schoeps quality, but with a little bit of post-processing tweaking can sound very good and make for excellent hypercard recordings.  I like both better than the MBHOs I owned and better than all the cheaper hypers I've owned.  I like the Beyer mc950s better than the AKG ck63 hypers, and may even like the Audix m1290hc better than the AKGs.  I always thought the Audix m1290s had a similar sound as the AKGs, but they don't seem to have the fatiguing sound I hear in the AKGs.

Just a follow up on the Beyer mc950 hypers.  I uploaded my Furthur mc950 recording to the Archive:

http://archive.org/details/furthur2013-02-22.mc950

I also recorded on the same stand a DPA 4022 > USBPre2 source which is on the Archive.  I was clamped to Bennett's stand, and his mk4+mk41 matrix is posted to the Archive, if you want to compare sources (Beyer hypers to a hyper+card mix).  Ryan's Busman ck1 > V3 rig (with the Busman hyper caps) and Rob's Neumann km140>littlebox rig were on the stand next to us, so there are a lot of nearby rigs to compare to if you want to see how the Beyer mc950's stack up.


Edit:  Some more mc950 Archive links pulled from another post of mine:

If you want to check out some mc950 recordings, here are some links to some Archive shows of mine.  The first is a Yonder show that I recorded with DPA 4022's > Aerco MP2, but my Aerco fritzed out and the latter half of the 2nd set is my Beyer mc950> SD USBPre2 source.  Gives you a chance for a pseudo comp against the DPAs.  The next one is a Phil and Friends show I recorded back in the taperssection of a ~6500 person mini-arena, maybe 125' back from the stacks.

http://archive.org/details/ymsb2012-12-28.dpa4022
http://archive.org/details/phil2012-02-17.mc950.flac16
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 11:39:31 AM by Todd R »
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
Preamp:  none <sniff>
Recorders:  Sound Devices MixPre-6, Sony PCM-M10, Zoom H4nPro

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #94 on: March 04, 2013, 07:20:37 PM »
I would LOVE to hear some Milab hypers as well. And obviously, I voted for the mk41[big surprise there huh?] ;D
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

Offline John Willett

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Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #95 on: March 05, 2013, 03:34:19 AM »
I would LOVE to hear some Milab hypers as well. And obviously, I voted for the mk41[big surprise there huh?] ;D

But the Gefell  M21 is getting a lot of votes, which says a lot as it's far less well known and people may just vote for the Schoeps on reputation.  ;)

Though the OP did forget the Gefell M310, which is also a very nice hyper (ceramic capsule and opto-coupled phantom power that prevents any DC nasties getting into the audio circuit).

 

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