Topic: Do I get the Schoeps MK4, MK41's or MK5?

[Ultfris101]

My experience after recently moving up to Schoeps MK5s is that most of the time I still do some EQ and/or parallel compression but the Schoeps capture a LOT of detail and range to work worth. Good mics don't necessarily mean you get a perfect recording with no post-processing. The MK5's with their high frequency boost are more similar to than different from my AKG's in the less than ideal venue I tape in most but there's definitely more detail to my ears and I do some chamber music recording which the Schoeps are ideal for. That's why the mk5s are the caps for me.

I find I prefer the card openness when comparing head to head with the supers, but the difference melts away after listening to an mk41 source for a while. I certainly wouldn't complain. I recorded Drive-By Truckers next to a mk41 rig in Charlottesville on 6/30 for a good comparison of the card vs super.

When contemplating my next aquisition I'm torn between cards and supers but cards give me the most options for all the different stuff I like to record. Fortunately or unfortunately that's not a decision.to make any time soon.

[Jonas Karlsson]

My experience after recently moving up to Schoeps MK5s is that most of the time I still do some EQ and/or parallel compression but the Schoeps capture a LOT of detail and range to work worth. Good mics don't necessarily mean you get a perfect recording with no post-processing. The MK5's with their high frequency boost are more similar to than different from my AKG's in the less than ideal venue I tape in most but there's definitely more detail to my ears and I do some chamber music recording which the Schoeps are ideal for. That's why the mk5s are the caps for me.

I find I prefer the card openness when comparing head to head with the supers, but the difference melts away after listening to an mk41 source for a while. I certainly wouldn't complain. I recorded Drive-By Truckers next to a mk41 rig in Charlottesville on 6/30 for a good comparison of the card vs super.

When contemplating my next aquisition I'm torn between cards and supers but cards give me the most options for all the different stuff I like to record. Fortunately or unfortunately that's not a decision.to make any time soon.

I'm counting on doing som EQ even with Schoeps, but not as much as with the CA14's.

The only way to know what to compare I simply have to decide what to get and then compare at hometurf to see what I'm getting. Listening to recordings made on the other side of the globe will not really make me decide - cause I don't know what the situation has been during the recording. What stealth mode has been used or wind, surroundings etc.

Good to get points of view from you, the Schoeps-family 

Appreciate any input, what so ever. So keep the spirit going 

/Jonas

[Ultfris101]

I'm with you on that. I need to get the gear in my hands to truly understand how all the factors play into the sound. If you have the means, get them and play.

[noahbickart]

Get the mk5, which schoeps suggests everyone start with.

[Gutbucket]

Just curious, have you considered the microphones made in your home country?  There are some nice microphones made in Sweden-  Milab, Pearl, Line-Audio.

[Jonas Karlsson]

Just curious, have you considered the microphones made in your home country?  There are some nice microphones made in Sweden-  Milab, Pearl, Line-Audio.

Nope - I've heard shows recorded in the 80's with Milab-mics though (small ones). Might have happened a few things after that (to the better) 

Seems most of these brands are more suitable for acoustic settings.

/Jonas

[acidjack]

Milabs are great mics for rock recording.  A buddy of mine runs them next to my Schoeps frequently. My only knock on them would be the "active" system is less convenient in terms of not having the mounts, cable options, etc. that the Schoeps do. Of course, they cost like half as much.

What Schoeps to buy really depends what you want to do with them. Remember that none of these mics were made to record rock concert PA systems from 100-200 ft away like many people here do. Looking at the Schoeps guidelines is to a degree somewhat meaningless, because what we do (mostly amateurs recording rock concert PA systems) is sort of the equivalent of taking a Porsche and using it to drive at 15mph around your gated community. 

Even the supercardiod MK41s are designed for use at much closer distances than most of us are able to record at. Much closer. The notion of using wide-angle cardiods (22s, 21s) at a distance, having tried it myself more than a few times, borders to me on ludicrous.

From practical experience, if you are rarely up very close (and for taping purposes I'd call that 50ft or less max) and your rooms aren't great, I think the MK41 would serve you better. If you stealth and can get up close, or you record in nice-sounding rooms with great acoustics, then the MK5 is a better option. I disagree that the MK5 is more versatile for rock music taping, in that while it is an outstanding sounding capsule in a good room, the MK41 will outperform it in a bad one, and the MK41 is not significantly worse than it in an up-close situation either. I believe there is even a comp floating around here of almost every kind of Schoeps being used to record onstage jazz, and even in that situation -- which would be one where I'd reach for MK5s or MK21s (if I owned them) -- the MK41 still sound pretty damn good.

[F.O.Bean]

And I mainly record FOB/DFC WITH my hypers[483>MBHO>Schoeps] and they sound KILLER there too Seems like folks are afraid to run hypers in those great locations where everyone says to run cards/omnis, etc......... Thats where I think the mk41 REALLY SHINE, is when theyre FOB/DFC. Dont get me wrong, mk4/mk21/mk2 sound killer there too. But if someone wants to run mk41s FOB/DFC, then DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO EEEEEEEEEEEEEETTTTTTTTTTTT! They will contain less much chatter especially if you want or need to run your stand lower around head height Search my LMA links under "diskobean" on everyone of my posts and search for my mk41 recordings. Just get the mk41s if you only have the $$$ for ONE set of capsules! And get a Tinybox with OUTPUT TRANSFORMERS and youll be thanking me later.

IMO, the Schoeps>Naiant sound is as top notch as you can get soundwise IMO. IMO that combo sounds just as good/better than ANY OTHER preamp combo out there, regardless of the costs Hell, I like Both of my Littleboxes soundwise better than my old Sonosax[Lemo], and thats the god honest truth

Best of luck with your search, and DL a TON of my mk41>Lemosax/Naiant Littlebox sources on the LMA first, so you know exactly what sound youre getting into

Bean

Thanks Bean, I will defenitely check it out.

The thing is, I'd like to have a mic that will suit best in MOST situations. I never sit and record, never use a stand - always stand on the floor as we do in Europe. BUT - as I'm not getting younger, it would be nice to feel that I could buy seats on the side in the future to be able to record shows with some sort of card/supercard, still in stealthmode. More likely is that I will continue to record from the stands, but a bit further back.

I'd like the experience of taping of festivals to continue - and that's probably something to discuss. What would work best there? A MK4 in front of the PA (30-100ft from the PA) or the MK41? Which would work best without a "dead muppet" or "dead rat" or whatever you call it?  Standing DFC at festivals is a bad idea (at least in Europe) since that's where all people cue up to stand. The sides are much better, regarding less people (more room for taping).

It seems, however, that the samples I hear from the Schoeps overall - has not been eq'd or tampered with. That's really the MAIN reason for the upgrade.

/Jonas

i can't speak specifically to the mk41 caps, but hypers or super-cards up close can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on the stage setup. 

if i am front row recording a full band on a decent size stage i do not like using hypers/sub-cards because the soundfield is just too wide at that short distance for hypers/super-cards to yield a balanced recording.  the instruments at the far ends of the stage can be very low in the mix because of the narrow pickup pattern of the hypers/super-cards and the instruments right in front of you are sometimes too loud in the mix.  there is not much you can do in post-production to correct that situation.

if i am in the front row recording a solo performer or a small band that is set up in the middle of the stage then hypers/super-cards can be fantastic.

i think your decision to go with MK4, MK41 or MK5 caps is largely contingent on your taping style(s).  if you are a taper that is always going to be in the same spot then you should probably go with the mic that will work best for that taping location based on your preferences and tatse for sound.  if you are likely to change positions from night to night you probably need a more general purpose mic or several mics so you can select the best tool for the job on any particular night. 

there really is no correct answer here.  i think the biggest variable in the equation is YOU, not so much the mics.  all the caps you mention are stellar!

100% agreed BYF. If youre "too close" then you HAVE TO use Omnis/Subs/Cards. I was commenting on the fact if im FOB/DFC in the sweet spot, supercards can sound AMAZING. And remember its not the mic or preamp or recorder, its ALL ABOUT location and room/festie sound

[F.O.Bean]

>Right now I use the Church CA14's (omni's and cardioid) and has gotten really great results with both

 Most of the MK4 + MK41-recordings I've heard have not got the highs I like best. As I said earlier - would like to do as little as possible in post.

/Jonas

Why don't you just stick with the Church mic's if the Schoeps sound isn't to your liking.

Because the CA14's obviously need even more work in post. My setup, that isn't visual even in daylight - needs added highs + mids to sound the way my ears like it at 95% of the shows I record. Not very strange when they're not on a 10ft stand of course!

Overall I like the fullness of the sound the Schoeps produce when they're at their best, also I hear the Schoeps sound more detailed. CA 11 & CA14 sounded a lot better than I expected compared to my old Sonic Studios DSM-6EL (which obviously was a kind of omni mic). I wanted a microphone that was coping with most type of venues, the Sonics just didn't do it at bigger arenas + festivals (and they were not very stealthy). In Sweden we also have the stupid 100dB-law I've written about before, and the crowds often sound louder than the music - especially at the smaller shows.

I'm defenitely NOT expecting a 20X improvement when using the Schoeps! I even think some of the swedish tapers will actually have the same shows recorded that I do, with better sounding recordings than I do! I've always said that you need a LOT of luck recording. At 1 show out of 10 you will get the perfect spot, with no screamers, clappers and the good PA-sound. The others you will get at least one of these 3. It's my 21 years of going to shows and record them that will lead me to a good spot and knowing when to move before the show starts if a gang of girls show up, or the 3 drunk friends suddenly move closer to you making the spot you're at unusable. In the future I want to be more in the back - getting the full sound from the floor with none of these 3 things mentioned before. CA14 to my ears just don't cut it with that long distance from the speakers. But that's just my opinion. You tapers in the U.S. record a lot of shows from seats pretty way back sometimes and using the Schoeps your recording sound sweeter than I would ever get using my current setup.

Enough said - the CA14's will still be in my arsenal of choice - I just feel I need to try the Schoeps out. If it doesn't work - I'll have a full rig for sale which haven't really lost any value perhaps it works better on the other side of the globe (with a crowd not moving around and sounds over 100dB) but who knows if I don't try???

/Jonas

With the majority of your shows in small clubs and very talkative concertgoers, the obvious choice are the mk41s The mk5s are nice and all, but I dont ever run omnis and I dont prefer the HF bump of the mk4v/mk5 in the card setting. I much prefer the sound of the regular good 'ole mk4s, and mk41s I dont think you can go wrong with the mk41s for now, since you cant afford mk4/mk22 AND mk41s. Buy the mk41s new and when/if you sell them, I'll sell my mismatched mk41s and buy your minty mk41s. Oh and get Nextel Grey

Seriously, just go to archive.org and DL/Stream a SHITLOAD of recordings and see which you prefer. Go to the bottom of my posts and search under the "diskobean" bookmarks from archive.org. I think you could get a complete mk41/KCY/Tinybox/M10 setup for under 3k Maybe more like 2.5k.

Used mk41s =$1,300
Used KCY    =$700-ish
Tinybox w [OT] = $350 MAX
Sony M10 = $250

TOTAL = $2,600.00

mk5s will cost you an EASY 2k used. And if you ever use omnis, then id maybe get the mk5s. but if you NEVER use omnis, I wouldnt waste my $$ on them just to never be used. You can take the other $700-ish youd spend on mk5s[2k-ish], and put that $$$ towards a pair of mk4/mk22s[$1300/pair]

[F.O.Bean]

And I might EQ about 3 recordings a year since 2011 when I got into Schoeps from [MBHO>AKG480]. I think the Schoeps mk41>LB[OT] sound is very pleasing and well balanced, so I VERY RARELY have to EQ any of my recordings. and I dont go overboard with the EQing. I use the multiband compressor in Wavelab 6, and usually add or remove lowend. Thats it, PERIOD

[Jonas Karlsson]

With the majority of your shows in small clubs and very talkative concertgoers, the obvious choice are the mk41s The mk5s are nice and all, but I dont ever run omnis and I dont prefer the HF bump of the mk4v/mk5 in the card setting. I much prefer the sound of the regular good 'ole mk4s, and mk41s I dont think you can go wrong with the mk41s for now, since you cant afford mk4/mk22 AND mk41s. Buy the mk41s new and when/if you sell them, I'll sell my mismatched mk41s and buy your minty mk41s. Oh and get Nextel Grey

Seriously, just go to archive.org and DL/Stream a SHITLOAD of recordings and see which you prefer. Go to the bottom of my posts and search under the "diskobean" bookmarks from archive.org. I think you could get a complete mk41/KCY/Tinybox/M10 setup for under 3k Maybe more like 2.5k.

Used mk41s =$1,300
Used KCY    =$700-ish
Tinybox w [OT] = $350 MAX
Sony M10 = $250

TOTAL = $2,600.00

mk5s will cost you an EASY 2k used. And if you ever use omnis, then id maybe get the mk5s. but if you NEVER use omnis, I wouldnt waste my $$ on them just to never be used. You can take the other $700-ish youd spend on mk5s[2k-ish], and put that $$$ towards a pair of mk4/mk22s[$1300/pair]

Well I already own the M10, and I do use the CA14 omni's quite a bit. The problem with using the CA14 omni's in Sweden is the low dB from the PA's (not over 100dB, and they're thinking of lowering it even more!) which make some of the otherwise great recordings full of screamers, talkers and clappers. That can be somewhat fixed in post, but I'd prefer a better (more detailed) raw copy to work with. I will continue to be a stacktaper - not really sure why you want to stand in the middle FOB with the rest of the audience. At most shows you can get really close to the PA since people tend to go to the middle (like in a straight line from Left+Right PA and down to the mixingtable).

/jonas

[page]

I will continue to be a stacktaper - not really sure why you want to stand in the middle FOB with the rest of the audience.

Most of us who do that do it for the stereo image or soundstage that is created in the room. The PA is likely still mono, but the reverb in the room will give a sense of "stereoness" for lack of a better term.

Since you're not doing that, thats why I suggested the mk41s over a more open pattern; you're already ditching that in favor of clarity of the stack, why mess around.

[Jonas Karlsson]

I will continue to be a stacktaper - not really sure why you want to stand in the middle FOB with the rest of the audience.

Most of us who do that do it for the stereo image or soundstage that is created in the room. The PA is likely still mono, but the reverb in the room will give a sense of "stereoness" for lack of a better term.

Since you're not doing that, thats why I suggested the mk41s over a more open pattern; you're already ditching that in favor of clarity of the stack, why mess around.

I see, thanks for clarifying. Haven't really tested to record DFC, but I think it will be harder in Sweden because of the 100dB-thing, with such low dB's it's probably better to get as close to the stacks as possible. You can talk to each other at shows in Sweden, no need for shouting. But drunks shout anyways, therefore the chatter on recordings done here.

PA is mono, but as you say - the reverb can sound absolutely great sometimes 

Still haven't decided which way to go yet... BUT - since there are no really excellent concert halls in my town (soundwise), and I would like to cut down on crowd chatter - the MK5 is probably not an option: I like the sound of an omni, but is it worth that much in $? Rather hold on to my CA14's for certain places.

The MK4 is a cardioid and would probably work excellent at the places that are semi big - but at the small venues and larger arenas I might do better with an MK41 (super cardioid). PA's usually hang far up in the ceiling, if I stand on the floor.

So... 75% MK41 and 25% MK4. Do you think I'm thinking right? 

Anyone have any tips on mic placement during stealth - please PM and I will explain my settings!! (ORTF, A+B etc)

[stevetoney]

Interesting...most of the rooms I tape in, which are mid-sized rooms that can accomodate 300 to 500  people, the PAs get mixed in stereo.  It seems to me that more and more bands, especially the electronic bands, like to futz with putting specific sounds through specific channels.  My center located recordings pick that imaging up nicely.  The small rooms around here are definitely mixed mono though.

At festivals, I'd say they mix more mono than stereo, but alot of stages have a stereo mix as well.  If I could generalize, the smaller side stages tend to have a stereo mix, but the main stage tends to be mono, but not always.

[Jonas Karlsson]

I figure you're right there, when thinking about it, I've heard shows that display sounds differently L to R. You're probably right!!!

/Jonas