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Author Topic: Sennheiser 421s - pros, cons?  (Read 20265 times)

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Offline laptaper

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Sennheiser 421s - pros, cons?
« on: September 12, 2006, 11:38:21 PM »
I'm listening right now to a master FOB cassette of the Dead on 7/2/89 at Foxboro Stadium, which someone asked me to digitize along with some of his other masters.  It was taped using Sennheiser 421s and sounds better than the Schoeps source on archive.org.  There's a lot of richness and warmth, but also definition and separation in the recording.  Is this due more to the mike placement (it sounds like it was right in the Phil zone) or to the mikes themselves?  What are the pros and cons of Senn 421's?  I'm seeing some being sold on eBay and am tempted to click and buy right now.  Thanks.

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Re: Sennheiser 421s - pros, cons?
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2006, 11:57:54 PM »
from the Dead tapes I have heard,  they sound kinda thin to my ears.

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Re: Sennheiser 421s - pros, cons?
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2006, 12:34:04 AM »
Thanks for the topic link.  So the gist that I'm getting from the link you posted is that Senn 421s are generally considered bright with not a great bass response, but in an FOB or similarly high-bass environment they can definitely hold their own (not to mention their physical sturdiness).  There was also mention of Healy's regular use of them.  That makes sense then, because there is a definite Healyesque quality to this recording, a strong bass but also very clear highs.

Sometime within the next month I'll be seeding the recording in both 16 and 24 bit to shnflac.net.  I'll post a link in this topic when I do, it's a source you really want to get.

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Sennheiser 421s - pros, cons?
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2006, 01:22:28 AM »
The original 421 is one of the best dynamic mics EVER MADE. IMO the design was light years ahead of anything else. The only problem with this mic is its no where near as sensitive as the mics we use now. It was designed for close miking. This dynamic mic like most is subject to proximity effect; the closer you are to the source the better the bass response will be. Now in a very high decibel level rock show with the right placement the low end might be very good, you would need a very loud sound pressure to get these mics to really sing.

The 421 used a phase plug in the center of the mic capsule it had a winding of wire this acted as a humbucking coil to eliminate or reduce EMI. It also helped form a wave guide that acted as a boost for ultra high end thus giving it a very crisp top end unlike most dynamic mics of its era. The humbucking coil they developed for use with dynamic mic coils is still in use today and was a huge factor in lowering the mics self noise.

They also used a Helmholtz resonator, this tuned cavity in the body of the 421 feed by a small tube from the back of the mic capsule helped lower the resonate frequency of the mic capsule it self thus improving its low end response. This mic also used an alnico 5 magnet structure. The 421 of today is nowhere near as good as they once were in fact they use neodymium magnets and have a weight inside the mic so it does not feel cheap. The size of the diaphragm on this mic was 1.5 inches! It’s a very big capsule. Frequency response was 28 Hz to 18 kHz and this mic handles very hi SPL of 148db!

There was also the Sennhieser 409 a very good mic. I would also check out the EV RE20/27 and Shure SM7 they are also very good dynamic mics. Ev was a real pioneer of dynamic mic designs. I often wonder why more people do not try dynamic mics for live recording of loud concerts. Back in the "day" there was little choice most condenser mics required huge power supply's and were not portable so they used mics like 421's.


I'm listening right now to a master FOB cassette of the Dead on 7/2/89 at Foxboro Stadium, which someone asked me to digitize along with some of his other masters.  It was taped using Sennheiser 421s and sounds better than the Schoeps source on archive.org.  There's a lot of richness and warmth, but also definition and separation in the recording.  Is this due more to the mike placement (it sounds like it was right in the Phil zone) or to the mikes themselves?  What are the pros and cons of Senn 421's?  I'm seeing some being sold on eBay and am tempted to click and buy right now.  Thanks.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2006, 01:24:08 AM by Church-Audio »
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Offline laptaper

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Re: Sennheiser 421s - pros, cons?
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2006, 02:13:09 AM »
I'm afraid I don't understand some of the more technical aspects of your post - I'm still very much a newbie at this, I've never even owned a set of mikes.  I do know that I want a pair that has at least a 24 khz response since I want to tape in 24 bit/48 khz.  If the Sennheisers only go up to 18 then I suppose I need to look elsewhere.  Thanks.

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Sennheiser 421s - pros, cons?
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2006, 10:35:00 AM »
Big and heavy!
Decent sounding mic that can handle the loudest of situations. But not so good if its quiet.

Don't confuse digital sample rates with microphone frequency response.

Yep just try and stealth with these I dare ya LOL they are huge and ugly and Moke is correct frequency response and sampling rates are not the same thing. Most mics only really do up to 18k that are anywhere near flat *cardioid mics that is* most good omni mics will go all the way up to 30k and be fairly flat.

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Re: Sennheiser 421s - pros, cons?
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2006, 10:42:09 AM »
Okay, so as not to confuse them, what exactly is the difference between sample rate and frequency response?  Doesn't an 18khz response mean that a mike is not going to record anything over 18khz?  Or am I missing something here?

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Re: Sennheiser 421s - pros, cons?
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2006, 01:16:20 PM »
I agree with Chris, that the original 421 was probably the best dynamic microphone ever manufactured. Look at any picture of the stage at a Grateful dead show from the 1980's. Damn near everything was miced with 421's, the kick drum, tom-toms, guitars, vocals...

421's also have a rotating collar that allows you to tailor a high pass filter.

These are great microphones for on stage or studio micing. There are much better options now for ambient recording. 
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

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Re: Sennheiser 421s - pros, cons?
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2006, 01:21:48 PM »
18khz is above the spectrum for human hearing. most people can't hear over 16khz, so, 18khz is fairly safe.

As far as sampling rates go,... when you mention 48khz, this is referring to the digital convertor gathering 16 bits, or, 24 bits of information, and sampling that lot 48,000 times per cycle before transmitting that digitized data to a bit-bucket (digi-recorder)..

I've generated 20 khz tones in Cool Edit, and although I've had to crank the volume on my stereo pretty loud I have been able to hear them.  I'm probably going to invest in speakers and an amp that can put out more than the standard 20 khz most consumer speakers and receivers are rated at.  I'm guessing my limit is going to be somewhere between 20-24 khz.

If I were to invest in a pair of omnis to get that 30 khz response, what would be a good pair to go with?

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Re: Sennheiser 421s - pros, cons?
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2006, 01:37:13 PM »

If I were to invest in a pair of omnis to get that 30 khz response, what would be a good pair to go with?

earthworks

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Re: Sennheiser 421s - pros, cons?
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2006, 01:38:57 PM »
I'm afraid I don't understand some of the more technical aspects of your post - I'm still very much a newbie at this, I've never even owned a set of mikes.  I do know that I want a pair that has at least a 24 khz response since I want to tape in 24 bit/48 khz.  If the Sennheisers only go up to 18 then I suppose I need to look elsewhere.  Thanks.

Big and heavy!
Decent sounding mic that can handle the loudest of situations. But not so good if its quiet.

Don't confuse digital sample rates with microphone frequency response.

Moke,
Seems like he is referring to Nyquist. If you are taping @ 48KHz, makes sense that you would want a mic that can record frequencies up to half that, or 24 KHz. Digital sampling rate is directly related to the freq. response contained in your recording.



« Last Edit: September 13, 2006, 01:40:37 PM by BC »
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Re: Sennheiser 421s - pros, cons?
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2006, 01:39:47 PM »
Okay, so as not to confuse them, what exactly is the difference between sample rate and frequency response?  Doesn't an 18khz response mean that a mike is not going to record anything over 18khz?  Or am I missing something here?

Don't make the mistake of getting elite-ist in looking at microphone specifications. Specs don't tell the whole story of how a microphone will sound. Find recordings you like and investigate what microphones were used to make that recording. As far as 30k microphones... Earthworks makes some, but you may not like how the sound for recording concerts, because they have an un-hyped sound.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements,  Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
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Re: Sennheiser 421s - pros, cons?
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2006, 01:42:56 PM »

If I were to invest in a pair of omnis to get that 30 khz response, what would be a good pair to go with?

earthworks



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Re: Sennheiser 421s - pros, cons?
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2006, 01:44:56 PM »
Okay, so as not to confuse them, what exactly is the difference between sample rate and frequency response?  Doesn't an 18khz response mean that a mike is not going to record anything over 18khz?  Or am I missing something here?

Don't make the mistake of getting elite-ist in looking at microphone specifications. Specs don't tell the whole story of how a microphone will sound. Find recordings you like and investigate what microphones were used to make that recording. As far as 30k microphones... Earthworks makes some, but you may not like how the sound for recording concerts, because they have an un-hyped sound.

I think wbrisette on here has made lots of earthworks tapes, maybe someone more knowledgeable than me can point out some places to d/l them. Chuck is right, they are supposed to be very neutral mics (which I personally like).



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Re: Sennheiser 421s - pros, cons?
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2006, 01:53:43 PM »
Okay, so as not to confuse them, what exactly is the difference between sample rate and frequency response?  Doesn't an 18khz response mean that a mike is not going to record anything over 18khz?  Or am I missing something here?

Don't make the mistake of getting elite-ist in looking at microphone specifications. Specs don't tell the whole story of how a microphone will sound. Find recordings you like and investigate what microphones were used to make that recording. As far as 30k microphones... Earthworks makes some, but you may not like how the sound for recording concerts, because they have an un-hyped sound.

I think wbrisette on here has made lots of earthworks tapes, maybe someone more knowledgeable than me can point out some places to d/l them. Chuck is right, they are supposed to be very neutral mics (which I personally like).





BeckyT made some Earthworks recordings too.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements,  Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlebox, Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

 

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