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Author Topic: Sennheiser 421s - pros, cons?  (Read 20517 times)

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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Sennheiser 421s - pros, cons?
« Reply #45 on: September 14, 2006, 09:44:51 AM »
thats an awful lot of effort for things that you'll never be able to hear.
Have fun guys.

I could say the same thing about people that place alarm clocks, and french braid pretty little cables and sell them for $900 but I wont go there. It would be nice to live in a world where snake oil audio solutions were not sold to unsuspecting buyers, who think good sound comes from an alarm clock but what do I know. :)
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Sennheiser 421s - pros, cons?
« Reply #46 on: September 14, 2006, 10:00:33 AM »
My clock radio rocks almost all the way up to 10khz!
It's only worth 10 bucks, but I do leave it plugged in while I listen to the stereo in the other room. ::)

You should hear my microwave..
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Offline TNJazz

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Re: Sennheiser 421s - pros, cons?
« Reply #47 on: September 14, 2006, 01:08:57 PM »
Here's a fun site, and apparently this is the new thing with the kidz...?

http://www.ultrasonic-ringtones.com/

So, what's the highest tone you can hear?  Be honest now!
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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Sennheiser 421s - pros, cons?
« Reply #48 on: September 14, 2006, 02:26:54 PM »
Here's a fun site, and apparently this is the new thing with the kidz...?

http://www.ultrasonic-ringtones.com/

So, what's the highest tone you can hear?  Be honest now!

I started highest (22.4 kHz) and couldn't hear it, and dropped down from there.  I heard the 2nd highest, 21.1 kHz.  I kept going down, and thought the 18.8 kHz sample sounded odd, like it was too low in frequency.  So I downloaded a handful of them (16.7 - 22.4 kHz) and checked 'em out in Adobe Audition via its frequency analyzer.  Well...the 22.4 kHz file...nothing!  Flatline waveform, empty frequency analysis result set.

Anyway, as for the others, though I heard the 2nd highest at 21.1 kHz, I'm not sure whether what I'm hearing is the target frequency or other low-level artifacts as a result of the MP3 encoding process.  Hmmmmm...   :hmmm:

I think I'm gonna try out this hearing test for kicks:

http://www.digital-recordings.com/hearing-test/www-ht-pro/ht_help_p.html
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Offline SparkE!

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Re: Sennheiser 421s - pros, cons?
« Reply #49 on: September 14, 2006, 02:58:19 PM »
The funny thing about harmonics is that even the ones you do not hear effect the ones you do. So you need to capture it all DAMIT :)

What's that?  You say you want to try another ABX comparison? >:D

OK sure lets do it, Two tracks ( the same song) One with a low pass at 20k 96db per octave, the other one with out any lowpass recorded at 24bit 192k  Does that sound like a fair test?
Let me know if you have trouble getting a hold of a 96db per octave lowpass I can do it here and upload the files already done.
Let me know if you can find a host for the files.

Chris Church


OK, you do that.  I'll be interested to see how you propose to get 96 dB per octave past 20 kHz.  How far down do you plan to be at 20 kHz? Wait... don't tell me... You want it to be flat to within 1 dB out to 20 kHz and be -96 dB by 40 kHz. 

There are many ways to do it but I can use a digital crossover to get the slope but it got me thinking I think I have to be carefull about this because if I use a digital crossover it will change the sound of the processed signal and make the two samples less like each other. Any ideas out there?


Chris, let me put this in perspective for you.  You get about 6 dB per octave rolloff in the stopband of a lowpass filter per pole in the transfer function for the filter.  With a single pole, you'll be down about 3 dB at the cutoff frequency.  When you go to multiple poles, you generally do not put all of your poles at the same frequency, but if you did, you'd get about 3 dB attenuation per pole at the cutoff frequency.  By the time you get 96 (!!) dB per octave, you're going to have 16 poles in the filter.  If all the poles are co-located, then you'll have 48 dB of attenuation at the cutoff frequency.  Something tells me that filtered and unfiltered versions will be easily recognizable if you have 48 dB of attenuation at the intended cutoff frequency.  In order to get any sort of flatness in the passband and still get a steep stopband attenuation curve, you'll have to resort to Chebyschev or elliptical designs.  With at least 16 poles in the transfer function, some of the poles will be extremely high Q poles which means your parts tolerances are going to be obscenely critical.  In order to get an analog filter that was flat to 1 dB in the passband and had 96 dB attenuation one octave into the stop band, you'll probably spend the rest of your life designing, re-designing and tweeking and still not get the job done.

In my opinion, the better approach would be to use a digital domain filter to boost the high frequency content of the signal from a microphone whose transfer function is well known and to do so in such a way that the resulting transfer function is flat out to the highest frequency for which you have calibration data for your mic.  So if you have 10 dB of rolloff in your mic's frequency response at 25kHz, that portion of the spectrum should be boosted by 10 dB.  The transfer function of your digital filter should ideally be the reciprocal of the complex conjugate of the frequency response of your microphone.  This will increase the quantization noise in the ultrasonic portion of the spectrum, but it's the only way I know of the simulate what a truly flat broadband microphone would sound like, at least with any reasonable amount of effort.  I'd offer to design a filter like this, but I no longer have access to DSP filter design tools and I don't feel like spending enough time to do it by hand when I know darn well that the only result is to modify signals that I can't hear anyway.

I'd also like to point out that it is not ideal to simply correct the amplitude in the stopband.  It would be better to flatten the spectrum by using a filter whose transfer function is the reciprocal of the complex conjugate of the frequency response of the device whose output you wish to flatten.  By using the reciprocal of the complex conjugate of the frequency of the mic used to do the recording, you not only correct the amplitude response, but you also get as close as possible to a linear phase (constant delay) response.  If you only correct the amplitude response then there may be artifacts from the uncompensated phase distortion that can appear as subharmonics within the audible portion of the spectrum and, as you should expect, you can probably hear arifacts if they are induced within the audible portion of the audio spectrum.

If you really want to do this, I'd recommend using FFT processing to transform the time domain waveform into the frequency domain, apply the required amplitude and phase equalization and inverse transform the result to get back to the time domain.  This will be an extremely processor intensive process, but it should yield relevant results.
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Offline Will_S

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Re: Sennheiser 421s - pros, cons?
« Reply #50 on: September 14, 2006, 03:02:07 PM »
Here's a fun site, and apparently this is the new thing with the kidz...?

http://www.ultrasonic-ringtones.com/

So, what's the highest tone you can hear?  Be honest now!

In addition to the issues Brian pointed out...

How can the crappy speaker in a cell phone be expected to produce these ultrasonic frequencies?

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Sennheiser 421s - pros, cons?
« Reply #51 on: September 14, 2006, 03:19:07 PM »
In addition to the issues Brian pointed out...

How can the crappy speaker in a cell phone be expected to produce these ultrasonic frequencies?

What driver does a cell phone use? Probably something like a tiny piezo transducer. No problem making ultasonic squeals with something like a 50 cent Radio Shack piezo buzzer. 

That's not to say it sounds any good.. or cleanly reproduces those tones without all kinds of distortion artifacts.
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Offline TNJazz

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Re: Sennheiser 421s - pros, cons?
« Reply #52 on: September 14, 2006, 03:39:54 PM »
Here's a fun site, and apparently this is the new thing with the kidz...?

http://www.ultrasonic-ringtones.com/

So, what's the highest tone you can hear?  Be honest now!

I started highest (22.4 kHz) and couldn't hear it, and dropped down from there.  I heard the 2nd highest, 21.1 kHz.  I kept going down, and thought the 18.8 kHz sample sounded odd, like it was too low in frequency.  So I downloaded a handful of them (16.7 - 22.4 kHz) and checked 'em out in Adobe Audition via its frequency analyzer.  Well...the 22.4 kHz file...nothing!  Flatline waveform, empty frequency analysis result set.

Anyway, as for the others, though I heard the 2nd highest at 21.1 kHz, I'm not sure whether what I'm hearing is the target frequency or other low-level artifacts as a result of the MP3 encoding process.  Hmmmmm...   :hmmm:

I think I'm gonna try out this hearing test for kicks:

http://www.digital-recordings.com/hearing-test/www-ht-pro/ht_help_p.html

Well according to the test then, you are a dog not a human.  I can hear 16.7 easily.  I thought I could hear the 18.8 but I wasn't sure for the same reasons as you.  I'm sure there is mp3 artifacting in these files anyway.  Plus right now I'm listening on crappy headphones plugged into my laptop.

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Re: Sennheiser 421s - pros, cons?
« Reply #53 on: September 14, 2006, 03:53:26 PM »
heres another, Brian http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/hearing.html

Here's a fun site, and apparently this is the new thing with the kidz...?

http://www.ultrasonic-ringtones.com/

So, what's the highest tone you can hear?  Be honest now!

I started highest (22.4 kHz) and couldn't hear it, and dropped down from there.  I heard the 2nd highest, 21.1 kHz.  I kept going down, and thought the 18.8 kHz sample sounded odd, like it was too low in frequency.  So I downloaded a handful of them (16.7 - 22.4 kHz) and checked 'em out in Adobe Audition via its frequency analyzer.  Well...the 22.4 kHz file...nothing!  Flatline waveform, empty frequency analysis result set.

Anyway, as for the others, though I heard the 2nd highest at 21.1 kHz, I'm not sure whether what I'm hearing is the target frequency or other low-level artifacts as a result of the MP3 encoding process.  Hmmmmm...   :hmmm:

I think I'm gonna try out this hearing test for kicks:

http://www.digital-recordings.com/hearing-test/www-ht-pro/ht_help_p.html

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Sennheiser 421s - pros, cons?
« Reply #54 on: September 14, 2006, 03:53:55 PM »
Chris, let me put this in perspective for you.....
.....If you really want to do this, I'd recommend using FFT processing to transform the time domain waveform into the frequency domain, apply the required amplitude and phase equalization and inverse transform the result to get back to the time domain.  This will be an extremely processor intensive process, but it should yield relevant results.

SparkE!,

This is way over my head, but it occurs to me that the low pass filtering done by the typical A/D stage is probably not taking anywhere near the optimized approach you've outlined.  Could the percieved differences people hear between 44.1khz sampled audio and higher sampling rates be due to artifacts related to non-ideal real world low pass filters? From your discourse it sounds to me like an ideal steep-enough filter gets very complex when the 22khz absolute frequency limit of 44.1khz sampled audio is not so very far above what most of us can hear. I'd guess the same problems arise with a higher rate but just manifest higher in frequency so the artifacts aren't noticed.

I guess what I'm trying to say is maybe people aren't actually hearing those ultra high harmonics, but are hearing artifacts of the lowpass filter.

just grasping..
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline SparkE!

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Re: Sennheiser 421s - pros, cons?
« Reply #55 on: September 14, 2006, 04:01:23 PM »
Chris, let me put this in perspective for you.....
.....If you really want to do this, I'd recommend using FFT processing to transform the time domain waveform into the frequency domain, apply the required amplitude and phase equalization and inverse transform the result to get back to the time domain.  This will be an extremely processor intensive process, but it should yield relevant results.

SparkE!,

This is way over my head, but it occurs to me that the low pass filtering done by the typical A/D stage is probably not taking anywhere near the optimized approach you've outlined.  Could the percieved differences people hear between 44.1khz sampled audio and higher sampling rates be due to artifacts related to non-ideal real world low pass filters? From your discourse it sounds to me like an ideal steep-enough filter gets very complex when the 22khz absolute frequency limit of 44.1khz sampled audio is not so very far above what most of us can hear. I'd guess the same problems arise with a higher rate but just manifest higher in frequency so the artifacts aren't noticed.

I guess what I'm trying to say is maybe people aren't actually hearing those ultra high harmonics, but are hearing artifacts of the lowpass filter.

just grasping..


Yeah, when you're talking about a digitial filter, there are all sorts of audible artifacts that can be introduced if you're not careful, but you can also build a much more agressive filter.  It's just math.  If you use a real analog filter, then you generally won't get audible artifacts unless something breaks into non-linear operation (like a spurious oscillation), but you can't be as agressive in removing undesired frequency components.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Sennheiser 421s - pros, cons?
« Reply #56 on: September 14, 2006, 04:03:57 PM »
Thanks for the hearing test links Teddy, I'll have to try this on the phones after I get home.  

At least there's few hours left to cram before the test..:-\

Maybe we should post sticky links to these somewhere, like in the other websites section of the board, in the name of protecting everyones hearing.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Sennheiser 421s - pros, cons?
« Reply #57 on: September 14, 2006, 04:27:48 PM »
Yeah, when you're talking about a digitial filter, there are all sorts of audible artifacts that can be introduced if you're not careful, but you can also build a much more agressive filter.  It's just math.  If you use a real analog filter, then you generally won't get audible artifacts unless something breaks into non-linear operation (like a spurious oscillation), but you can't be as agressive in removing undesired frequency components.

So when an analog signal is digitized at 44.1khz it first goes through an analog lowpass filter, as I understand it.  What slope is typically used? or where does the rolloff start if the signal must be way down by 22khz?

And if a digital file is resampled to 44.1khz or lowpassed to remove everything over 22khz, then the steep slope required to keep a relatively flat response up to 20khz is likely to produce audible artifacts when using simple digital techniques. 

Do I have it right?
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline SparkE!

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Re: Sennheiser 421s - pros, cons?
« Reply #58 on: September 14, 2006, 05:29:04 PM »
Yeah, when you're talking about a digitial filter, there are all sorts of audible artifacts that can be introduced if you're not careful, but you can also build a much more agressive filter.  It's just math.  If you use a real analog filter, then you generally won't get audible artifacts unless something breaks into non-linear operation (like a spurious oscillation), but you can't be as agressive in removing undesired frequency components.

So when an analog signal is digitized at 44.1khz it first goes through an analog lowpass filter, as I understand it.  What slope is typically used? or where does the rolloff start if the signal must be way down by 22khz?

And if a digital file is resampled to 44.1khz or lowpassed to remove everything over 22khz, then the steep slope required to keep a relatively flat response up to 20khz is likely to produce audible artifacts when using simple digital techniques. 

Do I have it right?

It's not common to use more than about an 8 pole filter for an anti-aliasing filter ahead of the A/D.  If it's flat to 20 kHz, then you're not going to be very far down at 22 kHz, so aliasing happens.  That's all the more reason to justify putting your band edge lower, perhaps at 16 kHz.  That way, you get more attenuation by 22 kHz.  For anti-aliasing, you HAVE to use a real filter.  Common digital filtering techniques will not work to avoid audible aliasing if you are using a 44.1 kHz sample rate.  However if you are using 88.2 kHz or 96 kHz, then your anti-aliasing filter only has to be sufficiently effective by the time it gets to 44.1 kHz or 48 kHz, respectively.  You should be able to get 50 or 60 dB of attenuation of products above the 1/2 sample rate frequency if you use one of the higher sample rates.  Then you can actually use digital techniques to remove inaudible portions of the signal between the cutoff frequency of your anti-aliasing filter and your 1/2 sample frequency.  Of course, it depends if you really want to do that.  Some people (like Chris Church) think it's a bad idea to remove the portion of the signal spectrum that is inaudible and that's really the essence of our disagreement.  Can you hear it if inaudible information is removed from a signal?  I claim that you can't.  Chris claims that it makes a difference because somehow the inaudible portion of the signal makes the audible portion more real sounding.  He could be right, but I seriously doubt it.  If someone comes up with a reasonable procedure to create files to compare without introducing audible artifacts, then I guess we'll see.  One file will need to have ultrasonic information in it.  The other file should be exactly the same, except missing the ultrasonic information or at least it should not have as much ultrasonic information in it.  I doubt that this will be an easy test to construct.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Sennheiser 421s - pros, cons?
« Reply #59 on: September 14, 2006, 05:51:00 PM »
Thanks for the well worded explaination. +T
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

 

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