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Author Topic: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.  (Read 22243 times)

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Offline digifish_music

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Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« on: September 17, 2007, 10:16:19 PM »
So you have $1000 (or less) to spend and you need in order of priority...

Stereo pair.
High sensitivity.
Very low noise.
Cardioid.
$1000 or less.

Will be paired with a Sound Devices MixPre.

Suggestions?

I notice most people here are recording various gigs, as is natural for the Taperssection :) however I am interested to see what people suggest. I am assuming that if the mic has the first 3 covered the frequency response is going to be fairly flat. However that's not critical to me, sounding good is more important...after all who knows what the duck sounded like live...so long as the recording is convincing and free of artifacts and hiss.

FYI: Some previous recordings.

http://www.digifishmusic.com/sounds/DaintreeRainforest2007.mp3

http://freesound.iua.upf.edu/usersViewSingle.php?id=29541

Note to download the high quality versions you need to be registered, the preview works as a guest.

digifish
« Last Edit: September 17, 2007, 10:26:08 PM by digifish_music »
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Offline guysonic

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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2007, 03:38:15 AM »
Mics for high quality sounding monophonic nature recording has wider choice of excellent sounding low noise mics like Sanken CS-3e shotgun to 1/2" or larger capsule omni mic.  Stereo is a mixed bag where most single point stereo like Rode NT4 Shure VP-88, lower costing Audio Technica AT-825, or (like you're planning) using two directional mono directional type mics in some kind of fixed array give inconsistent results from excellent to mediocre depending on working conditions and your end use purposes.

If wanting to capture consistent stereo-surround of the entire sound field exactly like you're hearing at the recording position in very consistent high quality manner, then suggest considering HRTF wind-screened version of Sonic Studios (my company DSM-1S/H) matched set especially suited for this type of recording interest.

Many natural/nature sounds raw recordings and compositions using this model/type of mic with equipment notes/links at:
www.sonicstudios.com/mp3.htm
"mics? I no got no mics!  Besides, I no have to show you no stink'n mics!" stxxlth taper's disclaimer

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Offline digifish_music

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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2007, 07:38:22 AM »
Thanks, I have had a good look at your stuff before. Nice.

For stereo, I already have a Rode NT4, Pair of NT5s, Pair of Behringer C2s, Audio Technica AT825 and a Sound Professionals SP-TFB-2. I carry an Edirol R-09 + SP-TFB-2 binaurals every where I go, 'just in case'.

So how do your binaurals compare to the Sound Professionals?

digifish.   
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Offline Frank in JC

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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2007, 11:24:55 AM »
Unless you need the isolation from unwanted sounds that a shotgun gives you, the ADK TLs fit your needs and budget.  I've used them several times for nature/city/ambient recordings and find the results "natural," no pun intended.  I normally run them as split omnis outside, but with 4 switchable patterns, you can run them in virtually any configuration you want.


Favorite generic quote from Archive.org:
"This recording is SICK--it's almost as good as a soundboard!"

Offline rokpunk

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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2007, 11:46:01 AM »
VP88 by Shure might be a good choice for you.
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Offline guysonic

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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2007, 12:26:24 PM »
Thanks, I have had a good look at your stuff before. Nice.

For stereo, I already have a Rode NT4, Pair of NT5s, Pair of Behringer C2s, Audio Technica AT825 and a Sound Professionals SP-TFB-2. I carry an Edirol R-09 + SP-TFB-2 binaurals every where I go, 'just in case'.

So how do your binaurals compare to the Sound Professionals?

digifish.   

Lower noise, uncolored extended bandwidth, effective transparent-to-sound windscreens.  The many 'raw' sample recording encoded directly to MP3 give reason to suspect there's truth to these claims.
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Offline digifish_music

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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2007, 08:43:30 PM »
Unless you need the isolation from unwanted sounds that a shotgun gives you, the ADK TLs fit your needs and budget.  I've used them several times for nature/city/ambient recordings and find the results "natural," no pun intended.  I normally run them as split omnis outside, but with 4 switchable patterns, you can run them in virtually any configuration you want.

Thanks, that's a fairly bulky rig for lugging tho...how are you shielding those outdoors? Specs look nice, worth investigating.

I had thought about experimenting with a pair of NT1-As, but would prefer to stay with a small diaphragm condenser for convenience purposes if possible.

digifish
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Offline digifish_music

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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2007, 08:48:42 PM »
VP88 by Shure might be a good choice for you.

Yes, a nice mic, but already having two single-point stereo mics I was looking for the flexibility of the matched pair approach. BTW: When using the NT5's and C2's I monitor what I am recording using sound isolating headphones (~ -32 dB attenuation from the real world) and adjust the mics spacing/angles etc so the stereo image is pleasing and detail I am interested in is audible. As I mentioned I am not after photorealistic accuracy of the space, just something that sounds good. I am getting the feeling that no one here post-produces their recordings? ;D

digifish.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 08:50:28 PM by digifish_music »
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Offline John Willett

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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2007, 07:29:40 AM »
For nature sounds the standard is to use Sennheiser MKH microphones because of the immunity to damp - but these are above the budget I'm afraid.

I do know of nature recordists who have great success with the Sennheiser K6 series - which *is* within budget - and the K6+ME64 is the cardioid version.  You don't need special matched pairs as manufacturing tolerances are tight to make random mics a matched pair.



Offline digifish_music

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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2007, 08:22:33 AM »
For nature sounds the standard is to use Sennheiser MKH microphones because of the immunity to damp - but these are above the budget I'm afraid.

I do know of nature recordists who have great success with the Sennheiser K6 series - which *is* within budget - and the K6+ME64 is the cardioid version.  You don't need special matched pairs as manufacturing tolerances are tight to make random mics a matched pair.


Thanks. Budget can stretch...but ouch, if the mics are $2000 I'll be waving $3000 at the shrubbery and that makes me nervous, one reason I really like the C2's is I don't care if they are destroyed. :)

digifish
« Last Edit: September 19, 2007, 08:37:13 AM by digifish_music »
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Online audBall

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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2007, 12:54:33 PM »
If the budget can 'stretch', have you thought about a small diaphragm MS set from a company like Schoeps or Neumann?

Have I spent enough of your money yet?  ;)
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Offline guysonic

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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2007, 07:06:20 PM »
If the budget can 'stretch', have you thought about a small diaphragm MS set from a company like Schoeps or Neumann?

Have I spent enough of your money yet?  ;)

On the other side of the coin, sometimes throwing more amounts of money into mics doesn't mean getting consistently better results and/or chances of surviving field working conditions.
"mics? I no got no mics!  Besides, I no have to show you no stink'n mics!" stxxlth taper's disclaimer

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Offline digifish_music

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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2007, 07:10:26 PM »
If the budget can 'stretch', have you thought about a small diaphragm MS set from a company like Schoeps or Neumann?

Have I spent enough of your money yet?  ;)

Yes :)

but I wanted to start a conversation with specifications and performance in the mid price bracket for most things since it's where 80-95% of the performance is to be had for 50-70% of the money. That last 5% get's exponentially expensive...and sometimes it's not even 5%.

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Offline digifish_music

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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2007, 07:16:21 PM »
If the budget can 'stretch', have you thought about a small diaphragm MS set from a company like Schoeps or Neumann?

Have I spent enough of your money yet?  ;)

On the other side of the coin, sometimes throwing more amounts of money into mics doesn't mean getting consistently better results and/or chances of surviving field working conditions.

Indeed.

A great examle of the $$$ factor, is the Rode NT1-A LD condenser. They can be had for about $199. Now it may not be your cup of tea and you
may want multiple patterns etc, but you can't argue about it's audio specifications and performance. It's a very quiet and sensitive mic. 15 years ago, worse performance would have cost you over $2000 in the money of the day.

digifish
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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2007, 05:29:41 AM »
On the other side of the coin, sometimes throwing more amounts of money into mics doesn't mean getting consistently better results and/or chances of surviving field working conditions.

Especially if you take into consideration dampness outside and what happens to microphones in such conditions.

Most condensers are AF condensers and the charge on the very high impedance capsule tends to leak away on water molecules in the air causing noise and crackles.

There is one mic. I know of that says it must *not* be used outdoors.

RF condenser mics (Sennheiser MKH series), because of the way thay work, are pretty well immune to these problems as the capsule is just a low impedance RF tuning capacitor.

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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2007, 05:50:56 AM »

Most condensers are AF condensers and the charge on the very high impedance capsule tends to leak away on water molecules in the air causing noise and crackles.


Sizzling is a common experience.

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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2007, 07:37:01 AM »
My suggestion of the MS setup was not to say that "spending more will produce better results".  While they certainly aren't 'budget setups', the flexibility of a card/fig-8 can give multiple results in the end (i.e. fine tuning). 

I'm also aware of the high polarization of the capsules possibly leading to pops/clicks.  Many of us are using the mics outdoors with great success.  I know my 1k's offer such polarization and it has worried me at times, but never produced any audible effects that I noticed.  Granted I'm not booming my mics over a swamp in NOLA, either. 

Do companies like Schoeps and Neumann suggest that their mics never be used outdoors?
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Offline db

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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2007, 12:52:32 PM »

For nature sounds the standard is to use Sennheiser MKH microphones because of the immunity to damp - but these are above the budget I'm afraid.
I do know of nature recordists who have great success with the Sennheiser K6 series - which *is* within budget - and the K6+ME64 is the cardioid version.  You don't need special matched pairs as manufacturing tolerances are tight to make random mics a matched pair.


the k6 or k6p me66 & 64 is a good way to go. well under 1k for module, cardioid, & shotgun $700ish. good sounding, aa battery operation and phantom (w/k6). i use this for film stuff. it's pretty hot and can't be used for p.a. recording unless you have the sennheiser service damp them down-- but for chirps, buzzes, and woodpecker sounds it's perfect.
db

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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2007, 02:44:41 PM »
For film and video dialogue work, I'd agree that the ME64/K6 and ME66/K6 mics are pretty good.  Durable, unaffected by weather, and a nice hot signal.  I'm much less enthusiastic about using either combination for nature or ambient sound recordings.  They just don't have a very natural sound and can sound a bit harsh and thin.  With voice work, you can overcome this with some EQ--at least to some extent.  For nature/ambient, I just don't think these mics are a good fit.  At least I've never been happy with that application because of the unnatural coloration of the recordings.  A lot of people go with the K6 combinations because of the self-powering, but with the MixPre, you have more options with the phantom power.  Maybe a matched pair of Oktava MK012's.  You'd need shock mounts and Rycote baby ball gags, but you'd  still be well under $1K.  The Oktava's aren't as sensitive as the ME64/K6, but with the MixPre, I'd think you'd be fine.

Offline ghellquist

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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2007, 03:26:16 PM »
One idea is to check on the renting market. I guess you could rent a MKH40 + Rycote windshield a lot of times for $1000.

Gunnar

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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2007, 04:11:35 PM »


have not experienced much in the way of lifelessness or harsh tones with the me66/64/k6. but i've only run them through a mme and sd442 and have not self-powered them in many moons.  if we're shooting for excellence, look for a used cmc6/mk41. should be around 1k.
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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2007, 02:10:00 AM »
Thanks for the suggestions so far...I will definitely check out the Sennheisers.

digifish.
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Offline cmquinn

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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2007, 03:18:26 PM »
Look up Dan Gibson microphone. You will find a parabolic mic for recording far off sounds. Ever watch a football game and see those guys on the sideline with a big clear parabolic dish. That is a Dan Gibson microphone. They are available on ebay fairly often.


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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2007, 06:02:14 PM »
I've been getting good results with AT-3032 omni's. The members of the naturerecordists group have found they have significantly lower self noise than manufacturers specs.

I'm using a rig based on a setup Curt Olson put together - see last rig on Curt's page here: http://www.trackseventeen.com/soundscapes/mic_rigs.html

with some added wind protection

http://www.mactrix.com.au/files/Image074.jpg
http://www.mactrix.com.au/files/Image075.jpg

There is a mp3 edit of a recent recording I made with this setup here:

http://www.mactrix.com.au/files/recordings/MtSamaria_Edit.mp3

cheers
Paul

Offline digifish_music

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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2007, 07:39:20 PM »
I've been getting good results with AT-3032 omni's. The members of the naturerecordists group have found they have significantly lower self noise than manufacturers specs.

cheers
Paul

Hey thanks Paul, great post.

I am always up for a new set of mics, I can't help myself :)

Your recording is fabulous, sounds tropical...thanks. Looking at the rigs it does appear to be a combination of binaural and XY...and possibly even a bit of boundary effect :)

...great!

BTW: I checked out ...

http://www.mactrix.com.au/recording/environmental_recordings

...not sure if you are aware of Freesound...

Heres's my page...

http://freesound.iua.upf.edu/usersViewSingle.php?id=29541

geotagging is particularly nice with feld recordings e.g....

http://freesound.iua.upf.edu/geotagsView.php?lon=145.334208011627&lat=-16.2729859463468&zoom=15

Wait for the red tags to apear and click on them to preview. To download the high-quality recordings you need to be registered on the site (like this place)...

digifish
« Last Edit: October 16, 2007, 08:03:58 PM by digifish_music »
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Offline ambo

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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2007, 08:21:59 PM »
Another vote for the AT3032's. I also bought these on recommendations from naturerecordist.org. They sound great for acoustic music as well and work very well in humid conditions.

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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2007, 09:01:41 PM »
Thanks. Budget can stretch...but ouch, if the mics are $2000 I'll be waving $3000 at the shrubbery and that makes me nervous, one reason I really like the C2's is I don't care if they are destroyed.

I don't know what the MKH418S is going for down there, but it might be worth looking at. I was able to pick one up new here in the states for not much more than the $1000 price tag you're going after (it was however a dealer open box).

Wayne
Mics: Earthworks SR-77 (MP), QTC-1 (MP)

Editing: QSC RMX2450, MOTU 2408 MK3, Earthworks Sigma 6.2

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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2007, 06:56:14 PM »
Hey thanks Paul, great post.

I am always up for a new set of mics, I can't help myself :)

Your recording is fabulous, sounds tropical...thanks. Looking at the rigs it does appear to be a combination of binaural and XY...and possibly even a bit of boundary effect :)

...great!

Wait for the red tags to apear and click on them to preview. To download the high-quality recordings you need to be registered on the site (like this place)...

digifish

hey thanks digifish,

the recording was done at mt samaria state park, north of Mansfield in Northern Victoria, approx 800m ASL, at 5.30am, and temps were close zero C.

The audio files will be moved off the current site in the near future to a new site that I'm working on.  I'm quite interested in the geotagged audio aspect and have an account over at freesound.  haven't put anything up there as yet. The site I'm working on will eventual integrate geotagged audio, but that means lots for recording trip's first ;)

At the moment I'd without recorder... I've just sold my MZ-RH1 and received an email this morning from Doug Oade that he will be shipping my supermod'd HD-P2 on friday, so it's looking like friday week before I'll be able to do some more recordings.


cheers
Paul


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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2007, 07:51:14 PM »
Digifish,

here a few more links that might be of interest:

there are some excellent student reports documenting various stereo boundary arrays, including Curt Olson type setups here: http://diystereoboundarymics.blogspot.com . These were done by students of naturerecordists list stalwart Rob Danielson.

The "discovery" of the AT-3032 is documented in this post to naturerecordists  http://bioacoustics.cse.unsw.edu.au/archives/html/naturerecordists/2005-11/msg00190.html  which says in part:

Quote
The oddity is that the specs on the AT3032 are good, but that the microphone is much better than the spec.
I measure my single sample of the 3032 at 8 dB(A) self noise, or about 3-4 dB better than either the Sennheiser MKH30 or the Schoeps MK2 (my reference standard). 

Walt Knapp also has some fantastic info on building Crown SASS arrays, which he mods to take different mics. He primarily records with Sennheiser MKH series mics, but there are also clips made using AT3032's in the same rig for comparison.

http://frogrecordist.home.mindspring.com/docs/mod_sass.html


cheers
Paul


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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2007, 07:59:55 PM »
Thanks Paul, more interesting reads.  :)

digifish
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2007, 08:42:45 PM »
Thanks Paul, more interesting reads.  :)

digifish

If you want binaural I would check out a pair of DPA 4090'S they have very little self noise and they are perfect for doing nature recording. But you must have a good high pass filter on them.
They are very flat very natural sounding mics.

Chris
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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2007, 12:31:33 AM »
If you want binaural I would check out a pair of DPA 4090'S they have very little self noise and they are perfect for doing nature recording. But you must have a good high pass filter on them.
They are very flat very natural sounding mics.

Chris


Hi Chris

The specs I've seen on the DPA-4090's give self noise as 23 dB(A) which seems pretty noisy in comparison with other mics that have been discussed [<16dB(A)].  Are DPA measuring differently to other manufacturers which makes the mics look nosier on paper than they actually are in use?

cheers
Paul

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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #32 on: October 18, 2007, 02:28:41 PM »
If you want binaural I would check out a pair of DPA 4090'S they have very little self noise and they are perfect for doing nature recording. But you must have a good high pass filter on them.
They are very flat very natural sounding mics.

Chris


Hi Chris

The specs I've seen on the DPA-4090's give self noise as 23 dB(A) which seems pretty noisy in comparison with other mics that have been discussed [<16dB(A)].  Are DPA measuring differently to other manufacturers which makes the mics look nosier on paper than they actually are in use?

cheers
Paul

DPA always "averages" there specs out because they make so many mics.. for the price I dont think there are to many mics that have that kind of noise floor.. And the other main issue is how accurate are the specs that these guys are printing? I trust DPA's Specs because making measuring equipment is what they do.. They make the equipment that is the industry standard for microphone measurement and calibration and noise measurements.
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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2007, 06:50:04 PM »

DPA always "averages" there specs out because they make so many mics.. for the price I dont think there are to many mics that have that kind of noise floor.. And the other main issue is how accurate are the specs that these guys are printing? I trust DPA's Specs because making measuring equipment is what they do.. They make the equipment that is the industry standard for microphone measurement and calibration and noise measurements.


There is a thread over at gearslutz which discusses the 4090 and the claims regarding it's self noise.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/115897-dpa-4090-truth-about-its-noise.html

from those discussions it does sound like it's a really nice mic, just not especially quite. These guys are talking about classical recording and listening to the clips posted to the thread didn't really give much of an idea how suitable they would be for nature recording.  Based on comments made in the above thread I'd be hiring a pair to test for myself in the field before committing to purchase.

cheers
Paul
 





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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2007, 08:29:10 PM »
from those discussions it does sound like it's a really nice mic, just not especially quite. These guys are talking about classical recording and listening to the clips posted to the thread didn't really give much of an idea how suitable they would be for nature recording.

This is similar to the Earthworks QTC-1/QTC-40/QTC-50 mic. They are awesome for recording classical music, but when you look at the self-noise, it's just way too much for nature recordings.

Wayne
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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2007, 10:12:22 PM »

DPA always "averages" there specs out because they make so many mics.. for the price I dont think there are to many mics that have that kind of noise floor.. And the other main issue is how accurate are the specs that these guys are printing? I trust DPA's Specs because making measuring equipment is what they do.. They make the equipment that is the industry standard for microphone measurement and calibration and noise measurements.


There is a thread over at gearslutz which discusses the 4090 and the claims regarding it's self noise.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/115897-dpa-4090-truth-about-its-noise.html

from those discussions it does sound like it's a really nice mic, just not especially quite. These guys are talking about classical recording and listening to the clips posted to the thread didn't really give much of an idea how suitable they would be for nature recording.  Based on comments made in the above thread I'd be hiring a pair to test for myself in the field before committing to purchase.

cheers
Paul
 







Trying to compair an ecm 8000 to any DPA mic IS A JOKE. I have had the DPA 4007 and compared it to the 4090 now the 4090 and it was pretty close.. But the 4007 had much less noise at the same gain settings.. But again that's a 2k microphone... It was hardly a fair comparison.. But I dont know of many mics in the price range of $469 each that have as good of a frequency response and as low of a noise floor..
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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #36 on: October 19, 2007, 10:16:02 PM »
16 or 17dB self noise can be pretty intrusive in nature recording, especially when coupled with low sensitivity.


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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #37 on: October 20, 2007, 12:49:50 AM »
16 or 17dB self noise can be pretty intrusive in nature recording, especially when coupled with low sensitivity.



Show me a mic that costs $500 that has a REAL self noise of 17 db please :)
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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #38 on: October 20, 2007, 01:14:04 AM »

Show me a mic that costs $500 that has a REAL self noise of 17 db please :)


i've never said such a mythical beast exists  ???

That said, the at3032 does seem pretty quite when compared to an ME66/K6 (10dBA) so who knows.

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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #39 on: October 20, 2007, 02:26:57 AM »

Show me a mic that costs $500 that has a REAL self noise of 17 db please :)


i've never said such a mythical beast exists  ???

That said, the at3032 does seem pretty quite when compared to an ME66/K6 (10dBA) so who knows.


Rode NT1-A

5 dB

http://www.rodemic.com/?pagename=Products&product=NT1-A

$199 Yes I know it's probably not what you meant :)

However I have been itching to do something like this with them...

http://www.uwm.edu/~type/audio-reports/Rode_NT1-A_Mics/NT1-A_index.htm



digifish

« Last Edit: October 20, 2007, 02:28:59 AM by digifish_music »
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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #40 on: October 20, 2007, 02:53:45 AM »
Self-noise is in reference to an equivalent SPL signal at the capsule, and is thus independent of the sensitivity rating.  Also, given the variation in manufacturers' noise rating protocols, at a minimum the noise rating should be noted as unweighted, A-weighted, etc, where possible.

Yes all that is true. I won't argue ;D

The noise floor of the mic is obviously fixed by the design and doesn't vary with the SPL. The sensitivity relates to the level of output given a specific SPL.

So if you have two mics with the same self noise but different sensitivity, the mic with the higher sensitivity will give a higher signal to noise ratio than the mic with lower sensitivity. Turning up the preamp gain to compensate for the lower sensitivity raises the noise floor along with the signal.

If you match playback levels for records made with these two hypothetical mics, the self noise is going to be at a higher level and be more obtrusive on the recording made with the lower sensitivity mic.

and thanks digifish how could I forget the "locally made" NT1A!!

cheers
Paul



 

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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #41 on: October 20, 2007, 05:14:04 AM »
AS mentioned, different mics have different sensitivities meaning preamp output level will vary for the same intensity of sound source at identical preamp gain. 

To make noise graphs meaningful, dB output level from calibrated sound source input at same preamp gain should be noted for each mic tested, and graph should be adjusted so relative noise comparison can be made for each mic.  Also, baseline plot of noise out of preamplifier loaded with ~100 ohms input at used gain should be shown on the graph. 

Without these considerations such graphs are meaningless to show which mics are indeed quieter over bandwidth.

Also, Eric Benjamin graph shows huge room 60/120 Hz electrical noise pollution occurring so at least lower frequency plots of noise over bandwidth characteristic is also meaningless.  These tests should be done inside 'screen room' environment that excludes such interferences.
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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #42 on: October 20, 2007, 05:32:58 AM »
AS mentioned, different mics have different sensitivities meaning preamp output level will vary for the same intensity of sound source at identical preamp gain. 

To make noise graphs meaningful, dB output level from calibrated sound source input at same preamp gain should be noted for each mic tested, and graph should be adjusted so relative noise comparison can be made for each mic.  Also, baseline plot of noise out of preamplifier loaded with ~100 ohms input at used gain should be shown on the graph. 

Without these considerations such graphs are meaningless to show which mics are indeed quieter over bandwidth.

...he did/does...

http://www.uwm.edu/~type/audio-art-tech-gallery/pages/page_38.html

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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #43 on: October 20, 2007, 11:26:13 AM »

Show me a mic that costs $500 that has a REAL self noise of 17 db please :)


i've never said such a mythical beast exists  ???

That said, the at3032 does seem pretty quite when compared to an ME66/K6 (10dBA) so who knows.


Rode NT1-A

5 dB

http://www.rodemic.com/?pagename=Products&product=NT1-A

$199 Yes I know it's probably not what you meant :)

However I have been itching to do something like this with them...

http://www.uwm.edu/~type/audio-reports/Rode_NT1-A_Mics/NT1-A_index.htm



digifish



Um you cant do noise measurements like that.. They must be done in a vacuum or in an anechoic chamber.. But not in a "quiet room" and where is your baseline measurement that shows the noise of your preamp? how are you subtracting your self noise of your signal chain?

Chris
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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #44 on: October 20, 2007, 02:26:46 PM »
Quote
So if you have two mics with the same self noise but different sensitivity, the mic with the higher sensitivity will give a higher signal to noise ratio than the mic with lower sensitivity. Turning up the preamp gain to compensate for the lower sensitivity raises the noise floor along with the signal.

If you match playback levels for records made with these two hypothetical mics, the self noise is going to be at a higher level and be more obtrusive on the recording made with the lower sensitivity mic.

I'm sorry, that is wrong.  Sensitivity is independent of noise rating.  It is true that there tends to be a relationship, because a larger diaphragm capsule tends to have greater sensitivity, and therefore greater signal to noise of its following circuitry.  But once you reach the level of reading a mics' specs, assuming two mics use the same noise rating, a direct comparison of noise ratings SHOULD be possible, without any adjustment for sensitivity.  If it is not, it has nothing to do with sensitivity, and everything to do with variation in manufacturer test methods.  If you have a noisy preamp, you would probably select a more sensitive mic, but that is a characteristic of your preamp, not the microphone.

Consider that sensitivity of a mic can be highly influenced by not only the capsule, but also the amplifier circuit.  I can take WM61A, for example, and make the sensitivity nearly anything you want, within reason.  Let's say -45dBV/Pa to -28dBV/Pa, without any following amplifier circuit, just the internal FET.  If I decide to add an internal amp, I could make it something completely silly like -10dBV/Pa.  Now those values will have implications for various parameters, but the noise will be the same (it would actually get a little noisier if I added the internal amp).

Take a couple of Shure mics mentioned already, well one anyway, along with another:  SM81, and KSM141.  The SM81 is rated -45dBV/Pa and 16dBA.  The KSM141 is -37dBV/Pa, 14dBA.  How much noisier is the SM81 (assuming a preamp quiet enough to stay well below those ratings) than the KSM141?  2dB, not 8dB, not 10dB.  Test it and see.

If you really need an extremely quiet condenser mic, you need a large diaphragm mic.  That's why I am suspicious of any claim that a small diaphragm mic is really 8dBA.  There are physical laws at play that make such performance difficult, to say the least.



I have to agree with you here Jon. Noise is Noise.. The output of the mic is not a factor in the mics self noise.. It is a factor in the flawed tests that were conducted here. Noise must be measured properly in order to be meaningful I dont have the gear to measure self noise of my mics I dont know to many companies that are my size that have that ability.. Its a very hard measurement to make. These guys are are right in saying that a mic with less sensitivity will need more amplitude to produce the same output level, and that in and of it self will mean that your noise will increase due to the increase in gain. But that's not what self noise is about.

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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #45 on: October 21, 2007, 05:12:53 AM »

I'm sorry, that is wrong. 



Obviously I didn't communicate what I meant particularly well. I'll try to restate it logically, but please correct me if I'm wrong:

Lets assume I have two mics with same noise floor, lets say 12dB,  one with 50mV/Pa sensitivity, the other 40mV/Pa.

At 60dBspl the 50mV/Pa mic has an output of -57.8dBu, the one with 40mV/Pa has an output of -59.75dBu

To match with the output level of the 50mV/Pa mic I need to boost the output of the 40mV/Pa mic by 1.95dB

When I apply gain to the output of the 40mV/Pa mic the level of the entire signal including the noise floor is raised by 1.95dB. The effect is that the apparent noise level of the 40mV/PA sensitivity mic is 1.95dB higher (13.95dB) when it is level matched with the 50mV/Pa. 

This is what I meant when I said low sensitivity exacerbates high self noise.

btw I've used 60dB above as that is pretty typical sound level for nature recordings.

cheers
Paul

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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #46 on: October 21, 2007, 11:32:03 PM »
Thanks for being patient and explaining this!! I was being particularly dense.

cheers
Paul

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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #47 on: October 22, 2007, 01:11:38 PM »


[/quote]

Um you cant do noise measurements like that.. They must be done in a vacuum or in an anechoic chamber.. But not in a "quiet room" and where is your baseline measurement that shows the noise of your preamp? how are you subtracting your self noise of your signal chain?

Chris

[/quote]

Actually the noise measured in a vacuum will be the electrical noise only. There are excellent white papers from B&K and Knowles on condenser mike noise sources freely available on the web. Since a condenser capsule is a reciprocal device you can actually measure the vacuum-state noise by replacing the capsule with an equivalent capacitance. I think Eric did try to calibrate the mike sensitivities out (IIRC he has access to a B&K calibration chamber) and since the low end is usually dominated by the bias resistor/capsule capacitance noise anyway (non-RF mikes) you can get a reasonable measure of the noise with a little care in isolation from 500Hz and up sources. I also don’t think he was trying to create standards quality reference measurements, just a rough comparison for people with no access to the different mikes or equipment. 

In the end it’s a matter of physics, the noise performance of a small 10pF electret is just limited with respect to a 1” externally polarized capsule. The diaphragm stiffness and mechanical loss of the air load will for the most part determine the noise floor at the high end. At least the noise that no amount of circuit sophistry will reduce. It’s silly to argue on noise alone against the Rode. There are excellent nature recordings around made with them, but I can imagine that they are difficult to manage in the field.

BTW I personally think some of the problems people have in comparing mikes for noise is that the sensitivity is measured at a reference frequency and the actual response has dips and peaks right in the same region where the self noise dominates. I could easily see several dB’s of real difference as well as personal perceptual differences.

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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #48 on: October 22, 2007, 07:10:35 PM »
Quote
Another factor to consider specifically for the nature recordist is not to simply go chasing a low noise spec, at least in terms of 1 or 2 dB difference.  Beyond the issues with respect to noise spectrum, it's possible for a manufacturer to manipulate capsule sensitivity and therefore noise rating by changing the bias voltage, for example.  That will affect other factors as well, perhaps to the detriment of the other requirements for the application.

Possibly a dumb question, but does the frequency response of a mic have any impact on the self-noise? The reason I ask is I've been looking at the Sennheiser ME66 and MKH416. The according to the specs the 416 has a 3dB higher noise floor, but the ME66 has a significant LF roll off below something like 650-750Hz whereas the 416 is flat down to about 150Hz, so I was wondering if the earlier LF roll off flatters the ME66 in terms of self-noise .

cheers
Paul

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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #49 on: October 22, 2007, 09:18:26 PM »



Um you cant do noise measurements like that.. They must be done in a vacuum or in an anechoic chamber.. But not in a "quiet room" and where is your baseline measurement that shows the noise of your preamp? how are you subtracting your self noise of your signal chain?

Chris

[/quote]

Actually the noise measured in a vacuum will be the electrical noise only. There are excellent white papers from B&K and Knowles on condenser mike noise sources freely available on the web. Since a condenser capsule is a reciprocal device you can actually measure the vacuum-state noise by replacing the capsule with an equivalent capacitance. I think Eric did try to calibrate the mike sensitivities out (IIRC he has access to a B&K calibration chamber) and since the low end is usually dominated by the bias resistor/capsule capacitance noise anyway (non-RF mikes) you can get a reasonable measure of the noise with a little care in isolation from 500Hz and up sources. I also don’t think he was trying to create standards quality reference measurements, just a rough comparison for people with no access to the different mikes or equipment. 

In the end it’s a matter of physics, the noise performance of a small 10pF electret is just limited with respect to a 1” externally polarized capsule. The diaphragm stiffness and mechanical loss of the air load will for the most part determine the noise floor at the high end. At least the noise that no amount of circuit sophistry will reduce. It’s silly to argue on noise alone against the Rode. There are excellent nature recordings around made with them, but I can imagine that they are difficult to manage in the field.

BTW I personally think some of the problems people have in comparing mikes for noise is that the sensitivity is measured at a reference frequency and the actual response has dips and peaks right in the same region where the self noise dominates. I could easily see several dB’s of real difference as well as personal perceptual differences.

[/quote]

To do real noise measurements you need a real chamber there is no way around that. There is a huge difference between a capacitor and a diaphragm of a mic. Electronically speaking they are the same but there are many other factors besides just replacing the diaphragm for a cap and calling it a day.. The huge problem here is that unless you have a calibrated cap for each mic and you can "unscrew" the diaphragm from the preamp, Not always the case then how can you do a real noise measurement in a nonanabolic environment?

Chris
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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #50 on: October 22, 2007, 10:59:00 PM »
Chris,

No disrespect intended to you at all but the physics of microphones has been dealt with extensively in the literature. B&K in particular covers the substitution of real capacitance for diaphragm capacitance in noise measurements. This is not rocket science, but as another poster suggested simply converting mV/Pa to nV/Root-Hertz is so far beyond  the average consumers grasp that hardcore technical discussions are hopelessly over the heads of just about anyone in earshot.

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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #51 on: October 23, 2007, 01:06:26 AM »
Chris,

No disrespect intended to you at all but the physics of microphones has been dealt with extensively in the literature. B&K in particular covers the substitution of real capacitance for diaphragm capacitance in noise measurements. This is not rocket science, but as another poster suggested simply converting mV/Pa to nV/Root-Hertz is so far beyond  the average consumers grasp that hardcore technical discussions are hopelessly over the heads of just about anyone in earshot.

Its ok. I dont think you get my point.. When you have a known mic with a known capacitance. You can substitute it. But when your testing a ECM 8000 how do you know what the capacitance of the diaphragm is so how can you do an accurate noise measurement? You cant.. The test setup works for B&K mics because they know what the capacitance of the diaphragm is.. But when your just a small little lab its very hard to do these measurements with any kind of accuracy.

That was my point. So some of the easy tests to do would be an anechoic chamber or a vacuum.

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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #52 on: October 26, 2007, 12:17:19 PM »
Possibly a dumb question, but does the frequency response of a mic have any impact on the self-noise? The reason I ask is I've been looking at the Sennheiser ME66 and MKH416. The according to the specs the 416 has a 3dB higher noise floor, but the ME66 has a significant LF roll off below something like 650-750Hz whereas the 416 is flat down to about 150Hz, so I was wondering if the earlier LF roll off flatters the ME66 in terms of self-noise .

The ME66 is a semi-pro gun mic. and is very good for wildlife recording.

The slightly drooping bass end will help to minimise wind noise.

For Wildlife recording you may find the website of the Wildlife Sound Recording Society useful.

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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #53 on: October 29, 2007, 08:06:57 PM »
I've been getting good results with AT-3032 omni's. The members of the naturerecordists group have found they have significantly lower self noise than manufacturers specs.

Cheers
Paul

I just bought a pair, looking forward to experimenting ... so I excitedly tell my wife about them and she looks up from her book and said 'that's nice dear' and goes back to reading :)
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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #55 on: October 29, 2007, 10:06:55 PM »
Take a look at the Shure WL183 lavs.

Info here:

http://www.uwm.edu/~type/audio-reports/Shure-WL183s/index.htm
http://www.shure.com/ProAudio/Products/WiredMicrophones/us_pro_WL183_content
http://www.rockscallop.org/how/183/183mount01.html

Great mics for nature stuff and well within your budget.

ac

Yes I had been reading about those, I was thinking of buying a pair, but wanted to check for compatability with the phantom in my MixPre, I suspect the voltage was going to be a little high from that...haven't checked into it yet. I definitely like the form factor...

digifish
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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #56 on: October 29, 2007, 10:29:53 PM »
Take a look at the Shure WL183 lavs.

Info here:

http://www.uwm.edu/~type/audio-reports/Shure-WL183s/index.htm
http://www.shure.com/ProAudio/Products/WiredMicrophones/us_pro_WL183_content
http://www.rockscallop.org/how/183/183mount01.html

Great mics for nature stuff and well within your budget.

ac

Yes I had been reading about those, I was thinking of buying a pair, but wanted to check for compatability with the phantom in my MixPre, I suspect the voltage was going to be a little high from that...haven't checked into it yet. I definitely like the form factor...

digifish

These microphones have HORRIBLE let me say this again HORRIBLE bass response.. And not very good over all frequency response... But if you like that AM radio sound they should be ok :)

Sorry I had a pair for testing and they sounded like someone put them in a toilet...
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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #57 on: October 29, 2007, 10:32:37 PM »

These microphones have HORRIBLE let me say this again HORRIBLE bass response.. And not very good over all frequency response... But if you like that AM radio sound they should be ok :)

Sorry I had a pair for testing and they sounded like someone put them in a toilet...


That's interesting as it is at complete odds with the field-recordists forums, where the demo recordings sound great, were you recording ambient sounds or rock-concerts?

digifish
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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #58 on: October 30, 2007, 01:45:32 AM »

These microphones have HORRIBLE let me say this again HORRIBLE bass response.. And not very good over all frequency response... But if you like that AM radio sound they should be ok :)

Sorry I had a pair for testing and they sounded like someone put them in a toilet...


That's interesting as it is at complete odds with the field-recordists forums, where the demo recordings sound great, were you recording ambient sounds or rock-concerts?

digifish

No I was measuring them in my lab and comparing them to $3 Panasonic capsules.. AND the Panasonic capsules blew away these mics.. The suck... I am sorry I just dont want to see you waste your money. And I am not NOT trying to sell you something.. The simple fact is I dont have a extremely low noise pair of omni mics to sell you anyway..... But really I found them to be bad sounding mics.. They are designed for a lav mic for voice.. And even for that they are awful.. this is just my opinion. And you know what we say about them dont you :) But I just wanted to maybe warn you.. that's all.



I really feel you could buy some cheap Panasonic capsules and do a better job then these mics would do.

Chris
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Offline spzkt

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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #59 on: October 30, 2007, 05:27:39 AM »
I just bought a pair, looking forward to experimenting ... so I excitedly tell my wife about them and she looks up from her book and said 'that's nice dear' and goes back to reading :)

why do they always do that??  ::)

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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #60 on: October 30, 2007, 06:06:26 AM »
That wasn't my experience at all. These mics have an excellent top end. It's true they are bass light, but nothing extreme.

I wonder if you got a dodgy pair? Many many nature records have been using these for a while and find them very good quality.

digifish - they have a max of 9v power I believe, so you can't phantom power them. I built a mini-XLR->3.5 battery box for mine.

ac

Take a look at the Shure WL183 lavs.

Info here:

http://www.uwm.edu/~type/audio-reports/Shure-WL183s/index.htm
http://www.shure.com/ProAudio/Products/WiredMicrophones/us_pro_WL183_content
http://www.rockscallop.org/how/183/183mount01.html

Great mics for nature stuff and well within your budget.

ac

Yes I had been reading about those, I was thinking of buying a pair, but wanted to check for compatability with the phantom in my MixPre, I suspect the voltage was going to be a little high from that...haven't checked into it yet. I definitely like the form factor...

digifish

These microphones have HORRIBLE let me say this again HORRIBLE bass response.. And not very good over all frequency response... But if you like that AM radio sound they should be ok :)

Sorry I had a pair for testing and they sounded like someone put them in a toilet...


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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #61 on: October 30, 2007, 06:09:46 AM »
That's so strange! I found that mine piss all over the various Panasonic-based mics i have. I seriously think you got a dodgy pair!!

One mans's trash is another man's treasure...


These microphones have HORRIBLE let me say this again HORRIBLE bass response.. And not very good over all frequency response... But if you like that AM radio sound they should be ok :)

Sorry I had a pair for testing and they sounded like someone put them in a toilet...


That's interesting as it is at complete odds with the field-recordists forums, where the demo recordings sound great, were you recording ambient sounds or rock-concerts?

digifish

No I was measuring them in my lab and comparing them to $3 Panasonic capsules.. AND the Panasonic capsules blew away these mics.. The suck... I am sorry I just dont want to see you waste your money. And I am not NOT trying to sell you something.. The simple fact is I dont have a extremely low noise pair of omni mics to sell you anyway..... But really I found them to be bad sounding mics.. They are designed for a lav mic for voice.. And even for that they are awful.. this is just my opinion. And you know what we say about them dont you :) But I just wanted to maybe warn you.. that's all.



I really feel you could buy some cheap Panasonic capsules and do a better job then these mics would do.

Chris



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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #62 on: October 30, 2007, 09:59:39 AM »
That's so strange! I found that mine piss all over the various Panasonic-based mics i have. I seriously think you got a dodgy pair!!

One mans's trash is another man's treasure...


These microphones have HORRIBLE let me say this again HORRIBLE bass response.. And not very good over all frequency response... But if you like that AM radio sound they should be ok :)

Sorry I had a pair for testing and they sounded like someone put them in a toilet...


That's interesting as it is at complete odds with the field-recordists forums, where the demo recordings sound great, were you recording ambient sounds or rock-concerts?

digifish

No I was measuring them in my lab and comparing them to $3 Panasonic capsules.. AND the Panasonic capsules blew away these mics.. The suck... I am sorry I just dont want to see you waste your money. And I am not NOT trying to sell you something.. The simple fact is I dont have a extremely low noise pair of omni mics to sell you anyway..... But really I found them to be bad sounding mics.. They are designed for a lav mic for voice.. And even for that they are awful.. this is just my opinion. And you know what we say about them dont you :) But I just wanted to maybe warn you.. that's all.



I really feel you could buy some cheap Panasonic capsules and do a better job then these mics would do.

Chris




The specs confirm my testing.. And at 17khz they were down 5 db from flat.
Frequency Response
50 to 17,000 Hz

IMHO the top end response is poor.. and the low end response is also poor... They do not give you any noise specs.. That makes me think they might not be great... But really the specs are not good and my testing was not positive ether. I did not have a bad pair both mics were brand new out of the box and the serial numbers were off by 100's of digits I also found that they overloaded quite easily.. Not an issue here, but was a major issue was the fact that they were 10db apart from each other but still had the same BAD response curves when corrected for the 10db difference.. It seems to me the tolerance of this product is nowhere near as tight as AKG, DPA, OR SENNNHIESER.
  so you can end up with a pair of mics that are not matched how do you capture an accurate sound field recording when your using mics that dont match up?

I would think for nature recording you would want something that would go up to at least 20k... But most of the nature recording guys are pretty old.. I guess the guys that are using these mics cant tell the difference.. I still can   :P
Ps.. remember you need to capture low end as well as high end in order to make a faithful recording of an environment.....

« Last Edit: October 30, 2007, 10:04:33 AM by Church-Audio »
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Offline digifish_music

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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #63 on: October 30, 2007, 06:37:33 PM »
I would think for nature recording you would want something that would go up to at least 20k

...

Ps.. remember you need to capture low end as well as high end in order to make a faithful recording of an environment....

20 kHz? Actually no, there is very little above 16 kHz in natural sounds that adds much if anything to the recording. Bats and some birds perhaps, but even then you would need to be critically listening with good gear under well controlled conditions.

Low frequencies, actually field recordings often come out with far too much rumble/low-end for a 'natural' balance, high pass filtering is almost always a good thing here too.

digifish
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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #64 on: October 30, 2007, 09:37:29 PM »
They do distort easily. But that's rarely a problem in ambient / nature recording. I wouldn't recommend them for record gigs. I guess different strokes for different folks.

ac




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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #65 on: October 30, 2007, 11:54:22 PM »

I would think for nature recording you would want something that would go up to at least 20k... But most of the nature recording guys are pretty old.. I guess the guys that are using these mics cant tell the difference.. I still can   :P
Ps.. remember you need to capture low end as well as high end in order to make a faithful recording of an environment.....


The WL183 were discussed on the nature recordists list in terms of a CHEAP solution for stealthable recording. The pic of Dan Dugan's rig was you've appended was part of the experimentation that was done with these mics to see what they were capable of. There was no suggestion these were anything than a cheap option to explore.

most ambient recordings are done with a hpf at 80 to 100hz or higher, and there aren't huge amounts of naturally occurring sounds above 16 or 17Khz. so the w183 specs are probably adequate for a lot of tasks. The WL183's aren't particularly quite but the results don't sound bad:

http://www.rockscallop.org/JVp2.html

http://www.dandugan.com/downloads/French_Gulch_Hotel_Frogs.mp3
http://www.dandugan.com/downloads/Joshua%20Tree%202%20samples/01_49_Palms_frogs-rain-jet.mp3

The recordings towards the bottom of Curt Olson's page - the ones towards the top are done with AT3032's discussed earlier in the thread:

http://www.trackseventeen.com/soundscapes/

and btw take a peep at these:

http://www.dandugan.com/
http://svconline.com/mag/avinstall_av_industry_icons/
« Last Edit: October 31, 2007, 01:11:35 AM by spzkt »

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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #66 on: October 31, 2007, 02:48:23 AM »
A field with scores of socializing birds (for example) WILL have need for wide high frequency recording bandwidth at least to 20K.  Other complex ambient sounds also may require bandwidths exceeding 16K Hz even though individual sounds inside that ambient have much lower frequency content.

Same thing applies to Video Bandwidth as if you have ONLY one simple image (like one person) to show, then video bandwidth can be most modest, but showing an image of the 'class of 2007' with hundreds of people inside the frame' requires much wider bandwidth to maintain resolution of details of same one person, and all the others competing for recorded detail.

Similar stuff happens with audio as bandwidth to record a solo instrument like an oboe, violin, or cello can be modest, but record a piano playing complex cords (many strings at work), or a full orchestra of simple instruments all playing together and the bandwidth requirement to record all this simultaneous sound in best manner far exceeds the human ability of 20K Hz.

I have a simple recording of piano/violin concert done with DSM mics/preamp at 10 foot distance showing significant recorded information (mostly from the violin) exceeding 35,000 Hz at times. 
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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #67 on: October 31, 2007, 04:00:58 AM »
A field with scores of socializing birds (for example) WILL have need for wide high frequency recording bandwidth at least to 20K.  Other complex ambient sounds also may require bandwidths exceeding 16K Hz even though individual sounds inside that ambient have much lower frequency content.

...


We are on different wavelengths, I was talking about the resulting listening experience, not the actual frequencies present.

If you think ultrasound is important you may like to read this...

http://world.std.com/~griesngr/

particularly...

http://world.std.com/~griesngr/intermod.ppt

digifish
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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #68 on: October 31, 2007, 06:56:31 AM »
A field with scores of socializing birds (for example) WILL have need for wide high frequency recording bandwidth at least to 20K.  Other complex ambient sounds also may require bandwidths exceeding 16K Hz even though individual sounds inside that ambient have much lower frequency content.

...


We are on different wavelengths, I was talking about the resulting listening experience, not the actual frequencies present.

If you think ultrasound is important you may like to read this...

http://world.std.com/~griesngr/

particularly...

http://world.std.com/~griesngr/intermod.ppt

digifish


It looks like your looking for an argument.. Unfortunately sound is subjective.. But I WILL say this.. I have tested these mics and found them wanting... They in my opinion SUCK. I would not use them to mic a fart.

But that's just one mans opinion but before you just write me off. I build mics for a living I listen to mics for a living I have been a sound engineer now for over 20 years. And worked with some of the best microphones in the world.. I am not NOT trying to sell you something..

I dont think you can say that these mics are great because you have heard a sample.. If you dont have a reference to compair it too... Now you might be able to say hey.. These sounded good to my ears.. But with out having a real mic in the same space and time recording the same event.. How do you really know what the quality of the capture really is?

And I strongly disagree with you about anything past 17k being of any importance to nature recording.. LOL Harmonics above and below 20khz are being effected when your mics dont go that high.. So your capture is not as good as it could be. That's the bottom line.. And for the price of these mics there are a lot of mics that would be better. But again.. that's one mans opinion.

Just remember we cant all be wrong.. And just because a bunch of people are using them does not make them a good mic. Lots of people still think a  Beta 58 is a good vocal mic.. but most sound man have come around to realizing they are not. One last bit of advice.. If there is anything I have learned in the last 20+ years its this.. Don't believe everything you read....

To quote you "We are on different wavelengths, I was talking about the resulting listening experience, not the actual frequencies present."

excuse me.. But aren't these one and the same? I mean sure you can have a mic that sounds ok with a frequency response of 200hz to 14k but wouldn't you rather have one that works from 20hz to 20khz and just use a high pass filter on it? so you can make up your own mind as to what low end you need for a given situation? instead of having the mic dictate that to you? Just my opinion.



Chris



« Last Edit: October 31, 2007, 07:03:10 AM by Church-Audio »
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Offline digifish_music

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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #69 on: October 31, 2007, 07:21:49 AM »
excuse me.. But aren't these one and the same? I mean sure you can have a mic that sounds ok with a frequency response of 200hz to 14k but wouldn't you rather have one that works from 20hz to 20khz and just use a high pass filter on it? so you can make up your own mind as to what low end you need for a given situation? instead of having the mic dictate that to you? Just my opinion.

No they are not the same. I am also not advocating deliberately selecting a mic with a limited bandwidth, but I am experienced enough from music production side of things to know the <40 and >16 kHz components of the mix have negligible impact on the perceived quality of a track.

I also know that there is no evidence from any well conducted study that humans can hear ultrasound

I don't know anything about the mics in question, except the recordings that I have heard sound great.

So here is an example I recorded just the other day...



Top spectral analysis shows the effects if filtering outside 40-16 kHz

Filtered field recording

The bottom spectral analysis shows the original recording of 20-20 kHz

Original field recording

Now...not exactly what I would call a startling difference

Here's the filtered components in isolation for the interested...



You can download the file below, crank the volume and really hear what <40 and >16 kHz sounds like...

Filtered components

digifish
« Last Edit: October 31, 2007, 08:25:23 AM by digifish_music »
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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #70 on: October 31, 2007, 03:40:34 PM »
A field with scores of socializing birds (for example) WILL have need for wide high frequency recording bandwidth at least to 20K.  Other complex ambient sounds also may require bandwidths exceeding 16K Hz even though individual sounds inside that ambient have much lower frequency content.

...


We are on different wavelengths, I was talking about the resulting listening experience, not the actual frequencies present.

If you think ultrasound is important you may like to read this...

http://world.std.com/~griesngr/

particularly...

http://world.std.com/~griesngr/intermod.ppt

digifish


Reference page as a ton of research topics, but unless I missed something, no direct arguments against extended recording bandwidth. 

The 'power point' page on inter-modulation (I think) was not looked at as I have an allergic reaction to such presentations, especially in file form, so maybe you can explain what you found as in this as technically against high bandwidth margins for complex sound recordings in a concise manner?

BTW how did you 'hack into' your profile to never show an increase in posting after first 63 posts even though you show being a member since sometime in 2006 and have posted in this thread several times with no post # change?  This might be most handy for blocking tickets, maybe looking forever like a newer member with 'cleaner' record than might otherwise be credited to your screen name.  Care to comment?
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Offline digifish_music

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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #71 on: October 31, 2007, 08:10:55 PM »

http://world.std.com/~griesngr/intermod.ppt

The 'power point' page on inter-modulation (I think) was not looked at as I have an allergic reaction to such presentations, especially in file form, so maybe you can explain what you found as in this as technically against high bandwidth margins for complex sound recordings in a concise manner?

BTW how did you 'hack into' your profile to never show an increase in posting after first 63 posts even though you show being a member since sometime in 2006 and have posted in this thread several times with no post # change?  This might be most handy for blocking tickets, maybe looking forever like a newer member with 'cleaner' record than might otherwise be credited to your screen name.  Care to comment?


PPT conclusions...

Conclusions -

1. Adding ultrasonics to a recording technique does not improve time resolution of typical signals – either for imaging or precision of tempo. The presumption that it does is based on a misunderstanding of both information theory and human physiology.

2. Karou and Shogo have shown that ultrasonic harmonics of a 2kHz signal are NOT audible in the absence of external (non-human) intermodulation distortion. This BTW: means they can't be heard in the real world and that filtering them from the recording is a good thing as they can only do harm.

Again BTW I will note that I am not advocating limiting your mics to less than 20hz-20kHz. However if your mic droops 6 dB at 18 Khz I would not be concerned. My observation from years of mixing and producing music is that <40 and > 16 kHz just doesn't add anything *dramatic* to the recording. Unless of course you are using the <40 Hz to drive sub-sonic subs for the mechanical vibration effects.

My demonstration above shows that to be so. Just listen to the filtered component in isolation...

3. Their experiments put a limit on the possibility that a physiological non-linearity can make ultrasonic harmonics perceptible. They find that such a non-linearity does not exist at ultrasonic sound pressure levels below 80dB.

4. All commercial recordings tested by the author as of 6/1/03 contained either no ultrasonic information, or ultrasonic harmonics at levels more than 40dB below the fundamentals.

5. Our experiments suggest that the most important source of audible intermodulation for ultrasonics is the electronics, not in the transducers.
Some consumer grade equipment makes a tacit admission of the inaudibility of frequencies above 22kHz by simply not reproducing them. Yet the advertising for these products claims the benefits of “higher resolution.”

6. Even assuming ultrasonics are audible, loudspeaker directivity creates an unusually tiny sweet spot, both horizontally and vertically

About my profile, I didn't hack anything, you are just paranoid :)

digifish

« Last Edit: November 01, 2007, 01:30:29 AM by digifish_music »
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Re: Mic Suggestions for nature work - Low Noise, < $1000 USD.
« Reply #72 on: November 01, 2007, 02:47:17 AM »

http://world.std.com/~griesngr/intermod.ppt

The 'power point' page on inter-modulation (I think) was not looked at as I have an allergic reaction to such presentations, especially in file form, so maybe you can explain what you found as in this as technically against high bandwidth margins for complex sound recordings in a concise manner?

BTW how did you 'hack into' your profile to never show an increase in posting after first 63 posts even though you show being a member since sometime in 2006 and have posted in this thread several times with no post # change?  This might be most handy for blocking tickets, maybe looking forever like a newer member with 'cleaner' record than might otherwise be credited to your screen name.  Care to comment?


PPT conclusions...

Conclusions -

1. Adding ultrasonics to a recording technique does not improve time resolution of typical signals – either for imaging or precision of tempo. The presumption that it does is based on a misunderstanding of both information theory and human physiology.

2. Karou and Shogo have shown that ultrasonic harmonics of a 2kHz signal are NOT audible in the absence of external (non-human) intermodulation distortion. This BTW: means they can't be heard in the real world and that filtering them from the recording is a good thing as they can only do harm.

Again BTW I will note that I am not advocating limiting your mics to less than 20hz-20kHz. However if your mic droops 6 dB at 18 Khz I would not be concerned. My observation from years of mixing and producing music is that <40 and > 16 kHz just doesn't add anything *dramatic* to the recording. Unless of course you are using the <40 Hz to drive sub-sonic subs for the mechanical vibration effects.

My demonstration above shows that to be so. Just listen to the filtered component in isolation...

3. Their experiments put a limit on the possibility that a physiological non-linearity can make ultrasonic harmonics perceptible. They find that such a non-linearity does not exist at ultrasonic sound pressure levels below 80dB.

4. All commercial recordings tested by the author as of 6/1/03 contained either no ultrasonic information, or ultrasonic harmonics at levels more than 40dB below the fundamentals.

5. Our experiments suggest that the most important source of audible intermodulation for ultrasonics is the electronics, not in the transducers.
Some consumer grade equipment makes a tacit admission of the inaudibility of frequencies above 22kHz by simply not reproducing them. Yet the advertising for these products claims the benefits of “higher resolution.”

6. Even assuming ultrasonics are audible, loudspeaker directivity creates an unusually tiny sweet spot, both horizontally and vertically

About my profile, I didn't hack anything, you are just paranoid :)

digifish



Thank you for taking time to post a very concise PPT summary. 

More possible fuel for your argument against audible benefit of higher frequencies contained in an AES submitted paper summary quoted in a recent post by WifiJeff in thread:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=dc5cb19c3eae03a2a98a47d2a8b6b290&topic=80529.msg1246887;topicseen

PARTIAL QUOTE:

"Incontrovertible double-blind listening tests prove that the original 16-bit/44.1-kHz CD standard yields exactly the same two-channel sound quality as the SACD and DVD-A technologies.


In the September 2007 issue of the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society (Volume 55, Number 9), two veteran audio journalists who aren’t professional engineers, E. Brad Meyer and David R. Moran, present a breakthrough paper that contradicts all previous inputs by the engineering community. They prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, with literally hundreds of double-blind listening tests at matched levels, conducted over a period of more than a year, that the two-channel analog output of a high-end SACD/DVD-A player undergoes no audible change when passed through a 16-bit/44.1-kHz A/D/A processor. That means there’s no audible difference between the original CD standard (“Red Book”) and 24-bit/192-kHz PCM or 1-bit/2.8442-MHz DSD."
 ...... MORE IN POST......

So you are not alone with such conclusions argued in most recent technical literature.

However, it does seem that tests with stated intention to prove something usually succeed in providing clear evidence making their point.  In the past such test were designed to prove the opposite pro-wider bandwidth argument and seemed to also succeed.

Maybe both arguments hold same amount of truth depending on specific testing condition details, personal perspectives/biases, and real-world live vs. studio multi-track sound recording listening experiences.


In regards to: "About my profile, I didn't hack anything, you are just paranoid :) "  My profile reported by two moderators to maybe been hacked as posts of 'way off my usual posted color' with porn images/links needed deleting on at least one occasion recently, and my signons are often detoured to show "odd images," and/or other members profiles instead of usual sign-on screen.  I've been offered a new account if this continues.  Found changing password not changing occasional detour events.  Yes, maybe a bit paranoid, but also having good reason to be more suspicious than my usual.  Sorry to question your low post count as being odd.
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