Topic: Confused: Beyerdynamic MC930 vs CK930

[Popmarter]

Hi, looking to upgrade my (stealth)rig with maybe some Beyer Dynamics.

I listened to recordings made with MC930. Can those be in any way compared to the CK930 (cards and active) mics?

http://www.studio-guys.nl/microphones-condensers-small-membrane-c-129_161.html

Correct me if i am wrong, but these CK930 are twice the price? (you need 2 right?) CK930 would suite my wish for stealth mics more than MC930 as they are smaller.

Hope someone can tell me which mics are better for my situation.

[TNJazz]

Hi, looking to upgrade my (stealth)rig with maybe some Beyer Dynamics.

I listened to recordings made with MC930. Can those be in any way compared to the CK930 (cards and active) mics?

http://www.studio-guys.nl/microphones-condensers-small-membrane-c-129_161.html

Correct me if i am wrong, but these CK930 are twice the price? (you need 2 right?) CK930 would suite my wish for stealth mics more than MC930 as they are smaller.

Hope someone can tell me which mics are better for my situation.

yes they are essentially the same, yes they are twice the price and yes you would need 2.

The only real difference is the CK model allows separation of capsule from the body by means of a remote cable.

[illconditioned]

Hi, looking to upgrade my (stealth)rig with maybe some Beyer Dynamics.

I listened to recordings made with MC930. Can those be in any way compared to the CK930 (cards and active) mics?

http://www.studio-guys.nl/microphones-condensers-small-membrane-c-129_161.html

Correct me if i am wrong, but these CK930 are twice the price? (you need 2 right?) CK930 would suite my wish for stealth mics more than MC930 as they are smaller.

Hope someone can tell me which mics are better for my situation.

Yeah, the CK930 are more expensive.  Also, MC930 stereo set is matched, and comes with shocks, windscreens, etc.

I've got the MC930 set and am very happy with it.  Others may disagree, but for me this was  the right choice.  I will use another setup for stealth taping anyway, so the compactness of the CK930 is not worth the extra.  I would recommend the CK930 in cases where you are either stealth recording, or where you need to get way up front or in the line of sight, eg., for a rig installed or clamped way up close to the stage.

  Richard

[Popmarter]

Thanks a lot for clearing that up! 

Apart from the sound, these ck930 mics seems interesting because I 'might' could do without some sort of preamp. I noticed rigs putting CK930 straight into a Marantz660/661 or edirol R4.

Do you agree, or will I probably need a pre still?

I have not decided yet on a recorder, but i tend to go for Marantz 660/661 or anything with a reported good preamp. Will it work good with a Edirol r9 aswell?

[TNJazz]

660/661 and R4 have built in preamps, so yes they would be fine.

R09 does not, so no - you will need some sort of preamp or battery box to supply power to the microphones.

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R09 does not, so no - you will need some sort of preamp or battery box to supply power to the microphones.

On that note, to the OP:

don't forget about the bodies. Many of us won't care as we aren't stealth taping so concealing gear isn't as big of an issue, but in this case if you can gain some space it might be of interest. You're going to end up doing mic caps > bodies > recorder w/ Phantom power or caps > bodies > pre-amp > recorder without power. You can do caps > special pre-amp > recorder and knock out the bodies, but few pre-amps can do this and it's not without a price. Talk to Jon (user mshilarious here) about his box/pre-amp for a set of beyer ck9xx caps which I think is the cheapest option that will (a "lemosax" will as well if you are careful about the cable wiring.)

[Popmarter]

Allright, let me see if i get this, these CK930, don't have bodies right?

http://www.thomann.de/nl/beyerdynamic_ck_930_3_8_set.htm and http://europe.beyerdynamic.com/shop/mp/microphones/vocals-and-instruments/drums/ck-930-3-8-set.html

Quote:
BEYERDYNAMIC CK 930 3/8"-Set, real condenser microphone with separate preamp, cardioid, 40 - 20.000 Hz, switchable Pad -15 dB, switchable Low Cut on 250 Hz, different application possible as speach, Studio-instrumental application, hanging microphone with many different accessoires, 140 dB SPL max., length of cable 3 meter, Set contains CK 930 condenser capsule, CV 900 preamp, cable MVK 900 and clamp MVK 900.

I am hoping that i put this straight into a Marantz/Edirol type recorder and off we go.. (option 1)

Or, put it in a preamp and then to a Edirol r9 (smaller recorder without preamp in general) (option 2)

Option 3 is the MC930, but not really an option as stealthing will be primairy use.

When these are the correct options, the obvious next search for me will be for preamps. To see if a preamp will add quality and/or knock off some of the total price (cheap recorder + preamp = price of a Marantz..), all in relation to the 'comfort' while stealthtaping - less stuff is better

Thanks a lot sofar 

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Allright, let me see if i get this, these CK930, don't have bodies right?

Those come w/ bodies (cv900) (as expected)

But yes, order 2 and youll be ready as per your options stated.

[TNJazz]

To see if a preamp will add quality and/or knock off some of the total price (cheap recorder + preamp = price of a Marantz..)

A good preamp will add significant quality, but it will most definitely not DROP the price.  If you're low-pro/stealth almost always I would look into getting a 661 and just do a simple CK930->661 rig.  Small, lightweight and it will sound nice.  Stock preamps are not bad on the 661, and you can always look into getting the deck modded by Doug Oade or Busman later on if you feel they are lacking.

If it were me I would go the "all in one" route, particularly for ease and convenience.

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To see if a preamp will add quality and/or knock off some of the total price (cheap recorder + preamp = price of a Marantz..)

A good preamp will add significant quality, but it will most definitely not DROP the price.  If you're low-pro/stealth almost always I would look into getting a 661 and just do a simple CK930->661 rig.  Small, lightweight and it will sound nice.  Stock preamps are not bad on the 661, and you can always look into getting the deck modded by Doug Oade or Busman later on if you feel they are lacking.

If it were me I would go the "all in one" route, particularly for ease and convenience.

I think Jason does that a lot, I can't remember if his is modded or not, but he's happy with the setup.

If the measurements of the 661 plus about 4"x2"x1" (two bodies side by side) is too much, than the tinybox is the next option, say, maybe with an M10 or R09? If you get a recorder which isn't "professional" make sure you keep the output in mind (aprox 32 mv/pa); some recorders overload earlier than others, and I don't use much gain on my 722 which takes a hot signal. The M10 should be fine, but I can't remember what the limits are on the R09HR (you may not need any gain, just power).

[JasonSobel]

To see if a preamp will add quality and/or knock off some of the total price (cheap recorder + preamp = price of a Marantz..)

A good preamp will add significant quality, but it will most definitely not DROP the price.  If you're low-pro/stealth almost always I would look into getting a 661 and just do a simple CK930->661 rig.  Small, lightweight and it will sound nice.  Stock preamps are not bad on the 661, and you can always look into getting the deck modded by Doug Oade or Busman later on if you feel they are lacking.

If it were me I would go the "all in one" route, particularly for ease and convenience.

I think Jason does that a lot, I can't remember if his is modded or not, but he's happy with the setup.

If the measurements of the 661 plus about 4"x2"x1" (two bodies side by side) is too much, than the tinybox is the next option, say, maybe with an M10 or R09? If you get a recorder which isn't "professional" make sure you keep the output in mind (aprox 32 mv/pa); some recorders overload earlier than others, and I don't use much gain on my 722 which takes a hot signal. The M10 should be fine, but I can't remember what the limits are on the R09HR (you may not need any gain, just power).

Yes, I do run my CK930's (with mic bodies), directly into the Marantz PMD-661 (and mine has the Oade Concert mod).  In general, I'm very happy with the setup.  It sounds great, is nice and compact, and I don't have a lot of extra boxes/interconnects/etc in the bag.  While I'm very happy with the setup, I do prefer to use an external pre-amp.  For "big shows" (aka Phish), I'm lucky that there are many tapers in the Boston area that will let me borrow gear.  I've now run the CK930's with V3 > AD2K, with just a V3, and with a Sonosax SX-M2.  All have sounded great, and IMO "better" than just the internal PMD-661.  but I do think that the differences are relatively minor, and I'm very happy with the CK930 > PMD-661 combo.  Look for examples from 2009-2010 in the Club d'Elf section of the Live Music Archive.

one other consideration that hasn't been talked about is battery life.  Using 4 internal NiMH AA's on the PMD-661, with phantom power, I get around 4 hours of runtime, which is plenty for any normal show.  but if you do festivals or need more runtime, you might want to consider a littlebox or tinybox, or some external pre-amp that can provide +12 or +20V phantom power.  The CK930's will take anything from +12 - +48 V, and when running portable gear, it is certainly more effecient (i.e. you'll get longer run times) if you can run at lower voltages.  And the performance of the CK930's won't suffer at all.

[Todd R]

Yeah, I was just going to mention the Naiant tinybox.  If it sounds anything like the littlebox (I'm sure it does), it will sound very good, and it is very small and inexpensive.  Tinybox for under $200 and Sony M10 for ~$220 will be less than a 661 and will be much smaller as well. 

I can't argue that in stealth situations it might be easier to be running only one box, but the tinybox+m10 combo would be smaller and cheaper, and my bet would sound better, or at least as good (unless you get the Oade mod for the 661 -- which is probably a good option for the price).  Plus if you get the ck930's, iirc I think you can get the tinybox set up to provide capsule polarization and allow you to skip the mic bodies entirely.

[page]

Plus if you get the ck930's, iirc I think you can get the tinybox set up to provide capsule polarization and allow you to skip the mic bodies entirely.

If I was getting a tinybox for mine, it's the only way I'd want to run it. To me, it's not a feature, it's the feature. 

[Popmarter]

Thanks a lot for the responses, it is really gonna be a choice between 'big and easy' and 'small and hassle'

1. CK930 3/8 Set + PMD 661

or, suggested

2. Ck930 3/8 Set + Naiant tinybox + Sony M10

I am located in Europe, so i can't go for the Oade mods (atleast, it will cost more, alternative shipment etc.). In reading the comments there is no real need too anyway (yet). With that in mind now, i feel most for the big and easy route.

Few extra questions:
I might be able to get a PMD 670 secondhand for nice price? Would that be a wise decision (PMD 670 instead of 661), especially for this situation? PMD670 is bigger, but smaller and the levels look like they are on a better place, for stealthtapers that is.

I asked Jon from Naiant for more info. Thanks for pointing to him. Is the Denecke PS2 an alternative?


Quote:
"I think you can get the tinybox set up to provide capsule polarization and allow you to skip the mic bodies entirely".

What?? What is capsule polarization?
What mic bodies? You mean the CV 900 preamp that is at the end of the cable? Can you take those off? 

[JasonSobel]

Quote:
"I think you can get the tinybox set up to provide capsule polarization and allow you to skip the mic bodies entirely".

What?? What is capsule polarization?
What mic bodies? You mean the CV 900 preamp that is at the end of the cable? Can you take those off? 

the mic bodies that I mentioned refer to the CV 900 pre-amp.  The tinybox (or the littlebox) can provide +48 polarization voltage to power the CK930 caps directly.  With that setup, you wouldn't need the CV900 mic bodies.

[page]

Quote:
"I think you can get the tinybox set up to provide capsule polarization and allow you to skip the mic bodies entirely".

What?? What is capsule polarization?
What mic bodies? You mean the CV 900 preamp that is at the end of the cable? Can you take those off? 

the mic bodies that I mentioned refer to the CV 900 pre-amp.  The tinybox (or the littlebox) can provide +48 polarization voltage to power the CK930 caps directly.  With that setup, you wouldn't need the CV900 mic bodies.

Jason beat me to it.

In my mind, the current choice is:

ck930 > cable > cv900 (sending polarization power) > cable > pmd-661 (sending phantom power)
or
ck930 > special/custom cable > tinybox (gain and/or polarization power) > cable > PCM-M10.

I don't see much reason, if you are stealthing and won't be doing long taping runs (like festivals), to get a tinybox that you would have to run the bodies in front of it (ck930 > cv900 > tinybox > recorder), but the tinybox that does polarization voltage has real benefits (again, IMHO based on if you're stealting and need small equipment). There are positives/negatives about both approaches, it's a matter of what you're trying to do with it.

[Popmarter]

Quote:
"I think you can get the tinybox set up to provide capsule polarization and allow you to skip the mic bodies entirely".

What?? What is capsule polarization?
What mic bodies? You mean the CV 900 preamp that is at the end of the cable? Can you take those off? 

the mic bodies that I mentioned refer to the CV 900 pre-amp.  The tinybox (or the littlebox) can provide +48 polarization voltage to power the CK930 caps directly.  With that setup, you wouldn't need the CV900 mic bodies.

Jason beat me to it.

In my mind, the current choice is:

ck930 > cable > cv900 (sending polarization power) > cable > pmd-661 (sending phantom power)

You plug in the cv900 straight into the pmd-661 right, there is no cable inbetween.

or
ck930 > special/custom cable > tinybox (gain and/or polarization power) > cable > PCM-M10.

Question on this:
The CV900 ends with mini XLR that, in my mind, goes straight into the pmd661. I have not found any pictures of a CK930 without a cv900 (can you buy them like that?). So, if that is at all possible, you need to go from two mini xlr into to 1 cable and then into the tinybox, right? Then from the tinybox with a single cable to PCM-M10, that's clear.

Would be nice if someone could post some photos of what that looks like. Again, i have not seen it, and i don't feel very much on soldering things myself

I don't see much reason, if you are stealthing and won't be doing long taping runs (like festivals), to get a tinybox that you would have to run the bodies in front of it (ck930 > cv900 > tinybox > recorder), but the tinybox that does polarization voltage has real benefits (again, IMHO based on if you're stealting and need small equipment). There are positives/negatives about both approaches, it's a matter of what you're trying to do with it.

Difficult point here, 4 hours... i do Springsteenshows

[page]

In my mind, the current choice is:

ck930 > cable > cv900 (sending polarization power) > cable > pmd-661 (sending phantom power)

You plug in the cv900 straight into the pmd-661 right, there is no cable inbetween.

or
ck930 > special/custom cable > tinybox (gain and/or polarization power) > cable > PCM-M10.

Question on this:
The CV900 ends with mini XLR that, in my mind, goes straight into the pmd661. I have not found any pictures of a CK930 without a cv900 (can you buy them like that?).

There is debate about that. A couple of things on that, we've never seen them sold without being in sets (either 930s or 950s) and when I tried to buy my 950s this fall, I had my retailer specifically call the US distributor who said "no, sets only." That said, a quick check this evening shows that FrontEndAudio appears to be willing to sell just the 930 cap separately at a measly $40 off (per cap) what the full body/cable/mount/cap set price is which isn't worth messing with. In Europe you might be able to call beyerdynamic and ask if there is a distributor who will sell the caps separately and try and get a better deal, but similar to the neumann km100 pricing; the vast majority of that price tag for the set is tied up in the cap.

The cv900 bodies have a 5pin mini-xlr on one end (to the caps) and a standard 3pin xlr on the other to the recorder/preamp.

So, if that is at all possible, you need to go from two mini xlr into to 1 cable and then into the tinybox, right?

Would be nice if someone could post some photos of what that looks like. Again, i have not seen it, and i don't feel very much on soldering things myself

That custom cable from the caps (4pin, not 5 for whatever reason) to the tinybox (6pin shared across 2 mics) would have to be made either by Jon when you buy the tinybox or by a cable maker specifically (Ted might do one, Rob did mine when I had him make my beyer cables). I wouldn't undertake it myself, but I don't do a lot of solder work. Not impossible, just something else to coordinate and tack on for cost.

Difficult point here, 4 hours... i do Springsteenshows

Ask Jon about his runtimes (either internal li-po or 9v). To me there are only 2 run times I keep in mind; 6hrs, and 20hrs. Everything I tape falls into one of those two categories. It either has to run for a standard evening show, or all day at a festival.

[sunjan]

Three recent threads on the same topic:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=130031.msg1804590#msg1804590
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=115606.msg1805295#msg1805295
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=142109.msg1833548#msg1833548

So far, the price quotes other users got on individual caps are disappointing, just a few bucks less than the entire CK930 kit.
I've been in touch with a rep at Beyerdynamic Germany, who actually has an interesting opening:

You write, you ask for a whole user community: we will not make the single CK 930 a regular product, but what about an OEM Version for your needs?

Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Kind regards,

Klaus Kirchhöfer
Product specialist wired microphones ProAudio
beyerdynamic GmbH & Co. KG

You could interpret this as a possibility for a group buy?! I might call him to discuss this further if there's interest...

[page]

You could interpret this as a possibility for a group buy?! I might call him to discuss this further if there's interest...

I guess if your group is about 50-100 units big it might swing, but I don't think they would do it for 10-20 units. 

[Popmarter]

What is a OEM version? One time only?

[page]

What is a OEM version? One time only?

for example, if you ran a large business and were going to use (not resell, but use) like 100 of them in your org. They would do a special order with less limitations than normal sales. What that threshold is in quantity, I don't know, but I suspect it's rather high.