Topic: mics or 4 chan recorder

[deadheadcorey]

i want to get either the r44 in the yard sale or get the bsc2... if its your choice what you go for??

[ScoobieKW]

If your Avantones haven't had the busman mod, I'd say have him upgrade them (under $200), and get the R44.

[bryonsos]

R44 hands down. It will create opportunities, 4 mic mixes, SBD + mic matrices, direct mic comps etc. I'll never regret buying mine.

[page]

if you get a lot of sbd patches (>60% of all of your taping), then the extra 2 channels are nice, but otherwise I'd get mics over just about any other gear.

[adrianf74]

if you get a lot of sbd patches (>60% of all of your taping), then the extra 2 channels are nice, but otherwise I'd get mics over just about any other gear.

Agreed.   And worst case scenario, pick up a second deck on the cheap and use that if/when you do get board patches or want to run two mics and then sync your sources.   I've looked at the 44 many times now and can't justify it with how often I get board access (about 5-6 times a year).  I think someone on here once said, always get the better mics first and I'll agree.  In your case, however, you might be able to get Busman to upgrade your mics as ScoobieKW mentioned. 

[acidjack]

if you get a lot of sbd patches (>60% of all of your taping), then the extra 2 channels are nice, but otherwise I'd get mics over just about any other gear.

Correct. This is the case for me, and it is well worth it.  With SBD patches, your mics matter somewhat less (though having comped my LSD2+SBD vs. Schoeps + SBD in the same spot in the exact same room, uh, they still matter a ton). 

The -44 is rock solid and IMHO there is nothing out there except Sound Devices and that caliber of deck that is equal to its feature set and quality.  I have made a ridiculous number of gear switches over the past couple years but have never even considered unloading the -44, and I don't intend to until either (a) Roland makes an R-66/R-88 that's the same size, or (b) someone feels like bequeathing me a 788T.   

[deadheadcorey]

I do a lot of on the fly matrix's in the small clubs here in Denver. Quixotes/cervantes/other side... but I also wanted to go actives. I don't think busman can make my avantone actives... r44 is tempting at this point

[ScoobieKW]

In that case, definitely get the R44. The Avantones will work for a while, your recordings are good now. Actives are convienent, but won't give you the sound advantage of being able to matrix in post. Make mics the next purchase.

As far as modding the CK-1s, it doesn't hurt to ask Chris about your options.  I have the CK-1s with the Busman mod, a friend has stock Avantones (and yes I know we should do a comparison) when I spoke to Chris he gave two options. 1) mod the current bodies, 2)New bodies using existing caps. Both were very affordable.

 

[bryonsos]

if you get a lot of sbd patches (>60% of all of your taping), then the extra 2 channels are nice, but otherwise I'd get mics over just about any other gear.

Even if you don't get a SBD, you can try for snake channels for onstage. I've been pleasantly surprised at how many soundmen will let you use their empty ones. In many situations, I actually prefer on stage + aud.

[stevetoney]

In the venues you record at, do you like SBD or matrix recordings better than what you get from your mics?  If so, buy the R44.  If not, by all means go with the mics. 

For me, it's a rare SBD recording that I think sounds better than a good aud, so I could care less about getting a patch.  I've been offered many times and I say thanks but I'm good.  So if it was me and I was faced with your decision, it would be a no-brainer for me to go with the mics.

[Todd R]

Corey,

I don't think I'd jump towards the busman actives (or any actives) given the taping I think you do.  Actives are great if you want to do discreet, low-profile taping.  Say stealth or discreet FOB taping when you aren't allowed/preferred to be there. 

If you get actives, you're probably getting less mic for the money than if you went with traditional full body mics.  If you then use the actives to get into places in the venue to tape where you otherwise wouldn't, then the better sound in those areas will make up for the lesser mics.  In your case though, I haven't known you to be doing a lot of discreet FOB taping or stealthing.  For the bands you tape, and where you mainly tape (quixotes, cervantes, etc), you could just run far FOB if you wanted whether or not you had full bodied mics -- getting actives just doesn't seem to buy you much.

If you want to upgrade the sound from your mics, I might suggest getting something like AKGs (or get the Avantones busman modded, or just get full bodied Busmans and use the rest of the money elsewhere in your rig).  For the AKGs, there is a set of 460/ck61/ck63's in the yardsale for $1000, including an active cable and a set of mic cables you don't need.  If you can get the seller to skip those unwanted cables and sell you the mics and caps for $900, you could then sell your Avantones for $200 or so.  Which seems to be about the same budget as the R44 -- I think that would give you a big step up on the mic side.

Or if you want to make doing 4ch easier, and you seem to be doing a lot, the R44 is a great choice.  Normally my advice is to put more into you mics, not the rest of the gear chain.  But you've been doing a lot of 4ch matrices and with the chatty CO crowds, esp in quixotes/cervantes, etc, the 4ch matrix using your Avantones is probably a very good bet.

[acidjack]

Corey,

I don't think I'd jump towards the busman actives (or any actives) given the taping I think you do.  Actives are great if you want to do discreet, low-profile taping.  Say stealth or discreet FOB taping when you aren't allowed/preferred to be there. 

If you get actives, you're probably getting less mic for the money than if you went with traditional full body mics.  If you then use the actives to get into places in the venue to tape where you otherwise wouldn't, then the better sound in those areas will make up for the lesser mics.  In your case though, I haven't known you to be doing a lot of discreet FOB taping or stealthing.  For the bands you tape, and where you mainly tape (quixotes, cervantes, etc), you could just run far FOB if you wanted whether or not you had full bodied mics -- getting actives just doesn't seem to buy you much.

If you want to upgrade the sound from your mics, I might suggest getting something like AKGs (or get the Avantones busman modded, or just get full bodied Busmans and use the rest of the money elsewhere in your rig).  For the AKGs, there is a set of 460/ck61/ck63's in the yardsale for $1000, including an active cable and a set of mic cables you don't need.  If you can get the seller to skip those unwanted cables and sell you the mics and caps for $900, you could then sell your Avantones for $200 or so.  Which seems to be about the same budget as the R44 -- I think that would give you a big step up on the mic side.

Or if you want to make doing 4ch easier, and you seem to be doing a lot, the R44 is a great choice.  Normally my advice is to put more into you mics, not the rest of the gear chain.  But you've been doing a lot of 4ch matrices and with the chatty CO crowds, esp in quixotes/cervantes, etc, the 4ch matrix using your Avantones is probably a very good bet.

Very sound advice and a not-often-made point that runs contra to what seems to be a lot of the CW around here that there is something magical about "lowpro" mics or actives.  There are good things about them, but it depends what you do.

I'm usually the only taper where I go, so whether I am running LD mics or active Schoeps, I am pretty "low profile" (esp because I am usually right at the SBD and not that often in actual sight lines).  I primarily like the active options because they're lighter weight and smaller  for transport (at least, if the bodies aren't in the chain at all) and (more importantly to me) are less heavy to run from a balcony.   And of course, the occasional stealth job.  But really, I could do without, and if cost were a high factor in my decision, I definitely would.

Now, if you tape frequently on huge trees with tons of mics on them, then having some nice little actives is a big plus because you're not in other tapers' way as much and less in the audience's sight lines.  But not everybody does that.

[ScoobieKW]

The other thing is that he has Avantone CK-1 mics. Chris recently quoted me $175 to mod CK-1s, or $250 for BSC1 bodies to use with the CK-1 caps. Much cheaper than 600 for a pair of BSC2 used.

[hi and lo]

If you get actives, you're probably getting less mic for the money than if you went with traditional full body mics

I have to agree and, to take it a step further, think that people tend to overvalue the convenience of actives while assuming their performance is equivalent to standard bodies. I can count on one hand the number of people (on this board) that have legitimately raised this question and , even with Schoeps which arguably does actives the best, I don't think it's possible to say they sound exactly the same.

That's not to say that an active solution isn't convenient or will sound worse, but simply that any sonic difference seems to be taken for granted and completely ignored in the decision making process.

[Massive Dynamic]

If you get actives, you're probably getting less mic for the money than if you went with traditional full body mics.

For the same money, would you recommend the VM-44 link or classic? I'm in the market.