Topic: ROLAND R-05 + AT853a 4.7k Mod (Card)

[emcdos]

Hi there, ...I´m going to receive soon a R-05 and I plan to use it as a back up of my main gear, a M10...

Time ago, I discarded the R-05 as option due to the fact that it had not been tested enough taping concerts, and I had read here that its line input it´s "not so hot"...
so I considered that the R-05 could be more prone to clipping/distortion in loud concerts than the M10 (at least going through line-in), so I went for the M10... Any way, it seems that now a days there are more R-05 users and there aren´t too much complaints in this regard....

Well, the case is that I have just got an AT853a 4.7k mod (Card), and as it has been reported here, supposedly I could use it straight to the M10 (line-in without BB or pream) even in loud concerts.... and here are my newbie questions:

- Do you do think that the 4.7k mod would avoid distortion in the R-05 going line-in similarly to the M10?
- Or despite the 4.7k mod, would you recommend using a BB (UBB or Ugly Pream for instance) for going line-in with the R-05?
- Would I be safer using the R-05 mic-in instead line-in?... it seems that the mic-in of both recorders are more alike than their line-in....

Any advice or experience would be very appreciated... many thanks in advance and best!

[fmaderjr]

Hi there, ...I´m going to receive soon a R-05 and I plan to use it as a back up of my main gear, a M10...

Time ago, I discarded the R-05 as option due to the fact that it had not been tested enough taping concerts, and I had read here that its line input it´s "not so hot"...
so I considered that the R-05 could be more prone to clipping/distortion in loud concerts than the M10 (at least going through line-in), so I went for the M10... Any way, it seems that now a days there are more R-05 users and there aren´t too much complaints in this regard....
A pretty low % of taperssection members that mention their equipment are using an R-05. A high % of us that use a small recorder use the M-10.


Well, the case is that I have just got an AT853a 4.7k mod (Card), and as it has been reported here, supposedly I could use it straight to the M10 (line-in without BB or pream) even in loud concerts.... and here are my newbie questions:

- Do you do think that the 4.7k mod would avoid distortion in the R-05 going line-in similarly to the M10?
You can't go line in without something to power the mics like a battery box. You would need to go mic in. Several members have reported success going mic in to the M10. I haven't read about any results with the R-05. There's a decent chance it would work (members have reported success going mic in to the R-09HR) but you 'd have to test it on a loud band where a successful recording isn't important to you.
- Or despite the 4.7k mod, would you recommend using a BB (UBB or Ugly Pream for instance) for going line-in with the R-05?
It would certainly be safer until tested without a box. The 4.7 mod was not designed to eliminate the need for a battery box, it was designed to keep the mic itself from distorting at high sound pressure levels. (On the other hand, Chris Church's 2.2 mod was designed to go mic in at loud shows without a battery box.)
- Would I be safer using the R-05 mic-in instead line-in?... it seems that the mic-in of both recorders are more alike than their line-in....
Again, you have no choice but to go mic in without a battery box.

I don't know any advantages the R-05 has over the M10, and if you live in the US it doesn't cost enough less, IMO, to justify getting it instead of a 2nd M10 as a backup. You might consider returning it if it wouldn't be a problem. If you want to save money on a backup recorder and don't expect to be using it all that much, some members here are happy with some of the cheaper Tascams like the DR-07 that can be had for $125 or so.

[emcdos]

[/quote]

I don't know any advantages the R-05 has over the M10, and if you live in the US it doesn't cost enough less, IMO, to justify getting it instead of a 2nd M10 as a backup. You might consider returning it if it wouldn't be a problem. If you want to save money on a backup recorder and don't expect to be using it all that much, some members here are happy with some of the cheaper Tascams like the DR-07 that can be had for $125 or so.
[/quote]

Really many thanks indeed fmaderj... I see your point, in fact I have 2 M10s as main units because I sometimes do double recording... but I´m going to receive the R-05 because a guy got 2 units in a Roland´s promotion for professionals or so, and he is selling one new for the half of its normal price... so I decide get it and try it.... I´ll report my experience here when I can test it....

[fmaderjr]

When you get the R-5, you may want to play around with the hidden menu:

Hi, just got my new Roland R05 this afternoon and found there is a hidden menu you can access by pressing the "A<>B/Split" button together with the "Menu" button.
It will display what looks like the normal menu screen but with an extra option choice #8 that says "Special Setup".
When you select that option #8 it takes you into a bunch more parameters that you can set and fiddle with.
The most useful one for me at the moment is turning off the "Record" red led light whenever you go into record mode.  That's good for stealth mode recording in dark places so it won't catch attention.
There is also a mic gain setting which is default I think to 18DB gain.  You can adjust it in fixed increments up or down a litlle bit.  I think the next higher gain step jumps to 28DB gain, the next lower setting is like 13DB gain (I cannot remember as I don't have it in front of me now).  There is also a setting called "Mic Bias" which is default set to *0.9.  I have no idea what it is for except my guess is how much battery voltage it sends to the mic plug in power.
Many other adjustments are in there to tweak reverb timings and all that too, there's more too but I just cannot remember the list.  But there you have it.  Nice easter egg they gave us.

Preamp noise? I have no conclusive opinion yet compared to my Sony PCM-M10 and PCM-D50 mic-in preamp noise levels.  But the R-05 seems to be just as quiet by my initial impressions.
No, I have not tested line-in overload levels.  I don't use line-in currently.
Updated: to correct menu selection choice #6 to #8 for the "Special Setup" after I looked at it again.  Also there is not adjustments for reverb settings, but rather the "Auto Record Start" parameters instead as well as the AGC level and attack settings.
#

Very useful for turning off the bright recording light, although I either don't understand or don't care about many of the setting you can change.

[emcdos]

That´s very interesting... I think I will be able to test the R-05 + AT853a soon....

[dallman]

The Roland R-05 is a great deck. I think it every bit the equal of the Sony M10. Like all decks, you will need a battery box or preamp if you want to go line in. I have run it with the following configurations: Church CA11 Cardioid, CA 14 Cardioid, CAFS Omni and AT 853 Cardioid (terminated to 1/8). The AT's are from Sound Professionals so I do not think there is any mod done, but I really do not know. That set of mics (the AT's) will run very hot and at loud music, I either need to use an attenuator or run it at "1" and turn the preamp down a gret deal. The church mics are less sensitive and I never have a problem even in the loudest of music, so I tend to use the AT 853's for acoustic and softer music.

The R-05 is a rock solid performer and it does not have the flaws of the M10 in terms of the record level wheel moving, or the 2 channels being different levels or the micro SD card being tempermental. The R-05 uses full sized SD cards and I have used all types of brands with no issues.

I do have 2 complaints: The line in and mic in labels are hard to read (just stamped into the rubberized top), so I put a dot of red paint above the line in jack to see it. Also the printing on the deck rubs off over time, so it while "Roland" rubbing off is no big deal, I used a label gun to relabel the buttons on the back which are the only ones printed and affected.  The only one I'd ever use is the gain button, I think the other 2 are the limiter and something else. They rubbed off completely.

You will really like the deck. I think the diversity of having 2 decks is far preferable over 2 of the same deck, but I am sure others might not want to have 2 routines or have to learn the nuances of 2 decks and that is completely understandable too. Have fun!

[fmaderjr]

The R-05 is a rock solid performer and it does not have the flaws of the M10 in terms of the record level wheel moving, or the 2 channels being different levels or the micro SD card being tempermental. The R-05 uses full sized SD cards and I have used all types of brands with no issues.

Micro cards are a pain to handle and easy to lose. I avoid that problem by just leaving a big one in the M10 and never removing it, using USB to transfer to the computer. When I used to remove the micro card some times I had to reinsert 3-4 times before it was recognized.

For some, the fact that the record wheel doesn't lock is a huge advantage. No need to take off hold to change levels. I've never had a problem with it moving, but if you do, that's easily handled with gaffers tape.

I do have 2 complaints: The line in and mic in labels are hard to read (just stamped into the rubberized top), so I put a dot of red paint above the line in jack to see it. Also the printing on the deck rubs off over time, so it while "Roland" rubbing off is no big deal, I used a label gun to relabel the buttons on the back which are the only ones printed and affected.  The only one I'd ever use is the gain button, I think the other 2 are the limiter and something else. They rubbed off completely.

Assuming the printing coming off is a common problem, a new purchaser could cover the labels with clear tape when he receives the machine.

[SmokinJoe]

I have an R05.  I've used it quite a bit, but always line in behind a preamp.  One thing that impresses me is that it can take some pretty hot feeds (from the VMS42), where I had it turned down to 10 without overloading (I can't remember if the scale is 0-60 or 0-80, but either way 10 is on the low end).  It's not +25dbu or anything, but for a small unit

As someone said... for any small deck, the Line-in doesn't supply any power to the mics, and the mics need power.  You will need to run Mic-in so you can turn on the plug-in power, or use a batterybox/preamp.

[Fried Chicken Boy]

I've had my R-05 for less than a year and haven't used it that many times compared to my other decks but I'm a fan.  Pre-amps are every bit as good as the R-09HR and, likely, the Sony M10.  I've fed some hot signals from a SD MixPre into the R-05 several times and haven't had a single overload/clipping issue.  What sealed the deal for me was that when you "lock" the buttons, it locks them all.  I've personally heard from a few M10 users about the level wheel accidentally moving while stealthing a recording and that was a deal-breaker for me.  YMMV and personal choice, etc.

[emcdos]

Many thanks guys for sharing your interesting experiences and opinions. It seems that the R05 is becomening more and more tested and the initial suspicions have been overcome... 

Using the M10, I´ve never had problems with the wheel, that´s the real thing, but in my personal case, I´ll feel a bit safer with the R05 knowing that ALL the buttons are really locked.

Having both in my hands and comparing them, another interesting thing is the size: the R05 is noticeably smaller than the M10, which improves for st**lthing and so... although, of course, the drawback would be its tiny screen...

"""As someone said... for any small deck, the Line-in doesn't supply any power to the mics...""

...btw, the H320 can supply power vía Line-in. I have been using it for some years, and so I thought that the R05 might do it too....

[Church-Audio]

Hi there, ...I´m going to receive soon a R-05 and I plan to use it as a back up of my main gear, a M10...

Time ago, I discarded the R-05 as option due to the fact that it had not been tested enough taping concerts, and I had read here that its line input it´s "not so hot"...
so I considered that the R-05 could be more prone to clipping/distortion in loud concerts than the M10 (at least going through line-in), so I went for the M10... Any way, it seems that now a days there are more R-05 users and there aren´t too much complaints in this regard....

Well, the case is that I have just got an AT853a 4.7k mod (Card), and as it has been reported here, supposedly I could use it straight to the M10 (line-in without BB or pream) even in loud concerts.... and here are my newbie questions:

- Do you do think that the 4.7k mod would avoid distortion in the R-05 going line-in similarly to the M10?
- Or despite the 4.7k mod, would you recommend using a BB (UBB or Ugly Pream for instance) for going line-in with the R-05?
- Would I be safer using the R-05 mic-in instead line-in?... it seems that the mic-in of both recorders are more alike than their line-in....

Any advice or experience would be very appreciated... many thanks in advance and best!

No it will not work and even if there was pip voltage it would not be enough for my 4.7K MOD to work properly especially with the AT mics. I would recommend at the very least a battery box.

[darktrain]

Hi there, ...I´m going to receive soon a R-05 and I plan to use it as a back up of my main gear, a M10...

Time ago, I discarded the R-05 as option due to the fact that it had not been tested enough taping concerts, and I had read here that its line input it´s "not so hot"...
so I considered that the R-05 could be more prone to clipping/distortion in loud concerts than the M10 (at least going through line-in), so I went for the M10... Any way, it seems that now a days there are more R-05 users and there aren´t too much complaints in this regard....

Well, the case is that I have just got an AT853a 4.7k mod (Card), and as it has been reported here, supposedly I could use it straight to the M10 (line-in without BB or pream) even in loud concerts.... and here are my newbie questions:

- Do you do think that the 4.7k mod would avoid distortion in the R-05 going line-in similarly to the M10?
- Or despite the 4.7k mod, would you recommend using a BB (UBB or Ugly Pream for instance) for going line-in with the R-05?
- Would I be safer using the R-05 mic-in instead line-in?... it seems that the mic-in of both recorders are more alike than their line-in....

Any advice or experience would be very appreciated... many thanks in advance and best!

No it will not work and even if there was pip voltage it would not be enough for my 4.7K MOD to work properly especially with the AT mics. I would recommend at the very least a battery box.

I have ran the AT853(4.7k) into the MIC IN many times with no problem and very nice results on the M10, PMD620 and the H320.

[Church-Audio]

Hi there, ...I´m going to receive soon a R-05 and I plan to use it as a back up of my main gear, a M10...

Time ago, I discarded the R-05 as option due to the fact that it had not been tested enough taping concerts, and I had read here that its line input it´s "not so hot"...
so I considered that the R-05 could be more prone to clipping/distortion in loud concerts than the M10 (at least going through line-in), so I went for the M10... Any way, it seems that now a days there are more R-05 users and there aren´t too much complaints in this regard....

Well, the case is that I have just got an AT853a 4.7k mod (Card), and as it has been reported here, supposedly I could use it straight to the M10 (line-in without BB or pream) even in loud concerts.... and here are my newbie questions:

- Do you do think that the 4.7k mod would avoid distortion in the R-05 going line-in similarly to the M10?
- Or despite the 4.7k mod, would you recommend using a BB (UBB or Ugly Pream for instance) for going line-in with the R-05?
- Would I be safer using the R-05 mic-in instead line-in?... it seems that the mic-in of both recorders are more alike than their line-in....

Any advice or experience would be very appreciated... many thanks in advance and best!

No it will not work and even if there was pip voltage it would not be enough for my 4.7K MOD to work properly especially with the AT mics. I would recommend at the very least a battery box.

I have ran the AT853(4.7k) into the MIC IN many times with no problem and very nice results on the M10, PMD620 and the H320.

Again unless you have a means of measuring SPL you will never know when you will have an issue and run into distortion. Thats why I say use a battery box. Its misleading to say I never had any problems when you cant relate that to an actual sound pressure level. My mod with this mic will have a distortion of less then 0.5% THD at 114 db at 1k. With 8v pip and it goes down quite a bit when the voltage is dropped in half. And quite a bit more when the voltage is dropped down to 4-3 volts. And I am not saying this because I want to sell battery boxes because I dont really make a huge amount of money on them, its because its a fact I designed this mod and I have measured it at different voltages.

[SmokinJoe]

"""As someone said... for any small deck, the Line-in doesn't supply any power to the mics...""

...btw, the H320 can supply power vía Line-in. I have been using it for some years, and so I thought that the R05 might do it too....

Yes, I stand corrected.  The iRivers have 1 input for mic/line/(and optical on the iHP1xx).  I was thinking about the R05/R09/M10/620, etc which have separate mic/line input jacks.  The pluginpower only works on the mic-in jack on R05 and R09.  I can't speak authoritatively on the M10/620 etc, but I believe they work that same way.

I think what Chris is saying is running mod AT's on plug in power (like 3V) is unadvised.  Lot's of people "get away with it" but some night it will be a little louder than you expected and then you will end up with distortion, so he advises a battery box/preamp which supplies 8 or 9V, and give the mics more headroom.  He was the one who came up with the 4.7k mod for AT's, so I think he probably knows what he is talking about.

[darktrain]

"""As someone said... for any small deck, the Line-in doesn't supply any power to the mics...""

...btw, the H320 can supply power vía Line-in. I have been using it for some years, and so I thought that the R05 might do it too....

Yes, I stand corrected.  The iRivers have 1 input for mic/line/(and optical on the iHP1xx).  I was thinking about the R05/R09/M10/620, etc which have separate mic/line input jacks.  The pluginpower only works on the mic-in jack on R05 and R09.  I can't speak authoritatively on the M10/620 etc, but I believe they work that same way.

I think what Chris is saying is running mod AT's on plug in power (like 3V) is unadvised.  Lot's of people "get away with it" but some night it will be a little louder than you expected and then you will end up with distortion, so he advises a battery box/preamp which supplies 8 or 9V, and give the mics more headroom.  He was the one who came up with the 4.7k mod for AT's, so I think he probably knows what he is talking about.

Not disputing it but when i said loud, i mean Iron Maiden on the floor loud into the H320 with no distortion, and i was wearing ear plugs and it barely helped, but ymmv. That being said a BB can only help.

[adrianf74]

That being said a BB can only help.

^^ That. 

Just because one _can_ get away with something doesn't mean it's the best decision to make.  I've heard of experiences where people skipped a battery box, ran mic in, and got burned on their capture (even though they'd be previously fine).   That _ONE_ special show you're at could be deemed a wasted effort because of not wanting to carry a $30 battery box.  It doesn't add much bulk to the M10 and can be easily brought with.   I remember the days of the WMD-D3 or TCD-D7 with a Core-Sound Battery Box (never mind mics).    The M10, Ugly Battery Box (or preamp for that matter) and CA-14's/CA-11's/AT-853's/AT-943's/DPA 4061/B3 microphones are a breeze comparitively.