Topic: Wanting to upgrade fom CSB + M10 to DPA 4061 + ? + M10?

[edmaddict]

I've been reading the forums for 2 years now, this is my first post!

Budget  1.5K-2K.

What I record:
1. Primary use is: Electronic dance music, very heavy bass. So far I've found that standing directly in front of the stacks works best.
2. Family events with a homemade Jecklin disk, or rigged binaruly. Though I actually would like to mic everyone (a story for another day I guess).
3. Meetings, for which I believe I do need an amp. The M10 on high sensitivity doesn't sound very good.

Problems with current rig:
CSB Mics
1. Are not balanced 2db+ off at times, primarily in the higher frequency ranges.
2. They stick out too far on my glasses.

Total size of the rig is very important.
2. CSB battery box is too large. I've been shoving it down "there". To give you an idea of the event security though, I received a very thorough pat down and had to remove my shoes!
3. The M10 is very nice, though it would be great if there was something smaller. I've just been holding it in my hand between my cellphone, tickets, id, & cash...  just holding the M10 in my hand (which oddly they've never questioned, but I'm always very uncomfortable in the situation)
    3b. This may be a pipe dream, but an all in one BB/AMP/ADC that I could then feed into my phone would be awesome!

What I'm looking for:
The best sound I can get, in a small package.
I don't mind some crowd noise, it adds to the ambiance.
Accurate bass reproduction is very important.
A run time of at least 8 hours.

Mics:
I've heard great things about the DPA omni mics, and they are very small. Ordering a matched pair seems like the way to go here.
- On DPA's site they mention that the old style non stress relieved mic cables are still available upon request. Is that a useful option, or a bad idea.

I'm quite nervous making a bad purchase for what goes between the mics and the M10. This is what's stopping me from upgrading my gear. What's available to meet my needs.  I've found that digging up this information to be very difficult and I'm left with so many questions.
- I'll need an amp, but which amp?
     - I've read about John Stoppable's TinyBox which is changing this year to a smaller form factor.
     - NBox platinum that's coming out.
     - Something from Church Audio.
     -
- I've seen some nice stubby cables made by Dark Train http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=110932.0
- I guess I need some special connectors for the 4061 mics, microdot connectors?

- Is there something smaller than the M10 out there?

Regards,
Chris

[yates7592]

Recorder - M10 is pretty much as small as they get, with the exception of Roland R05 which is like 10-15% smaller and of very similar sound quality.

Mics - if you can, get the latest 4061's with the robust strain relief cable, it's one less thing to go wrong with time.

Preamp - pass, I'm not sure what the options are for PIP mics.

[Ultfris101]

DPA 4061s are a great choice. You won't find better, tiny, omnis which sound perfect for what you're doing. If you have the budget it's a good call. I can't comment on the strain relief changes. Maybe somebody else is familiar with this.

Stick with the microdots as they come from DPA if you can. They're tiny and reliable. I had Chris Church make me a short adapter cable that joins two microdots into a single 1/8" mini trs and it works great. Not cheap but about impossible to find off the shelf and worth avoiding the mishmash of adapters that can be used.

Between the mics and the recorder (M10 is a great choice) the Church Audio Ugly Battery Box (smaller than the 9V batter it plugs into) is a good choice. Super small but it will then depend solely on the recorder's pre-amps for everything after that (gain, etc). Many people, including myself do this and it works fine but as you point out you might need a preamp for quieter sources. I have a Church Audio 9200 I like a lot and it's another box about the size of an M10 but not a big deal in my opinion. This gives you good gain and battery life. Naiant (Jon Stoppable) is discontinuing the tinybox/PIPsqueak line but he's coming out with a new one to replace it in 2015 so you could wait for that.

You can also look around for the DPA preamp (MMA6000) but I just noticed it's discontinued. It has microdots built in. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/354375-REG/DPA_Microphones_MMA6000_MMA6000_Miniature_Two_Channel.html

For these mics you're looking for "Plug In Power" (PIP) which is generally about 5v - 9v. An nbox would sound good but you're getting into overkill territory for what you sound like you're looking to do. Not that there's anything wrong with that. We regularly overkill things around here.

You have a pretty realistic budget to get a good rig together. For recording low profile I think you'd love the Church Audio UBB.

[acidjack]

For DPA 4061s, you may even be able to get away without a battery box if you put a 2.2k or 4.7k resistor in them (i'd ask the wiring experts, such as darktrain).

Otherwise any simple 9v BB will work. The Church Audio CA-UBB is the absolute smallest; if you want something more robust I'd try the Naiant PIPsqueak (email music@naiant.com) or try one of the boxes from Microphone Madness.

If you're willing to spend 2K, that is potentially enough for a Schoeps rig if you buy carefully, or an AKG active rig. The Schoeps are a lot more work to handle than 4061s in terms of mounting -- you'll need a hat, and of course the mics are small but not that small. That said, Schoeps>NBob Cables or a KCY Clone>Tinybox>M10 is more versatile in terms of where in the venue you can get a good tape than 4061s. The 4061s will have rapidly diminishing returns outside of the "impact zone" or on a stack, but they are great from those spots. The Schoeps are going to be incredible in the impact zone, but they'll still be good from a balcony, further back, etc.  If you can't find a tinybox, there's always the NBox Platinum. It costs a good bit more, and it's larger, but it's an extremely nice unit.

The same goes for AKGs, except they are cheaper mics, though still very high quality.

You could also get a "PFA" from Naiant and a somewhat larger deck like a Tascam DR-40 or any other one with 48V phantom power and run that with Schoeps or AKGs without a preamp.

Honestly, anything will be better than the CSBs you have, but if your budget is that high, I'd hold out for the rig you really want. If you're always up close, then 4061>BB>M10 is small, really easy to use, and super high quality. I would not let people convince you that the Countryman B3s are better, by the way, though they are cheaper.

[schoepsnbox]

Download a few recordings done with rigs that are within your price range and see which ones sound better to your ears..for the 2k price range there are quite a few great options.
Good luck with your search!

[nulldogmas]

I'll second (or third or fourth) the recommendation for the Church Audio Ugly Battery Box. It literally could not be smaller (it's basically just a clip to go on the end of a 9v battery), and for the kind of music you'll be recording, you shouldn't need a preamp.

And the M10 is the smallest reasonable recorder you're going to find. So feel free to save the bulk of your budget for your mics.

[ilduclo]

sound professionals makes great battery boxes and their service is fantastic. 8 years on mine and only one wire problem, fixed free and shipped free and FAST

[earmonger]

I would go for the UBB rather than a Soundpro battery box. Cheaper (even with shipping), smaller and more robust. If you do get a Soundpro, definitely get the warranty/extended service deal...because you're probably going to use it. 

[ilduclo]

sounds like emmy ^ has had a bad experience with soundpros. I (and others) have had bad experiences with Church, so

[edmaddict]

Wow, thanks for all the responses!

The Church Audio Ugly BB does seem like a good option, it's tiny.

As for finding recordings made with various setups... I've been under the assumption that I should listen to recordings of the same type of music that I'll be taping. Is this accurate?

A Schoeps rig sounds enticing, I want the best sound possible. I don't have much experience taping. Hats are forbidden from all the events I've yet attended. Maybe I can step up to a Schoeps rig some day.

Thanks all,
Chris

[rhinowing]

sound professionals makes great battery boxes and their service is fantastic. 8 years on mine and only one wire problem, fixed free and shipped free and FAST

have had pretty good experiences with sound pros as well, had a bad jack on my box but that was after 3-4 years of heavy use including a bunch of moshpit tapes where the gear was getting slammed around

[swordfish]

I had the DPA 4061/Church BB/M 10 set up and it is the smallest set up you can get....and it works like a charm....I still have the microdot/3.5 mm adapter cable build by Chris from Church Audio.

[F.O.Bean]

And if you're taping bass heavy EDM with omnis at the stacks, you'd better get a decent DAW that allows you to EQ in real time, because I guarantee that 99% of the time, you'll probably have to EQ and cut some bass before you listen/UL it anywhere. Otherwise, it'll probably just be a huge bass heavy mess I mean hell, I record at the SBD with supercardioids[mk41s] and some of my EDM stuff is still super bass heavy, so I can only imagine what running omnis at the stack will produce lowend-wise

[Gutbucket]

DPA miniature omni models-
- 4060 has the lowest noise floor and highest sensitivity. Depending on the input sensitivity of the recorder you are using, for very loud material you may need attenuation rather than simple battery-box powering or amplification.  If you weren't recording super loud EDM bass regularly I'd recommend that one as it works well for even super quiet acoustic performances since it's self-noise is lower than that of any room I've recorded in.  4060 my go to omni.
- 4061 is less sensitive (has a less hot output) with a slightly higher noise floor that is not a problem for any amplified music. In this case that mostly means you will be less likely to overload the preamp or recorder inputs.  This is probably the model you want, is the most commonly used model around here and is widely available.  It is a good match with a battery-box or Church Audio or Naiant low-volatage preamp.
- 4062 is super-low sensitivity, you don't want that one.
- 4063 is a lower supply voltage version with the same sensitivity as the 4061.  It requires a minimum of 3V instead of 5V like the others.  This one might be able to be powered directly with the PIP provided by the recorder, eliminating the need for a battery-box or preamp.  That makes it very interesting, but I've not used it, and know of only one user here who does.  It's not nearly as common like the 4060 and 4061.

For DPA 4061s, you may even be able to get away without a battery box if you put a 2.2k or 4.7k resistor in them (i'd ask the wiring experts, such as darktrain).

Source resistor mod only applies to 3-wire microphones like the ATs, it does not apply to 2-wire mics such as these DPAs.

If you're always up close, then 4061>BB>M10 is small, really easy to use, and super high quality. I would not let people convince you that the Countryman B3s are better, by the way, though they are cheaper.

I completely agree on both counts.  Also work very well from farther back at outside events if used in a spaced-omni open recording setup rather than head-mounted.


Battery-box / preamplifier-
With the possible exception of the 4063, you'll need a battery box or preamp providing low-voltage (Plug In Power 5-9Vdc).  You don't need an amp that provides phantom power or high-voltage polarization (actives) such as a TinyBox or NBox. 

- The DPA MMA6000 works well and has micro-dot connectors but is too big for what you want (it easily fills an entire pocket).
- The Church Audio CA-Ugly preamp is not much larger than the CA-BB (battery box) and provides gain when you need it for quieter stuff.   I use it instead of the MMA6000.   
- The Naiant PIPsqueek is similar the the CA-Ugly in function but uses an internal NiMH rechargeable instead of a standard 9V battery.
- The Church Audio-9100 or 9200 will work, both are larger than the CA-Ugly or PIPsqueek, but not nearly as large as the MMA6000.
- NaiantTinybox with 1/8" input works similarly. 
- One of the upcoming Naiant NA series amps should be a good fit.
- SP battery-box or amp (I don't know much about these).

As mentioned by others, you'll either need to re-terminate the mic cables (most common is to hard-wire both mics to a stereo 1/8" plug) or use a custom-built adapter cable to convert the micro-dots.  Exception are the DPA preamp and battery boxes which have micro-dot inputs, or some custom Chuch Audio gear with microdot inputs.

This may be a pipe dream, but an all in one BB/AMP/ADC that I could then feed into my phone would be awesome!

Jon Stoppable is working on developing a DSP version of his Naiant NA series products in which this capability is planned.  USB out to phone.  You'd need to wait on that though, the other less complex NA boxes will come first.[/quote]