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Offline hotpin#3

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Transfer from Analog to Digital
« on: May 27, 2008, 06:54:14 PM »
I was wondering what is the best method of doing this. What equipment would best this done ? I would prefer to go CD's utilizing 44.1 redbook or  24 bit 96hz.

I know all this has to be transfered in real time, until it's in the digital format. Anyone out there making a 100 min. CD blank ?

thank you for your input on this matter.

adrianf74

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Re: Transfer from Analog to Digital
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2008, 07:12:08 PM »
I was wondering what is the best method of doing this. What equipment would best this done ? I would prefer to go CD's utilizing 44.1 redbook or  24 bit 96hz.

I know all this has to be transfered in real time, until it's in the digital format. Anyone out there making a 100 min. CD blank ?

thank you for your input on this matter.

I'm guessing here that you're transferring old analog masters (or vinyl) in hopes of preserving them in some sort of digital format. 

I don't know the nature of your source material.  If it's analog tape, I've never really been able to wrap my head around why anybody would use 96KHz/24-Bit for it as, sonically, there's not enough data on that source for such a data-rate.  Others would say go for the largest rate you can safely use because you're archiving.

In your case, you're saying you want to put everything on CD.  If this is the case, then you might want to consider using 44.1KHz/24-bit and then downsample to 16-bit for CD and archive the transferred .WAV (or better yet, in FLAC) to a DVD (or better yet, an External Hard Drive). 

90-99 min blank CD's exist but only a couple of manufacturers make them.  I've tried them a few times to find mixed results - and from an integrity standpoint, they don't adhere to redbook or any variant that I know of, and they can tend to flake on you.  For archiving purposes, I'd use TY (Japan) if you can find them and stick with 80 minute discs at the maximum.

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Transfer from Analog to Digital
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2008, 07:17:08 PM »
I was wondering what is the best method of doing this. What equipment would best this done ? I would prefer to go CD's utilizing 44.1 redbook or  24 bit 96hz.

I know all this has to be transfered in real time, until it's in the digital format. Anyone out there making a 100 min. CD blank ?

thank you for your input on this matter.

I'm guessing here that you're transferring old analog masters (or vinyl) in hopes of preserving them in some sort of digital format. 

I don't know the nature of your source material.  If it's analog tape, I've never really been able to wrap my head around why anybody would use 96KHz/24-Bit for it as, sonically, there's not enough data on that source for such a data-rate.  Others would say go for the largest rate you can safely use because you're archiving.

In your case, you're saying you want to put everything on CD.  If this is the case, then you might want to consider using 44.1KHz/24-bit and then downsample to 16-bit for CD and archive the transferred .WAV (or better yet, in FLAC) to a DVD (or better yet, an External Hard Drive). 

90-99 min blank CD's exist but only a couple of manufacturers make them.  I've tried them a few times to find mixed results - and from an integrity standpoint, they don't adhere to redbook or any variant that I know of, and they can tend to flake on you.  For archiving purposes, I'd use TY (Japan) if you can find them and stick with 80 minute discs at the maximum.

I say when your converting analog to digital you go with the largest bit rate you can and you make sure your signal to noise ratio is good. In the end the more bits you have and the higher the sampling rate the more truncated your waveform becomes and the more accurate it is. Now that depends on the converter but if it was me I would crank the converter to 11 :) BUT this also depends on what your going to be playing it back on if your never going to be playing it back at 192 then go 48k
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Offline sunjan

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Re: Transfer from Analog to Digital
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2008, 03:44:26 PM »
I was wondering what is the best method of doing this. What equipment would best this done ? I would prefer to go CD's utilizing 44.1 redbook or  24 bit 96hz.

I know all this has to be transfered in real time, until it's in the digital format. Anyone out there making a 100 min. CD blank ?

if you ever see yourself doing any postprocessing or cleanup, I'm with Church. Go for the highest possible bitrate, which gives you room for restoration later on.

And archive the untouched WAVs on DVD, whether you want to use that medium for playing the music or not. You can easily resample and create playable 16/44.1 CDs, but you will at least have archival backups for future generations.
If you have backup DVDs, feel free to experiment with 90min CDs, but I'd stay away from them.
Search the forum here for a discussion on manufacturer ID on blank media, and why the maker of a DVD isn't the same as the brand.

What are your analog sources? Cassettes, vinyl, reel to reel?

Also, which sound card and type of optical jack are you intending to use? I leart the hard way that some sound cards (read Soundblaster!) with optical-in actually resample the signal internally, and therefore aren't suitable for this kind of work.

And now we'll just wait for dsatz's post where he explains why 12 or 13 bit is sufficient, and anything above that is a total waste ;-)
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adrianf74

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Re: Transfer from Analog to Digital
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2008, 06:03:32 PM »
And now we'll just wait for dsatz's post where he explains why 12 or 13 bit is sufficient, and anything above that is a total waste ;-)

ROTFLMAO.

Well stated, I think all three of us are looking at this from a similar vantage point.  In a perfect world, always record at the largest data-rate you can afford to.  However, depending on the source (r-to-r or tape), there may be little benefit to going beyond 44.1/24. 

Offline boojum

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Re: Transfer from Analog to Digital
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2008, 06:42:52 PM »
I am with DSatz when he says 12 or 13 bit is sufficient as the dynamic range of analog is not great enough to require anything more than that.  You can xfer it at 24/192 but that is a lot of wasted space.  Suit yourself.  You may even find it "sounds better."  I am not convinced there is any reason for it to "sound better" however. 

Bottom line: do what pleases yourself.     8)
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adrianf74

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Re: Transfer from Analog to Digital
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2008, 06:46:23 PM »
I am with DSatz when he says 12 or 13 bit is sufficient as the dynamic range of analog is not great enough to require anything more than that.  You can xfer it at 24/192 but that is a lot of wasted space.  Suit yourself.  You may even find it "sounds better."  I am not convinced there is any reason for it to "sound better" however. 

Bottom line: do what pleases yourself.     8)

Knew this was going to be said; that's why I said 44.1/24-bit (esp. if the person wants to downsample to 16-bit for CD) is a good way to go.  It's still overkill without getting stupid. :D

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Transfer from Analog to Digital
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2008, 07:20:42 PM »
I am with DSatz when he says 12 or 13 bit is sufficient as the dynamic range of analog is not great enough to require anything more than that.  You can xfer it at 24/192 but that is a lot of wasted space.  Suit yourself.  You may even find it "sounds better."  I am not convinced there is any reason for it to "sound better" however. 

Bottom line: do what pleases yourself.     8)

Knew this was going to be said; that's why I said 44.1/24-bit (esp. if the person wants to downsample to 16-bit for CD) is a good way to go.  It's still overkill without getting stupid. :D

Yes but in todays world of cheap storage why not go as big as you can with the files? I could see if blank cd's cost $10 each like they once did :) I remember the day when I had my 2x cdr recorder from sony it was only $2k what a deal... I say you store it in a high sample rate format then down sample if you need to. With the cost of storage being so cheap why not?
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adrianf74

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Re: Transfer from Analog to Digital
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2008, 07:47:27 PM »
With the cost of storage being so cheap why not?

I remember the days of $15 blanks, so, yes, I know where you're coming from. My first 2x PIONEER SCSI recorder was $900 (!!) but I think there is a point where you can safely say it's overkill and a waste of space.

Just because you can doesn't mean you always should... :)

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Transfer from Analog to Digital
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2008, 10:14:05 PM »
With the cost of storage being so cheap why not?

I remember the days of $15 blanks, so, yes, I know where you're coming from. My first 2x PIONEER SCSI recorder was $900 (!!) but I think there is a point where you can safely say it's overkill and a waste of space.

Just because you can doesn't mean you always should... :)


This is the way I think of digital conversion.. When you look at a simple sine wave.. The higher your sampling rate is the more your dissecting that sine wave. So the more dissections of the sine wave or your source. The more accurate the recreation of that waveform will be. On a complex waveform such as music one could technically argue that 12 bit or 44.1 is all you need well I say if that was the case why does 192k sound so much better? I think the more you can dissect a waveform the better your chances are of it being accurate when you convert it back to analog. Even when your talking about reproducing an old tape you have to remember the waveform is much more complex then 44.1 can ever capture with out any of the parts of the waveform being left out. Converters do a good job of "guessing" the bits that are missing. But why leave it up to guesswork? when you can make sure you accurately capture at least as good as is possible the waveform your trying to recreate. Remember the sine wave its a simple waveform its duration and amplitude are very basic compared to music. Its very easy to predict a 1k tone. But when you look at music there are bits and pieces between the sampling rate that are just left to guesswork. That guesswork IMO is whats wrong with digital in the first place. So I say crank up the sampling rate. But if your converter sucks then going higher might not be a good thing. It all depends on hardware and noise floor.



Chris
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Offline tilomagnet

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Re: Transfer from Analog to Digital
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2008, 05:26:51 AM »
Bit depths and sample rates are overrated.  :D

Get yourself a good quality cassette deck that lets you adjust the playback azimuth and a decent ADC that doesn't add much noise. Then you're good to go. If you want to do post production (i.e. hiss reduction, EQ'ing etc.) I'd go 24 bit. Also masters or rare 1st gens are generally worth it to be transfered in 24 bit as well IMHO.

Otherwise 16/44 is fine.


Roving Sign

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Re: Transfer from Analog to Digital
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2008, 08:25:00 AM »
With the cost of storage being so cheap why not?

I remember the days of $15 blanks, so, yes, I know where you're coming from. My first 2x PIONEER SCSI recorder was $900 (!!) but I think there is a point where you can safely say it's overkill and a waste of space.

Just because you can doesn't mean you always should... :)


This is the way I think of digital conversion.. When you look at a simple sine wave.. The higher your sampling rate is the more your dissecting that sine wave. So the more dissections of the sine wave or your source. The more accurate the recreation of that waveform will be.

And thats just the point that DSatz seems to be repeatedly refuting...

And believe me - that's exacty the way I have thought of it...it's taking me a while to get past it - but his explanation makes a bit sense.

Good post here Chris...

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,103553.msg1395204.html#msg1395204
« Last Edit: May 29, 2008, 10:12:53 AM by Roving Sign »

Offline DSatz

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Re: Transfer from Analog to Digital
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2008, 08:51:02 AM »
Church-Audio, you write as if there were general agreement that higher sampling rates "sound better." I know a lot of people in professional audio, and what I find instead is that people who believe as you do about "dissection" (a very good word for the theory which you follow) expect a higher sampling rate to bring increased waveform fidelity, and this expectation influences what they perceive.

If you were to make fair, direct comparisons when you didn't know in advance what sampling rate you were listening to, I think you would find that it is nearly impossible to hear differences except with specially concocted test signals--and then (for most people) only with some ear training in advance. Those test signals have to be oriented to the specific characteristics of the particular filters used in the A/Ds and D/As; music and speech might hit those specific bit patterns once in a gazillion years, or they might not.

I could tell you quite a few stories about situations in which very prominent classical producers and engineers--guys who think they can tell when silver vs. copper wire is used in the light bulbs over their heads--didn't realize that they were monitoring through absolutely conventional 16-bit 44.1 kHz A/D and D/A converters. Under real-world recording conditions when you don't set yourself up to hear what you expect to hear, the better ones can be essentially audibly transparent on program material nearly all the time.

Finally, the expectations to which I refer are based on a very basic misunderstanding about digital audio, since the sampling and reconstruction process in fact does not dissect audio waveforms in the way that you seem to mean. All the in-between moments of the varying analog signal are encompassed--not just the discrete moments at which samples are recorded. That can't be seen in the visual model which most people have of the process, which shows the effects of sampling, but not the effects of the analog signal's subsequent reconstruction. However, it can be shown both mathematically and empirically (with analog oscilloscope traces and through unbiased "blind" listening experiments) that it is so.

If it were not so, then the signal-to-noise ratio of the CD medium would be worse than that of an analog cassette. Think about it: If the system really worked the way you imagine, there would be no signal energy during playback in the moments between the samples, and the power in the "pulses" or "spikes" would need to be distributed among the much greater expanses of time in which there was no signal energy, like an "area under the curve" problem. That would greatly diminish the dynamic range of the system; if the pulses were (say) 1% as wide as the intervals between them, 40 dB of dynamic range would be lost and so on.

You could say that the extent to which a PCM recording system can approach its theoretical maximum signal-to-noise ratio is the extent to which its recorded samples actually cover the entire sampling interval which they each describe. Since the actual limit is usually set by the associated analog electronics, that should tell you something pretty important about your theory.

--best regards
« Last Edit: December 26, 2009, 08:54:04 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Transfer from Analog to Digital
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2008, 01:11:36 PM »
Church-Audio, you write as if there were general agreement that higher sampling rates "sound better"--what evidence do you really have of such a general agreement? I know a lot of people in professional audio, and what I find instead is that people who believe as you do about "dissection" (a very good word for the theory which you follow) expect a higher sampling rate to bring increased waveform fidelity, and this expectation influences what they perceive.

If you were to make fair, direct comparisons when you didn't know in advance what sampling rate you were listening to, I think you would find that it is nearly impossible to hear differences except with specially concocted test signals--and then (for most people) only with some ear training in advance. Those test signals have to be oriented to the specific characteristics of the particular filters used in the A/Ds and D/As; music and speech might hit those specific bit patterns once in a gazillion years, or they might not.

I could tell you quite a few stories about situations in which very prominent classical producers and engineers--guys who think they can tell when silver vs. copper wire is used in the light bulbs over their heads--didn't realize that they were monitoring through absolutely conventional 16-bit 44.1 kHz A/D and D/A converters. Under real-world recording conditions when you don't set yourself up to hear what you expect to hear, the better ones can be essentially audibly transparent on program material nearly all the time.

Finally, the expectations to which I refer are based on a very basic misunderstanding about digital audio, since the sampling and reconstruction process in fact does not dissect audio waveforms in the way that you seem to mean. All the in-between moments of the varying analog signal are encompassed--not just the discrete moments at which samples are recorded. That can't be seen in the visual model which most people have of the process, which shows the effects of sampling, but not the effects of the analog signal's subsequent reconstruction. However, it can be shown both mathematically and empirically (with analog oscilloscope traces and through unbiased "blind" listening experiments) that it is so.

If it were not so, then the signal-to-noise ratio of the CD medium would be worse than that of an analog cassette. Think about it: If the system really worked the way you imagine, there would be no signal energy during playback in the moments between the samples, and the power in the "pulses" or "spikes" would need to be distributed among the much greater expanses of time in which there was no signal energy, like an "area under the curve" problem. That would greatly diminish the dynamic range of the system; if the pulses were (say) 1% as wide as the intervals between them, 40 dB of dynamic range would be lost and so on.

You could say that the extent to which a PCM recording system can approach its theoretical maximum signal-to-noise ratio is the extent to which its recorded samples actually cover the entire sampling interval which they each describe. Since the actual limit is usually set by the associated analog electronics, that should tell you something pretty important about your theory.

--best regards

I think it depends on your source. There are some sources where you could never hear a difference. But to my ears I can tell the difference in a source I am familiar with between 44.1 and 192k big time. Should we record everything in 192k? No but my point is if your archiving why not record in the best sample rate possible if the method of storage is cheap. You can always down sample later on. There are sometimes when going to 192 shows defects in the recording that 44.1 does not show and sometimes these defects make the music sound better. As I am sure a professional such as your self knows there is no perfect solution for every situation. Only best "guesses" I dont think 192 is for everything.. but if you dont have the years of experience that both you and I possess sometimes its better to just dump everything at 192 and then subjectively try different sample rates when time allows at a later date.



For me its about data the more data you have the better your recreation of a waveform will be. Its pretty simple. But again there are some sources that actually get hurt by increasing the "focus" if you will of the converter by increasing the bit rate and sample rate. For me there is no absolutes in audio there are only things that work for some and things that work for others.

Anyone that says this is how it is, imo is usually wrong. I have heard 44.1 sound amazing I have heard 192 sound amazing I think when we consider the source we then can find the best sample rate for the given material.

I was only generalizing because unless your going to "audition" different sample rates and find the best one that works for your source then it might be better to sample high now and downsample later on. I am certainly not a digital expert. But I know what I like to hear and my ears are still in very good shape.

I appreciate your experience here and your input into all subjects. Audio is subjective sample rates for me are also something that can be subject to opinion. I think that's why we have more then one sample rate to pick from. I also feel as I stated before that high sample rates on shitty converters = shitty sound. But a high sample rate on a great converter with a very good slew rate is something to listen to IMO.

BTW my theory of how a-d converters work is correct. Here is a picture that best illustrates the sampling and chopping up of a complex waveform into voltage values and then into 0's and 1's. It would make more sense that the more conversion points of voltage that you have them more likely you are to capture the real source but again I did also state that high sample rates are not for every source. The other factor that is rarely talked about is how fast a converter can do this math and if there are any delays in processing what effect does that have on the bit stream. There are many facets to the digital world sample rate and bit rate are only a few.

Chris


« Last Edit: May 29, 2008, 01:25:57 PM by Church-Audio »
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adrianf74

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Re: Transfer from Analog to Digital
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2008, 04:11:23 PM »
Chris, I think the point that's trying to be stressed here is that going beyond 44.1/24 for an analog-based source makes NO difference what-so-ever as there is no sonic benefit from a science standard.

It may "sound" better at 192, but is it?  Scientifically, it isn't.  If the data isn't there to begin with you're just wasting space.

The initial person mentioned they wanted to burn stuff to CD, that's the other reason I stressed 44.1/24.  24 would have to be downsampled but at least it's in a better than CD format.  Nothing is gained by the larger file size; except for wasted space.

 

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