Taperssection.com
Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: stevetoney on March 04, 2010, 11:57:21 AM
-
I almost posted this question on another thread that asked where to buy DAT tapes, but it would have hijacked that thread, so I started a new thread...
I'm curious, since DAT users can't seem to find DAT tapes many places anymore and since, when they do find them, a box of 50 tapes costs almost as much as some of the 24bit digital recorders, I'm curious what are the reasons that people are still using 16bit DAT machines.
-
I almost posted this question on another thread that asked where to buy DAT tapes, but it would have hijacked that thread, so I started a new thread...
I'm curious, since DAT users can't seem to find DAT tapes many places anymore and since, when they do find them, a box of 50 tapes costs almost as much as some of the 24bit digital recorders, I'm curious what are the reasons that people are still using 16bit DAT machines.
i guess if it has to be explained..you wouldn't truly understand anyhow.
(not trying to sound condescending)
But, if its working for someone, why would you change to flash or whatever? I,myself,like having physical masters to hold onto (MDs) and i find that IMO, my 16 bit hi-md decks make just as good a recording as anything else,and they are smaller than just about anything else...so, until the time comes where i cant get blanks, i see no reason to change formats. Im sure, the same goes for the DAT guys.
-
i guess if it has to be explained..you wouldn't truly understand anyhow.
(not trying to sound condescending)
FWIW, I understand your explanation...partially
I compare your response a little to my favorite piece of clothing. It's a Duckhead hoodie that's probably 100 years old (OK maybe 20) that has holes in it. It's mine...I've worn it forever...I like it...it's part of my identity...why would I ever, E-V-E-R throw it out?
Having said this, my wife, bless her heart, simply can't fathom why I would ever be seen in public with it on.
It seems that the ability to keep masters is a motivator for people, but I guess what I still don't understand is the logic behind that. Since they're digital tapes...what's a master? For example, I consider my master to be my raw untouched digital file...which is stored on my harddrive which is backed up. So I DEFINITELY keep my raw masters too...in two places. Harddrive space being so much less expensive than DAT tape, still not sure I understand the 'to keep my masters' logic.
I don't mean to sound like I'm challenging the logic...just trying to understand if there's something that I haven't considered.
-
I can understand the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality
but, for me, having to deal with a tape flip is a deal breaker.
Hit record and "forget about it" is much better for me.
-
I probably miss using my Sony D5s more than my DATs :'(
but after switching 4 years ago to my P2, and learning to use it
plus the fact that tapes are nearly obsolete... I'm glad I did
BTW... I have an 18 year old hooded sweatshirt like yours
but I only wear it around the house
-
BTW... I have an 18 year old hooded sweatshirt like yours
but I only wear it around the house
LOL, ya got me there. I guess my hoodie might make it out to Home Depot now and then, but that's about it. :)
-
i guess if it has to be explained..you wouldn't truly understand anyhow.
(not trying to sound condescending)
FWIW, I understand your explanation...partially
I compare your response a little to my favorite piece of clothing. It's a Duckhead hoodie that's probably 100 years old (OK maybe 20) that has holes in it. It's mine...I've worn it forever...I like it...it's part of my identity...why would I ever, E-V-E-R throw it out?
Having said this, my wife, bless her heart, simply can't fathom why I would ever be seen in public with it on.
It seems that the ability to keep masters is a motivator for people, but I guess what I still don't understand is the logic behind that. Since they're digital tapes...what's a master? For example, I consider my master to be my raw untouched digital file...which is stored on my harddrive which is backed up. So I DEFINITELY keep my raw masters too...in two places. Harddrive space being so much less expensive than DAT tape, still not sure I understand the 'to keep my masters' logic.
I don't mean to sound like I'm challenging the logic...just trying to understand if there's something that I haven't considered.
Personally speaking too, while i completely acknowledge my 16 bit Mds are not technically as "good" as some of the high end digital recorders, i tape for myself first and foremost, and like i said, i enjoy the results thoroughly. I dont fancy myself some kind of legit "archivist" or someone like that who would probably be more inclined to always use the most current,state-of-the-art equipment whether it was really making an improvement on the sound or not.
-
flash / hardrive technology requires a set of computer skills that not everyone has. So DAT allows digital recording without the computer aspect, for some folk (myself included for quite a long time)
I'm thankful for it, in that it forced this old dog to learn how to use a computer.
-
^ Thanks frenchy. Hadn't thought of that and it's a good'un. Not only 'puter skills, but if you don't have a computer, it would be pretty much impossible to make use of a flash based recorder.
-
I'm waiting for a hand-held $200, 4-channel machine, with internal mics, line-in, XLR-in with phantom, and 16/24-bit RCA SPDIF in. Might be a while....... :)
-
^ Thanks frenchy. Hadn't thought of that and it's a good'un. Not only 'puter skills, but if you don't have a computer, it would be pretty much impossible to make use of a flash based recorder.
Why? One can still record then use the same deck as a playback source when patched into your home stereo system. The taper has unrestricted playback of his recording without a computer; even without a home system most flash recorders have a headphone out jack. All lack of a computer does is prevents electronic distribution by the original taper and processing on a DAW. Hook the recording deck, whether it be tape or flash based, into a mixing console and you can even do minimal editing/mixing as long as you record the output on a second recorder.
-
Another factor, at least for some touring bands recording their own shows, is the ease of use with DATs with no requirement to backup files and deal with them. Both Little Feat and the Radiators still master their shows from the SBD on DATs. All you have to do is make the tape, write the show date on the J-card, and drop it in a box. No late night transferring from flash cards to computer drives, no post work required at all at that point.
16bit is usually fine for most applicatons. A typical rock concert might have a dynamic range of 30-40 db max, and that is mosty with the crowd breaks factored in. If you looked at the dynamic range of a full song without the crowd break, you could see actual effective dynamic ranges no more than 20 db.
This is why DAT is just fine still for many users, IMO.
-
No late night transferring from flash cards to computer drives, no post work required at all at that point.
Until you actually want to use the tape for something..then you're about three hours behind the curve. Eventually that time catches up with you. It takes me 5 minutes to rip a CF card to my computer. It was the real time playback of 3 hours shows that made me switch away from DAT decks.
(edit to add-... and saving hundreds a year on DAT tapes!)
-
I almost posted this question on another thread that asked where to buy DAT tapes, but it would have hijacked that thread, so I started a new thread...
I'm curious, since DAT users can't seem to find DAT tapes many places anymore and since, when they do find them, a box of 50 tapes costs almost as much as some of the 24bit digital recorders, I'm curious what are the reasons that people are still using 16bit DAT machines.
i guess if it has to be explained..you wouldn't truly understand anyhow.
(not trying to sound condescending)
But, if its working for someone, why would you change to flash or whatever? I,myself,like having physical masters to hold onto (MDs) and i find that IMO, my 16 bit hi-md decks make just as good a recording as anything else,and they are smaller than just about anything else...so, until the time comes where i cant get blanks, i see no reason to change formats. Im sure, the same goes for the DAT guys.
Even if the format has some merits...
The existing crop of common DAT machines are nearly 20 years old.
No DAT decks are made anymore.
I would say stop mastering on DAT - and save your deck for transferring your collection. You'll have to move on sooner or later.
The tapes will probably outlast the hardware...
Plus - not to threadjack - but, I've never gotten the whole thing with DAT error correction. Are DATS bit perfect or just "bit accurate?" What is too many errors? (ie when does the signal decay?) It must start to affect the sound or signal integrity before it turns to crackling or drop outs?
-
I'm currently re-transferring another batch of DATs and kicking myself for not making the switch to flash/HD recorders earlier.
I always liked the idea of having a 'physical' master to hold onto but it's becoming clear that between the ageing tapes and ageing equipment it won't be too long before those little black cartridges are nearly useless.
And cheaper, smaller, more reliable recorders, vastly reduced media costs, no used media storage problems... Wouldn't ever want to go back.
-
http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=m38&_nkw=90m+dat&_sacat=See-All-Categories
Plenty of tapes out there. I use my M1 sometimes cuz it is much smaller than my 722, but hopefully I'll have all my dats transferred by the end of the year.
-
^ Thanks frenchy. Hadn't thought of that and it's a good'un. Not only 'puter skills, but if you don't have a computer, it would be pretty much impossible to make use of a flash based recorder.
Why? One can still record then use the same deck as a playback source when patched into your home stereo system. The taper has unrestricted playback of his recording without a computer; even without a home system most flash recorders have a headphone out jack. All lack of a computer does is prevents electronic distribution by the original taper and processing on a DAW. Hook the recording deck, whether it be tape or flash based, into a mixing console and you can even do minimal editing/mixing as long as you record the output on a second recorder.
as a side thought to this:
The flash media is getting to be near the same price or cheaper than the dat tapes - so, a "dat" taper could morph over fairly easily, and still have a hard copy, the flash card, to store for archival and playback sake.
-
^ That was my thought too. So, it costs $3.50 for a 90 minute DAT tape and a quick search on Newegg site yields lots of 4 GB SD cards at $8.50. So, basically one show goes on either 2 or 3 tapes or one SD card. That's close to a push, except that the SD media would be perhaps a little less pricey (since it's 1 hr per GB at 24bit).
-
I saw a guy running a sony D5 cassette deck not too long ago. Some guys have a rig that works for them and see no point in upgrading to new technology even if it would somehow make the process of recording somehow easier. One of the reasons I like taping from the section for GD related bands (phil, ratdog, further, etc) is that you are likely to run into someone with some really cool old school gear that he's been running for 15-20 years. I think that stuff is cool and depending on the rig it's only marginally worse technically than the $10k modern rig.
-
I use my M1 cuz it is way, way smaller than my 722. Tapes are cheap and plentiful :-)
http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=m38&_nkw=90m+dat&_sacat=See-All-Categories
...60 meter tapes, not so plentiful ;-}
http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=60m+dat&_sacat=0&_trksid=p3286.m270.l1313&_dmpt=BI_Blank_Media&_odkw=90m+dat&_osacat=0&bkBtn=1 (http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=60m+dat&_sacat=0&_trksid=p3286.m270.l1313&_dmpt=BI_Blank_Media&_odkw=90m+dat&_osacat=0&bkBtn=1)
Prices all over the place......it's a famine, I tell ya..! :-\
-
In Miami almost every time ive done audio playback for music videos, Sony or whoever the client is will send the artists' song on DAT. Kinda lame using a PD4 over a 744t all day long (IMO) but what can you do. Maybe most production companies can come up with DAT recorders with time code easier than hard disk recorders with time code?
-
I saw a guy running a sony D5 cassette deck not too long ago. Some guys have a rig that works for them and see no point in upgrading to new technology even if it would somehow make the process of recording somehow easier. One of the reasons I like taping from the section for GD related bands (phil, ratdog, further, etc) is that you are likely to run into someone with some really cool old school gear that he's been running for 15-20 years. I think that stuff is cool and depending on the rig it's only marginally worse technically than the $10k modern rig.
That post made my whole day.
I used to run into those guys often. They were the ones I always wanted to hang in the Van with after the show. They'd drool all over your itty bitty setup while you'd do the same with their Big Cassette deck.
Wasn't long before I became that guy, looking at all the MiniMe's and 722s and stuff...
I'll come up with an excuse for still running DAT soon, I promise.
Wait:
I'm waiting for a hand-held $200, 4-channel machine, with internal mics, line-in, XLR-in with phantom, and 16/24-bit RCA SPDIF in. Might be a while....... :)
There it is right there!
I haven't had a lot of cash to spread around on gear, and the gear has been changing pretty quickly. I picked up a Korg MR1 a year or so ago, and it is a great little machine, but my Oade Mod SBM-1 still makes a better recording. Honest.
I've been reading up on all the machine choices, and they are ROUGH. Until I took the time to find this board, I'd never really found as much information as I needed to suss out the trail and error stuff between the different flash-based recorders.
It's a huge step and a lot of research. Hell, I just picked up some new mics I'm going to have to learn to work, and that's also a giant chore. And that's just mics!
Really, what capnhook describes above is exactly what i want.
I want what i want without having to compromise, as I've already done that when I started taping on DAT instead of cassette. (nd there are still people who will tell you cassettes are better)
If I could have timecode on every machine made, then I'd be happy, but right now, to get what I get out of my DAT rig, I'd need to buy an M10 and a PMD661 and a lot of flash cards.
OR I could archive onto DVDs or hard discs, but, well, nothing is a nice as those little tape boxes, and nothing more recent is proven to last as long.
So, yeah, I guess I WOULD switch to compact flash tomorrow if I had about $2000 and a few weeks to learn the new stuff. Really comes down to the $. I can buy $170 of tapes and and then I'm only out the cost of tickets and drinks and I KNOW I'll get good tapes.
Does that answer anything?
It certainly doesn't answer where to find 60M DAT tapes.
;-)
-
Well, I own four DAT decks that all work flawlessly and I have 4-5 boxes of 90m DAT blanks and I don't have the cash for the type of HD recorder I'd want if I bought one. For stealth duty, I think I'd rather rely on my KM140s>MP-2>AD2K>D8 over using the A/D in all of the small HD recorders since virtually none of them have a digital input...sorry but I don't have much faith in the quality of the A/D in a ~$200 deck, so I'd rather have 16bits of A/D I like the sound of than 24bits of a file that's easy to transfer but made with an inferior A/D. Now once I have the $$ to buy a higher end HD recorder, my DATs will be collecting dust but until then...
I do record with my laptop typically when openly recording but even then I usually plug one of my DAT decks in as a back-up unless someone else is patched in as well. This has paid off a few times when I've found flaws in the master 24bit WAV, so even though my back-up source is 16bit, I've been a happy camper to have it to patch in to repair the flaws.
-
Is SCMS still an issue at all with DAT?
-
Is SCMS still an issue at all with DAT?
Has to be, as far as portables go - DAT never really made it very far. How many generations/models are there? - not too darn many.
Its always been defeatable in some fashion though...we used to use one of the Audio Alchemy DAC-in-the-box things. Today I do my DAT transfers through a Behringer Ultramatch 2696, which can control SCMS, and emphasis as well as format/src conversion.
-
16 bits sound fine to me, so I can understand nameloc1 sticking with his Hi-MD recorders because they are small. Hi-SP even sounds as good to me as PCM.
Don't understand sticking with a DAT at all though. The sound is fine when the deck is working properly, but I had to frequently get mine repaired to cure dropouts (at nearly the cost of a M-10 or R-09HR each time). Also hated the hassle of getting my DAT recordings into my computer. And I really hated having to change tapes during a show when the show lasted over 2 hours. I did use 3 hour tapes at times with no noticeable problems, but that was supposed to have the potential of causing your deck to have transport problems down the road.
I also don't get the need for hard copies of masters-I wouldn't even want to have to store them or try to find a particular recording. I'm happy just saving the digital file to a hard drive and backing it up to another drive. And I take it buying blank DAT's is getting expensive now.
-
Is SCMS still an issue at all with DAT?
Has to be, as far as portables go - DAT never really made it very far.
I will consider modern recording equipment to have come as far as when I see an inexpensive one with digi I/O ;D
-
I will consider modern recording equipment to have come as far as when I see an inexpensive one with digi I/O
They've had one for years-a rockboxed iRiver HP120. Still 16 bit, but way more convenient to use than a DAT IMO and can do quick uploads to a computer also. Even if you need to add a small preamp like a ST-9100 for recording acoustic, its still a pretty small package to carry around and has been way more reliable for me and easier to use than my DAT was.
-
Has to be, as far as portables go - DAT never really made it very far.
I will consider modern recording equipment to have come as far as when I see an inexpensive one with digi I/O ;D
The Sony D50 has a digital input (optical, though it works great with a optimod V3) and is about $450 street price, and the Marantz PMD661 has a coax digi-in for about $600. I think that puts them right into the same cost range as the old D8 or M1 dats, less considering inflation and the value of the dollar.
At any rate, I started weening myself from DAT starting with a Nomad Jukebox (then rockboxed H120/H140, Microtrack, etc, etc) many years ago -- pretty much as soon as I found out that the JB3 would work in our applications. The amount of money I spent on DAT decks and especially REPAIRS in just a few short years was just obscene.
Edit: Oh, and on prices, I skipped the MT and MTII, which are pretty much dirt cheap these days, though quirky and hard to work with in the field (though perhaps no worse than a D8 with tape misloads, etc).
-
I will consider modern recording equipment to have come as far as when I see an inexpensive one with digi I/O
They've had one for years-a rockboxed iRiver HP120. Still 16 bit, but way more convenient to use than a DAT IMO and can do quick uploads to a computer also. Even if you need to add a small preamp like a ST-9100 for recording acoustic, its still a pretty small package to carry around and has been way more reliable for me and easier to use than my DAT was.
digi I/O ??
-
Yes the 120/140's have digi in/out.
The later 320/340'd don't have digi-in but may have digi-out (I'm too lazy to try to look it up at the moment).
-
I've not cared about digi-i/o since I gave up DAT. weird little game we play.
-
After reading responses, I respect that people stick with DAT. However, I do have to wonder whether some of you that responded aren't fully aware of the current state of the flash based recorder.
Are you aware that the price of R-09HR recorders has come down to $250 and MTII are now something like $170?!?
That means you could be recording in 24bit, without SCMS, without needing to transfer tapes in real-time, for about the price of one box of 50 DAT tapes?!?
The R-09HR is easily as capable or moreso as a Sony D8, in terms of features and reliability.
I don't want to insult anyone's intelligence with this post. But if you weren't aware of the current price point for entering the flash recorder market...well I'm just sayin'.
IMHO, recording with the extra headroom offered by 24bit alone is worth $170!
-
^^^ what he said
And once you go flash/hd recorder and experience how fast transfers are I doubt you'll want to go back to DAT. I can't think of anyone I know, or know of, who returned to DAT.
If you're happy with your current setup there is no real reason to switch but when something happens to your DAT deck I seriously recommend moving to flash/hd recording rather than getting your DAT deck repaired.
-
I will consider modern recording equipment to have come as far as when I see an inexpensive one with digi I/O
They've had one for years-a rockboxed iRiver HP120. Still 16 bit, but way more convenient to use than a DAT IMO and can do quick uploads to a computer also. Even if you need to add a small preamp like a ST-9100 for recording acoustic, its still a pretty small package to carry around and has been way more reliable for me and easier to use than my DAT was.
digi I/O ??
Sorry Cap'n, I missed the I/O part and only read your post as digi-in. As noted, the H120/H140 has digi I/O, as does the Sony D50. With next to no patchers these days, esp digital patchers, and the ability to skip real-time transfer and just transfer the data from the flash card, I see very little need for digital out anymore.
-
I will consider modern recording equipment to have come as far as when I see an inexpensive one with digi I/O
They've had one for years-a rockboxed iRiver HP120. Still 16 bit, but way more convenient to use than a DAT IMO and can do quick uploads to a computer also. Even if you need to add a small preamp like a ST-9100 for recording acoustic, its still a pretty small package to carry around and has been way more reliable for me and easier to use than my DAT was.
digi I/O ??
Sorry Cap'n, I missed the I/O part and only read your post as digi-in. As noted, the H120/H140 has digi I/O, as does the Sony D50. With next to no patchers these days, esp digital patchers, and the ability to skip real-time transfer and just transfer the data from the flash card, I see very little need for digital out anymore.
Sorry, should have specified RCA SPDIF I/O. Of course, the D50 has optical digi I/O, but I think optical is too fragile for field use.
And I'm looking for a $200 modern recorder.....aren't the H120/H140 and the others discontinued, er, obsolete as DAT?
I have high expectations on what my next 4-channel field recorder must have. The H4n comes close......
edit ------ H4n, not H4 (close, but no cigar)
-
I have high expectations on what my next 4-channel field recorder must have. The H4 comes close......
What recorder are you talking about? The Zoom H4 isn't a 4 track recorder. The H4n is, but you have to use the built in mics for 2 of the channels.
I wouldn't use anything from Zoom if you gave it to me. I have an H4 (bought before I heard of taperssection) and it really sucks. The H4n is supposed to be a lot better, but I still wouldn't trust anything from Zoom.
-
.....aren't the H120/H140 and the others discontinued, er, obsolete as DAT? ???
-
Yeah they don't make them anymore, but they turn up in the yard sale here all the time (or on E-Bay but often too expensive there).
-
And I'm looking for a $200 modern recorder....
I was going off your earlier comment about modern recorders achieving what had been done by DAT. There were never any DAT recorders that had a new street price of $200 or less. Thus the comment about the PMD661 for instance.
If what you want is a $200 recorder with RCA digital, the Microtrack II is your only current bet. It only has digi-in, though as I said, I'm not sure what the draw is for a digi-out.
As to a new sub-$200 digital flash recorder that has both digital in and out on RCA, I'd guess you will never see it, no matter how far down the road you wait. Between companies moving away from digital anything let alone digi-out, and moving away from RCA connectors, and the price requirement, my bet is you'd be better off deciding which are the most important aspects you need since you'll never get them all in one recorder.
Sorry, not trying to be a naysayer, just my read on the reality of the situation.
-
And I'm looking for a $200 modern recorder.....aren't the H120/H140 and the others discontinued, er, obsolete as DAT?
They might be discontinued but they certainly aren't obsolete: user-replaceable batteries and hard drives (even the option of swapping the HD for flash media) mean that the recorder could potentially last for years at minimal cost.
Plus, even if the recorder itself craps out you'll still have access to your recordings without having to replace it with a similar machine, or even replace it at all.
I'm rueing the decision to stick with DAT for as long as I did now I'm having to make repeated transfers of tapes and patch different passes together in order to get a glitchless transfer. The only other option would seem to be getting my decks serviced (a remote and costly option) or delving back into the Ebay used DAT deck lucky dip...
-
I have friends still taping with DAT because they have to have a physical master of the show. They shrug their shoulders at 24 bit.
-
In my experience, DATs degrade and start sloughing off tape particle at a point far earlier in their life than cassettes. I've had a bunch of problems with old dats doing this and clogging heads.
-
lower capacity CF media is dropping down to the price of DAT media. I would assume when bought in large quantities one could use 1gb, 2gb or 4gb CF cards once and the store. You can probably get these a 7-11 when in a pinch.
-
In my experience, DATs degrade and start sloughing off tape particle at a point far earlier in their life than cassettes. I've had a bunch of problems with old dats doing this and clogging heads.
Depends on how you store them and what part of the country you live in. I live in upstate NY and have DAT tapes that were mastered as far back as 1989 and they haven't failed. That being said, I have transfered all DAT tapes to DVD.
I gave up on DAT when I went to laptop taping but still used it in situations where I had to stealth. I bought a MTII a while back and have been very pleased with it. It has recorded flawlessly, with the
exception of one time.
I not sure I buy the computer thing. Everyone on this board has a computer they use. Software for transfering files is cheap and sometimes free. It is a no brainer to switch away from DAT. You'll save a lot of money not buying tapes plus save the environment, too. One tour of DAT Tapes is what you could buy a new recording device for. Make the jump. Stop dragging your knuckles.
-
16 bits sound fine to me, so I can understand nameloc1 sticking with his Hi-MD recorders because they are small. Hi-SP even sounds as good to me as PCM.
[snip]
I also don't get the need for hard copies of masters-I wouldn't even want to have to store them or try to find a particular recording. I'm happy just saving the digital file to a hard drive and backing it up to another drive. And I take it buying blank DAT's is getting expensive now.
Interesting.
So you are saying that, like the future of everybody's record collection (which will one day simply be a searchable database in iTunes, with no cases or media, but just a bank of hard drives), the shows you tape will be archived on a bank of 1TB drives, that you will eventually expand as you make more tapes.
That is a pretty cool thought. I have about 1000 master DATs. They are currently stored in 4 large bins and labeled (as best as possible and sorted by date) because, lets face it, I don't need them on the wall to browse through. That is way too much. I listen to quite a few of them regularly, and can find what I am looking for pretty quickly with a few exceptions.
Invariably, if I listen to one, I transfer it at the same time, edit it that week and archive it to DVD.
DVDs have proven to fail on me, but not as much as CDRs. MAN, I hated CDRs, esp when someone would send you one with a label on it that would eventually warp and not play. But there was a period of 8 or more years when that is all anyone would send you. The majority of traders were CDR-only...
I really like the idea of thinking that every recording I made was archived on a searchable hard drive, but that is a librarian's full time 3-year job at a time when we all have to work twice as hard just to stay employed.
I really like having hard copies of my masters, though, so I'd bet, for important shows, I would probably still run backup DAT while the medium lasts.
Don't you miss labeling all those J-Cards when you'd mail out copies to your friends?
;-)
-
16 bits sound fine to me, so I can understand nameloc1 sticking with his Hi-MD recorders because they are small. Hi-SP even sounds as good to me as PCM.
[snip]
I also don't get the need for hard copies of masters-I wouldn't even want to have to store them or try to find a particular recording. I'm happy just saving the digital file to a hard drive and backing it up to another drive. And I take it buying blank DAT's is getting expensive now.
Interesting.
So you are saying that, like the future of everybody's record collection (which will one day simply be a searchable database in iTunes, with no cases or media, but just a bank of hard drives), the shows you tape will be archived on a bank of 1TB drives, that you will eventually expand as you make more tapes.
That is a pretty cool thought. I have about 1000 master DATs. They are currently stored in 4 large bins and labeled (as best as possible and sorted by date) because, lets face it, I don't need them on the wall to browse through. That is way too much. I listen to quite a few of them regularly, and can find what I am looking for pretty quickly with a few exceptions.
Invariably, if I listen to one, I transfer it at the same time, edit it that week and archive it to DVD.
DVDs have proven to fail on me, but not as much as CDRs. MAN, I hated CDRs, esp when someone would send you one with a label on it that would eventually warp and not play. But there was a period of 8 or more years when that is all anyone would send you. The majority of traders were CDR-only...
I really like the idea of thinking that every recording I made was archived on a searchable hard drive, but that is a librarian's full time 3-year job at a time when we all have to work twice as hard just to stay employed.
I really like having hard copies of my masters, though, so I'd bet, for important shows, I would probably still run backup DAT while the medium lasts.
Don't you miss labeling all those J-Cards when you'd mail out copies to your friends?
;-)
Devils advocate.
You'd be completely f***ed if you 1000 DAT collection went down in a fire or flood. How many years worth of masters would be gone???
Yeah, it takes time to master your DATs and that's a total PITA...but no offense man, but that's exactly one of the biggest problems with DAT, man! Why keep going down that road?!?
For those that you've got transferred to DVD, then it's trivial to transfer them to harddrive. I _NEVER_ rely on CD or DVD...they have a very VERY high failure rare with lots of my own DVD burns failing within a couple years.
The key to the harddrive plan though is to buy TWO large drives and then when you get everything backed up, take the second drive with you to work. I mean, there's plenty of stuff I'd probably consider more valuable to lose in a house fire, but if the house DID go up in smoke it would be nice to know that my music didn't go with it.
-
The key to the harddrive plan though is to buy TWO large drives and then when you get everything backed up, take the second drive with you to work.
That is the rough part! You really need twice as much space as you thought. But the hard drive space is trivial compared to what the other media takes up/
There was a fantastic piece on CBS Sunday Morning about archival audio & video where the Smithsonian expert pointed out that now EVERYTHING must be backed up to a new format every five years.
Heh.
I just realized that with 1000 DATs I'm not supposed to ever buy more. Just make an archival transfer and record over an old one until I finally buy a some "new" gear.
;-)
-
That is the rough part! You really need twice as much space as you thought.
Not necessarily, you could have a RAID array with multiple hard drives....
-
I picked up a Korg MR1 a year or so ago, and it is a great little machine, but my Oade Mod SBM-1 still makes a better recording. Honest.
no it doesn't!!!!
-
My 722 hiccuped when it ran out of power during playback and about 10 tracks aren't appearing in the list of files. I just moved, so nothing is put together, but I need to mount it from a computer to see if the tracks still exist. +1 to DAT.
-
I'm on Edirol R09HR, but I have my Sony D8 in my closet for sentimental reasons. I will use it once in awhile as a second deck patched into someone else in case the Edirol has issues. But I prefer not to use tape anymore. I've been burned by stuck tape in the D8, drop-outs, tape running out before I change them, etc. I enjoy having everything on a memory card.
And word of warning: Always bring an extra card in case shit happens. I've had instances where the Edirol doesn't load a card it loaded previously and the spare card was required to tape the show. Then, I re-format the card on a computer and then re-format the card on the Edirol to get it loaded. I believe that this issue is due to me deleting files on the card from a computer instead of from the Edirol itself. Every now and then, I re-format the card on the Edirol just to keep it sane too.
-
After reading responses, I respect that people stick with DAT. However, I do have to wonder whether some of you that responded aren't fully aware of the current state of the flash based recorder.
Are you aware that the price of R-09HR recorders has come down to $250 and MTII are now something like $170?!?
That means you could be recording in 24bit, without SCMS, without needing to transfer tapes in real-time, for about the price of one box of 50 DAT tapes?!?
The R-09HR is easily as capable or moreso as a Sony D8, in terms of features and reliability.
I don't want to insult anyone's intelligence with this post. But if you weren't aware of the current price point for entering the flash recorder market...well I'm just sayin'.
IMHO, recording with the extra headroom offered by 24bit alone is worth $170!
For starters, I already have about five boxes of leftover 90m DAT tapes, so no need on my end to spend any $$ I don't have on tapes...when those are used up (and at my present rate of catching shows, that will be a while...), I obviously will not be spending $$ on more. In the meanwhile, I don't have the funds to shell out for the deck I'd want (minimum $600). As for the R-09HR, I recognize it is small and nice for stealthing, but beyond that it hardly would suit my needs. I hardly put much faith in the quality of the pre or A/D in a gizmo that small. There's no free lunch in this world - a recorder that small and that cheap had to have corners cut somewhere. As it stands now, my DAT recorders have spidf inputs, so I can run a digital feed from my AD2K/MiniMe/MP-2, and when running a sbd feed, they have XLR inputs and never clip, as opposed to trying to cram a balanced sbd feed down into an 1/8" mini jack...thanks but no. So at this point with my $$ limitations, I'll take 16 bits of higher end pre and A/D over 24bits processed by a $200 recorder. Yes, replacement of my DAT recorders in inevitable and I clearly understand the benefits all the way around with newer technology, but until I have the $$ to do it right, I'll stick with what I have.
-
I've used a D-8 since 1996. Aside from some issues with 90m tapes, I've never had the problems mentioned here. As for the cost of blanks, I guess I do not worry about it. I get mine through my old friends at Masterpiece AV, although I've been warned that they are getting harder to find. Blank DATs are still cheaper than ordering downloads or buying USBs or CDs.
One thing I have noticed recently - no one asks for patches from me when they see I'm using DAT. Not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing...
-
For starters, I already have about five boxes of leftover 90m DAT tapes, so no need on my end to spend any $$ I don't have on tapes...when those are used up (and at my present rate of catching shows, that will be a while...), I obviously will not be spending $$ on more. In the meanwhile, I don't have the funds to shell out for the deck I'd want (minimum $600). As for the R-09HR, I recognize it is small and nice for stealthing, but beyond that it hardly would suit my needs. I hardly put much faith in the quality of the pre or A/D in a gizmo that small. There's no free lunch in this world - a recorder that small and that cheap had to have corners cut somewhere. As it stands now, my DAT recorders have spidf inputs, so I can run a digital feed from my AD2K/MiniMe/MP-2, and when running a sbd feed, they have XLR inputs and never clip, as opposed to trying to cram a balanced sbd feed down into an 1/8" mini jack...thanks but no. So at this point with my $$ limitations, I'll take 16 bits of higher end pre and A/D over 24bits processed by a $200 recorder. Yes, replacement of my DAT recorders in inevitable and I clearly understand the benefits all the way around with newer technology, but until I have the $$ to do it right, I'll stick with what I have.
[/quote]
Since you have an outboard A to D you could buy a MTII and CF for around $200 and not worry about using the internal converters. That is what I do and after 400 sessions on the MTII I have only had one recording problem. You would also be able to record higher rez, if that matters to you.
-
Someone will have to pry my TCD D8 out of my dying hand,I'm taking it with me when I go...best piece of equipment I ever owned hands down... ;D
-
Had my first CF failure last week. Luckily it was a chatty Lubriphonic show in Telluride, and Barrett was there to get it. Listened to it on my headphones on the P2, pulled it out to transfer it, and it would never open. Card will not empty or reformat on my PC or in the P2......wtf??? ???
anyway, i only use DAT if i am covering a festival and have more rooms/stages than i do non-DAT machines (WMOD HDP2 or WMOD 661). So i might break out the m1 next month for the durango meltdown........damn the real time transfer though!
-
You might check out the Computer Recording forum's stickied readme and its links to a thread or two about dealing with corrupt audio files.
-
Had my first CF failure last week. Luckily it was a chatty Lubriphonic show in Telluride, and Barrett was there to get it. Listened to it on my headphones on the P2, pulled it out to transfer it, and it would never open. Card will not empty or reformat on my PC or in the P2......wtf??? ???
anyway, i only use DAT if i am covering a festival and have more rooms/stages than i do non-DAT machines (WMOD HDP2 or WMOD 661). So i might break out the m1 next month for the durango meltdown........damn the real time transfer though!
^
Data Recovery links: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=117279.0
R-Studio has worked for me in the past.
Good luck!
-
Had my first CF failure last week. Luckily it was a chatty Lubriphonic show in Telluride, and Barrett was there to get it. Listened to it on my headphones on the P2, pulled it out to transfer it, and it would never open. Card will not empty or reformat on my PC or in the P2......wtf??? ???
anyway, i only use DAT if i am covering a festival and have more rooms/stages than i do non-DAT machines (WMOD HDP2 or WMOD 661). So i might break out the m1 next month for the durango meltdown........damn the real time transfer though!
^
Data Recovery links: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=117279.0
R-Studio has worked for me in the past.
Good luck!
HDP2 cf card issues...... I don't like the sound of that.