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Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: Howid on January 27, 2005, 09:47:15 PM
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I upgraded my firmware, like suggested, and did a test run with my new mics. Basically, I did a little talking and blasted my stereo really loud. When playing back my recording, it was barely audible. The volume was really low. Is there a setting I need to adjust or something?
Thanks :)
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were you running mics>jb3? What were your meters doing during the recording?
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What mics are you using? Any pre between the mics and JB3?
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if you run mics > bat box > jb3, this most likely will be the case. try boosting the gain on the jb3, that should raise it a bit. if you're still not happy with the levels, try normalizing it post.
i never got great levels on my jb3 until i started running an external pre like the ua-5 or a v3.
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if you run mics > bat box > jb3, this most likely will be the case.
I get great levels on my JB3, but I've heard from other people that they get low levels.
I generally run +3 or so gain to be cautious, plus a little 2-3dB post gain.
Perhaps some SP battery boxes give out a lower signal than others???
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i thnk it depends a lot on the mics you use as well.
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I'll just say this while we're waiting for a reply on the mic set up. I use the Corse Sound Stealth Cardiods, and pushing th eJB3 to +12dB does squat. The mics just don't run hot enough with the BB.
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I have had this problem for quite some time, and it is really fucking annoying. I would not even bother with Corse Sound mics into JB3 unless you have a nice clean preamp. I am running come CMC-8's right now (see my signature thingy) and that works just fine. You will need a preamp for acoustic type stuff, but can get reasonable levels at a rock show. Even the most insanely loud shows that i have been to never overload the jukebox with any mics i have ever had. Get used to it, it is a pain in the ass. For the longest time i was running LC CSB's > SPSB-1 or 3 > JB3 and I would just get as close to the stacks as possible, and boost by 20db afterwards to get it up to 0dB. Now, with the CMC-8s, it usually only takes 5-8dB boost to get it up to 0dB.
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These are the mics I got:
http://www.giant-squid-audio-lab.com/gs/gs-cardbattery1.html
I was told by many that I wouldn't need a preamp and what I had would be fine. The gain was set to the default 0.
The meters were moving a little (about a 1/3 of the way up), but not as much as I expected with the volume I was putting through them. I even screamed really loud into the mics and they barely moved.
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You're getting a hotter signal with those giant squids than I do with the CSSC's. If you're 1/3 of the way up on the levels at 0dB, push it up a little, maybe in the +3 - +5dB range. That should get you pretty close to where you want to be. With the CSSC's and the JB3 at +12dB I am barley even making it to the 1/3 mark.
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Cool, Ill try it out and let you know :)
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I would not push the levels on the JB3 EVER. What you will notice, even at say, +4dB line-in boost, is some beeping periodically in the recording. It is not too pronounced, but it is there. If you get a good signal, get a preamp, that is the only way to do it unless you boost post recording. But even then, if the signal is tooo weak, you have problems boosting to listenable levels without it sounding like ass.
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I would not push the levels on the JB3 EVER...If you get a good signal, get a preamp, that is the only way to do it unless you boost post recording. But even then, if the signal is tooo weak, you have problems boosting to listenable levels without it sounding like ass.
So, I assume you mean "If you dont get a good signal, get a preamp"?...
And, Im confused, lol, many sources from here and the manufacturer told me I dont need a preamp, now I do?
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I had the same issue last weekend when I did a test of my new mics. Still havent' had a chance to do a live test.
Ok, I'm playing around w/ my new mics. I'm running SP-CMC-2 > SP-SPSB-1 > JB3. I'm taping a CD playing in my stereo. I cranked my stereo up pretty loud. I could hear it in every room in the house. I had the gain on the battery box all the way up, and the gain on the JB3 set to +12. The mics were about 3 feet from the speakers. However, the levels on the recording are pretty low. I understand a concert will be much louder than my test, but this just seems really low.
Does this seem normal to you guys?
Here's a screenshot of the levels in Cool Edit Pro.
I also attached a 10 sec unedited mp3.
Check out the second to last post in the following thread if you want to see the screenshot or hear the sample.
http://www.taperssection.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=33382.0
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Seems that is the same peoblem I am having. Hopefully someone will have a non-preamp fix for this.
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you're best off running the JB3 on line-in at +12dB. Here's why (http://members.rogers.com/traderdave/audio/JB3analog/JB3%20Analog%20recording.htm)
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Thanks for the link. It was an interesting read. I'll just have to see how my mics sound in a live situation. Howid let me know how your levels come out whenever you get a chance at a live test. I probably won't hit up a show for a couple weeks.
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you're best off running the JB3 on line-in at +12dB. Here's why (http://members.rogers.com/traderdave/audio/JB3analog/JB3%20Analog%20recording.htm)
Thanks for this info... So, what of the beeping described by "kfrinkle"
...I would not push the levels on the JB3 EVER. What you will notice, even at say, +4dB line-in boost, is some beeping periodically in the recording.
Is the person doing the testing in that tutorial discussing something diferent?
Thanks again :)
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ok, I changed my dB settings to +3 and it was a bit better, at least I can hear my recordings better. I guess the true test will be at a live recording.
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you can always normalize in post too.
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Seriously, tape a few times, at a not so loud show with the line-in and boost by 12dB. you will hear the whirring and beeping of the hard drive. This is from experience that I say this, and many other people have this problem as well. Even for heavier shows, listen to the quiet parts, and you will hear it - especially on +12dB boost. I have heard the beeping even at +4dB boost for a quieter show... it happens.
you're best off running the JB3 on line-in at +12dB. Here's why (http://ca.geocities.com/dkleined@rogers.com/audio/JB3analog/JB3_Analog_recording.htm)
Thanks for this info... So, what of the beeping described by "kfrinkle"
...I would not push the levels on the JB3 EVER. What you will notice, even at say, +4dB line-in boost, is some beeping periodically in the recording.
Is the person doing the testing in that tutorial discussing something diferent?
Thanks again :)
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you can always normalize in post too.
Whats this mean? (n00bie here) lol
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what kind of Batt box are you guys running?
Raphael
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Normalize in post refers to using a program such as Soundforge 7 that has the normalize feature. It will boost the sound. You can get a 1 month trial of soundforge. Just google it.
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what kind of Batt box are you guys running?
Raphael
Mine is connected to my mics, just have to slap a 9 Volt into it.
Normalize in post refers to using a program such as Soundforge 7 that has the normalize feature.
Cool, I understand now. Thanks
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what kind of Batt box are you guys running?
Raphael
Mine is connected to my mics, just have to slap a 9 Volt into it.
so no bass roll off right?
Raphael
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Not that Im aware of, here's a pic...
http://www.giant-squid-audio-lab.com/gs/gs-cardbattery1.html
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ok just for get i said any thing
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I emailed Darren at Squid and this is what was said...
> I turned up my gain to +3dB and it got a
> little better, but I hear bad things about
> messing with the gain on a JB3.
> Have you encounterd recording volume issues with this mic and if so,
was
> there a fix?
Hello,
In a concert setting you will not need a preamp. Crank your stereo up
to 120db, turn the levels up all the way on the NJB, and aim the mics
almost to where the speakers are at. You will get good levels. Also, a
fresh or freshly charged 9 volt battery is needed.
> may have to lug around a preamp now.
Not for concerts. These days a preamp is needed when someone has a
recorder that has recording levels can't be adjusted.
Darren
So, seems during an actual concert setting, these mics will pick up fine. He also mentioned turning the JB3 settings all the way up. Odd, I guess it all depends on the unit whether or not one hears those beeps or not?
Anyway, Ill just test it at a live show. I have a a buddy who will let me test this on his band next weekend. I'll post some sound samples.
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it does not matter WHAT mics you use, when using the built in preamp to boost levels, you WILL get the weird beeping noise, it might only be on terribly quiet parts, but it will be there. I have 2 JB3s and it happens on both. did i just get unlucky? You are best off not using gain on JB3 and normalizing (or using Wavelabs ME Compressor without tweaking anything, it is the cleanest booster out there)... am I wrong here? people need to chirp in, but this is my experience, and once again, it does NOT depend on mics...
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No problem, bro. I respect what you said and will try this during my recording, Im just sharing the email I got from the manufacturer of my mics. Dont get me wrong, Im to new to do any disagreeing, lol.
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> I turned up my gain to +3dB and it got a
> little better, but I hear bad things about
> messing with the gain on a JB3.
> Have you encounterd recording volume issues with this mic and if so,
was
> there a fix?
Hello,
In a concert setting you will not need a preamp. Crank your stereo up
to 120db, turn the levels up all the way on the NJB, and aim the mics
almost to where the speakers are at. You will get good levels. Also, a
fresh or freshly charged 9 volt battery is needed.
> may have to lug around a preamp now.
Not for concerts. These days a preamp is needed when someone has a
recorder that has recording levels can't be adjusted.
Darren
huh, the contents of his response are absurd.
marc
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I've used the CSSC > JB3 set-up mutliple times, with the JB3 set at +12dB. I keep hearing about these beeps every 10secs or whatever, but I have never noticed it. I don't think, in a rock setting, that it will ever get quiet enough to hear them. Don't know about quiter shows.
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huh, the contents of his response are absurd.
marc
Can you elaborate?
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Karl - the hard drive noise a.k.a. the beeping. I know we've chatted about this but for the benefit of others, yes it exists and you're hearing it because your mics' sensitivity (output) is too low to drive proper line levels. You are not avoiding it by keeping the JB3 gain down. In order to get the music back to listening level you're gonna crank up the gain somewhere. Since you are recommending not to do it in the JB3, you must either be boosting in post OR just turning up the volume knob on your playback. In both cases, when you bring the music levels back up (by that same 12 dB or more), you will bring the hard drive noise back up. it doesn't matter - you are not getting away from that sound!
Try recording silence at 0 dB and +12 dB (nothing plugged into the inputs). Then boost the 0 dB version in software by 12dB. Now compare - did you beat the noise or are they the same?
The reason I suggest using +12 dB of JB3 gain is because it has other benefits, as detailed in that link. The hard drive noise is the same in all 3 approaches but the music is better using +12 on the JB3.
Wanna get rid of the hard drive noise?
best - get a preamp/a>d and use it's digital output - there won't be any noise.
better - get a preamp and boost to line level so you can record at 0 dB. In fact, it may even be better to set the JB3 to -12dB and drive a really high analog level in order to push the hard drive noise down even further relative to the music. Not tested yet, so not recommended yet.
good - if you don't have a pre use high sensitivity mics. Those GS cards ain't them.
bad - where you're at - getting annoyed by extraneous noise!
I would like to hear a sample of the hard drive noise where the JB3 was set at +12 dB and NOTHING was done in post. My guess is your levels are ridiculously low. Can you post one?
Also, I don't know what the hell Darren is talking about in that post - that's a load of crap. His prices are good if you're into budget mics, but the specs on the cards say they're very low sensitivity. You might stand a chance with the omnis in loud situations..
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dklein -
I disagree here. What I think is happening is that the built in preamp, which sits inside the JB3 (of course) doesnt really pick much up at 0dB. I will admit that it could pick something up at 0dB gain, that is what it is. BUT, with the preamp sitting next to the hard drive and what not, any time you use the gain to boost the signal, it picks up the hard drive noise at a much higher ratio (e.g. ratio of boosting hard drive noise to actual incoming signal becomes greater). Perhaps I am full of shit, I dunno. In my experience, if I leave the JB3 on 0dB gain, and boost the signal later in Wavelab, I get no beeps, even on the quiet parts. However, for instance at this Tracy Chapman show I taped not too long ago, I had it on +4dB and boosted afterwards. You can hear the beeps quite pronounced. So now when I tape quieter shows, i can use my sp-spsb-1 with preamp built in, or just boost the signal afterwards. Like I said, I could be full of shit, but this is what I have experienced so far. And since I am leaving tomorrow morning ass early for a job interview and wont be back to wednesday evening, I am sure I wont remember to check this thread again, but I hope I have made my ideas clear for all to pick apart (again!) :P
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I could be full of shit
hey - why don't you do that little experiment. Plug your mics in if you want. Won't take you more than 5 minutes and then we won't have to wonder
p.s. - I just did it again and got the same result...
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I shall when i get back from my interview, this coming weekend. see if you are correct.
I could be full of shit
hey - why don't you do that little experiment. Plug your mics in if you want. Won't take you more than 5 minutes and then we won't have to wonder
p.s. - I just did it again and got the same result...
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i taped the yeah yeah yeahs back in the day with dynamic audio bins > dynamic audio bat box (fixed gain) > jb3 (+12db) and you can't hear beeping or the hard drive spin at all. apparently i'm lucky.
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I just did the test.
1) Taped silence for 2 min at +12db on the jb3.
2) Taped silence for 2 min at 0db on the jb3 and boosted by +12db in Cool Edit Pro.
I didn't hear any difference between the two. I couldn't hear any hard drive noise or beeping on either. The snow coming from my speakers from being up that loud enough to try to hear anything and the hard drive on my computer effectively covered any noise that was recorded by my jb3.
What I did notice was that the wavform of test 1 was higher than the waveform of the test 2.
I spoke into the mics at the beginning of the tests to indicate which test was which. The levels of my voice on the first one is higher. I spoke from pretty much the same spot.
I normalized a 30 sec sample from each clip to 0db. I could easily hear beeps every 5-10 sec or so in both clips. The beeps from both tests sounded about the same loudness to me.
My conclusion: I think that the beeping from the jb3 is the same in both tests. As long as you're not listening to dead air, I don't think the beeping is a problem.
Here is are links to mp3s of my two tests
There is a short intro saying which test is which.
At about 20 sec the levels are normalized to 0db until about 50 sec.
Then the levels drop back to the "unmolested" levels.
http://www.horaenterprises.com/mp3/test1.mp3
http://www.horaenterprises.com/mp3/test2.mp3
YMMV.
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Maybe Im just not trained in the ear, but I heard no beeping.
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Listen to the segments from ~20 sec to ~50 sec. There is some beeping. When the levels aren't normalized that high, I can't hear a thing either.
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I would not push the levels on the JB3 EVER...If you get a good signal, get a preamp, that is the only way to do it unless you boost post recording. But even then, if the signal is tooo weak, you have problems boosting to listenable levels without it sounding like ass.
So, I assume you mean "If you dont get a good signal, get a preamp"?...
And, Im confused, lol, many sources from here and the manufacturer told me I dont need a preamp, now I do?
I think there's a big lie going on out there! Battery boxes do not, in fact, give line level signals.
I run mini-cardioid mics from SoundProfessionals thru a SP battery box and into an MD player/recorder and found the same thing, the levels they claimed would be line level are certainly not. I had to crank the gain on the MD up to +25-30 ! to get a good signal. My JB3 only goes up to +12 and from what I've heard you don't want to crank the gain up anyway on these.
So now I'm looking at getting a pre-amp and my bare bones system is getting more and more expensive. Isn't that always the way with hobbies?
Todd in Buffalo
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I would not push the levels on the JB3 EVER...If you get a good signal, get a preamp, that is the only way to do it unless you boost post recording. But even then, if the signal is tooo weak, you have problems boosting to listenable levels without it sounding like ass.
So, I assume you mean "If you dont get a good signal, get a preamp"?...
And, Im confused, lol, many sources from here and the manufacturer told me I dont need a preamp, now I do?
I think there's a big lie going on out there! Battery boxes do not, in fact, give line level signals.
I run mini-cardioid mics from SoundProfessionals thru a SP battery box and into an MD player/recorder and found the same thing, the levels they claimed would be line level are certainly not. I had to crank the gain on the MD up to +25-30 ! to get a good signal. My JB3 only goes up to +12 and from what I've heard you don't want to crank the gain up anyway on these.
So now I'm looking at getting a pre-amp and my bare bones system is getting more and more expensive. Isn't that always the way with hobbies?
Todd in Buffalo
lol, yeah, for sure. Seems what once seems cheap quickly tunrs to be an investment. But, as we all know, most of the time, it's worth it.
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welp, going to test this tonight. I have a friends band playing, so Ill fiddle with the gains and all that and perhaps post some snippits for feedback.
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I finally got a chance to test out my mics/jb3 in the field. The levels were fine. I ended up running my jb3 at +2db and had pretty good levels. Had to normalize a little in post, but not nearly as much as I did when I was trying to test my rig at home.
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I taped about 2 hours, still have to pull it to my computer and mess with it with Sound Forge. From my headphones, the sound is pretty low (at +12 DB!) but I think when I use Sound Forge to normalize, I may be suprised.
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ok, I took down the test show from my JB3 and made a couple wav smaplers for the experts to hear. Any help or suggestions would be great.
This was recorded at a local bar/ restaurant about 10-12 feet from the band right in the middle. I used a camcorder case (used to transport my jb3) as a mic stand on the table we sat at. The mics were about 6 inches apart and turned to the left and to the right (they sat like this \ / ).
I used the Giant Squid Cardioids and my JB3 with the gain turned up to +12dB like was suggested. These two samples are one raw and one that I normalized in Sound Forge 7.
Here are the links... (they were too big to attach to the board, so I uploaded them to my server).
http://www.bdlab.com/sampler_12db_raw.wav
http://www.bdlab.com/sampler_12db_normalized.wav
Any feedback would be great.
Thanks for helping me get this far!
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What kind of feedback are you after? The immediate thing that jumps out is the lack of bottom end. Things really drop off below ~150 Hz. This is probably just the sound of the cardiod capsules in use. Giant Squid says the specs are +/- 4dB from 100Hz - 12k. You might want to do some eq'g to get that sounding reasonable. To be honest, I wouldn't really consider that a 'music recording' capsule.
As far as using a preamp goes, you had about 9 dB of room on the raw file with the JB3 at +12 dB so you'd do fine with a preamp providing ~20dB of gain. But if you're going to spend some money making things sound better those mics should probably go first.