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Offline Frequincy

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Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« on: March 15, 2008, 10:07:47 PM »
Hi, I'm new here. Iv'e been in the studio recording field for some years now. I run my own comercial studio. I was trained at the Conservatory of Recording Art and Sciences in Tempe, AZ, blah, blah, blah. I really admire the taping community here. Iv'e traded and collected recordings for awhile now.

I just wanted to hear your opinions and/or techniqe regarding any processing done to your recordings after the fact. Iv'e read a lot of posts here about normalizing but not much in the way of dynamics and/or mastering. I was just curious to hear some of your opinions on that. I'm not wanting to get into the 'loudness war' debate either. I appreciate a recording with good dynamic range, but hey, that's just my humble opinion. Thanks.

Offline aegert

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2008, 02:03:19 AM »
Hey
I'm for post processing recordings big time.. I just got back from the ny funk exchange gig at a small gar in Brooklyn .. No compression on vocals.. Peaks of the band are in the -12 to -6 range but transients on vocals are at -1db... The recording definitely needs limiting and eq to manage that. This enables the rest of the music to come up 2-3db at least... The limiter on the deck is a brick wall so I don't use it.

This will not kill dynamic range...

Post eq on roll offs of sub and super frequencies helps as well..

These are way minimal edits but the end result is hugh.. You can take a -23db avg rms recording and move the rms to -19db or further and not touch dynamics at all!

One mans opinion but it works... There are plenty of other ticks to use as well this is just the small stuff. I think its important to bring over all levels up to cd range.

A :)
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Offline RobertNC

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2008, 02:21:02 AM »
I put all my effort into the show itself.  

First I try to find out what I can about the venue if I've never been there. TS is a great place to find out what the venue attitude towards tapers is, how the acoustics are, best spots to set up, etc.

Then I do whatever I can with the logistics of getting in and setting up, while trying to find a balance between respecting the venue and pulling the best tape I can.   I always have a tapers ticket if there is a section, but a lotta times I will buy a second ticket to see if it is cool to tape from a better spot than the section if there is one.  Some venues are totally cool with taping from your seat.  If not, I respect the venue's wishes and go to the section wherever it is.

Once I am set up. I just roll it and enjoy the show.  Sometimes I'm really excited about the results.  Sometimes I'm really disappointed.  Most times I am reasonably happy.  Almost always I feel like either a recording does not need any real post, or in the worst case, probably cannot be improved much by any post.

Granted, I don't really know anything about post production techniques.  But my gut feeling is that I have the sound mix of the show, the venue ambient acoustics at whatever location I end up, the crowd noise, my mic characteristics and whatever color or lack of that my gear's analog stages add, all rolled into what at the end of the night is a lot of complex factors combined into only two (or for a few four) channels of a complex sum of the information from all these many sources.

Sure you can tweak the sound some post.  But how much can you realistically do with what you end up with?  I really don't know.  I just do whatever I can going into a show, then roll tape and have a great time with it all...
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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2008, 02:50:20 AM »
I don't do anything to my tapes when I get home...  I just slap them on a CDR and listen...  If I F*** something up, that's my own fault.  I trust the soundman to make a venue sound as good as it can, I don't try to mess with it...

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Offline bhakti

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2008, 03:40:20 AM »
i have pulled some very average tapes in the past that have sounded NEAR brilliant with a bit of EQ and normalization...

often i get a tape that i just don't touch at all [very often in fact], but if you're in a part of the venue that has a bit of a bass trap or you're not quite in the sweet spot, i think a tad EQ can definitely fix a few these kind of tapes...

also, just my humble opinion...

Offline JiB97

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2008, 03:56:13 AM »
I'm in Tempe too and have had a few friends go to the Conservatory. Cool.    What studio do you run?
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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2008, 10:43:57 AM »
but if you're in a part of the venue that has a bit of a bass trap

As a n00b I'm curious what is considered a bass trap.
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Offline anhisr

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2008, 11:17:17 AM »
I record M/S most of the time so, I have to have some post production.  Since I have been doing this I find myself doing more than just the M/S mix now.  My Ween tape sounded horrible.  After a little work in Wavelab, it sounded much better and then I posted a torrent.  If I would had never worked on the show, I would have never posted.
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Offline Dede2002

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2008, 11:49:29 AM »
i have pulled some very average tapes in the past that have sounded NEAR brilliant with a bit of EQ and normalization...

often i get a tape that i just don't touch at all [very often in fact], but if you're in a part of the venue that has a bit of a bass trap or you're not quite in the sweet spot, i think a tad EQ can definitely fix a few these kind of tapes...

also, just my humble opinion...

Exactly right. Same thing here.
It's OK to know what my mics and rig "heard" last night at the club.
But what I do really care about is what my ears heard last night and what they are going to hear again in my stereo or car.
Plus, I'm a stealth taper ;). I've never had the chance to clamp my mics to no stand, choose the perfect mic configuration or anything like that.
If I can fix a tape that sounds just OK ( thanks to my stealth condition) and make it sound better, why not?
Plus, EQ is not black magic of the plague itself. You can't recreate something that is not there already (in your recording, I mean). EQing is just a way to achieve tonal balance with the sounds and frequencies you've captured on tape. Simple as that.
Just my 2 cents. I'm a purist most of the time. But I like to listen to good sounding tapes. ;)
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Offline Frequincy

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2008, 02:14:21 PM »
I'm in Tempe too and have had a few friends go to the Conservatory. Cool.    What studio do you run?

I was in Tempe in 03'. I'm actually from Illinois. I spent some time in Nashville, TN. The name of the studio is Freqiuncy Recording, my name is quincy, It's sort of a pun, my spelling is OK. I do mostly demos, I love it.

I appreciate the responses. I love the audio engineering aspects of recording. It seems the choices are endless these days...

Offline aegert

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2008, 10:21:02 AM »
I edit every show...

In the end 90% of the sound guys don't get it right.. And if they do depending on the room that could be for one spot alone....

I find every recording can use eq management to make it better listen able on cd or the like... They have an RIAA line for a reason.. Every one of your favorite live records have been mastered... Thats what we are talking about here.. If you are in a medium sized room with subs and you have flying cabinets and the stage sound is loud you are bound to wind up with spikes and valley in the frequency spectrum.. Managing these helps make the show more listen able.

After you reduce, and I mean only reduce not boost, these pesky frequencies while taking into account your avg rms is in the -22db range to start you are going to have to reclaim gain. To do that you will need to reduce transients a little, limit.... If you don't you are going to have to turn your listening system up loud to listen and at that point you add distortion because your pre now is overworking...

When I record I shoot to have transient peaks to not exceed -3db in the end they usually do.. My main peaks live in the -12 to -6db range... Listening to music with rms resultant from these levels yield a thin listening experience. I am not talking about squashing a recording or even touching the  real dynamic range. It just does what every good light mastering job does. It brings the levels up so the peaks reside where they should for a cd release... Again this is not the loudness war argument... I am tot taking any musical peaks and reducing them to to make low peaks loud....  We are talking about moving avg rms from -22db to -19 or as far as -17db and peak rms from -11db to -10db  small moves with much headroom to spare.. These are example numbers and they vary.. Sometimes you need less sometimes a little more....

In the end you will like the sound better for it... It doesn't mean you didn't get a good pull.. There are virtually no recordings released today that are dry and unedited.. In fact all recordings are edited multiple times from track recording to mixing then mastering.. There could be 5 compressors touching portions of the music before you buy a cd and this could be for country music which ain't loud....

Now I agree there is a tendency to make music to loud in music today. You know a loud waves when you see them they are brick walled and square no definition ..... That is not what we are talking about here... rms of -5db  LOL

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Offline Sloan Simpson

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2008, 10:45:41 AM »
They have an RIAA line for a reason..
Could you explain that?  I'm aware of the RIAA curve for vinyl playback, but I assume you're talking about something different.

I'm also of the make-it-better school.  I know lots of folks tape bigger shows, but most of my stuff is in small clubs and pretty much everything can use some help.

Offline Dede2002

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2008, 11:05:50 AM »
Great topic ;)
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Offline Sloan Simpson

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2008, 11:26:41 AM »
by some of these responses, I know that I'll never let anyone else "master" my recordings.
Which parts do you disagree with?

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2008, 11:53:22 AM »
by some of these responses, I know that I'll never let anyone else "master" my recordings.
Which parts do you disagree with?

Altering them, in any way.

They are archival recordings, to document the scene as its played out. Altering them leaves a different impression on the listener than the way the gig actually played out.
I also don't get multi-mic ambient recordings (by multi-mic, I mean, more than a stereo pair). And, sbd/ambient matrix mixes.

I'm a purist,... two mics to be listened to by two ears.

I'd feel the same way if I were able to capture it the way it played out ;)  I suspect chamber stuff is easier captured well in the first place, as opposed to punk/metal/etc.

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2008, 12:27:17 PM »
but if you're in a part of the venue that has a bit of a bass trap

As a n00b I'm curious what is considered a bass trap.

A bass trap as its often refurred to is a place in a room where there is alot of low end build up. This can happen for a lot of reasons 1- Its the point in the room where the left and right speakers sum at low frequenceys... Usually dead center...2- Or there is something about the room that traps the low end and allows it to build up. Usually hard surfaces and hard walls in a small area. If you want to reduce bass you can always go off to one side or the other. Often its not a big deal to do so because the sound guy is usually off to one side as well. I never like to mix a show dead center.. Because of the bass build up. I like to be somewhere off to one side. That way I am not getting "fooled" into thinking there is more bass then there actually is. There are always acceptions to the rule but generally speaking dead center will always have the most amount of bass..

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2008, 12:46:29 PM »
I agree with the gist of aegert's comments, but also understand where Moke is coming from.  As tapers, I think we have to ask ourselves what our vision or 'listening goal' is in capturing the audio of a show and the techniques we use to do that.

I record SBD+AUD 4track or multi-mic mixes a lot more often these days than stereo AUD.  

With my 2 track stereo AUD recordings, the only post work I'll do is to peak normalize (add gain to -0.2dBFS) and maybe a high-pass filter if called for.  My 'goal' with 2 track AUD is to capture the room as it was that night.  I'll only adjust the EQ further using a ParaEQ in the rare circumstances that it sounded so awful in the room, or my recording location, that the EQ adjustment is called for to make it listenable on mediocre playback systems.  With multiple AUD pairs in the same location (on the same stand, etc.) being mixed to stereo, I'll rarely add more than a limiter or some light (2:1) compression to reduce just the highest transients that tend to be increased by the summing effect of mixing the sources.

For anything other than ambient stereo AUD, however, I will apply some 'light' post-production as I feel it's called for since I consider my 'goal' a little differently.  With multi-source recordings that are not full multitracks (i.e., stage + PA AUD, SBD + stage + PA, SBD + AUD, etc.), I see the goal as more like using the tools at hand to make a shorthand type of multitrack recording where I'm trying to represent a 'sweet spot/front row' type sound that is more than the component stereo sources may convey.  I want the crispness of the direct sound if I have the SBD feed, yet I still want it to feel like you're in a room with other people and to represent what it was like to be at the show in a way that the SBD tracks alone would not be able to do.  With these recordings, I typically add 'light' (2:1 - 2.5:1) compression with the threshold set a little under the average peak level.  I follow that with a ParaEQ, typically adding a high-pass filter and possibly using a notch or shelfing filter to reduce a bit of some frequency/frequency range as my ears - and maybe RTA viewing - indicate is needed.  Depending on the peaks of the strongest transients, I may add a limiter before I peak normalize to -0.2dBFS.  I like the average rms levels to be in the -20dB to -16dB range, thus leaving space to somewhat accurately respresent the dynamic range of the show as it may have been heard in the audience.

*edits for spelling
« Last Edit: March 17, 2008, 01:16:37 PM by easyjim »

Offline Sloan Simpson

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2008, 01:04:55 PM »
I think what easyjim mentioned about goals gets to the heart of it.  I personally don't care as much about representing what happened that night as I do making the CD (or whatever) as enjoyable a listen as possible.

Offline heath

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2008, 01:07:53 PM »
I recorded PA for 18 years (17??), in the nastiest, dankest of clubs, and stadiums, before I first pushed record in a classical setting.
Classical, and especially chamber has been the most challenging music I've ever recorded. Not only do you have room anomalies, ensemble stage layout, changing sets and player arrangements with each and every song; you also have dynamic swings of 60dB swings of musical signal, or more, in the single drop of the baton.
I'd be surprised if PA systems see a 5db swing between any muscially played moment.

Back to altering the recording,....
Its totally out of the question, except, with the rare need to take the bass off a bit below 75hz, to remove some boom, they never get touched (remember, my background was deeply into live reggae and african contemporary before my chamber era).
I'd say that less than 5% of my recordings get any sort of HPF, and thats all they'd ever get. Anymore, if I record grossly distorted bass (the kind that makes you want to vomit), the HPF switch gets turned on, on the V3, in an instant, without hesitation, to eliminate the need for post processing. I'm very comfortable with V3 HPF2 in the ultimately rare circumstance that I'd need it.

moke said dankest.  hehe

anyhow...I rarely, if ever, do/did any sort of post-processing to my recordings.  They are what they are.  Kind of weird considering the studio equipment/tools I have at my disposal, but I guess I am a taping "purist" like Moke in that regard.  The studio is the studio, and the 2track concert recordings are another ballgame.  Not that I even tape anything these days, but I thought I'd chime in with 2 cents.
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Offline Dede2002

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2008, 01:23:38 PM »
I think what easyjim mentioned about goals gets to the heart of it.  I personally don't care as much about representing what happened that night as I do making the CD (or whatever) as enjoyable a listen as possible.

Same thing here.
I'm not a huge fan of the " the-room-as-it-was-that-night" recording approach. For one thing," as-it-was" for whom? My mics or my ears? I'll always give preference to my ears. My mics do not seat in my living room with a cold beer to listen to a recent recording. I do.
Minor adjustments with features like  Normalize ou a light EQ wouldn't alter anything. You're not adding anything that wasn't already there. It's just a matter of tonal balance.
But I'm just a newbie. I respect different opinions.  ;)
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2008, 01:56:40 PM »
My attitude towards this is simple. If you really know what your doing and you have good reference monitors and you can make your recording sound better WHY NOT? Do what you can to make it more enjoyable for you and anyone that might want to listen to it. If recording engineers took the attitude of not fixing things.. Well every record out there would sound like a huge pile of shit. Why because very few guitar players for example ever crouch down to the same level as the speakers in the amps they use to hear that asstone... They stand up and hell it sounds good blowing past my knees it must sound good down there lol... But as far as the recordings I make to show people what my mics sound like.. I leave them as is unedited.. Why because some of you might not have the gear/skill I do to make a huge difference that I can make to just about any recording. And its not a true representation of my product. So if your not selling your mics... I think you should do what ever you have too to make your recordings sound better in the process you will learn the difference between 5k and 8k * frequencies * and hell that's not a bad thing.. I apologize to the people here that already know the difference :) hehe...

I learned how to do live sound not by leaving things as they are but my changing them. In the begginging most of the things I changed made it sound like ass.. After a while I leaned how to spin the knobs correctly. You always have undo in a recording that your editing.. I wish I had undo as a live engineer :)


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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2008, 01:57:54 PM »
I do post-processing on everything I record; standard 2 track ambient, multi mic ambient, sbd, matrices and multitracks.
then again, my recordings are not for my personal enjoyment or to "archive" in general. my recordings are almost always for the band to possibly release in the future and they only want the best possible sound.

there is a give/take with clubs/theatres when using amplified PAs. the sound is mixed for the room, not for a recording. unless you are doing a full multitrack, or submix out certain channels and mix/eq/compress on the fly you will HAVE to do at least some post-production in order to get the recording to sound its best.
even being in the "sweet spot" in any given room will still have some deficiencies.


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Offline Dede2002

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2008, 02:01:43 PM »
My attitude towards this is simple. If you really know what your doing and you have good reference monitors and you can make your recording sound better WHY NOT? Do what you can to make it more enjoyable for you and anyone that might want to listen to it. If recording engineers took the attitude of not fixing things.. Well every record out there would sound like a huge pile of shit. Why because very few guitar players for example ever crouch down to the same level as the speakers in the amps they use to hear that asstone... They stand up and hell it sounds good blowing past my knees it must sound good down there lol... But as far as the recordings I make to show people what my mics sound like.. I leave them as is unedited.. Why because some of you might not have the gear/skill I do to make a huge difference that I can make to just about any recording. And its not a true representation of my product. So if your not selling your mics... I think you should do what ever you have too to make your recordings sound better in the process you will learn the difference between 5k and 8k * frequencies * and hell that's not a bad thing.. I apologize to the people here that already know the difference :) hehe...

I learned how to do live sound not by leaving things as they are but my changing them. In the begginging most of the things I changed made it sound like ass.. After a while I leaned how to spin the knobs correctly. You always have undo in a recording that your editing.. I wish I had undo as a live engineer :)




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Offline Kevin Straker

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2008, 03:03:08 PM »
I edit every show...

IEvery one of your favorite live records have been mastered... Thats what we are talking about here..



Most of those are live multitrack, not live 2 track. Obviously, remastering a multitrack recording is more productive.
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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2008, 03:43:55 PM »


Most of those are live multitrack, not live 2 track. Obviously, remastering a multitrack recording is more productive.

Exactly.

I'm not micing separate musical and vocal instruments.  I'm micing "a show" - the PA, the room the crowd, all with an approximation of stereo image based on mic techniques.  That's what we are really talking about here.  I am basically already doing some of what a lot of people have mentioned - I rolloff bass in the analog chain instead of in post.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2008, 03:45:26 PM by RobertNC »
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Offline aegert

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2008, 03:54:07 PM »
I edit every show...

IEvery one of your favorite live records have been mastered... Thats what we are talking about here..



Most of those are live multitrack, not live 2 track. Obviously, remastering a multitrack recording is more productive.

It isn't remastering as it was never mastered.. All the records of yore and cd releases of today are mastered..what is sent to the mastering engineer is a 2 track mix down.. This is then mastered not remastered... Ala my 2 channel recordings that are then mastered..

In the end you listen to these... It is your prerogative there are no rights or wrongs as it goes for taste or opinion... I would say that if most people listened to a raw pull vs an well edited mastering you would fall on the editing side of the argument... And that is opinion and you know what opinions are like.. :-)

I have heard very few recordings that could not benefited at least by a level increase... Most all BY an eq a limit/compress and gain increase... Another opinion... But if you look at any and I mean any live rock album you will see a mastering engineer and there is always one there...

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #26 on: March 17, 2008, 04:13:47 PM »
which is exactly why I've bought exactly one commercial release in a decade??
maybe one and a half decades??
I can't stand what happens to recordings when they get over worked.


The last 15 years is really the timeframe of the onset of the 'loudness wars.'  As such, there has been an increasing tendency among both studio engineers (during initial mixing) as well as mastering engineers to severely compress and limit recordings to achieve average rms peak levels in the -12dB up to even -6dB range.  Thus, the dynamic range is mostly squashed out of the recording and the result is 'lifeless' in terms of dynamics, and possibly (very) harsh sounding to the listener that is used to recordings produced and mastered during the analog days.

In spite of the loudness wars, however, there still is something to a trained ear and mind carving out the rough edges of what might otherwise be a relatively 'raw' recording.  IMO, the problem is that post-production is just way overdone too often these days in commercial releases (including the 'live' ones).  "Instant Live" is probably especially prone to this, too, due to a strong incentive to rely on compressor/limiters during the capture to get solid levels while truncating any reasonable mixing and mastering to put out the disc immediately after the show.

Some folks in the recording industry have a hard time, I guess, with the concept of less is more and resisting the urge to over-tweak  :hmmm:

Offline aegert

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2008, 04:19:06 PM »
Don't assume over done... We are not talking about heavy duty work here we are talking light touch... The only thing you are doing is enabling your recordings to have the starting volume they need to play on a system with out driving it hard.. Its a pre volume control that you cannot do with your deck because there are the 1 or 2 transient hits that you do not even here that are a good 3-4db over the musical peaks...so you are killing 2 points in the recording that last 1/100th a second and that you don't hear anyway....


If you do  this either: normalizing or better yet limit and gain increase, get a louder recording with exactly the same dynamics.

Now for eq... Studies have shown that there is a very pleasing relationship between frequencies to the human ear... If you a line your frequency spectrum closer to that you will have an easier to listen to recording... we are not tossing out  full parts here but gently nudging a frequency band a couple of db down to bring them into line.... This enables the previous gain adjustments to be evenly done without over doing one or another frequency.....

This is all said with the utmost respect and understanding of opinions.. No harm meant here. I just think that when people hear the difference they like the edits more often that the raws.. This is not exclusively the case but most of the time it holds true...

A :D
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2008, 04:20:41 PM »
which is exactly why I've bought exactly one commercial release in a decade??
maybe one and a half decades??
I can't stand what happens to recordings when they get over worked.


The real problem with commercial releases as we all know is they want to be able to make them "pop" on the radio so they compress the "ratshit" out of the recording.. Imo anything overworked sounds like shit. But I think if you try really hard you can tweak things just enough to make them really great with out needing to sound overworked.

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2008, 04:37:04 PM »
which is exactly why I've bought exactly one commercial release in a decade??
maybe one and a half decades??
I can't stand what happens to recordings when they get over worked.


The real problem with commercial releases as we all know is they want to be able to make them "pop" on the radio so they compress the "ratshit" out of the recording.. Imo anything overworked sounds like shit. But I think if you try really hard you can tweak things just enough to make them really great with out needing to sound overworked.



+T Mr Church

Your vinyl records were mastered with compressors and eq too... Just not as hard as the mega pop shit of today!

These effects are your friends not your enemy... Its funny how the pendulum will swing far to the opposite side Its not that the compressors are evil.. Its some people who use compressors are evil ;-)

That was the true version of Guns don't kill people people kill people! LOL

But really light work sounds great... Major swings suck.. One square of dark chocolate or a shot of whiskey or a glass of wine a day is healthy but the whole bar or bottle ain't :-)

Love a

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2008, 04:42:15 PM »
I think what easyjim mentioned about goals gets to the heart of it.  I personally don't care as much about representing what happened that night as I do making the CD (or whatever) as enjoyable a listen as possible.

Same thing here.
I'm not a huge fan of the " the-room-as-it-was-that-night" recording approach. For one thing," as-it-was" for whom? My mics or my ears? I'll always give preference to my ears. My mics do not seat in my living room with a cold beer to listen to a recent recording. I do.
Minor adjustments with features like  Normalize ou a light EQ wouldn't alter anything. You're not adding anything that wasn't already there. It's just a matter of tonal balance.
But I'm just a newbie. I respect different opinions.  ;)

My attitude towards this is simple. If you really know what your doing and you have good reference monitors and you can make your recording sound better WHY NOT? Do what you can to make it more enjoyable for you and anyone that might want to listen to it. If recording engineers took the attitude of not fixing things.. Well every record out there would sound like a huge pile of shit. Why because very few guitar players for example ever crouch down to the same level as the speakers in the amps they use to hear that asstone... They stand up and hell it sounds good blowing past my knees it must sound good down there lol... But as far as the recordings I make to show people what my mics sound like.. I leave them as is unedited.. Why because some of you might not have the gear/skill I do to make a huge difference that I can make to just about any recording. And its not a true representation of my product. So if your not selling your mics... I think you should do what ever you have too to make your recordings sound better in the process you will learn the difference between 5k and 8k * frequencies * and hell that's not a bad thing.. I apologize to the people here that already know the difference :) hehe...

I learned how to do live sound not by leaving things as they are but my changing them. In the begginging most of the things I changed made it sound like ass.. After a while I leaned how to spin the knobs correctly. You always have undo in a recording that your editing.. I wish I had undo as a live engineer :)


Care for another take?  I'm a bit in both worlds, and I fully agree it's about the goals and the potential audience.

I find the challenges of recording unamplified music quite different from recording a FOH amplified concert.  My recordings of unamplified classical, jazz, bluegrass or whatever usually require little to no eq adjustment but have huge dynamic ranges that are the challenge.  When recording the challenge is noise at the quiet end while allowing enough headroom to capture the big dynamics.  On the playback side, my playback system can't handle those big dynamics easily.  I have to jump for the volume knob like Moke says.  These recordings would not work well at all on my friend's even more modest home stereos, ipods and car stereos.  That's just how it is, I can live with a larger dynamic range than they can.  There's the goal of the potential audience part.  But I haven't committed my recordings to that mastering adjustment yet.  More on that below.

I often eq my recordings of FOH amplified events (including amplified acoustic music) during playback and these often need little or no dynamic adjustment.  But this is a problem of an altogether different nature.  With the dynamic unamplified recordings, I think a super duper playback system could handle the levels and I wouldn't have to make adjustments, where the FOH amplified stuff needs eq to fix basic frequency problems that are not short comings in the playback chain.  Those eq adjustments can make a huge difference, but it takes a long time and alot of fine tweaking to get it just right - when it is right, there is no denying it's right. It's like night and day to whoever walks in the room.  Like Chris says I've learned alot in seriously listening and going through that process.  Some of the things I've learned are: It takes alot of time, concentration and dedication to do that properly.  Some recordings (and some recording deficiencies) seem to 'take' eq adjustments very well, others do not.  It's sometimes difficult to connect the 'mental idea' of what frequency band needs adjustment and what my ears are hearing.  It's very easy to make something sound different, it's quite difficult to make it sound better.  It's much too easy to make it sound horrible.

Done correctly, eq can make the recording sound more real, and much truer to being there.  I highly appreciate the 'purist' ideal and find a well done two mic Aud recording often sounds better because of that simplicity.  But that's not a 'true representation of the event' in any sense.  It is an illusion, sometimes a breathtakingly real one, but an illusion none the less.  If you can improve on your 2 mic purist recordings by selecting different mics with different responses, than that is essentially also manipulating the recording, just in a different way.  Which is truer?  Chris' note on representing the 'sound' of his mics is different, in that case it's the quality of the mic that is being listened for, not the 'true representation of the event'. A different goal.

I don't touch my original recordings, but I on occasion create eq'd versions. I only do that hesitantly though because I lack the tools to do it properly: a well trained brain, high quality neutral playback equipment and room, and quality hardware/software.  I know that any adjustments I make are adjusting for subjective things besides the objective sound of the recording.  Like it or not I'm also adjusting for my playback system and room so the adjustments that people tell me make it sound great and 'like I'm there' when they stop by my living room, may not translate to their car, ipod or stereo.  Most of them would not likely notice some resonance at say 85hz or at 7khz (and certainly couldn't identify the frequency if they did hear something amiss), but I would and I'd be upset to hear it that way.  In that case my 'mastering' wouldn't be much of an improvement, just a bastardization.

I haven't created dynamically modified versions yet.  The main reason is that I can turn the volume knob easier than setting the eq! The flip side is that my understanding of adjusting the dynamics is much less evolved than adjusting the eq.  I could set a volume envelope for loud applause and print that to the file like a recording of my volume knob adjustments, but I haven't learned enough to get good compressor or limiter settings that don't degrade the sound to my ears.  That ear knowledge is more difficult than learning effective eq for me.

Mastering engineers are highly specialized, have custom built rooms and loads of specialized, expensive gear, and good ones are paid handsomely for their work.  If anyone could do it by tweaking a few knobs, those guys would be out of business.  I recognize the potential for mastering, and the potential for me to screw it up at the same time.  I don't take that lightly, which is why I've hesitated for so long to get into it.  I also realize that even if I had the best skills and tools I'd still have to decide on which compromises to make. Once it's out there it's forever.

In the end it's all about compromising for the requirements, desires and expectations of the potential audience.  I agree with the poor assessments of many commercial releases and 'instant live' recordings though I've only heard a couple of them.  Those are compromised for the marketplace, squashed for car-ready dynamics, etc. 

But I'm a weirdo that thinks even Aud's with cardioid mics sound flat, squashed and closed in most of the time.  Blumlein, subcards or omnis sound more 'real' to me.  I've got my hands full working on getting the most out of the recording side so far, with little time to get to the post production dark side.

Appologies for all the words.






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Offline lordbelial

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2008, 05:21:29 PM »
I found out that my recordings, when applied some mastering, sounded better for me.

I found this guide very very helpful: http://har-bal.com/mastering_process.php
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2008, 06:35:49 PM »
I think what easyjim mentioned about goals gets to the heart of it.  I personally don't care as much about representing what happened that night as I do making the CD (or whatever) as enjoyable a listen as possible.

Same thing here.
I'm not a huge fan of the " the-room-as-it-was-that-night" recording approach. For one thing," as-it-was" for whom? My mics or my ears? I'll always give preference to my ears. My mics do not seat in my living room with a cold beer to listen to a recent recording. I do.
Minor adjustments with features like  Normalize ou a light EQ wouldn't alter anything. You're not adding anything that wasn't already there. It's just a matter of tonal balance.
But I'm just a newbie. I respect different opinions.  ;)

My attitude towards this is simple. If you really know what your doing and you have good reference monitors and you can make your recording sound better WHY NOT? Do what you can to make it more enjoyable for you and anyone that might want to listen to it. If recording engineers took the attitude of not fixing things.. Well every record out there would sound like a huge pile of shit. Why because very few guitar players for example ever crouch down to the same level as the speakers in the amps they use to hear that asstone... They stand up and hell it sounds good blowing past my knees it must sound good down there lol... But as far as the recordings I make to show people what my mics sound like.. I leave them as is unedited.. Why because some of you might not have the gear/skill I do to make a huge difference that I can make to just about any recording. And its not a true representation of my product. So if your not selling your mics... I think you should do what ever you have too to make your recordings sound better in the process you will learn the difference between 5k and 8k * frequencies * and hell that's not a bad thing.. I apologize to the people here that already know the difference :) hehe...

I learned how to do live sound not by leaving things as they are but my changing them. In the begginging most of the things I changed made it sound like ass.. After a while I leaned how to spin the knobs correctly. You always have undo in a recording that your editing.. I wish I had undo as a live engineer :)


Care for another take?  I'm a bit in both worlds, and I fully agree it's about the goals and the potential audience.

I find the challenges of recording unamplified music quite different from recording a FOH amplified concert.  My recordings of unamplified classical, jazz, bluegrass or whatever usually require little to no eq adjustment but have huge dynamic ranges that are the challenge.  When recording the challenge is noise at the quiet end while allowing enough headroom to capture the big dynamics.  On the playback side, my playback system can't handle those big dynamics easily.  I have to jump for the volume knob like Moke says.  These recordings would not work well at all on my friend's even more modest home stereos, ipods and car stereos.  That's just how it is, I can live with a larger dynamic range than they can.  There's the goal of the potential audience part.  But I haven't committed my recordings to that mastering adjustment yet.  More on that below.

I often eq my recordings of FOH amplified events (including amplified acoustic music) during playback and these often need little or no dynamic adjustment.  But this is a problem of an altogether different nature.  With the dynamic unamplified recordings, I think a super duper playback system could handle the levels and I wouldn't have to make adjustments, where the FOH amplified stuff needs eq to fix basic frequency problems that are not short comings in the playback chain.  Those eq adjustments can make a huge difference, but it takes a long time and alot of fine tweaking to get it just right - when it is right, there is no denying it's right. It's like night and day to whoever walks in the room.  Like Chris says I've learned alot in seriously listening and going through that process.  Some of the things I've learned are: It takes alot of time, concentration and dedication to do that properly.  Some recordings (and some recording deficiencies) seem to 'take' eq adjustments very well, others do not.  It's sometimes difficult to connect the 'mental idea' of what frequency band needs adjustment and what my ears are hearing.  It's very easy to make something sound different, it's quite difficult to make it sound better.  It's much too easy to make it sound horrible.

Done correctly, eq can make the recording sound more real, and much truer to being there.  I highly appreciate the 'purist' ideal and find a well done two mic Aud recording often sounds better because of that simplicity.  But that's not a 'true representation of the event' in any sense.  It is an illusion, sometimes a breathtakingly real one, but an illusion none the less.  If you can improve on your 2 mic purist recordings by selecting different mics with different responses, than that is essentially also manipulating the recording, just in a different way.  Which is truer?  Chris' note on representing the 'sound' of his mics is different, in that case it's the quality of the mic that is being listened for, not the 'true representation of the event'. A different goal.

I don't touch my original recordings, but I on occasion create eq'd versions. I only do that hesitantly though because I lack the tools to do it properly: a well trained brain, high quality neutral playback equipment and room, and quality hardware/software.  I know that any adjustments I make are adjusting for subjective things besides the objective sound of the recording.  Like it or not I'm also adjusting for my playback system and room so the adjustments that people tell me make it sound great and 'like I'm there' when they stop by my living room, may not translate to their car, ipod or stereo.  Most of them would not likely notice some resonance at say 85hz or at 7khz (and certainly couldn't identify the frequency if they did hear something amiss), but I would and I'd be upset to hear it that way.  In that case my 'mastering' wouldn't be much of an improvement, just a bastardization.

I haven't created dynamically modified versions yet.  The main reason is that I can turn the volume knob easier than setting the eq! The flip side is that my understanding of adjusting the dynamics is much less evolved than adjusting the eq.  I could set a volume envelope for loud applause and print that to the file like a recording of my volume knob adjustments, but I haven't learned enough to get good compressor or limiter settings that don't degrade the sound to my ears.  That ear knowledge is more difficult than learning effective eq for me.

Mastering engineers are highly specialized, have custom built rooms and loads of specialized, expensive gear, and good ones are paid handsomely for their work.  If anyone could do it by tweaking a few knobs, those guys would be out of business.  I recognize the potential for mastering, and the potential for me to screw it up at the same time.  I don't take that lightly, which is why I've hesitated for so long to get into it.  I also realize that even if I had the best skills and tools I'd still have to decide on which compromises to make. Once it's out there it's forever.

In the end it's all about compromising for the requirements, desires and expectations of the potential audience.  I agree with the poor assessments of many commercial releases and 'instant live' recordings though I've only heard a couple of them.  Those are compromised for the marketplace, squashed for car-ready dynamics, etc. 

But I'm a weirdo that thinks even Aud's with cardioid mics sound flat, squashed and closed in most of the time.  Blumlein, subcards or omnis sound more 'real' to me.  I've got my hands full working on getting the most out of the recording side so far, with little time to get to the post production dark side.

Appologies for all the words.








In a perfect world I would agree with you 1000%...

But unfortunately we dont live in a perfect world. There is no such thing as a pair of mics that can with out a question of a doubt recreate the event exactly the way we hear it. Why because not all of our hearing is thru the air.. For one reason and we dont have microphones with brains in them to apply psychoacoustic adaptive listing to the events that we want to record. Until we do recordings may need to be enhanced, It has nothing to do with the playback systems we use and everything to do with the devices we use to recreate the sound we hear. Its a real shame we have spent all this effort on A-D converters and new recording devices but the simple fact is microphone technology for the most part * the way we convert acoustic energy into voltage * has not changed that much in the last 20 years or so...

Chris
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2008, 07:07:02 PM »
In a perfect world I would agree with you 1000%...

But unfortunately we dont live in a perfect world. There is no such thing as a pair of mics that can with out a question of a doubt recreate the event exactly the way we hear it. Why because not all of our hearing is thru the air.. For one reason and we dont have microphones with brains in them to apply psychoacoustic adaptive listing to the events that we want to record. Until we do recordings may need to be enhanced, It has nothing to do with the playback systems we use and everything to do with the devices we use to recreate the sound we hear. Its a real shame we have spent all this effort on A-D converters and new recording devices but the simple fact is microphone technology for the most part * the way we convert acoustic energy into voltage * has not changed that much in the last 20 years or so...

Chris

I think we agree Chris, especially on the no perfect mics & mics lacking a brain.  :)  Not sure what you mean by the in a perfect world part.. I'm expressly talking about the limits of the gear most people are listening through (dynamics) and fixing sonic problems (eq).  Imperfect world stuff.

As for playback limitations, my recording chain can handle way more dynamic range than my stereo.  I consider adjusting the dynamics a convenience thing, not to have to adjust the volume when the applause hits (I'm not squashing classical for car listening).  That huge dynamic range on the recording is closer to the real experience.  It's just hard to handle.  That's adjusting a more perfect recording for imperfect playback systems or situations.

I need to eq some FOH amped things to correct for problems - as you know when done right, the results can be great, but it's not simple to do.  That is a more subjective adjustment geared towards 'making it sound right', or adjusting a less than perfect recording to make it sound 'closer to the live experience' (an illusion of course, maybe I'm making it what I wish the experience was  ;)).  The FOH stuff often needs more of that than the acoustic stuff to my ears.  But FOH stuff more often sounds like crap than the acoustic stuff too.
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline boyacrobat

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2008, 08:56:03 PM »
for me post work gets done in pre.
work that one out.

g

Offline BlingFree

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #35 on: March 18, 2008, 09:00:16 AM »
Tho I'm no professional I've released my fair share of recordings. Its rare that I do anything more than small eq bumps or bass rolloff with a modest, global level increase.

But whether I run light compression, heavy EQ or do no edits at all I always include my email and offer copies of the master... for those purists out there or anyone at all.
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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #36 on: March 18, 2008, 09:13:09 AM »
I am not a big fan of post tweaking, unless the raw recording suffers from some extreme flaw. For example, I have taken soundboard recordings where the vocals lacked compression and peaked louder than the instrument mix. A little compression applied will balance out this problem nicely.

Also, for acoustic recordings where the peak level of audience applause at the end of songs exceeds the peak level of the music, a carefully chosen threshold for a limiter can harness that issue.

Otherwise, I think I am more in the "raw" camp than the "mastering" camp. I have heard too many recordings where the amount of tweaking was audible in a negative way. "Less is more", as the saying goes.

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #37 on: March 18, 2008, 09:42:36 AM »
I have heard too many recordings where the amount of tweaking was audible in a negative way. "Less is more", as the saying goes.

truth.
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Offline Dede2002

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #38 on: March 18, 2008, 10:11:58 AM »
I have heard too many recordings where the amount of tweaking was audible in a negative way. "Less is more", as the saying goes.

truth.

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Offline aegert

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #39 on: March 18, 2008, 11:06:33 AM »
Less is always more but none does not mean less

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Offline Kevin Straker

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #40 on: March 18, 2008, 11:25:07 AM »
I edit every show...

IEvery one of your favorite live records have been mastered... Thats what we are talking about here..



Most of those are live multitrack, not live 2 track. Obviously, remastering a multitrack recording is more productive.

It isn't remastering as it was never mastered.. All the records of yore and cd releases of today are mastered..what is sent to the mastering engineer is a 2 track mix down.. This is then mastered not remastered... Ala my 2 channel recordings that are then mastered..



Mastered, remastered, mixed, remixed, I'm confused. Are you saying that live albums are mixed in real time and then reduced to two tracks for mastering? I know plenty of sound men who do a live multitrack, with independent tracks, and then mix it down in a better environment. I assumed that this was the norm. 
Personally I have good luck setting my levels at the show and don't generally need post work. I prefer to eq on playback although I rarely even do that.  Thanks for the info and +T
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Offline Sloan Simpson

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #41 on: March 18, 2008, 11:39:09 AM »
So, Aegert,...
please tell me that the MOTB project doesn't just go ahead and eq/change all of the recordings that you all are processing?!?!

Quote
4.) Mastering/ Editing:  A Master MOTB editor is assigned to the newly transferred show. He will read the notes from the QC process and start attacking the issues on a professional Digital Audio Workstation. This mastering process will yield a tighter error free set of lossless compressed files known as FLAC. They will be in both 16 and 24 bit flavors. The files will be tracked into individual songs. AN MOTB Control Number will be generated and will become the MOTB Release Number upon final release.

Offline datbrad

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #42 on: March 18, 2008, 11:49:36 AM »
I remember way back in the cassette days of the '80s, I knew this big trader who always made copies through a really nice EQ. He felt every recording needed some adjustment in tone, and also tried to take more tape hiss out that Dolby did not already remove. I found his recordings sounded great on his home system, but not always on others, and certainly not mine. I had to spar with him in the beginning to let me copy his masters directly, deck to deck, which required re-routing his cables.

My position was, if they need EQ, I have tone controls on my playback gear to dial it in to my tastes.

I think a similar thing goes for post editing. Every single recording does not need a bunch of post work. Other than tracking, a good recording should be left alone and post work should be used only to salvage an otherwise unsatisfactory recording.
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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #43 on: March 18, 2008, 12:01:42 PM »
I remember way back in the cassette days of the '80s, I knew this big trader who always made copies through a really nice EQ. He felt every recording needed some adjustment in tone, and also tried to take more tape hiss out that Dolby did not already remove. I found his recordings sounded great on his home system, but not always on others, and certainly not mine. I had to spar with him in the beginning to let me copy his masters directly, deck to deck, which required re-routing his cables.

My position was, if they need EQ, I have tone controls on my playback gear to dial it in to my tastes.

I think a similar thing goes for post editing. Every single recording does not need a bunch of post work. Other than tracking, a good recording should be left alone and post work should be used only to salvage an otherwise unsatisfactory recording.

I stayed with a guy in Boulder for awhile in 85 that used to do that on all the tapes he copied
I have to agree that they might have sounded good on his home stereo but not on others

I rarely if ever EQ any of my recordings in post... only on playback
also what sounds good one day may not another even on the same system
your mood at the time can play a big factor in what you perceive

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #44 on: March 18, 2008, 12:19:50 PM »
I remember way back in the cassette days of the '80s, I knew this big trader who always made copies through a really nice EQ. He felt every recording needed some adjustment in tone, and also tried to take more tape hiss out that Dolby did not already remove. I found his recordings sounded great on his home system, but not always on others, and certainly not mine. I had to spar with him in the beginning to let me copy his masters directly, deck to deck, which required re-routing his cables.

My position was, if they need EQ, I have tone controls on my playback gear to dial it in to my tastes.

I think a similar thing goes for post editing. Every single recording does not need a bunch of post work. Other than tracking, a good recording should be left alone and post work should be used only to salvage an otherwise unsatisfactory recording.

I stayed with a guy in Boulder for awhile in 85 that used to do that on all the tapes he copied
I have to agree that they might have sounded good on his home stereo but not on others

I rarely if ever EQ any of my recordings in post... only on playback
also what sounds good one day may not another even on the same system
your mood at the time can play a big factor in what you perceive

I agree here for the most part guys.  I'll rarely do more EQ adjustment than a high-pass filter, even on my matrix mixes, for the reasons above - poor translation to other playback systems.  Professional mastering engineers specialize in fine-tuning the EQ, among other things, but I know I'm still learning and developing my ears so I try to leave as much as I feel is reasonable to adjustment during playback.

For stereo AUD recordings, I see myself capturing the room sound (or at least the 'room sound' as captured by my rig), so I'll only use a HPF to deal with excessive low end.  If I ever attack the EQ more than a basic HPF, mostly on matrix recordings where something is resonant due to summing or a poor room mix, I always 'test' the 'draft' mixes on a few other mediocre systems to see how it translates before I decide if I'm done with it and it is 'final'.  Usually, once I'm happy on my mixing/reference playback system, I test the 'draft' mix on my crappy stock car stereo and a boombox I use at work.  If it sounds good to me on all three, I'm generally happy with it and ready to move on to the next project.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2008, 12:22:16 PM by easyjim »

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #45 on: March 18, 2008, 12:33:05 PM »
I remember way back in the cassette days of the '80s, I knew this big trader who always made copies through a really nice EQ. He felt every recording needed some adjustment in tone, and also tried to take more tape hiss out that Dolby did not already remove. I found his recordings sounded great on his home system, but not always on others, and certainly not mine. I had to spar with him in the beginning to let me copy his masters directly, deck to deck, which required re-routing his cables.

My position was, if they need EQ, I have tone controls on my playback gear to dial it in to my tastes.

I think a similar thing goes for post editing. Every single recording does not need a bunch of post work. Other than tracking, a good recording should be left alone and post work should be used only to salvage an otherwise unsatisfactory recording.

I stayed with a guy in Boulder for awhile in 85 that used to do that on all the tapes he copied
I have to agree that they might have sounded good on his home stereo but not on others

I rarely if ever EQ any of my recordings in post... only on playback
also what sounds good one day may not another even on the same system
your mood at the time can play a big factor in what you perceive

Thein lies the very real and too often overlooked danger.  Where the objective fixing ends and the subjective sweetening starts is invisible to the tweakist.  That's why I know better than to trust my skills or tools enough to comit the eq to digits even though I understand that in the right hands, there could be an objective benefit for most end listeners.

Thanks for the intersting discussion all.
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Offline aegert

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #46 on: March 19, 2008, 07:53:36 AM »
So, Aegert,...
please tell me that the MOTB project doesn't just go ahead and eq/change all of the recordings that you all are processing?!?!

Do you like the releases?

Most people do... And yes all are edited... Some have little or no eq or processing some have a lot... It is dependent on what the show/ tape  needs..

We archive all the raw transfers they are safe and sound... But we make each recording as best as it can be... We reduce claps where needed, patch, eq, compress, bring levels up to listening levels for the broad community, correct speed, manage dolby issues... the list goes on...

I respect everyones opinions on what they want to listen to.. Mine is clearly stated in this thread and most everyone who transfers and seeds shows these days is editing in one form or another. You don't have the benefits of hearing the raw vs. the edit.. but if you did in motb's case I am confident you would prefer to listen to the edited source.

There are a lot of others I can't speak for... We are down to 3 editors now because of that..,  It is not hard to edit but it can be tedious long... THere are many people releasing 3-4 shows a week... all edited.. we do one to 2 a month when we are cranking... Why? I get complaints form tapers all the time... Its because we have 5 people pouring oiver every version of a 24bit edit listening in highend headphones, car stereo's and on nice DAWS with great speakers.. We all who qc that work pull no punches. We some times re do an edit 4-5 times to get it right... Or as right as we can.. THese are imperfect sources...

So when you ask that question think to yourself did you like the release? If so maybe editing is not that bad... But remember we use the lightest hand here.. very minor moves either way all with the sole purpose of moving the complete dynamic range and I mean complete up to listening levels....

As I said before we archive RAW transfers in 6 locations, bake tapes when needed and qc all work...

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Offline datbrad

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #47 on: March 19, 2008, 12:23:55 PM »
After reading the MOTB website, I now see a huge difference in the positions taken on this thread regarding post work between recording aging cassettes and reels and cleaning them up for release as digital files, and taking digital sources and tweaking every one. I fully support the idea of polishing up old analog sources when needed, and I think based on the statements on the MOTB site, they are doing that with the best gear available using people with sincere desires to get the best out of these old analog sources.

This is off topic, but I do take exception with the stated premise on the MOTB site that all GD OTS recordings were inferior to FOB recordings, as that is simply not true, particularly once FOB had to be a stealth job '85 on, with stands kept at or below head height to get away with it. Often, I was able to enjoy the more ambient recording from the OTS that may have not had quite the thrust of the "mouth of the beast" as they call the "sweet spot", but was also without any distinct chatter or other racket commonly recorded FOB with low mics. It is hard to enjoy the difference in the sound of the music when you are hearing the details of the converstations occuring in the seats directly around the rig with mics down at 5'10" in the row.

Back on topic, to me digital recordings made from the audience using a simple pair of ambient mics, specifically the ones being made today, should not be run through a mill of tweaks in an audio editing program habitually. They should certainly be repaired when very much needed to make them listenable, but otherwise left alone, IMO.

« Last Edit: March 19, 2008, 10:56:05 PM by DATBRAD »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #48 on: March 19, 2008, 12:35:32 PM »
one more..

Who is the audience? This group at TS are not ordinary listeners.  We can work both a tone control and the volume knob if needed and actually sit down & listen to music.  How many people do that anymore? music is wallpaper to most. If I make a disc for my mom she just wants it to sound good in her car.  Either it does and she's happy or it doesn't and she tosses it.   I don't have a problem with accommodating her enjoyment of the music even if I keep an unaltered version for my enjoyment (a vastly different experience to be sure).  But I note on her disc that it's altered and not original just in case it gets into someone else's hands. I don't want that version displacing or masquerading as the unmodified one.  As long as both are available, everyone is happy.

It's a good thing we can have both. This debate reminds me a bit of the 'restoration' of Buddhist temples.  European conservators come in with grant money to keep them from collapsing to the ground and to keep the plaster from falling off the walls. Some of them feel they should only secure the structure to prevent further collapse.  The majority of them feel they should also clean the layers of soot from millennia of butter-lamps like European renaissance frescoes to restore their beauty, but they all prefer to leave the missing sections missing, keeping everything 'true' to the original, historic work.  The value to them is preservation of rare, historic masterpieces.  The idea of changing or repainting these works is totally contradictory to their training and the values of their profession. The local people want nothing to do with that.  The temple isn't a historic artifact, but a living, breathing thing to them and they want it shiny, repainted and whole.  In their minds, not doing so is an affront and highly disrespectful to their culture and the particular deities that are portrayed.  They want all the cracks patched, the missing arms replaced on the statuary and the damaged or missing portions of the murals repainted and it is completely unimportant to them if the new 'restored' version differs from the original.  The goals and values of the two groups are very, very different and neither completely understands the other.  And in the case of those temples, there is no alternate copy.  All alterations are to the original recording.
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Offline aegert

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #49 on: March 19, 2008, 03:46:53 PM »
As before everyone is entitled to there opinions and I respectfully disagree with your positions. This is the way we do things. We do get complaints rarely but for the most part we get only thanks and positive response from the tapers and the downloaders...

All the tapers we do this for feel the releases sound better than the tapes... And for sure much better than any previous treatment of the the tapes... It is hard to say which any detractors would like better given the fact they haven't heard the raws...

Again I would respectfully disagree with the statement that the mission or any other statement at MOTB is not in line with the statements here. Everything described here is light clean up. We are not doing stereo expansion, we are not adding reverb we are not squashing any recordings... If our stuff is not for you no problem, no offense taken or implied I'm sure.

Vote with your bandwidth

We should just agree to disagree... :-)

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Offline esteyes

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #50 on: March 23, 2008, 06:32:58 AM »
here is my humble opinion... or at least the way i tape.

i try to make my recording sound as if you were in the sweet spot. i use 3 mics most of the time and am _generally_ able to make a tape that puts each artist in the band exactly where they stood when they played ONSTAGE.

then i work on tonal quality. i want my recording to sound like what i heard in the sweet spot. for me, indoors, the PA is more of a detriment than a help. so i choose mics accordingly.

my ears are my ears. not yours. so i make what i make. and i send it out unaltered. if you want to "fix" it, i have no problem. AS LONG AS YOU ARE _FIXING_ IT FOR YOU. other people may not hear it your way thru their playback systems. SO DON'T EQ IT AND PASS IT ON, UNLESS you make notes and pass them on as well. but, still, DON'T DO IT. let the listener adjust to suit his/her style.

we must also understand that many folks these days do not know what good sound sounds like. well maybe they are good listeners but they may not have had the opportunities of us older folks. they did not grow up going to the orchestra, or live plays, or a family member or friend that could really play an instrument so that they clearly understand what things TRULY sound like (esp unamplified 20 rows back). and with the cheapening of audio systems, where is good sound anymore... so don't try to fix it by adjusting recordings, we must try to educate them to choose better playback devices chosen AFTER they spend time learning the sound of real music.

i think everyone hears things differently. i think we must make the best recordings for ourselves first. i mean aren't they really for you first?? then share them. if you hear many of the same pointed comments about your recording, then you must look to your rig and your methods if it important to please these people. check your hearing, check your monitor system, etc... otherwise, screw'em and enjoy your fruits of your labors.

neil

as far as MOTB goes, they document what they do. try it. if you don't like it don't go there again. but remember one of the key things from the dead was tolerance. all this crap that deifies the dead's music is BS. it was all about the interplay between the band and the audience and the being there. everything else is just watching the movie. a good movie it may be, but...
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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #51 on: March 23, 2008, 12:20:18 PM »

we must also understand that many folks these days do not know what good sound sounds like. well maybe they are good listeners but they may not have had the opportunities of us older folks. they did not grow up going to the orchestra, or live plays, or a family member or friend that could really play an instrument so that they clearly understand what things TRULY sound like (esp unamplified 20 rows back). and with the cheapening of audio systems, where is good sound anymore... so don't try to fix it by adjusting recordings, we must try to educate them to choose better playback devices chosen AFTER they spend time learning the sound of real music.


I agree with this. I think part of the problem is that there is tendency for modern PA mixes to over emphasize the bass and drums. Often vocals are way down in the mix. I call it "the rock mix" or, at its worst, "the disco mix" and it drives me up the wall as a blues fan. There are plenty of soundmen who know the difference but I think they are often driven by other people to give them that rock mix they are so used to. Drums way out front and bass that rattles your fillings. Now that's what many people expect to hear. Go into your friend's houses and see how many of them have the bass cranked on their stereos. How many of them show off their new system by cranking the bass and turning the volume to 11? And don't get me started on the mix for movies on DVD.

I went to one show in an actual theatre where the soundman tried to make the singer sound like his mental image of what a blues singer should sound like. He took the singer's somewhat nasal tone and squashed it by cutting the high end while cranking the lower end of the EQ. What you ended up with was soulless muck. I had talked with the soundman quite a bit before the show and he was a nice guy but I really wanted to thump him on the head during the set and say "WTF do you think you're doing?" How many people in the audience thought the guy couldn't sing as a result?
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Offline ghellquist

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #52 on: March 24, 2008, 08:10:05 PM »
Just my two cents on the issue, I´m not really a taper person, recording acoustical classical music.

Well, of course everyone tweaks the recordings. You select microphones, you place them in the room and in relation to each other, you run them through your favourite preamp, and through your AD converter. Each of these modifies the sound some way. Setting levels is one way to compress things, many of the boxes compresses a bit towards 0dB full scale and many limits so you will not get digital distortion when going above 0dB.

So once at home I do postprocess. The originals are of course archived.

I always add gain as I never allow levels to get close to 0dB FS when recording. I don´t like the sound of my equipment close to full out. Generally I add different amounts of gain to different parts of the show - a very quiet piece might get a little more to pull it up a little, applauds often gets a little less gain as the mics often stand among the audience.

Genarally I remove the dead time between movements and between pieces. Fade-ins and fade-outs of the room noise instead of instantly going from digital black to room noise. In between movements I tend to add a bit of room noise instead of going to total black.

Often a highpass filter, which may vary during a concert. Perhaps a bus passed and the very low frequency noise of that can be removed just there as no bass instruments played just then. I like to decrease audience noise as well, coughing and squeeky floors, paper rustling and things dropped or doors closed. Just reduced enough to not be the main attraction anymore.

So once all this is done, it might take a slight bit of other tools. These are difficult to use and easy to abuse. Here I´ve come to rely on my monitors and headphones and mostly on my ears but this is the part where I thread real carefully. Less is more and real carefully are the words.

Things that may come in are very slight EQ changes, most often 1 or 2 dB down, rarely more. Some of my mics has a rise in the high frequencys to compensate for far-away recordings that I like to temper a bit. Sometimes the room has very pronounced "modes" or tones that it likes to amplify. This might come from mic placement, example is that sounds may bounce on a hardwood floor or walls and amplify a few frequencys. At most a few dB-s down to decrease the problem but not to remove it. Less is more.

A very small amount of reverb sometimes is what the recording requires in order to be enjoyable. Just enough to make the room less dead, but never enough to be heard. Preferrably this should have been done at the recording by having an extra set of reverb mics further back in the room or by moving the main mics, but when recording with an audience to two microphones this is not always possible.

Finally, on a select few recordings, a very small amount of compression on the stereo bus. Setting on the compressor to a ratio of 1.1 or 1.2, extremely small compared to most other usages. It can sometimes melt together sounds but it may as easily destroy more than it saves.

Anyway, your choices will vary, but no recording is totally faithful -- it always has inherent choices. Electing to not post-process means that you are more limited in how to record in the first place, which may be a good thing from some aspects but not always. It will probably force you to go what I think is too hot into the preamp / AD which creates "distortion" (meaning modifying the signal).

Gunnar

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #53 on: March 24, 2008, 11:28:22 PM »
Just my two cents on the issue, I´m not really a taper person, recording acoustical classical music.

Well, of course everyone tweaks the recordings. You select microphones, you place them in the room and in relation to each other, you run them through your favourite preamp, and through your AD converter. Each of these modifies the sound some way. Setting levels is one way to compress things, many of the boxes compresses a bit towards 0dB full scale and many limits so you will not get digital distortion when going above 0dB.

So once at home I do postprocess. The originals are of course archived.

I always add gain as I never allow levels to get close to 0dB FS when recording. I don´t like the sound of my equipment close to full out. Generally I add different amounts of gain to different parts of the show - a very quiet piece might get a little more to pull it up a little, applauds often gets a little less gain as the mics often stand among the audience.

Genarally I remove the dead time between movements and between pieces. Fade-ins and fade-outs of the room noise instead of instantly going from digital black to room noise. In between movements I tend to add a bit of room noise instead of going to total black.

Often a highpass filter, which may vary during a concert. Perhaps a bus passed and the very low frequency noise of that can be removed just there as no bass instruments played just then. I like to decrease audience noise as well, coughing and squeeky floors, paper rustling and things dropped or doors closed. Just reduced enough to not be the main attraction anymore.

So once all this is done, it might take a slight bit of other tools. These are difficult to use and easy to abuse. Here I´ve come to rely on my monitors and headphones and mostly on my ears but this is the part where I thread real carefully. Less is more and real carefully are the words.

Things that may come in are very slight EQ changes, most often 1 or 2 dB down, rarely more. Some of my mics has a rise in the high frequencys to compensate for far-away recordings that I like to temper a bit. Sometimes the room has very pronounced "modes" or tones that it likes to amplify. This might come from mic placement, example is that sounds may bounce on a hardwood floor or walls and amplify a few frequencys. At most a few dB-s down to decrease the problem but not to remove it. Less is more.

A very small amount of reverb sometimes is what the recording requires in order to be enjoyable. Just enough to make the room less dead, but never enough to be heard. Preferrably this should have been done at the recording by having an extra set of reverb mics further back in the room or by moving the main mics, but when recording with an audience to two microphones this is not always possible.

Finally, on a select few recordings, a very small amount of compression on the stereo bus. Setting on the compressor to a ratio of 1.1 or 1.2, extremely small compared to most other usages. It can sometimes melt together sounds but it may as easily destroy more than it saves.

Anyway, your choices will vary, but no recording is totally faithful -- it always has inherent choices. Electing to not post-process means that you are more limited in how to record in the first place, which may be a good thing from some aspects but not always. It will probably force you to go what I think is too hot into the preamp / AD which creates "distortion" (meaning modifying the signal).

Gunnar

You know its funny you mention classical music recording, it got me thinking. One of the best recordings I have ever heard of a classical orchestra was a pair of spaced SM57 Shure mics.. LOL.. I guess it only goes to show you its better to spend the most amount of time on placement and the least amount of time on post production. And when you do almost anything can sound good.

It also reminded me of the Beatles recordings.. And how good they sounded.. Back then eq was not really as powerful as it is today. They might have had treble and bass controls on some of the early consoles. If they were lucky. But look what careful placement of a microphone can do.. I have to remind my self of that every time I do sound for a band. Mic placement first knob tweak second. I know its harder for you guys taping shows because you cant always get what you want :) As far as placement is concerned but some times you just might find with more careful placement you get what you need :)

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Offline bdasilva

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #54 on: March 25, 2008, 12:50:53 PM »
I recorded a show that had a 180KW generator 20' behind the stage... With Adobe Audition you can take a sample of the sound... and remove just that sound from the recording. While you are doing it.. you can monitor "keep just the sound" and see how much of the source material you might be loosing or "remove the sound" and hear how good it is not to hear the whine over your recording. At first it seems heavy handed but its not. Heavy handed is running your show thru a multiband compressor plugin to dig the vocals out of the mix.
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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #55 on: March 25, 2008, 12:55:12 PM »
Heavy handed is running your show thru a multiband compressor plugin to dig the vocals out of the mix.

QFT

Offline Dede2002

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #56 on: March 25, 2008, 03:32:33 PM »
Heavy handed is running your show thru a multiband compressor plugin to dig the vocals out of the mix.

QFT

I'm trying to learn as much as I can in this board. Not about taping only.
So this is my question at this time: what is QFT?
(Please PM if the response is not allowed for under 18 years old people  ;D ;D ;D)
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Offline bdasilva

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #57 on: March 25, 2008, 03:36:29 PM »
Quoted For Truth...

Quite F#ckin True
Cad E300S set.. AT822  AKG C 414 B-XLS/ST  
Dorsey-Mod MK-012 w/ O, C, H and RED L/D Caps
Superlux S502 ORTF   LSD2
Silverpath  Cables> 
Tascam DR-680MKii    DR- 680 (X2)   Tascam DR-40     Sound Devices USBPre    SONY  PMD-M10   Zoom F8

"Buy a Taper a Drink... Prime the Pumps of live Music"


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Offline Dede2002

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #58 on: March 25, 2008, 03:44:30 PM »
Quoted For Truth...

Quite F#ckin True

I was quite sure about the "F"  ;D
Thanks ;)
Mics..........................SP-CMC-8, HLSC-1 and HLSO-MICRO
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Offline evilchris

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #59 on: March 25, 2008, 04:08:20 PM »
Despite taping since 2001, I'm still a n00b compared to the vast majority of folks around here.

When I release a show, however, I do a few simple things:
- Normalize (I'm almost always too conservative with my levels, so as to avoid clipping)
- Modest, if any, EQ (to take out boomy bass or shrill highs)
- Fade in/out at the beginning/end.

Sometimes, I'll take out the crowd cheering before an encore if it'll let the whole show fit onto one disc.  Otherwise, what you hear is what I pulled.
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Offline KLowe

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #60 on: March 25, 2008, 04:17:04 PM »
I almost always do two things to most of my shows before released into "torrent land"
1.  Roll off the bass (anything below 40hz gets chopped).  My personal system can't hack it..so it goes.  Also...I find that most of the "Mud" lives in this area.

2.  Presence boost.  To my ears almost any live recording (besides umphreys  ;D Kudos to KB)....needs a bit of a presence boost for vocals and guitar.

I don't use a set EQ for any show.  Open in SF 8 > freq analysis (to see where all the mud is living) > EQ to taste using the envelope setting > normalize and then let it fly.

Only unamplified stuff is left alone....but getting unamped stuff is a rarity.

KLowe
I actually work for a living with music, instead of you jerk offs who wish they did.

bwaaaahahahahahaha.... that is awesome!

Offline evilchris

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #61 on: March 25, 2008, 04:23:31 PM »
Open in SF 8 > freq analysis (to see where all the mud is living) > EQ to taste using the envelope setting > normalize and then let it fly.

i don't know shit about using envelopes.  time to learn.
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Offline jmz93

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #62 on: March 26, 2008, 12:06:59 PM »
My attitude towards this is simple. If you really know what your doing and you have good reference monitors and you can make your recording sound better WHY NOT? Do what you can to make it more enjoyable for

Hi Chris. I'm curious what you use as monitors... KRK? Tanoi? Behringer? (kidding on the last one)

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #63 on: March 27, 2008, 03:58:24 PM »
My attitude towards this is simple. If you really know what your doing and you have good reference monitors and you can make your recording sound better WHY NOT? Do what you can to make it more enjoyable for

Hi Chris. I'm curious what you use as monitors... KRK? Tanoi? Behringer? (kidding on the last one)


No my son.. I use Genelec 1033's I got them used from a sound company I used to work for they were a steal. But I have also used "smaart" and done some slight corrective eq for my room via a 10 band parametric eq. I am also using a Axiom 350 watt 12" sub for ultra low end below 40hz. Just to flatten the low end down to 20hz.
 
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Offline dgale

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Re: Post Production of Tapers Recordings
« Reply #64 on: March 29, 2008, 12:52:48 PM »
Anytime I feel the need to do any post-recording tweaking, I always make sure to save the original raw recording.  THis way I always have the original file and not some altered version, but at the same time I can tweak it if I feel the need to improve the listening experience.  Same story with 24/48 and other non 16/44.1 recordings - I always end up dithering and resampling to get to 16/44.1 but it would be pointless to then toss the original file...at technology continues to evolve, you'll regret not saving the original raw file at the highest bit depth and sampling rate possible.  What tweaking may sound good to my ears today or on whatever playback system I'm using I may realize down the road sounds inferior to the original raw file or else could be better improved with newer technology and/or improved knowledge and skills in mastering...hence I'll be glad I still have that original file.
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