Topic: Few newbie questions (new, general)

[Chaosu]

Hello
I have read some FAQs etc. also contacted one local taper and he explained me some stuff but I'm still left with some unanswered questions. I haven't decided yet if I'll go into taping because it seems to be very expensive (especially for students, also I live in Poland so I have to multiple all prices by 2 or more). Everything is related
I am attending about 10-20 gigs per year, mostly on big festivals/stadiums(loud) but also in concert halls(moderate) and sometimes in theatres/other smaller venues(quiet), sometimes in clubs(loud). Interested in only stealth recording. First question:
1. Is it possible to tape all of them properly using one set of mics? My local taper prefers carioids (especially for loud and big areas, to not to catch many shouts etc.) but will I make good use of them in theater where silence is kept but I'm away from stage (lets say balcoons). In every case I'm hearing good but how about my mics? : )
2. I am short, does that matter much? I heard its best to mount mics as high as possible, but I'm not wearing hats etc usually.
3. Concerning mics stuff. What are caps etc, I'm lost with all that names, I need pics to see and understand : )
4. Concerning cables. I saw in 'star here' topic that 'we wont get into cables right now' but I couldn't find a topic explaing what kind of cables are needed for what and how much they cost (and I need to know costs).
5. If i need differend kind of mics for different venues, do I need different battery boxes (or whatever is needed for mics)?
6. I will probably buy new recorder (I want warranty) but I rest of stuff don't necessary need to be new. Whats the danger of buying 'used' mics, battery box, and (what else is needed).
7. Lets say I will record in wrong venue with wrong mics mounted on the height of my arms (150cm) and I will get 'boomy' (distanced) recording with many surrounding sounds. How much can be done in digitall processing to make it better. Can I (and others) still enjoy it (even raw recording)?

Thanks in advance for detailed answers, links to answered questions are welcome too. Be prepared for another set after answering these : )
Philip.

[DisturbedPyro]

welcome. i was hear not too long ago asking similar questions myself. im surly no expert and still dont know most of what the experts around here talk about, but thanks to everyone here that helped me, i am now a (stealth) taper and have successfully taped a handful of shows. the expense factor was a big conern for me too. the biggest thing is to get a rig you will be happy with for a long time (if not permanently) to begin with so you dont go cheap, get some bad gear, and then want to upgrade soon after. that will just be a waste of money.

heres what i did:
if you want your gear to be cheap but still with good quality, an iriver (h120/140/320/340) is the way to go in my opinion. you can get a used one on ebay for a pretty cheap price if you keep your eyes open and have some patience. as for mics, Church-Audio STC-11 Cardioid Mics are great, and get yourself a BAT-2B (battery box to power the mics.) get the last two used if possible if you want to save more cash. thats what i got and i lucked out and found some good deals; got it all for a total of $200

iriver h320 (used on ebay) - $70
mics and batbox (used from a member here on taperssection) - $130

most irivers on ebay go for more than $70 but if you keep your eyes open, and have some patience, youll find one eventually that will fall under ppls radar so you can grab it for cheap. as for the mics and batbox, well i got lucky on those too. found a guy to sell em both used for a really good price. the mics alone when theyre new cost around that much

now to your questions:

1. i believe so yes. the experts here may disagree but to my knowledge, i dont see why a good pair of carioids wouldnt be appropriate for any venue type. you just may have to adjust your gain to accomodate (if you dont know what gain is, i can explain. it took me a while to know what ppl were talking about when they said "gain")
2. it is best to mount them high. if theyre down low, too much stuff in the way (like ppl) and the sound wont have a clear path to the mics. so higher is better. i never used to wear hats to shows either. im not a hat person anyway, but now that i tape, i wear one. a hat is the way to to in my opinion. the mics are as high up on you as they can be that way
3. there are two kinds of mics that are regularly refered to and used by tapers: cardioid (cards) and omnidirectional (omni.) omni caps are little capsules that go on the end of your cardioid mics to make them omni mics. the difference between the two i cant really explain that well, as i dont completely understand how it works. all i know is the omnis take in sound from all angles, or at least multible angles while the cardioids take in sound from where the mics are pointed at. have someone else that really gets it explain how it works. anytime someone tries with me i get confused as to what the hell theyre talking about, lol
4. cables, well it depends on the rig you get. if you have my exact rig, the only cable you need is a little guy that connects the river to the batbox. then the mics plug into the bat box as well, and thats it. i dont know the nam/kind/size or whatever of the cable i have, it came along with the mics and batbox that i got from the member here. so i dont know how to tell you what cable it is. sorry
5. you shouldnt, but im not positive. the bat box should power either cardioid or omnis all the same
6. hm, well, if you want warranty, iriver is out of the question. because they dont make them anymore. the only way to get a new one is to find somethat that has one that they never opened. you cant buy them from a store or manufactorer. if you want cheap but still good quality, a used iriver is your best bet. if youre absolutely against getting a used recorder, youre price range is going way up. danger of buying used mics and bat box...well, if they wernt properly taken care of, all kinds of things could go wrong. you might get feedback with the mics, the bat box might not provide as much power as it should if its too old and has a bad connection or something. im not saying dont go used, because i did, just make sure who you get it all from says they are in great condition. check the yard sale here on taperssection, ppl here are the best of the best so im sure you wont get a crap piece of equipment that is damaged or not taken care of
7. this all depends on what you consider to be a good and bad recording. the wrong mics and wrong venue thing might not be that big of a problem. as long as you have good gear, and have the gain levels set appropriately for the type of venue and loudness of that venue, it shouldnt be too big of a problem. at arm length, you will have a lot of things in the way. if you think about when youre at a show, standing behind people, where are your shoulders? they are prolly to the upper back or shoulder level of the person/people in front of you. so if the mics are pointed there instead of up high, above everyone's body, the sound will have to go through everyone thats in your way to reach the mics. if they are up high (head level, like with a hat) there will be far less in the way for a direct path of the sound to go into your mics. so i would advise getting the mics as high as possible. use a hat. as for digital processing in post recording...it depends on how good you are at messing with the recording. audacity is a good program and has been recommended to me a lot. also "cool edit pro" i think another one is called. you can certainly make a recording sound better with altering it, but you cannt make a shit recording into a good one. if its shit to start with, theres usually not much you can do. but if its just a matter of removing the boomy bass sound, or making it louder, that can be done

good luck, and ask anything else you need

[Chaosu]

Thanks! I'll think about it and list some questions later but if someone wants to add something, You're welcome : ) Just please don't go into 'what to buy' stuff, I did my own research from other topic and this is so far explained. I'm thinking about flash drive recorder (because cards can be used to many things, not only recording) and I'm satisfied with my mp3 player so I don't need another.
Regarding #3, so caps are not what I am thinking about (omnis), but clips, clips are needed to clip mics to hats, right? Mics don't come with clips?
Regarding #4, I understand that cables and stuff are most important for soundboard recording and all that professional stuff (if only one is needed for typical stealth gear).
Regarding hats, it's not possible (especially with short hairs) to make cables invisible to others while mounting mics on hats right?
Regarding #7. What I meant is that I heard some bad recordings (lets say early Foo Fighters). They were boomy and had many surrounding sounds. But I still enjoyed them. I wonder if the quality really matter that much for a fan, don't they enjoy recordings anyway? I got better example, early RHCP, bad sound but I'm still very excited to hear (among general loudness) them covering acdc back to black... Why I'm asking, I am a little afraid that I may buy gear and give up after few bad attempts. I may get motivated as well, but what was You experience?

[Brian Skalinder]

Re caps

Some microphones are modular, others are not.  Non-modular microphones typically have the mic capsule and microphone body permanently attached to one another.  The mic capsule contains the diaphragm and vents, etc. that determine the microphone's polar pattern (omni, cardioid, hypercardioid, etc.).  The mic body contains other electronics that amplify the signal, provide connection to the mic cables, etc.  With modular microphones, one may remove the mic capsule from the mic body and replace it with a different one.  This allows one to have multiple caps (each with a different polar pattern) that one may use on the same microphone body.

Here's a pic of a microphone (Neumann KM184) that is non-modular:



The capsule does not remove from the microphone body.  It's fixed.  The above picture is of a cardioid microphone.  If one wants to purchase a hypercardioid microphone of the same type, one must buy a Neumann KM185, the hypercardioid version of this microphone.  It looks very similar to the one above, but has a different polar pattern.

Using Schoeps as an example (expensive!):

Here's a pic of two CMC-6 (just the model name) microphone bodies - one with a capsule about to be attached (left), one without a capsule at all:



And here's a list of the different capsules one may attach to the microphone body.

So if one wants to buy this Schoeps microphone in both cardioid and hypercardioid, one only needs to buy the CMC-6 microphone body once, and then add two pairs of caps:  one pair cardioid, one pair hypercardioid.

Other, less expensive microphones (often much smaller than the mics above, if that's of interest) also sometimes offer a removable capsule on some models:  Sound Professionals has some models, so does Church Audio.

[DisturbedPyro]

Thanks! I'll think about it and list some questions later but if someone wants to add something, You're welcome : ) Just please don't go into 'what to buy' stuff, I did my own research from other topic and this is so far explained. I'm thinking about flash drive recorder (because cards can be used to many things, not only recording) and I'm satisfied with my mp3 player so I don't need another.
Regarding #3, so caps are not what I am thinking about (omnis), but clips, clips are needed to clip mics to hats, right? Mics don't come with clips?
Regarding #4, I understand that cables and stuff are most important for soundboard recording and all that professional stuff (if only one is needed for typical stealth gear).
Regarding hats, it's not possible (especially with short hairs) to make cables invisible to others while mounting mics on hats right?
Regarding #7. What I meant is that I heard some bad recordings (lets say early Foo Fighters). They were boomy and had many surrounding sounds. But I still enjoyed them. I wonder if the quality really matter that much for a fan, don't they enjoy recordings anyway? I got better example, early RHCP, bad sound but I'm still very excited to hear (among general loudness) them covering acdc back to black... Why I'm asking, I am a little afraid that I may buy gear and give up after few bad attempts. I may get motivated as well, but what was You experience?

#3depends on who/where youre getting the mics from. most ppl i assume would include clips with the mics. but no clips and caps are two different things. the clips are used to clip the mic onto the hat or whatever
#4 when you have short hair, it can be more difficult to hide the cables. but be inventive, think of a way to cover them. a cheap wig perhaps under the hat so the fake hair covers the mic cords maybe? just an idea. theres ways around it
#7 i never personally had any bad experience with taping. i dont know if it was just begginers luck or what. but ive been happy with every recording ive produced. and mine tend to be better than most of the bands of which i collect. most recordings (for the bands i collect anyway) dont have very good recordings. i dont know if ppl just dont use the right gear or what, but ive been satisfied with my results. its better than what im used to with the recordings ive previously listened to of my fav bands. so dont get discouraged

[jamroom]

Regarding #7. What I meant is that I heard some bad recordings (lets say early Foo Fighters). They were boomy and had many surrounding sounds. But I still enjoyed them. I wonder if the quality really matter that much for a fan, don't they enjoy recordings anyway? I got better example, early RHCP, bad sound but I'm still very excited to hear (among general loudness) them covering acdc back to black... Why I'm asking, I am a little afraid that I may buy gear and give up after few bad attempts. I may get motivated as well, but what was You experience?

Compared to many recordings I have collected that were taped back in the 60s / 70s / 80s, the ones I recorded at the beginning of this year blew me away how good they were, considering what I was expecting. Get some decent gear and get taping - you won't regret it, you'll love it!

[Chaosu]

After hours spent on browsing forum and thinking about I come with another set of questions, topic changed from general stuff and gear to recording! (I hope I'll succesfullly manage to get to postproduction later)
-edit- My first gear: SP CMC-4s (AT-853s) > SP-SPSB-10 > Edirol R-09HR
1. Most recordings aren't perfect. They have clippings/are clipping, they are bummy, moldy(or muldy); crackles and pops; brickwalled. I don't understand a single word. Any help? I'll have and R09, so is there any possibility to check for it during recording or whatever any info is appreciated.

2. Bass rolloff. I found much more about it. Best not to use unless necessery (very helpful tip). Two questions: I shouldn't turn on the HPF if mics are capable of sound, but my guess is that I can't check if mics are capable other by using them unless I come to the situation where they won't be capable of the bass? Q2: When my chest is thumping (love that btw) is it the point where I surely have to turn the HPF on, or it may be not necessary yet. When explaining please take a while to explain me what Mhz and db have to do with actual sound, all I know about music is how to turn winamp on, if You can tell me where are low and where are high sounds, thanks in advance.

3. How my behavior affects recording? I know, jumping and talking is prohibited. Yelling, my guess too, but is clapping (double p?) allowed? If yes, better to clap over Your head, or at chest level?

4. Common mistakes: (especially refering to R09) not switching to external mics, accidental pressing random buttons, using used batteries, anything else? (I saw similar questions on forum so this q may be skipped easily)

5. Frequency/sampling. R09 is good, but 48/96 (whatever that means) is probably far over my needs. What option I should pick up? Whats the difference (I know that something helps to get lower sounds, may be helpful in first recordings if I take too low gain (i dont have preamp yet)).

6. How to set default options (R09 have some). I know it was explained somewhere so link to correct post is enought.

I have read too many topic and I'm getting more and more lost now with every new one, thats why I'm not seearching for info that I saw but not remembered yet, so if there is a good post which answer a question, link will be enough help. Thanks in advance for answers, You guys are really helpful! : )

[Humbug]

After hours spent on browsing forum and thinking about I come with another set of questions, topic changed from general stuff and gear to recording! (I hope I'll succesfullly manage to get to postproduction later)

1. Most recordings aren't perfect. They have clippings/are clipping, they are bummy, moldy(or muldy); crackles and pops. I don't understand a single word. Any help? I'll have and R09, so is there any possibility to check for it during recording or whatever any info is appreciated.

All recordings aren't perfect..you're taping a live gig, with all it's imperfections..crackles from the PA, a sound man messing with levels, or just plain getting the mix wrong. Just stand in the sweet spot and hope for the best.

By the way, stealth mics can and will be used for "open taping", where you either mount them on a stand, or masking tape them onto a pillar in the room.

3. How my behavior affects recording? I know, jumping and talking is prohibited. Yelling, my guess too, but is clapping (double p?) allowed? If yes, better to clap over Your head, or at chest level?

Crotch level or lower, try to limit this.

4. Common mistakes: (especially refering to R09) not switching to external mics, accidental pressing random buttons, using used batteries, anything else? (I saw similar questions on forum so this q may be skipped easily)

Oh, mostly cables getting loose, standing in the wrong spot. Nothing wrong with used batteries in low current draw applications - I tend to replace the ones in my battery boxes every year or so, but test regularly with a battery tester.

Just try it, you'll have fun! Picked any mics yet? This affects (2).

[Humbug]

2. Ah, seen you've added mics. For my setup bass roll off makes no difference except on the highest setting (888Hz), where it's too much! This (strangely enough) depends on what recorder you're using - for example it does make a difference for (some) minidisc players, and I've no experience of the R09.

I like running the AT853s without bass roll off.

You may (or may not) run into overloading problems with these mics, in which case the 4.7k resistor mod, or 3-wire powering the mics will help - Chris Church can do either of these. Obviously try them with your chosen bands/venues a few times to see how they work. 

[Chaosu]

Thanks for answers!
I saw some talks about these mods, now I know they prevent overloading. But what does that mean? Whats may be overloaded? How this affect my recording or just what does that do? (Please remember You are talking with complete newbie)

[Humbug]

I taped Velvet Revolver (a loud rock band) with standard CMC4 mics > SPSPSB1 > Nomad JB3, and the mics overloaded - they could not handle the sound pressure and I got distortion. Luckily I was also running my CMC2s, and they were fine.

Fo quieter venues / bands, I think they will be fine.

[morst]

3. How my behavior affects recording? I know, jumping and talking is prohibited. Yelling, my guess too, but is clapping (double p?) allowed? If yes, better to clap over Your head, or at chest level?

Clap away from the microphones, and don't clap loud. When the rest of the crowd starts to quiet down, stop clapping. In fact, you might want to "FAKE CLAP" where it looks like you are clapping, but you don't really make any noise. 

[sunjan]

-edit- My first gear: SP CMC-4s (AT-853s) > SP-SPSB-10 > Edirol R-09HR

Hey Chaosu,

I don't know how much you're paying for the soundpro kit (they bundle is retailing for $259). If you just top up a bit more cash, you can get the Church combo for $289 + shipping, which is a much better deal in my eyes. Remember, the Church 9100 is a pre, not a bbox, which gives you gain and more versatility:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,90474.0.html

Regarding your last bunch of questions:

1. You're wondering about problematic recordings, and how they sound. Just browse DIME and download some stuff, you'll quickly get an understanding what descriptions mean.

2. And yes, I think you can monitor R09-HR while taping, just bring a set of in-ear headphones. That way you'll discover if your mics can't handle the SPL or other problems arise.

You're wondering about frequency (Hz) and mic characteristics. Maybe there's a FAQ out there? Check Wikipedia. You should open a WAV in Audacity and play around... You'll get a better understanding about how waveforms are shown.

3. Behavior when taping? You're a living mic stand, remember. When you get your gear, go to some unimportant show first (local pub band or youth club next door). Tape the gig and experiment clapping, singing along etc. Listen to the tape and judge what's acceptable in your ears!

4, 5, 6. You should go to the team boards and join the R09 team. They can answer model-specific questions much better...

[Brian Skalinder]

4, 5, 6. You should go to the team boards and join the R09 team. They can answer model-specific questions much better...

Better yet, post recorder-specific questions in the Recording Gear forum, so others have easy, long-term access to it.  We have in the past, and may in the future, purge non-core parts of the board (including Team forums).

[Chaosu]

1. You're wondering about problematic recordings, and how they sound. Just browse DIME and download some stuff, you'll quickly get an understanding what descriptions mean.

Well, I heard many different recordings and I know how it sounds but I don't know how it is named! Please understand that english is my secondary language (I'm from eastern Europe). In example, the only clipping that I know is the one from newspaper... I can guess what muldy means... but I couldn't figure the others: clipping, pops, brickwalling. And yes I looked them up in dictionary...

Regarding other questions, well, trying, trying, trying, I understand that and Im prepared for that (especially mentally).

And about gear, yes I know about CA preamp and mics, but I'll have most different gigs in july so I didn't wanted to loss oportunity to gain experience on them. I paid a little about 60% of CA bundle price and I couldn't invest more, but Chris stuff will be taken into consideration first when doing an upgrade.

And about clapping, thats because I'm very young (not 20 yet), I'm very calm for my age but I fell like I should 'be active' during gigs because I'm young and healthy : )

I guess this will be all for now thanks for help and I hope to come with 'postproduction' questions in 2-3 weeks : )