Topic: Potential Service Issues with Soundfield - Problem Resolved!

[F0CKER]

A little while back I posted about having problem with my New Soundfiled ST350.  Bought it new in Dec '07 and also got a used 744T so I could run the unit B Format.  I used the two in unison in B Format without any issues about a dozen times, no problems at all.  About 3 months ago, I had an issue where the signal going into the 744 seemed to lock up somewhere between the 45 minute - 1:30 mark.  All I saw on the 744T was constant metering locked in, and all I hear is a low level hum in the audio file.  It does not happen every time, but I'd say 65% is a fair estimate.  I have about 10 botched recordigns becasue of this.

I sent the 744 to SD thinking it was a problem with the deck, they tested it thoroughly and came back saying it was not a problem and sent the unit back to me.  During that time I had a chance to run the SoundField stereo out into a borrowed 722.  Same problem, about 45 minutes into a recording, the meters locked up and all I have is a low level hum.  So now I'm convinced it's an issue with the ST350

I sent the ST350 back to Soundfield where the engineer told me because it was such a unique problem he wanted to look at it personally but he was going out of the country for 2 weeks and will make it a priority when he gets back.  He got back last Tuesday and I sent a follow up email on Wed to check in and communicate my timeframe to have the unit back.  Keep in mind they've had the unit for 3 weeks and it's finally getting looked at.  I emailed again to follow up, no response.  I email again last night to follow up and got this response (now 4 weeks in)
 
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you…
 
We have been checking over your ST350 thoroughly and have not managed to find anything wrong. We have also been testing it with our 744T (both on batteries and mains) and it keeps on running/recording perfectly.
 
The only difference in our setup I can think of are the battery system/batteries you use, maybe the power is somehow glitching which is freezing the recorder.
 
Apologies for not being more conclusive… I presume the best thing to do is for us to send the ST350 back to you.
 
Thanks,
 
xxxxxxx

For the record, I've been using the battery supply built by Soundfield (Sorry Nick's Picks, I ended up breaking down and buying their's because it was more compact).  So it cannot be a powering issue.  It's the power supply they make.

So now both SD and Soundfield are telling me it's not their unit and their testing worked fine, but I know from field use the 350 failed multiple times, at least 6-7 times, and on my deck and another deck.  Meanwhile, I borrowed a friends AKG's to run with my 744 and everything worked fine so I can assume it's not my deck.   So to sum up.  The St350 failed with both a 744 and a 722.  And The 744 worked perfectly outside of the ST350.  So I'm 100% sure the ST350 is the issue.  And they're saying it's not.

What would you recommend me doing?  I'm feeling like I'm in a unique spot because neither side can replicate my issue, though I can provide samples to evidence it happening.  Should I just request a new unit from Soundfield?  What is the correct protocol.  My gut feel from Soundfield tells me they aren't going to replace something they can't replicate, and I can't seem to replicate this issue anywhere but in the field.  I feel I have a unrelaible product I paid $7k for.  What is the best next move?

[F0CKER]

Also, FWIW this was my response back to SF after the email above...

Can you tell me how long you ran the 350?  My failures happened at anywhere between 45 minutes to 1hour 30 minutes.  I'm a little concerned at this point because it's failed multiple times on both my 744 and different 722 using stereo out and B Format out so it isn't specific to my machine only.  I use the Soundfield battery systems provided by you, so there shouldn't be any difference in power supplies.  I included my battery harness to test it against.  I'm at a loss here because it isn't a one time issue.  I can send samples of where the unit failed if you like.  I'm not comfortable that problem has been solved as neither yourselves nor Sound Devices has been able to replicate the issue, but it's happened to me at least 6-8 times. 

Also, what settings did you use on the 744A?  What file split size, what bit depth and sample rates?  What firmware on the 744T were you using? etc...ANy info would be helpful.  I'd appreciate a response back today please so I can plan accordingly if this isn't going to be resolved. 


Please advise, I'm not sure how to proceed.  I'm certainly not comfortable right now. 

I don't feel sending it back is the answer, but if you feel sending it back to me is the answer and it fails again, what would you recommend is the answer?  For what it's worth I ran my 744 with a different set of mics severaltimes with no issues, so the problem lies with the ST350.  Understand my frustration.  I spent $7,000 on a mic that is not reliable.  I trust I have Soundfield's backing that if it fails again, they will supply a replacement unit for me to test.

[illconditioned]

Sorry to hear your problems.  Nothing like getting (expensive) gear that does not work.  Been there, done that.

How to deal with it?  Well, what I did was make sure I have another rig to use in the meantime.  Can you do that?  Borrow something.  Take the stress off.  That was easy because I've got so much gear.  Not sure about you.

Now to your problem.  You haven't tested the Soundfield power supply have you?  If you sent just the mic, perhaps this is the problem.  Is it a battery or mains power supply?  Maybe tell them to hold onto your mic, send your power supply in, and ask them to record until it is out of juice.

  Richard

[datbrad]

Did you send them your preamp and battery supply, or just the mic and they used their own stuff?

If you sent them everything for the ST350, including the battery they made, then I would say that you should ask for more extensive testing. Look, the dude was out of country for weeks, then answers your 3rd email in a day with a result of testing that say's "not us".

I say that you have done due dilligence. I have seen the failure happen myself, twice I think. I know you were pissed at that last line about the best thing for them to do is send it back to you. How about a check for 7K buddy?

Call back and ask for the manager of customer service, turn on the charm, and tell him/her you cannot believe a company as reputable and high end as Soundfield would treat a paying customer this way. Explain the steps you took to eliminate the recorder as a factor, and that you are often recording for archival purposes and no band is going to want to accept a 45% chance you will get a complete pull.

Ask for them to test it further, letting it record a loud source for 2 hours straight, recharge the batteries, and do it one more time. Then, you could better accept the "not us" response.

[F0CKER]

Sorry to hear your problems.  Nothing like getting (expensive) gear that does not work.  Been there, done that.

How to deal with it?  Well, what I did was make sure I have another rig to use in the meantime.  Can you do that?  Borrow something.  Take the stress off.  That was easy because I've got so much gear.  Not sure about you.

Now to your problem.  You haven't tested the Soundfield power supply have you?  If you sent just the mic, perhaps this is the problem.  Is it a battery or mains power supply?  Maybe tell them to hold onto your mic, send your power supply in, and ask them to record until it is out of juice.

  Richard

Nope, I sent them the power supply too, everything exactly as I used it in the field was sent to them, all Soundfield Factory gear. Minus my 744 and my mic stand.

[F0CKER]

Did you send them your preamp and battery supply, or just the mic and they used their own stuff?

If you sent them everything for the ST350, including the battery they made, then I would say that you should ask for more extensive testing. Look, the dude was out of country for weeks, then answers your 3rd email in a day with a result of testing that say's "not us".

I say that you have done due dilligence. I have seen the failure happen myself, twice I think. I know you were pissed at that last line about the best thing for them to do is send it back to you. How about a check for 7K buddy?

Call back and ask for the manager of customer service, turn on the charm, and tell him/her you cannot believe a company as reputable and high end as Soundfield would treat a paying customer this way. Explain the steps you took to eliminate the recorder as a factor, and that you are often recording for archival purposes and no band is going to want to accept a 45% chance you will get a complete pull.

Ask for them to test it further, letting it record a loud source for 2 hours straight, recharge the batteries, and do it one more time. Then, you could better accept the "not us" response.

I think talking to mgmt is my next step..I have the service manager right now.   If he says no to my email, then I'll go up the ladder.  They had to wait for a 744 to test my mic but that's about it.  I sernt them everything, mic, preamp, battery harness (but not the actual batteries - they're the LiOn you would use in a 7xx series box.  I'm sort of prepping myself for when they come back and say they won't replace it until they can replicate the failure.  But the way I see it, it seems like the testing done was limited becausse I had to follow up three times for a response and all they said was we couldn;t replicate it.  I don't know any of the settings or stresses they put the unit under to test.

[Brian Skalinder]

Regardless of the next course of action you decide to take, I recommend doing it by phone, not email.  Email's are easy to shrug off, don't feel personal, etc.  IME, in difficult customer service situations, phone is the only way to go (well, in person's better, but it's rare we have an opportunity to do so).  Take good notes, and then, after speaking by phone, send an email summarizing the discussion.

[rustoleum]

I think you did the right thing by asking such detailed questions on how they reproduced it... had a similar problem with m-audio regarding MTII tests.  The dude kept telling me he couldn't reproduce a problem.  I finally asked him exactly how long he ran a test, what size CF card he was using, etc, and it came out that he wasn't reproducing the scenario the way I had asked him to.  When he finally did a test similar to what I was doing it was impossible not to see the problem and they owned up to it.

[F0CKER]

Regardless of the next course of action you decide to take, I recommend doing it by phone, not email.  Email's are easy to shrug off, don't feel personal, etc.  IME, in difficult customer service situations, phone is the only way to go (well, in person's better, but it's rare we have an opportunity to do so).  Take good notes, and then, after speaking by phone, send an email summarizing the discussion.

I engaged the US retailer who sold me the unit who I became friendly with.  He represents the entire US market and we spoke in great detail about the issue.  I forwarded him the email chain and expressed my concerns.  Hopefully he can act as a buffer and mediate the situation if it gets difficult...or act as an ally.

The primary issue I have is Soundfield failing to offer alternatives for solution.  The brief "we couldn't find a problem, let us send it back to you" is a little upsetting.  Boy Soundfield, you really go the extra mile for your customer don't you?  You wait 3 weeks to test it, then test for a day or two (actually I have no idea how involved your testing was you never told me!) and say sorry, we'll send it back to you.  sheesh.

[Kindguy]

The primary issue I have is Soundfield failing to offer alternatives for solution.  The brief "we couldn't find a problem, let us send it back to you" is a little upsetting.  Boy Soundfield, you really go the extra mile for your customer don't you?  You wait 3 weeks to test it, then test for a day or two (actually I have no idea how involved your testing was you never told me!) and say sorry, we'll send it back to you.  sheesh.

Exactly. Pretty weak. You need a replacement.

[F.O.Bean]

I would DEMAND they replicate your tests exactly, and go from there. I would say "I dont want it back unless you can replicate my issues without a botched recording"

[F0CKER]

I would DEMAND they replicate your tests exactly, and go from there. I would say "I dont want it back unless you can replicate my issues without a botched recording"

I'll take that route Bean I just can't seem to get more than one or two sentence replies from them.  Absolutely no detail at all.  To differentiate, Nick at Sound Devices was in constant communication, thorough and trying very hard to find a workable solution.  I couldn't have asked for better service.  In some ways I wish it was an issue with the 744, at least then I'd have confidence they'd work to satisfy me. 

Soundfield, I've lost a lot of faith in your company.  I hope this comes to an agreeable end.  I'd hate to think I spent all that money to get a faulty product, one which they won't fully back..especially considering it's only 5 months old.  I might be jumping too far ahead, but they've given me no assurances they intend to rectify this situation.

Anyone want to buy a used Soundfield?  I might be back to schoeps before long.

[Tim]

Regardless of the next course of action you decide to take, I recommend doing it by phone, not email.  Email's are easy to shrug off, don't feel personal, etc.  IME, in difficult customer service situations, phone is the only way to go (well, in person's better, but it's rare we have an opportunity to do so).  Take good notes, and then, after speaking by phone, send an email summarizing the discussion.

The one advantage to email is that everything is clearly documented. That would be my only caution against this advice. It's your call but there are pros/cons to phone and email. I'd be most concerned with having everything accurately documented. This is a high dollar item and if things go south you don't want it to turn into a "he said, he said" situation. You want dates, times and every word exactly as they wrote it. That's the legal training in me coming through, not saying it will come to anything that extreme but you want to cover yourself and be able to hold them accountable.

[bugg100]

Sorry to ask, but now is the time to.....

Did you send the cabling between the mic and pre and from the pre to recorder?

From the pre to recorder would be easy enought swap, but probably a proprietary cable to the mic, right?  Did that one go to Soundfield, if so it should get run the same way you run it(bag,etc).

Good luck,
Joe

[F0CKER]

Sorry to ask, but now is the time to.....

Did you send the cabling between the mic and pre and from the pre to recorder?

From the pre to recorder would be easy enought swap, but probably a proprietary cable to the mic, right?  Did that one go to Soundfield, if so it should get run the same way you run it(bag,etc).

Good luck,
Joe

I sent them the whole rig as I would've used it in the field, minus the 744.  Yep, all the cables, everything, mic cable, B format breakout to 744 cable, cable for the power supply, the harness for the battery....everything minus the LiON batteries used, but they're pretty much standard and I used two different ones they sent to me.  The actualy batteries shouldn't be the issue..but who knows, maybe they are.  I can follow up on that point.

[rokpunk]

can you run your entire rig on AC power?
if so, eliminate the the batteries all together and see if it shows the same issue.
at least that way you can narrow it down to a powering issue (which it sounds like to me).

[F0CKER]

can you run your entire rig on AC power?
if so, eliminate the the batteries all together and see if it shows the same issue.
at least that way you can narrow it down to a powering issue (which it sounds like to me).

I didn't try that but I'll also suggest that to SF.  +T.

Any other thoughts for testing scenarios I can pose to SF anyone?

[Brian Skalinder]

The one advantage to email is that everything is clearly documented.

Good point.  Hence the additional recommendation to document the conversation via email.    I know, not quite the same as full email documentation through and through.  Good luck, F0CKER!

[F0CKER]

Thanks Brian!  I've been w/o a consistent rig for 4 months now almost and it's driving me f'ing crazy.

[T.J.]

crappy situation focker. i too have seen the problem first hand a couple times. i have a feeling they are not trying to reproduce the problem exactly how it occured in the field. i would politely ask them again how long they ran their tests. the problem only happened after 45 to 90 minutes into a recording. perhaps they aren't giving it enough time.

good luck man.

[boojum]

I think SoundField's customer support is sorry.  I had a problem with my 722, sent it in, got it back and it still failed.  I told them I really needed it so they overnighted me a new one and asked I return the failing one in the box they sent out the new one in.  End of story.  SoundField should have done the same.  For the kind of money you spent you have a right to expect first class support.  I was not thinking of buying their gear, but now have definitely put it out of my mind.  This is not customer support.  It is evasion and equivocation.

Good luck, F0cker.

[F0CKER]

Wanted to drop by and give you guys the latest update.

I sent a note to SF with a list of recommended testing scenarios based one some of the feedback here, and expressed my concern on the feedback (or lack thereof) I'd previously received.  I followed that up with a call to the US retailer.  He in turn called SF to make sure the unit was getting the proper attention it deserves.  The issue was elevated at SF and they're going to scrutinize the unit to try to identify the problem. Probably something that doesn't require a phone call, but still good to hear.  I asked the US retailer that if worse came to worse and they could not replicate the problem what was his sense for how SF would resolve the situation.   He said, they would most likely replace it for me, he's never known them to leave a customer high and dry like that.  So that was reassuring.

On to some good news.  The US retailer is in Las Vegas, which just so happens to be the place I'm going next Thursday to see Tea Leaf Green for two nights.  I asked the US retailer for a loaner 350 to test while I was there and they agreed.  At least this way I'll know if a different unit has better success.  FWIW I've never had two back to back nights of success since the troubles started.  I've had a night here or there, but never two back to back...so this should be interesting.  +T to Las Vegas Audio for hooking me up with a test unit while I'm out there.

TJ, I should be good, no need to borrow your AKG's.  Thanks a bunch though!

[T.J.]

Wanted to drop by and give you guys the latest update.

I sent a note to SF with a list of recommended testing scenarios based one some of the feedback here, and expressed my concern on the feedback (or lack thereof) I'd previously received.  I followed that up with a call to the US retailer.  He in turn called SF to make sure the unit was getting the proper attention it deserves.  The issue was elevated at SF and they're going to scrutinize the unit to try to identify the problem. Probably something that doesn't require a phone call, but still good to hear.  I asked the US retailer that if worse came to worse and they could not replicate the problem what was his sense for how SF would resolve the situation.   He said, they would most likely replace it for me, he's never known them to leave a customer high and dry like that.  So that was reassuring.

On to some good news.  The US retailer is in Las Vegas, which just so happens to be the place I'm going next Thursday to see Tea Leaf Green for two nights.  I asked the US retailer for a loaner 350 to test while I was there and they agreed.  At least this way I'll know if a different unit has better success.  FWIW I've never had two back to back nights of success since the troubles started.  I've had a night here or there, but never two back to back...so this should be interesting.  +T to Las Vegas Audio for hooking me up with a test unit while I'm out there.

TJ, I should be good, no need to borrow your AKG's.  Thanks a bunch though!

the offer is still on the table if you ever what to use them locally. glad to hear you'll be able to get 4 channels out there.

good luck and have fun!

[fozzy]

Don't know if this has been stated already but if they are testing indoors ma be different than testing in real world conditions, may be battery heat issues

[F0CKER]

Don't know if this has been stated already but if they are testing indoors ma be different than testing in real world conditions, may be battery heat issues

I brought overheating up with them...sticking the gear in a camer bag, etc.

[mmedley.]

Just saw this one. Sorry to hear F0CKER. I am sure they will come through with a solution to make everyone happy.

[boojum]

F0cker, at least the US rep is doing the right thing: a no questions asked loaner.  I am glad you got to talk to the right person because you were being treated like a red-headed stepchild.  I hope you get an ace recording and no failures while recording.  Now that you have the US rep working for you they should clear this up pretty quickly. 

Cheers

[mmedley.]

How did the weekend in Vegas go Focker? Same issues? None?

[F.O.Bean]

How did the weekend in Vegas go Focker? Same issues? None?

I am also very curious. Hopefully it went well, and they just give him one that works with his exact setup.

[F0CKER]

Vegas went 100% with no issues on the loaner gear.  Perfectly both nights.  So I haven't made a complete recording in two consecutive nights with my unit since March, and with a loaner I made two back to back.

Soundfield is stickinh by their claim the unit is in perfect working order.  To add to the issue with me, they're now asking me to pay 90GBP to have the unit returned from the UK to me.  Have you ever had a situation where the retailer asked for return shipping on an item sent in to be fixed?  I asked for a certificate validating the product is in 100% working order and will be selling it on ebay.  I'm going back to Schoeps.

This is the worst customer service I've eve experienced, starting with the manufacturer.  Enough to warrant me not supporting their business.

To the TS.com community, consider yourself warned ever dealing with Soundfield.  They are not a company I'd recommend working with.  They don't value their customers and have been nothing short of a pain in the ass to get this resolved.  Outside of the US retailer who's been great.  Soundfield as a company has lost this customer forever.

[Brian Skalinder]

I'm going back to Schoeps.

I have some CMC6s and KC5s in the YS at what I think are nice prices. 

Great to hear the loaner worked out, sucks to hear corporate support won't deliver.  Any chance the US retailer is willing to swap units and send the bad one back to corporate for good, or otherwise intervene on your behalf?

[boojum]

Vegas went 100% with no issues on the loaner gear.  Perfectly both nights.  So I haven't made a complete recording in two consecutive nights with my unit since March, and with a loaner I made two back to back.

Soundfield is stickinh by their claim the unit is in perfect working order.  To add to the issue with me, they're now asking me to pay 90GBP to have the unit returned from the UK to me.  Have you ever had a situation where the retailer asked for return shipping on an item sent in to be fixed?  I asked for a certificate validating the product is in 100% working order and will be selling it on ebay.  I'm going back to Schoeps.

This is the worst customer service I've eve experienced, starting with the manufacturer.  Enough to warrant me not supporting their business.

To the TS.com community, consider yourself warned ever dealing with SoundField.  They are not a company I'd recommend working with.  They don't value their customers and have been nothing short of a pain in the ass to get this resolved.  Outside of the US retailer who's been great.  SoundField as a company has lost this customer forever.

F - sorry to see this unfold as it has.  You seem to have been sold a piece of faulty equipment by a manufacturer who will not make the deal right by exchanging a new setup for your old one.  You could be like them and just keep the loaner and tell them you will call it square.  Regardless, SF has handled this poorly.  The US distributor is trying to make it right but getting no support form the factory.  Maybe Lucas owns SoundField?   Good luck.    

[F0CKER]

Great to hear the loaner worked out, sucks to hear corporate support won't deliver.  Any chance the US retailer is willing to swap units and send the bad one back to corporate for good, or otherwise intervene on your behalf?

I asked him that, and he said he'd have to ask.  

The bottom line is Soundfield does not seem to care what my experience has been.  And then to know I'm unsatisfied and come in asking for return shipping is ludicrous.  

At this point I'll consider trades for the Soundfield for Schoeps.  But I'll need a whole rig to do it.  Otherwise I'll go to ebay...

[F0CKER]

boojum, at this point I want nothing to do with Soundfield and will take every opportunity I can to make people aware of how they treat their customers.

They should be ashamed of themselves. 

[illconditioned]

Vegas went 100% with no issues on the loaner gear.  Perfectly both nights.  So I haven't made a complete recording in two consecutive nights with my unit since March, and with a loaner I made two back to back.

Soundfield is stickinh by their claim the unit is in perfect working order.  To add to the issue with me, they're now asking me to pay 90GBP to have the unit returned from the UK to me.  Have you ever had a situation where the retailer asked for return shipping on an item sent in to be fixed?  I asked for a certificate validating the product is in 100% working order and will be selling it on ebay.  I'm going back to Schoeps.

This is the worst customer service I've eve experienced, starting with the manufacturer.  Enough to warrant me not supporting their business.

To the TS.com community, consider yourself warned ever dealing with Soundfield.  They are not a company I'd recommend working with.  They don't value their customers and have been nothing short of a pain in the ass to get this resolved.  Outside of the US retailer who's been great.  Soundfield as a company has lost this customer forever.

Call them on it.  If they *claim* your unit is working perfectly, ask them just to keep the loaner!

  Richard

[F0CKER]

I did.  But I had to return the loaner to Las Vegas audio as I left.  I made the suggestion, waiting to hear the response.  I think it's a fair suggestion, but again, Soundfield has made it perfectly clear to me that they have no intentions of making me happy as a customer. 

Without a doubt, they're the worst company I've ever dealt with. It's as if they think I'm lying and want a new unit.  For Christ's sake, my unit ios 6 months old and has been fucked up for 3 of them. 

Do the rigth thing, or don't do the right thing.

I told them if they send it back to me to have it clearly detailed out the unit has been factory tested and certified. 

The US retailer should make good on the trade, my unit for their demo.  It's the least they could do. 


Honestly, the fact they're asking me to pay for shipping back at 90GBP has me more fucking angry.

[T.J.]

Honestly, the fact they're asking me to pay for shipping back at 90GBP has me more fucking angry.

yeah, that's some BS! glad to hear you came home with the goods from vegas though.

come back to the darkside, the weather's fine 

[F0CKER]

Honestly, the fact they're asking me to pay for shipping back at 90GBP has me more fucking angry.

yeah, that's some BS! glad to hear you came home with the goods from vegas though.

come back to the darkside, the weather's fine 

No question I'm selling this unit if they don't agree to replace it with the loaner.  But now I'm in a spot where I'm selling something I believe to be faulty but will have to sell it with a factory certified tag that says the opposite.  I can try to run it a few times to see if it recurs, but at this point, I'd rather not use a product from a company like Soundfiled based on how they treat their customers.  I just have to find a buyer.

I probably won't need a 4 channel either so most likely my 744T will be up for sale too.

[Tim]

Vegas went 100% with no issues on the loaner gear.  Perfectly both nights.  So I haven't made a complete recording in two consecutive nights with my unit since March, and with a loaner I made two back to back.

Soundfield is stickinh by their claim the unit is in perfect working order.  To add to the issue with me, they're now asking me to pay 90GBP to have the unit returned from the UK to me.  Have you ever had a situation where the retailer asked for return shipping on an item sent in to be fixed?  I asked for a certificate validating the product is in 100% working order and will be selling it on ebay.  I'm going back to Schoeps.

This is the worst customer service I've eve experienced, starting with the manufacturer.  Enough to warrant me not supporting their business.

To the TS.com community, consider yourself warned ever dealing with Soundfield.  They are not a company I'd recommend working with.  They don't value their customers and have been nothing short of a pain in the ass to get this resolved.  Outside of the US retailer who's been great.  Soundfield as a company has lost this customer forever.

Duly noted. I'm sort of shocked that they are taking that stand, you'd think they'd do everything they could to make this right 

I remember a guy when I was growing up who drove around town with a giant lemon on the roof of his car and a sign on the side naming the dealership that sold it to him.

Soundfield's logo would look pretty good on this jpeg, no?

[mmedley.]

Focker, glad to hear you did not have a single problem over the weekend. I am sad to hear that they continue to treat you this way. Poorest of the poor in customer service if you ask me. It would take them all of 30 seconds to swap the unit (even if they feel it is in 100% working order and give you the benefit of the doubt). Keep holding onto the bears ass for a little while longer. I have faith everything will be resolved. Charging you for return shipping is ludicrous. I *might* understand if the unit was well out of the warranty period, but for something that is 6 months old? Gimme a break! I have really enjoyed the recordings you made with it regardless. I do not blame you for ditching it, but I am really hoping all this mess gets resolved and you can make some more recordings with it. 

I will trade you my rig straight up.

[F0CKER]

Well I raised a bit more hell, this time with the US wholesaler president.  I explained my case and they keep going back to the same old argument, the unit is 100% fine.  We'll send it back to you and you can test it again, and if it fails call us back and we can figuire out the next xtep.  The problem is they never define what the next step is going to be.  From my persectpve it means, send it back to be  tested again, and I get to pay $300 roundtrip shipping just for them to say we can't replicate it, sorry we'll send it back to you.  The owner of the whoelsaler wants me to wait 2 weeks until the owner of Soundfield comes back from vacation and he said he'll talk directly to them.  What they keep missing is they think the unit failed ionce and I sent it back.  I continue to reiterate that it's been happening consistently since March.  Then they said it must be a power issue, to which I said fine, I use your proprietary battery system.  The whole unit is Sound Field, top to bottom.   

What really cracked me up was the US Wholesaler kept trying to defend SF's lack of communication by saying they're a small company and they don't communicate well.  Tough...then they'll lose customers.  Customer Service is EVERYTHING.  Then he tried to convince me SF is selling this unit at a $10k loss just to get the name out there.  No joking.  He made the claim it's a $20k mic they sell well below cost just to promote the name.  How dumb do I sound.  I laughed at him and told him he had to be kidding if he thought I believed that.

I told him I've dealt with schoeps, neumann, AKG, Grace, Oade among others and all have paid return shipping and all have been more supportive top to bottom.  Again he went back to the fact that it's a small company and they don't have servie departments like the big ones do.  Again, not my fault. 

I agreed to let them hold the unit for two more weeks at which time the owner of the US Wholesaler will talk to the Owner of Soundfield and see what our options are.  I told him I want a clearly documented and outlined plan for the next steps if it fails and what they need from me to evidence it..picutres, videos of the meters locking.

The sad part is the mic sounds great and I want to keep it badly. But I feel lik a second rate citizen right now.....and only because of the way SF communicate, not necessarily because of what they have or have not done. 

If you stand by your product and are saying this one is good, then do the right thing, swap mine out and use mine as a re-certfied demo unit you can send to another retailer. 

Just make right by me.

I'll keep you all posted as things transpire.

To date, SF has had my mic since May 22.  And I've received five emails from them, here they are word for word.

5/23

Just received your ST350…
 
At first glance nothing appears to be out of the ordinary. I’ll get a dialog going with SoundDevices and see if we can somehow replicate the fault here. As this is not your ordinary repair I will be dealing with it personally, unfortunately I’ll be out of the country for the next two weeks, so please bear with me.
 
Thanks,
 
Pieter
 

6/18

 
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you…
 
We have been checking over your ST350 thoroughly and have not managed to find anything wrong. We have also been testing it with our 744T (both on batteries and mains) and it keeps on running/recording perfectly.
 
The only difference in our setup I can think of are the battery system/batteries you use, maybe the power is somehow glitching which is freezing the recorder.
 
Apologies for not being more conclusive… I presume the best thing to do is for us to send the ST350 back to you.
 
Thanks,
 
Pieter

6/19
I appreciate that you are getting frustrated but the majority of ST350 users use it in conjunction with a 744T and no one has ever reported this or any related issue. We are doing what we can to find out what is going wrong but so far have not managed to find anything untoward at all. I assure you that we will do everything we can to get you up and running.
 
I have been recording in one hour stints… I’ll try longer records today.
 
Our 744T runs Software Version 2.40, Sample Rate 48K – 24bit, recording to Poly Wav file, 1.8Gb split file size.
 
I am running the ST350 using your battery adaptor and the 744T on the internal battery.
 
I’ll keep you posted.
 
Thanks,
 
Pieter

6/24
We are still continuously testing your system in conjunction with the 744T we have here… I have tried absolutely everything and can not re-create the fault you describe.
 
I believe there is one of two things happening with your set-up, either a power or a heat issue:
 
1.   I have been running the ST350 with the power adapter that came back from you (as supplied by us) – I have also been monitoring the output of the power adapter for any signs of power glitches - but have not found anything.
 
2.   You mentioned that you keep both the ST350 and the 744T in your camera bag and that the combo gets rather hot. We have re-created this situation here and had the ST350 + 744T for two days straight in a non-ventilated bag in the sun and had no problems.
 
As you do not have this problem when using other microphones the heat problem seems most likely as the ST350 can get rather hot which will heat up the 744T in turn.  
 
This may not be what you want to hear but your ST350 is in perfect working condition…
 
I just spoke to Richard at Transamerica and he informed you will be using their demo ST350 later this week. I would be interested to find out if you can recreate the fault with the units in a well ventilated condition and or running mains power.
 
Let’s wait and see how you get on with the demo ST350 system before deciding how to proceed.
 
Thanks,
 
Pieter


6/30
Hi Chris,

The shipping cost to return your ST350 to the US is 90.00 GBP - this 
would by via Fed-Ex.

If you would like to proceed please forward your payment details (we 
can accept credit cards) and I will make the necessary arrangements.

[easy jim]

This really sucks.  Sorry to read about your troubles.

[boojum]

That kind of service and they will be a smaller company.  Howe long is the warranty?  It has to be at least a year.  These guys are jerking you around and driving away potential customers. I would never buy anything from a company who takes a position like this.  And the distributor/wholesaler should be going to bat for you, not the company.  It is a shame you bought the damned thing from them.

FWIW the Schoeps Double Mid Side (DMS) use of a pair of Mk4's and an Mk8 will give you just about the same results, but no height perception, I believe.  I am not sure if SF does.  Schoeps has a free software decoder for the rig, too.  Someone on the board has tried it.  I have but not gotten it to work.  I am not sure what I am doing wrong.  When I get a chance I will go back to it.

Anyway, good luck with those boneheads in England.  You might want to send them a link to this thread so they can see just how they are perceived on this board.  Post it to gearslutz.com, too.  ;o)

[F0CKER]

Wanted to follow up again on what seems to be an amicable resolution to my issue.

The owner of Soundfield has gotten involved.  He thoroughly explained the testing done on the unit and why they feel it is 100% in good order.  He also explained their shipping policy.  Given they couldn't identify an issue the normal process would be to put the return shipping back on the owner.  In this case, because I had no issues with the demo unit I used in Las VEgas he agreed to swap out the mic and preamp cpontroller box with the demo unit for me.  He's going to send my unit to the US with a normal shipment to the US distributor, therefore no shipping costs for me, they in turn will send me the demo replacements.

Granted I've only used the demo unit twice but it performed perfectly both times, whereas the other unit had the issues multiple times.  Hopefully when I get the replacement and use it a few times I can report back it's working as expected consistently.

This is what I was expecting so Soundfield has regained my trust.


Now I can change my avatar back.

 

[F0CKER]

For the record, here was Soundfields response from Ken Giles, the owner.

Hello Chris,
 
Our policy, like most other manufacturers on warranty repairs is that the customer pays to get the goods here and we pay the return shipping – the difference was that on this occasion we could find no fault with your ST350 system. Our tests were very thorough and involved us obtaining a Sound Devices 744 and running it in conjunction with your system on long term soak re-charging and replacing the batteries as and when required – no 744 ‘meter freeze’ was encountered and the system performed to specification. Your ST350 was then given a full calibration in our anechoic chamber. A multi-layer bubble wrap ‘thermal blanket’ was then wrapped around both the 744 and ST350 on the basis that if you were using them both in some kind of carry bag there may be a heat related problem which would cause the 744 meters to ‘freeze’ when it reached a certain temperature. Even though the units were almost too hot to touch they both still functioned correctly. After that the wiring of your 12 way microphone cable was checked over and then your B-Format output cable which has been modified to connect directly to the 744 – all was in order. The systems were then put back on soak together on the slim chance there may be some sort of intermittent fault and checked periodically. All in all many hours spent some of which involved two technical persons – an investment of many hundreds of dollars on my part.
 
My proposal is that we exchange your microphone and control unit for those that you borrowed from Transaudio – you were very happy with their performance. We will return your cables and packaging in the next SoundField/Drawmer Transaudio shipment – which ship from here regularly.
 
The above route will save you all shipping charges and leave you with an exchange system which would appear to cover the concerns you express in your email.

[F0CKER]

And my response back to SF.

Ken, Richard, and Brad - First let me thank all of you for helping to get us to this resolution!  This does make me happy!

Ken -  This was the response I was hoping for initially.  I fully understand your position on the unit being in 100% working order.  I was never able to replicate the issue in a controlled environment either.  It only happened in the field, as I'd mentioned.  The frustration for me was knowing it'd been going on since mid Feb, I went back to check the first failure date.  I recorded around 20 shows from Feb to May with 13 failures and 7 complete recordings.  In some cases with different decks and the same ST350.  The frustration I conveyed in my emails was the result of several months with yourselves and with Sound Devices and neither being able to replicate the issue.  From your perspective it probably seemed I was coming off a bit harsh very quickly.  I can assure you it was built up over time and is not typical for my demeanor.  Part of the frustration was due to a breakdown in communication with Pieter, mainly due to testing timing delays, brief email updates, and lack of thorough discussion on the matter at the beginning.  I can assure you I would'nt have been so adamant about a replacement had I not experienced those issues over time.  I'm not typically in the business of sending back perfectly good unit and paying $60 to put a stamp on a box and ask for a replacement unless I feel it is warranted.  This seems to be a unique situation, I'm glad we came to an amicable resolution.

The only untested variable remaining are the actual batteries themselves, and they came from Soundfield as well.  If the problem persists, I'll test each battery and see if there's a single culprit.  The resolution presented below, does make me very happy though, and want to thank you for going above and beyond to test the unit.  I am aware of the labor and cost involved in your testing and want to let you know that is not going unnoticed or appreciated.

Thanks to each of you for getting us to this point! 

[datbrad]

Way to go Chris!!!

When we talked about this when you were in Vegas, we thought right then that simply swapping units was a reasonable option for everyone involved. I am glad they finally came to the same conclusion.

So, hopefully very soon you will have a 100% working Soundfield rig and you will have rid yourself of any worries about pulling a complete show. At least not due to equipment failure, that is. 

Great persistance. I never doubted you would not back down on this and get them to step up.

[F0CKER]

It feels good, I just hope the issue doesn't pop up on this new one, then I;ll have no idea what to do.  Chalk all the previous up to user error?  I can't imagine that......even I'm not that bad.  I even recorded a few times sober with failures.

This solution makes sense though.  All they're doing is swapping out a demo for a demo, really.  Except I get one that I know worked consistently for me.

I'll be curious if the one they send back as the US retailer demo starts failing as well for someone else.
Thanks for reading my bitching folks, it made me feel good to vent here a little.


Brad - If I get it back in time, and Panic kicks my ass on Friday, I might head down to use it for Portsmouth.  I REALLY wanna hear this mic with a big band sound system.

[datbrad]

Portsmouth would be a perfect place to get your taping mojo back.

I may even run my rig that night just for kicks.

Hey, another bonus is you will be running 4 channel without 2 kwon bars, 5 boxes, and a squirrel's nest of cables to hook up. Calling Charles Fox............

[Cooker]

yay, focker will be making complete shitty tapes in no time!

[F0CKER]

yay, focker will be making complete shitty tapes in no time!

So now we'll finally have something in common!

[su6oxone]

A multi-layer bubble wrap ‘thermal blanket’ was then wrapped around both the 744 and ST350... Even though the units were almost too hot to touch they both still functioned correctly.

Yikes.  Good thing you're not getting those ones back.   

[yug du nord]

+T for your patience FOCKER...  you hung in there well and came out the victor...  congratulations!!!  I've never heard this mic, but I can only imagine how bad-ass it can sound!  I bet the nights sweats will now end...

[F0CKER]

I tell you , I just miss having my gear around.... just to tape something randomly on the weekend if I wanted to.  I'm now about the 3 month mark since I started this escapade and have about 2 more weeks to go.

[cfox]

Brad - If I get it back in time, and Panic kicks my ass on Friday, I might head down to use it for Portsmouth.  I REALLY wanna hear this mic with a big band sound system.

Yes, I wanna hear this mic on panics PA too...

[datbrad]

Brad - If I get it back in time, and Panic kicks my ass on Friday, I might head down to use it for Portsmouth.  I REALLY wanna hear this mic with a big band sound system.

Yes, I wanna hear this mic on panics PA too...

Focker did get a complete pull of DBT here in Richmond back in March off a big PA at the National, and his Soundfield was the best source to my ears of the several I heard. The ability to dial in patterns afterwards, particularly being able to go in between capsule settings, like halfway between hyper and card, for example, is a really big draw. How nice it must feel to be able to make a recording come out however you want in post by decoding the B-format into different patterns and configurations, and not having to worry about what capsules to use at the actual show. Just run the big can up in the air and hit record. Wow!

Shit, why don't you get a 788 and one of these ST350s and still run your tubes and make us some 8 channel madness!!!!

[Cooker]

hope to see you friday dude.

[F0CKER]

hope to see you friday dude.

I'll be there...preparty at Rock Lobster beforehand. 

See you Friday.

[F0CKER]

Focker did get a complete pull of DBT here in Richmond back in March off a big PA at the National, and his Soundfield was the best source to my ears of the several I heard. The ability to dial in patterns afterwards, particularly being able to go in between capsule settings, like halfway between hyper and card, for example, is a really big draw. How nice it must feel to be able to make a recording come out however you want in post by decoding the B-format into different patterns and configurations, and not having to worry about what capsules to use at the actual show. Just run the big can up in the air and hit record. Wow!

The only hangup is it's a dedicated XY config....which takes a little getting used considering I ran NOS almost exclusively for years.  But I've learned to love the sound...very natural to my ears.

[J.T.L]

Brad - If I get it back in time, and Panic kicks my ass on Friday, I might head down to use it for Portsmouth.  I REALLY wanna hear this mic with a big band sound system.

Yes, I wanna hear this mic on panics PA too...

x2!

[F0CKER]

I could probably be down with Portsmouth.  It should be here in 10 days......I hope.

[datbrad]

Ann Marie Calhoun(sp?) is supposed to sit in the entire show in Portsmouth. Hot Damn!!

[Gutbucket]

Been lurkin', good you got that nightmare resolved. What a PITA!

Focker did get a complete pull of DBT here in Richmond back in March off a big PA at the National, and his Soundfield was the best source to my ears of the several I heard. The ability to dial in patterns afterwards, particularly being able to go in between capsule settings, like halfway between hyper and card, for example, is a really big draw. How nice it must feel to be able to make a recording come out however you want in post by decoding the B-format into different patterns and configurations, and not having to worry about what capsules to use at the actual show. Just run the big can up in the air and hit record. Wow!

The only hangup is it's a dedicated XY config....which takes a little getting used considering I ran NOS almost exclusively for years.  But I've learned to love the sound...very natural to my ears.

I take it by dedicated XY you mean coincident patterns only and no cap spacing configs?

I'm guessing you tweak the virtual patterns to taste from the b-format master using either the outboard Soundfield box or software to dial in a stereo output to a two track file back at home?  That's gotta be cool, I'd so love to play with that.

You gotta be dying to hear some of your b-format recordings played back on a true ambisonic playback system.  I sure am.  Don't tell me you've got an ambisonic decoder and speaker setup going in your playback room! 

[boojum]

F0CKER -

Happy to see that SF came through for you.  It is a good thing you didn't fire bomb their asses.  LOL  SF might just want to review their customer support procedures so this does not happen again.  It got a lot of play here.  And I doubt that there will be lots of folks looking for this kind of hardware, many will remember the story and share it with others.  I hope that they add that the problem was eventually corrected to your satisfaction. 

Cheers

[F0CKER]

I take it by dedicated XY you mean coincident patterns only and no cap spacing configs?

I'm guessing you tweak the virtual patterns to taste from the b-format master using either the outboard Soundfield box or software to dial in a stereo output to a two track file back at home?  That's gotta be cool, I'd so love to play with that.

You gotta be dying to hear some of your b-format recordings played back on a true ambisonic playback system.  I sure am.  Don't tell me you've got an ambisonic decoder and speaker setup going in your playback room! 

Correct on the XY.

I use SF's proprietary software in as a plugin for Nuendo.  It's fun to play with, defintiely but also a pain as I have a hard time settling on one pattern vs another.  Sometimes it's hard to choose.  but I keep all the original b format recordings just in case I want to go back.

I don't have a 5.1 setup right now, but it's in the works eventually.  It would be silly to not try it with this setup.

[F0CKER]

F0CKER -

Happy to see that SF came through for you.  It is a good thing you didn't fire bomb their asses.  LOL  SF might just want to review their customer support procedures so this does not happen again.  It got a lot of play here.  And I doubt that there will be lots of folks looking for this kind of hardware, many will remember the story and share it with others.  I hope that they add that the problem was eventually corrected to your satisfaction. 

Cheers

Cheers!  Im still not out of the woods, I mean there is the off chance this demo unit fails and it's something we haven't identified.  But given I was 2 for 2 two weekends ago, I feel pretty good.

Thanks for all the feedback everyone!

I'll keep updating this as more unfolds.

[yug du nord]

Now I can change my avatar back.
 

I don't know...  rumor has it...  that once you go Wiggum, you never go back!!!   

[Gutbucket]

I use SF's proprietary software in as a plugin for Nuendo.  It's fun to play with, defintiely but also a pain as I have a hard time settling on one pattern vs another.  Sometimes it's hard to choose. 

I hear that. I have a hard enough time just deciding if a little eq'ing is an appropriate improvement and how much to use.

I don't have a 5.1 setup right now, but it's in the works eventually.  It would be silly to not try it with this setup.

I imagine the SF plugin allows for 5.1 output similar to doing stereo output - select the patterns, maybe rolloff and a delay option for the rears.  Probably sounds amazing.. but as you say for stereo, that's even more tweakage to decide on.  What I was referring to is true ambisonic playback where you playback the straight b-format material and recreate the soundfield at the center of the room in all 3 dimensions without having to make any playback or mic pattern decisions which requires realtime ambisonic decoding that corresponds to a geometric arrangement of 4, 6, 8, or 10+ speakers.

It's sort of the playback equivalent of a stereo mic vs the Sound Field b-format mic on the recording side, and the original reason the soundfield mic technology was developed.  All designed from Michael Gerzon's ambisonic mathematics theory -vs- the movie theater based 'just put some speakers in the back for the effects and one in the center for dialog' non-scientific backed origin of the 5.1 standard.  I'd love to hear it someday, but can't imagine ever finding the opportunity.  Fascinating stuff though.

[F0CKER]

ahhh gotcha....no I haven't even entertained going down that road yet.   I still need to getr my 2 channel playback where I want it first.

[Gutbucket]

Yeah me too.  Same priorities though.. capture it now and you can always listen better later.

[F0CKER]

Well, my gear is scheduled to arrive tomorrow....I shipped it to them in May.  I've very excited right now.  It's like my gear went on summer break and never wrote.


Perfect timing too.  Next week I've got Wilco, 2 Lucero shows, and Josh Clark / Turbine in NYC.  Hopefully I go 5 for 5 and will let y'all know for sure.  Because I know you're all on the edge of your seats.

[datbrad]

Maybe you should go on the wagon for that run, just in case. 

[todd e]

Well, my gear is scheduled to arrive tomorrow....I shipped it to them in May.  I've very excited right now.  It's like my gear went on summer break and never wrote.


Perfect timing too.  Next week I've got Wilco, 2 Lucero shows, and Josh Clark / Turbine in NYC.  Hopefully I go 5 for 5 and will let y'all know for sure.  Because I know you're all on the edge of your seats.

5 for 5, good LUCK!  focker on the wagon, yeah right.  cheers

just caught up on this thread.  weird SD acted that way.  we 'demo'ed' a st250 for about 2months and they never cared or even called.  when they did call, it was simply to ask us to send the unit to NASA. 

[F0CKER]

Maybe you should go on the wagon for that run, just in case. 

Only if it's a wagon full of miller lite.  Otherwise I don't like wagons.

[F0CKER]

we 'demo'ed' a st250 for about 2months and they never cared or even called.  when they did call, it was simply to ask us to send the unit to NASA. 

I wonder how fast they would've replaced it for NASA. 

mmm yeah we need to tape something on Mars.  We need an ambisonic, we'll send the space shuttle right over to pick it up.

[todd e]

we 'demo'ed' a st250 for about 2months and they never cared or even called.  when they did call, it was simply to ask us to send the unit to NASA. 

I wonder how fast they would've replaced it for NASA. 

mmm yeah we need to tape something on Mars.  We need an ambisonic, we'll send the space shuttle right over to pick it up.

they actually said they would be doing something underwater, and had a way to 'waterproof' it.  anyways, sorry to hear of your troubles.

i cant wait to read more about the bformat and the 744T component, imagine you can get all the channels and mix as you want later?

[F0CKER]

i cant wait to read more about the bformat and the 744T component, imagine you can get all the channels and mix as you want later?

I love the fact that I can just hit record and worry about everything else later.  Lord knows I have my handsfull setting up one rig and trynig to get served at the bar before the show starts.  Thinking about caps, and patterns....that takes away from Miller Time.