Topic: What exactly is Stage Lip?

[Dede2002]

Hi,

Yes, I know what "stage" means. I also know what "lip" means. But when you guys say "stage lip" where exactly are the mics? Actually on the stage? Pretty close to the stage? How close?
Thanks in advance 

[easy jim]

The "stage lip" generally refers to the area of the stage next to the main floor, usually - but not always - in between the edge of the stage facing the crowd and the line of monitors/mic stands on stage for the musicians.

[Dede2002]

The "stage lip" generally refers to the area of the stage next to the main floor, usually - but not always - in between the edge of the stage facing the crowd and the line of monitors/mic stands on stage for the musicians.

Great. +T for the fast response.
Thanks 

[SmokinJoe]

Sometimes a stage floor overhangs the base of the stage creating a lip.  In the classic sense, it's clamping to this lip. Other times it means your stand is right up against the edge of the stage as close as possible, or even on the stage a little bit.  It all depends on what the stage is like... but the intent is this... you are micing the band directly, as opposed to micing the PA.

Pros:
- You probably have better mics than the band.  Get the sound directly.
- The FOH guy probably makes a pretty mono mix.  You have the opportunity to capture it with real stereo width
- Less crowd chatter.

Cons:
- People like to dance over my mics with sloshing glasses of beer.  This makes me a nervous wreck.
- If there are vocals, they will likely be low in the mix.  In general, stage lip for instrumentals only.

[Dede2002]

Sometimes a stage floor overhangs the base of the stage creating a lip.  In the classic sense, it's clamping to this lip. Other times it means your stand is right up against the edge of the stage as close as possible, or even on the stage a little bit.  It all depends on what the stage is like... but the intent is this... you are micing the band directly, as opposed to micing the PA.

Pros:
- You probably have better mics than the band.  Get the sound directly.
- The FOH guy probably makes a pretty mono mix.  You have the opportunity to capture it with real stereo width
- Less crowd chatter.

Cons:
- People like to dance over my mics with sloshing glasses of beer.  This makes me a nervous wreck.
- If there are vocals, they will likely be low in the mix.  In general, stage lip for instrumentals only.

`Thanks Smokin Joe. My guess was - almost - right.

[hummat]

- If there are vocals, they will likely be low in the mix.  In general, stage lip for instrumentals only.

Or matrix with that pretty mono mix 

-jay

[heyitsmejess]

ive had great luck running omnis "healey method" at the stage lip.

recently started experamenting with running a single point stereo mic between the omnis and mixing them together.

will have a sample shortly if any interest.

[stantheman1976]

ive had great luck running omnis "healey method" at the stage lip.

recently started experamenting with running a single point stereo mic between the omnis and mixing them together.

will have a sample shortly if any interest.

Always interested in experiments.  Please do post what you like.

[heyitsmejess]

will do!

uploading to the archive now....

[heyitsmejess]

http://www.archive.org/details/rumpkemb2008-06-20

its still in the process of deriving, but its up!

[Brian Skalinder]

I've always thought of stage lip as on the floor, but right at the edge of the stage - at the lip of the stage.  If I'm on the stage, between the monitors and the edge of the stage or anywhere else, I consider it, well..."on stage".

[run_run_run]

Cool thanks for sharing. Couple quick questions what is a jbr20 and have you ever tried a nak attack on the stage lip?

[heyitsmejess]

jbr20 is an archos jukebox recorder 20...with rockbox you can record lossless.  its kinda crappy, but does the job.

edit:  ok...crappy is kinda harsh, but its not a user friendly as some of the other mp3 player-style recorders (jb3, h120, etc)

never ran the naks stage lip/on stage because the clamp i use onstage wouldnt support it.  i usually have my stand further back in the room.  shouldnt/wouldnt be hard, tho (i dont think...a short stand like a camera stand or something would prob work)

[rastasean]

It all depends on what the stage is like... but the intent is this... you are micing the band directly, as opposed to micing the PA.

Pros:
- You probably have better mics than the band.  Get the sound directly.

These two statements make me ask this question.

If you and I spend a couple grand on mics and cables buying the best set of mics and the best set of cables for $2500 for example and take this to a show, your choice, the guitar player, bass player, drummer are using their equipment almost all the time but is the singer always using something very good or is it just an okay mic like the standard Shure 57?

Why during tours/shows do bands rely on crappy mics but in the studio use better ones? Is it just a cost factor? Why do we spend so much on mics and cables when the bands/artists mics and cables are probably guitar center quality?

Not knocking anyone at all. I hear the difference I just want to know why the artists/bands use not-so-good mics.

[John R]

a vocalist will most likely be using a 58.  57 is more directional for instruments.

we buy better than them because we are junkies.  most bands will put their money into instruments and FX over mics, and there goes the budget.  a 58 is really quite adequate and extremely bombproof.  our mics are a bit more expensive, and more delicate, than a gear provider wants to invest in, when they have cases that hold 18 or more.  Some bands do travel with nice mics because they know how well they'll perform, but it is rare, and food and fuel must be purchased.

my .02

[morst]

Why during tours/shows do bands rely on crappy mics but in the studio use better ones?

Live mics need to have a pickup pattern which can reject off-axis sound from the stage monitors and other instruments. In the studio, performers usually wear headphones, and more often than not, the amps and vocalist are physically isolated from loud sounds like the drums. Omni's are great mics, but are virtually useless on a live stage with other loud sounds and a PA system.

There are some very high-quality mics for stage use, and many bands who use in-ear monitors find that their sound improves dramatically when they switch to in-ears and better mics. There is a learning curve for the crew, to be sure, but the results can be amazing. Look at how the Grateful Dead's sound changed in the early 1990's once they went to in-ear monitors around 1992.

[Gutbucket]

Why during tours/shows do bands rely on crappy mics but in the studio use better ones?

I'll throw in my spare change- Their mics are usually only a few feet or less away from whatever they are mic'ing.  We are recording from much farther away (even when at the stage lip) and trying to 'get it all' with a single pair.  Consider how good the instruments can sound up there at the stage lip because your mics are closer and also because you are getting the direct sound of the instruments and bypassing some of the FOH system altogether.   Nothing sounds as good as no house system and an acoustic band to my ears.

[Dede2002]

Why during tours/shows do bands rely on crappy mics but in the studio use better ones?

I'll throw in my spare change- Their mics are usually only a few feet or less away from whatever they are mic'ing.  We are recording from much farther away (even when at the stage lip) and trying to 'get it all' with a single pair.  Consider how good the instruments can sound up there at the stage lip because your mics are closer and also because you are getting the direct sound of the instruments and bypassing some of the FOH system altogether.   Nothing sounds as good as no house system and an acoustic band to my ears.

Q4T.

[cybergaloot]

Not knocking anyone at all. I hear the difference I just want to know why the artists/bands use not-so-good mics.

I'd toss in the fact that more than likely the mics belong to the sound company or the venue. In that case, since the mics don't belong to the band they tend to get treated worse than a rental car. The venue will opt for cheap and durable with quality being a distant third factor. Some bands do carry some mics but most don't. It they do its usually for the vocalist or special applications. I've seen several vocalist provide their own wireless mics and I saw a Hammond B3 player recently that had his own mics built into his Leslie cabinet for example. Most harp players have their own mic.

[dean]

I've always thought of stage lip as on the floor, but right at the edge of the stage - at the lip of the stage.  If I'm on the stage, between the monitors and the edge of the stage or anywhere else, I consider it, well..."on stage".

FWIW, this is how I document my on stage &/or stage lip recordings.

Nothing sounds as good as no house system and an acoustic band to my ears.

QFT.  75% of what I record, too!!   

[Dede2002]

I've always thought of stage lip as on the floor, but right at the edge of the stage - at the lip of the stage.  If I'm on the stage, between the monitors and the edge of the stage or anywhere else, I consider it, well..."on stage".

That was also my impression.
Anyway, I think I have the answer for my original question: roughly, what is called "stage lip" is a recording technique where the mics are pretty close to the stage (almost or sometimes on the stage) and, most important, captures the band ( not the PA, if any) at a very, very close range, therefore enchancing the stereo image.
Thanks for all the great inputs.

[indietaperwloo]

Stage lip miking...isn't that a technique used in theatre?  I was actually sound designer for a production at a local theatre and we had pair of boundary cardioids on stage to pick up the actors voices better without actually having to wire them all up with lavs.  I also teched a production where we had to do that and it was a pain in the ass because we only had 8 lav mics and bodypacks to share among a company of around 40 actors so the stage managers had to be really creative in passing off the mics and wiring up the soloists (it was a musical).  I really like the idea they had in Rent with giving the principal actors headset mics...it looked cool and less worry about an omni lav feeding back all the time.
This is basically my experience with stage lip miking.

[Dede2002]

Stage lip miking...isn't that a technique used in theatre?  I was actually sound designer for a production at a local theatre and we had pair of boundary cardioids on stage to pick up the actors voices better without actually having to wire them all up with lavs.  I also teched a production where we had to do that and it was a pain in the ass because we only had 8 lav mics and bodypacks to share among a company of around 40 actors so the stage managers had to be really creative in passing off the mics and wiring up the soloists (it was a musical).  I really like the idea they had in Rent with giving the principal actors headset mics...it looked cool and less worry about an omni lav feeding back all the time.
This is basically my experience with stage lip miking.

Thanks for sharing your experience. Appreciated.

[Unitmonster]

At the risk of being redundant with what's already been said. I've had good and bad experiences with stage-lip.  I use it almost exclusively wiht instrumental bands (mostly jazz), but even at that, I've found that you're really at the mercy of how the mix is coming out on stage.   The PA plays a bit of a buffering role if you will, compensating for quieter instruments, so when you move beyond the throw of the PA, you lose that buffer.

Case in point. Taped a jazz quartet the other week (Bari-sax, drums, elec. bass, elec. guitar).  The horn player, Ken Vandermark, tends to play LOUD, but it happens that the rest of the band played even louder.  During the quieter parts the mix is fantastic. Great stereo imaging, nice "up-close" feel, really everything you want from a recording. As soon as they got to the noisy improv sections though, you lose the horns in the din of the amplified instruments and the drums.  I re-balanced the recording to compensate, but it wasn't enough, especially with omni mics.  You can check out a sample of the quieter stuff right here if you like:

http://www.dimeadozen.org/attachments/203005/2607926/powerhouse2008-06-27t5.mp3

[Simp-Dawg]

there was a discussion a while back that this thread reminded me of...there was some show out where one of the tapers, who was up front but not directly at the stage, listed his recording as "stage-lip" because he was the closest to the stage of any tapers there and argued that he only could not get to the stage lip or on stage because of a barricade or some nonsense...i think toddr was involved in this exchange somehow.  basically it degenerated into someone asking this guy if he was outside the doors taping a show that no other tapers were at, if he could say he recorded stage lip because that was the closest anyone taping could have gotten to the stage

[Gutbucket]

If a tree falls on stage with no one there to tape it..