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Author Topic: Bits v. kHz  (Read 8000 times)

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Offline javertim

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Bits v. kHz
« on: August 24, 2008, 09:49:23 PM »
So, I have recently purchased an Edirol R-09HR and am anxiously awaiting its arrival.  I am trying to decide which format to record in, and having only recorded with MD and Hi-MD in the past, the whole 24 Bit/96 kHz thing confuses me.  What should I be more concerned with: bits or kHz?  What would sound better: 16 bits/96 kHz or 24 bits/44.1 kHz? ... Also, would it be pointless to make recordings in 24 bits and then burn the files to audio CD (as I believe "CD quality sound" is only 16 bit)? ... I would very much appreciate if someone would explain this to me in practical terms. :)
« Last Edit: August 24, 2008, 09:51:18 PM by javertim »

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Bits v. kHz
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2008, 09:56:14 PM »
bits are WAY MORE IMPORTANT!!! I have been recording in 24/44.1k and LOVE IT!
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Offline stantheman1976

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Re: Bits v. kHz
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2008, 09:59:10 PM »
Bits will mean more when editing your recordings.  The higher the bit depth the better your recording will fare when altering it during post.  When amplifying a recording you will most definitely notice a difference between 16 and 24 bit.  With 24 you can amplify much more before noise becomes noticeable.

Offline javertim

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Re: Bits v. kHz
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2008, 10:42:32 PM »
What happens if I record in 24-bit, then master, and then burn the file to an audio CD?  Will I loose something of the original 24-bit recording since CDs themselves are only 16-bit?  And what difference do kHz make in recordings?

Offline rhinowing

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Re: Bits v. kHz
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2008, 10:45:25 PM »
What happens if I record in 24-bit, then master, and then burn the file to an audio CD?  Will I loose something of the original 24-bit recording since CDs themselves are only 16-bit?  And what difference do kHz make in recordings?
24-bit mastered to a CD will sound better than 16-bit.
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Offline page

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Re: Bits v. kHz
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2008, 11:23:09 PM »
What happens if I record in 24-bit, then master, and then burn the file to an audio CD?  Will I loose something of the original 24-bit recording since CDs themselves are only 16-bit?  And what difference do kHz make in recordings?

khz samples translate to frequencies recorded.

44.1khz tops out around 20,000, while 48k tops out around 23,000. Cymbals are found around the 14,000-18,000 range if I remember correctly.
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Offline sunjan

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Re: Bits v. kHz
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2008, 03:32:41 AM »
What happens if I record in 24-bit, then master, and then burn the file to an audio CD?  Will I loose something of the original 24-bit recording since CDs themselves are only 16-bit?  And what difference do kHz make in recordings?

khz samples translate to frequencies recorded.

44.1khz tops out around 20,000, while 48k tops out around 23,000. Cymbals are found around the 14,000-18,000 range if I remember correctly.

An important part of this discussion is also the playback equipment you use. If you record high frequencies, make an effort to use good playback speakers/headphones etc to enjoy the higher quality.
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Offline DSatz

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Re: Bits v. kHz
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2008, 08:33:31 AM »
javertim, if your "ultimate delivery medium" is a CD, then one thing is for certain: If you make your live recording at a sampling rate higher than 44.1 kHz, you will eventually need to convert it down. The processes available for this conversion range somewhat in quality, and can never improve the sound quality of recordings except by some kind of wacky accident; at best they can be qualitatively neutral while adding a little bit of noise.

Valid generalizations about which approach is best are therefore hard to make. However, I've noticed that this doesn't stop people from making broad statements; it doesn't even seem to slow them down. I view such advice with skepticism. It may be valid for the particular equipment or software that a given person is using, or it may just be what they'd like to believe they're hearing (or can hear), or it may be some of each. But if someone says "It sounds better if you start at 96 kHz" they can't possibly be speaking for all 96 kHz equipment, or all ways of converting 96 kHz recordings down to 44.1; that's simply not possible. And yet there is so much of that kind of careless talk. People only discredit themselves by stating that type of opinion.

There's one definite practical and (potentially) audible advantage to 24-bit live recording even when your eventual "delivery format" will be 16-bit. The advantage is that, with suitable equipment used correctly, you can set your recording levels conservatively. You can avoid accidents if an unexpectedly loud sound occurs, without giving up the full dynamic range that 16-bit recording offers.

What I mean is, if I'm recording live at 16/44.1 and I'm going to deliver a CD to the client, then I really will be trying to get the peak recorded levels to land somewhere between -1  dBFS and maybe -3 or -4 dBFS. If they're lower, people can't help imagining that they might have guessed more accurately themselves, while if they're higher, then there's distortion (overload). And that makes for a somewhat tense situation because, what if I'm wrong? I'll have to change the levels during the recording, keep careful notes, and compensate afterwards during the transfer to the final product. That's a fair amount of extra hassle and the dynamic range of the product won't be ideal.

With 24-bit live recording and 16-bit delivery, though, I can allow (say) 7 or 8 dB headroom. If the performers want to surprise me, they can go right ahead. In the end, either way I'll reset the gain and dither down to 16-bit, and come out smelling like a rose every time. I like that.

--best regards
« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 10:33:04 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline bhakti

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Re: Bits v. kHz
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2008, 09:25:42 AM »
DSatz, i love you... i have never had a better explanation of all this dithering bizness...

so if you were using an Edirol R-09 for example, would you always record [in generally unideal situations where levels can't be checked constantly] in 24/44.1 or just use 16? love to hear what you have to say... i think you may have already said it, but i'm not entirely sure...

thanks again for the very useful explanation.... always happy when i see one of your posts because i know i will learn something....

+T brother...

Offline sygdwm

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Re: Bits v. kHz
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2008, 09:44:19 AM »
24/44.1 > run conservatively > raise gain in post > dither to 16 bit

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Offline javertim

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Re: Bits v. kHz
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2008, 10:59:22 AM »
Wow. Thank you everyone for your input! I think I'll go ahead and record in 24/44.1 so that I do allow myself the headroom that you are talking about, DSatz. ... As far as what I use to listen to my music, I generally use either my Sennheiser HD-280-Pros or my Shure se420s, although I've been thinking about upgrading the former pair to an open pair (maybe the Sennheiser HD600s).

Offline Javier Cinakowski

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Re: Bits v. kHz
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2008, 11:33:44 AM »
Quote
I generally use either my Sennheiser HD-280-Pros or my Shure se420s, although I've been thinking about upgrading the former pair to an open pair (maybe the Sennheiser HD600s).

Try the DT880 by Beyerdynamic.  They are open air and more acurate than the Senns...  Though many folks prefer the coloration of the Senns...
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Offline evilchris

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Re: Bits v. kHz
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2008, 11:42:05 AM »
24/44.1 > run conservatively > raise gain in post > dither to 16 bit

ditto.
nothing > nada > R-09

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Re: Bits v. kHz
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2008, 04:47:32 PM »
I mostly record at 24/44.1, for various reasons:

- my ultimate target is a CD
- I don't have state-of-the art PC, so the extra cpu overhead of downsampling hurts. Much easier for me to stick to one samplerate
- I currently run a MT2496, which doesn't seamlessly autosplit. 24/96 gives a file break approx every hour, unacceptable to me (24/44.1 is usually ok)

My previous recorder (JB3) only did 16 bit. The difference going to 24 bit was like night and day.

best regards,
stephen

Offline yug du nord

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Re: Bits v. kHz
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2008, 06:22:50 PM »
My belief (although it may be wrong) has been that if your goal is to end up with a CD, that 16/44.1 is best.  Nearly everyone claims that 24/?? is better...  and that might be true...  if it's not going onto a CD.  I've read somewhere at some point that there is no dithering scheme that is as accurate as just recording in 16bit.  I understand about the headroom that 24bit gives you, and the advantages of 24bit or higher for post work, but I've always thought that a "true" 16/44.1 recording is technically superior to a 24/?? recording that's dithered down.  Like I said...  I might be completely wrong on this issue...  but DSatz might have given part of my belief some creditability.  Maybe...  DSatz... does this make any sense, or am I just talking out of my rear-end?  I've never recorded in 24bit....  so I'm not the best person to make these claims.
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