Author Topic: Noob setup - what's my best bang-for-buck upgrade? (Read 6382 times)

Sarah · « **on:** September 19, 2009, 02:15:05 PM »

I'm stealth taping, mainly at loud rock clubs with rock/folk/alt.country kind of stuff. Occasionally I'll do a quieter seated venue too. My current taping gear consists of an iRiver H140 (rockboxed of course), Sound Professionals cardioid mics (SP-CMC-19) and a mini battery box which I don't always use since I haven't noticed a lot of difference with it. I can't remember where I got it and there's no label on it so I can't say what kind it is... probably from Sound Professionals as well.

I generally come up with pretty clean recordings, but they have a bit of that bottom-of-the-well / distant / tinny thing going on. (Not terrible, but enough to want improvement.) What's the best place to spend money for a good SQ improvement? I'm thinking a new mic but I'm not sure where the sweet spot is for pricing and where you hit diminishing returns. I'm also not sure what kind of mic would work best with the H140, or if I'm better off with omnidirectional or cardioid. I tend to like to stand as close to the stage as possible since my priorities are usually for show enjoyment over show taping (and also the not-very-tall thing, I can't see over anyone if I'm further back). I've also wondered if I'd be better off with a single mic since I don't do a left/right stereo placement anyway.

If you think that tinny sound is more from methodology / placement I'd love to hear that too. I think I often set the gain too low, I don't tape often enough to really nail it down for each venue I go to so I am usually conservative to avoid clipping.

I'd love to keep any expenditures under $150 but could go higher if it would make a real improvement.

yltfan · « **Reply #1 on:** September 19, 2009, 03:27:02 PM »

Would these work?
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,126296.0.html

I like my AT853s with the Church Audio 9100 preamp. Lots of folks around here will recommend Church Audio mics.

Lastly, it's best to keep your stealthy techniques stealth.

Sarah · « **Reply #2 on:** September 19, 2009, 04:01:27 PM »

Edit: you edited while I was replying....

Do you have a link to the AT853s? I googled but I'm not sure I'm finding the right thing...

yltfan · « **Reply #3 on:** September 19, 2009, 04:21:27 PM »

They are Audio Technica 853, pretty popular, Sound Pro sells them along with lots of accessories. But you should be able to find some used ones easily. Looks like there are some still for sale here:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,124112.0.html

But I have not used the SP-CMC-19, I would look for advice from someone more familiar with those in terms of what is a good upgrade.

Sarah · « **Reply #4 on:** September 20, 2009, 07:00:57 PM »

In lieu of other advice I went ahead and ordered AT853... I found a sound sample and they do sound like they would be a good improvement for me. Thanks for your help.

Ziggz · « **Reply #5 on:** September 20, 2009, 08:52:10 PM »

CMC-19s were the first mics I owned, and yes, I know what you mean about the "tinny" sound. The 853's will be a huge upgrade

Belexes · « **Reply #6 on:** September 20, 2009, 09:18:59 PM »

I love my 853's and have all 4 capsules. Prior I was a SP-CMC-8 user (AT943) and wasn't completely satisfied. If you end up taping a lot of quiet music, consider the CA-9100 pre.

Ziggz · « **Reply #7 on:** September 20, 2009, 11:27:55 PM »

Which 943 caps didn't you like? I'm slightly disappointed with my cards, they seem a little thin on the bottom end. Omnis have given good results. Not sure about the hypers as I haven't really done much with them, plus I had the battery box settings all wrong with the new switches so I'm not sure what they're capable of.

su6oxone · « **Reply #8 on:** September 20, 2009, 11:34:36 PM »

Quote from: Sarah on September 20, 2009, 07:00:57 PM

In lieu of other advice I went ahead and ordered AT853... I found a sound sample and they do sound like they would be a good improvement for me. Thanks for your help.

I would have recommended the Church Audio CA-11 cardioid mics, since they are similar in quality to the AT853 but more in line with your stated budget, but I think you'll like the AT853 as well. I used them for awhile and got some good recordings with them.

yltfan · « **Reply #9 on:** September 21, 2009, 12:35:19 AM »

Let me know what you think. Did you buy a new pair? You got everything you need to run them?

Sarah · « **Reply #10 on:** September 21, 2009, 12:45:35 AM »

I bought new... though I decided to go for a mono mic because it's half the price and the stealth method I've been using doesn't let me separate the mics anyway. I'm going to try recording a show with it and see what I think, I've got 30 days to exchange/refund... it's also small enough to hide for anything short of a body cavity search

I have the recorder and battery box already, so I think I have everything I need... unless the AT853s have some other requirements I don't know about (hope not).

su6oxone · « **Reply #11 on:** September 21, 2009, 10:59:08 AM »

Quote from: Sarah on September 21, 2009, 12:45:35 AM

I bought new... though I decided to go for a mono mic because it's half the price and the stealth method I've been using doesn't let me separate the mics anyway. I'm going to try recording a show with it and see what I think, I've got 30 days to exchange/refund... it's also small enough to hide for anything short of a body cavity search

I have the recorder and battery box already, so I think I have everything I need... unless the AT853s have some other requirements I don't know about (hope not).

You should be all set. But I really think that taping with only one mic is a terrible idea... even taping with two mics with little separation gives you some stereo image but a one mic mono recording isn't worth listening to IMHO. You should consider the Church CA-11 mics, they probably cost the same for a pair as one AT853 mic does. Drop Chris Church an email (you can't PM until you hit 50 posts) and see what he can do for you. You can fit the CA-11 in a pair of croakies, which might be a reasonable idea given that you don't want to wear a hat and you probably have hair to cover the croakies.

Sarah · « **Reply #12 on:** September 21, 2009, 03:01:58 PM »

Well, as I said - I will see how it sounds, and I can exchange it for something better if I hate it. Taking baby steps till I get something I'm happy with for minimum expenditure. Mostly I am recording these for myself (though I do share if anyone wants them) and it's just local bands in crummy little clubs... I'm not expecting pro quality audio.

I think I might look even more peculiar with those fat croakies on my glasses than I would in a hat...

Don't have the right sort of hairstyle to cover them.

Belexes · « **Reply #13 on:** September 21, 2009, 03:16:09 PM »

Quote from: Ziggz on September 20, 2009, 11:27:55 PM

Which 943 caps didn't you like? I'm slightly disappointed with my cards, they seem a little thin on the bottom end.

The cards. My recordings needed a lot of EQ in post.

fmaderjr · « **Reply #14 on:** September 21, 2009, 06:56:16 PM »

Quote from: su6oxone on September 21, 2009, 10:59:08 AM

You should be all set. But I really think that taping with only one mic is a terrible idea... even taping with two mics with little separation gives you some stereo image but a one mic mono recording isn't worth listening to IMHO. You should consider the Church CA-11 mics, they probably cost the same for a pair as one AT853 mic does.

I agree 100%. With an H140, battery box, and CA-11's you can make great sounding recordings of loud shows. For acoustic stuff an ST-9100 pre would be a great addition (it's best not to turn the H140's gain above 24 because then you get digital gain and more added noise).

If you get the CA-11's I would pay the additional $40 or so and get both card & omni caps (unless you go the croakie route). You'll probably use the cards most often but its great to have omni's when closeup (as you like to be) at a great sounding venue in cases where there is minimal crowd chatter going on behind you (which cards would be better at reducing). Having CA-11's with both sets of caps gives you a lot of flexibility for a bargain price.

sunjan · « **Reply #15 on:** September 22, 2009, 04:11:12 AM »

Quote from: Sarah on September 21, 2009, 12:45:35 AM

I have the recorder and battery box already, so I think I have everything I need... unless the AT853s have some other requirements I don't know about (hope not).

As fmaderjr said, take note of how much gain you'll have to add with the iRiver. My experience is that you'll benefit from an external pre, the signal from the mic won't be hot enough with just a bbox.
And when you get the money, do get a stereo pair.

Even if you don't separate the mics, running them X/Y at single point makes a huge difference!

Sarah · « **Reply #16 on:** September 22, 2009, 08:52:49 AM »

Doesn't the iRiver already have an internal pre-amp? I thought that lessened the need for external boosting somewhat. I remember back when I got it from Amazon in 2004, the pre-amp was DOA and I had to get the unit replaced. It made a big difference in loudness.

The mic is supposed to be here tomorrow so maybe I can find a test show to go to this week and see how it sounds.

fmaderjr · « **Reply #17 on:** September 22, 2009, 03:18:15 PM »

Quote from: Sarah on September 22, 2009, 08:52:49 AM

Doesn't the iRiver already have an internal pre-amp?

It has one, and it is good enough if you don't need to set it above 24 dB to get adequate levels. Above that it can add audible noise and you would greatly benefit from an external preamp like the ST-9100 for recording stuff that isn't too loud.

Sarah · « **Reply #18 on:** September 27, 2009, 08:04:31 PM »

Sooooo... I took the new mic out for a spin today. I am having trouble figuring out what happened - it doesn't look anywhere near clipping, but the sound is very distorted, mainly the bass... is there a reason why that would happen? It sounded OK in the venue. Was I too close to a speaker stack maybe? I was trying to get closer to the middle but ended up shunted off towards the side where the stack was. Audience noise, people talking between songs etc. sounds un-distorted... and a saxophone without amplification for a few seconds sounded clear and did not distort.

Advice appreciated... I'm perplexed.

The good news is that without distortion I would be very happy with the sound of this mic, even with it being mono... it's a nice full natural sound.

fmaderjr · « **Reply #19 on:** September 28, 2009, 04:48:10 AM »

I assume you wound up getting one AT853? Great mic but the mic itself can distort (unless you get the low sensitivity option) when taping in high sound pressure situations. Taping too near the speaker could cause that. Also if sound pressure was not extremely high, maybe the simple addition of a battery box would have handled that (most mics can tape record around 15 dB higher sound pressure levels with a battery box).

You really need to get a battery box (or preamp) and 2 mics whatever else you do. The battery box or pre will let you record a wider dynamic range and higher sound pressure levels without clipping. Very few recorders provided adequate power for most mics. The Church-Audio box costs only $30 is is barely larger than a 9 volt battery. Using 2 mics instead of one will add room ambiance and stereo crowd noise even if you are recording next to a mono speaker, which will make the recording sound much more natural and pleasing.

With a stereo pair of AT853's with the low sensitivity mod (or CA-11's or CA-14's), a battery box, and an H140 you should be able to make great sounding recordings of anything loud. For acoustic, you'd do even better substituting a preamp for the battery box. I love the Church Audio ST-9100 pre, as do many here.

sunjan · « **Reply #20 on:** September 28, 2009, 08:19:48 AM »

Quote from: Sarah on September 27, 2009, 08:04:31 PM

it doesn't look anywhere near clipping, but the sound is very distorted, mainly the bass... is there a reason why that would happen? It sounded OK in the venue.

How much gain were you adding?

One essential setting for Rockbox when recording an analog source: AGC safety clip.
http://www.taperssection.com/index.php/topic,73139.0.html
This make sure you don't clip from adding too much gain, so there's one less factor that could go wrong. Did you apply it?

Sarah · « **Reply #21 on:** September 28, 2009, 08:39:35 AM »

Thanks for the replies. I did use my battery box, I should have mentioned that. If the waveform in Audacity is telling me the truth then it is definitely not clipping, it is a different type of distortion (and it sounds different than that digital kind of clipping noise too). I used the Rockbox ACG safety clip setting (I always do) and it ended up around +5 or +6.

They didn't offer the low sensitivity mod on the mic I got but it says the max input sound level is 110dB SPL or 125 dB with battery box which seemed OK to me for concerts...

How close is "too close" to the speaker stack as a rule of thumb? If volume is not the issue... can the proximity still cause a problem due to air movement etc.?

Trying to post a short audio clip so you can hear it...

su6oxone · « **Reply #22 on:** September 28, 2009, 08:53:37 AM »

Quote from: Sarah on September 28, 2009, 08:39:35 AM

They didn't offer the low sensitivity mod on the mic I got but it says the max input sound level is 110dB SPL or 125 dB with battery box which seemed OK to me for concerts...

The AT853 and AT943 tend to require the 'low sensitivity' mod to avoid distorting at loud shows. I got the exact same kind of distortion that you described at a few shows before I realized that it was the mics distorting. Definitely I would send it back in to get it done or you can also ask Chris Church to do it for you since he was the one who came up with the idea originally.

Sarah · « **Reply #23 on:** September 30, 2009, 10:20:20 PM »

I tried this rig again last night, exactly the same setup... it was a fairly loud show (not ear-splitting but about as loud as the typical shows I go to) and this recording does not have the same distortion problems as the first show I tried. I was not as close to the speaker stack this time and it may have been a touch quieter overall but even the loudest parts show no distortion at all. I think I was just too close to the stack last time.

I didn't have ideal placement since it was a seated show and I didn't get there early enough to get the best seats, but overall I am pretty happy with the sound.

illconditioned · « **Reply #24 on:** September 30, 2009, 10:35:13 PM »

Quote from: Sarah on September 19, 2009, 02:15:05 PM

I'm stealth taping, mainly at loud rock clubs with rock/folk/alt.country kind of stuff. Occasionally I'll do a quieter seated venue too. My current taping gear consists of an iRiver H140 (rockboxed of course), Sound Professionals cardioid mics (SP-CMC-19) and a mini battery box which I don't always use since I haven't noticed a lot of difference with it. I can't remember where I got it and there's no label on it so I can't say what kind it is... probably from Sound Professionals as well.

I generally come up with pretty clean recordings, but they have a bit of that bottom-of-the-well / distant / tinny thing going on. (Not terrible, but enough to want improvement.) What's the best place to spend money for a good SQ improvement? I'm thinking a new mic but I'm not sure where the sweet spot is for pricing and where you hit diminishing returns. I'm also not sure what kind of mic would work best with the H140, or if I'm better off with omnidirectional or cardioid. I tend to like to stand as close to the stage as possible since my priorities are usually for show enjoyment over show taping (and also the not-very-tall thing, I can't see over anyone if I'm further back). I've also wondered if I'd be better off with a single mic since I don't do a left/right stereo placement anyway.

If you think that tinny sound is more from methodology / placement I'd love to hear that too. I think I often set the gain too low, I don't tape often enough to really nail it down for each venue I go to so I am usually conservative to avoid clipping.

I'd love to keep any expenditures under $150 but could go higher if it would make a real improvement.

If you like alt.country (at least Canadian artists) visit my website, http://Soundmann.com. I've got quite a few clips there, and different gear combinations to hear. Note that most of my stuff was made with mics way up close, taped or clamped somewhere near the stage. A few "hat" recordings though.

Richard