Topic: best portable digital recorder to record trumpet

[Will_S]

I haven't heard the internal mics on the M10, but I'd be quite surprised if they outperformed the AT822.  The D50's might or might at least be comparable, but in practice the greater placement flexibility with the AT822 or other external mics will likely still give you better sound.  But certainly I'd suggest trying whatever recorder you get with and without the AT822 before deciding you need to buy anything more, and don't blindly assume the AT822 will outperform the built in mics.

Regarding the DSM mics...or any omnidirectional mics for that matter...there are multiple ways to introduce differences in timing and amplitude (and perhaps frequency response) of signals in the left vs right channels.  The HRTF method, where the mics are placed near the temples of a real or surrogate head, is one very effective way of getting these things "just right".  Sticking the mics on a Nerf ball will not have quite the same effect, but it will introduce some differences between channels that may still result in a pleasing stereo effect.  Same goes for spacing the mics by a foot or perhaps more.  As an option that's cheaper/easier to construct than an artificial head, but probably more effective than a Nerf ball, you might want to google Jecklin disk.

[goodcooker]

I didn't read every line of this thread but I'll put in my 2 cents worth...
If I wanted to record trumpet for myself and for students I would buy a microphone that suits that purpose. When I see brass recorded or live I have seen a variety of dynamic microphones used not the type of phantom powered condensers that people on this forum most often use and recommend. What type or brand is best is open for speculation but if you want bang for your buck a Shure sm57 is around $100 new and will work just fine. If you want some real quality get a Beyerdynamic M160 ribbon mic. It costs 5 times the price of the sm57 but it kicks ass on horns. You could find a used one for a lot less.

So how do you run it into your recorder? Get an inexpensive little mixer (I have a Yamaha that I paid $50 bucks for) to control the gain and route the signal to your recorder. A line out from the recorder into the mixer will also give you the extra headphone output you need for your student (and separate gain control for those phones). This would also allow you to change/monitor the gain on the recorder without having to stand over your student and have him blasting a trumpet in your face while you try to set levels.

I'm not a fan of internal mics on mini recorders at all. I use a Marantz PMD620 as my main recorder but only line in. It might do exactly what you want it to do and you should certainly try it before spending any more money....but if I was paying for lessons ( I don't know if you teach at a school or for hire ) I would expect more than a mini recorder stuck on a mic stand with the teacher looming over me while setting levels.

Don't get all caught up in creating stereo imaging with this project....for recording solo trumpet that is the exact opposite of what you need. One trumpet = one mic.

I say get the M10 and try the internals. If the sound, features and form factor are what you need you're set. If not try your AT822. Still not happy get a little mixer, a few cables and a decent dynamic mic.

If that doesn't do it for you.....sell everything you own and get some DPA 4011s, a Grace preamp and a Sound Devices recorder. Then you'll be happy!

[fintonissimo]

If that doesn't do it for you.....sell everything you own and get some DPA 4011s, a Grace preamp and a Sound Devices recorder. Then you'll be happy!
[/quote]

Yeah, and then I will start becoming like you guys!

You make a lot of excellent points and have given me some good ideas, as well as validate some of what I thought already. Thank you.

To be clear, though, I'm not interested in sound quality recording for my students. I want to have sound quality to record demos of myself, to also perhaps put clips on a future webpage, or maybe even use to make a cd of trumpet and piano, or brass quintet. The M10 could be a really nice teaching tool, though, because while a kid is playing I could whip it out, record him while still holding it in my hand, and then play it back for him quickly. For those of you who don't realize, quite often with kids I'll tell them something in a lesson and they don't believe me. For instance, things like "you're flat/sharp", "you're rushing here", etc. When I record them and play it back, then they finally figure out why I'm saying what I'm saying. I rarely use a recorder in lessons, but the M10 could be an effective tool to diagnose problems, especially with the ability to slow things down on playback.

I guess in all of these posts I was/am really trying to find somebody (hopefully a like-minded trumpet player) that has been down this road to tell me what they think the best setup will be before I spend a bunch of money trying to figure it out all on my own.

[guysonic]

The 822 mic may not have the loudness handling (only116 dB SPL ability?) or consistant natural sound to fully satisfy a discerning musician wanting studio quality or better results.

The DSM mic can be headworn even by the player of the instrument if what he's hearing is acceptable. 

Standard mic stand or boom mounting does require an HRTF baffle or something with some HRTF acoustic properties.  Nothing like what has been suggested here (nerf, coffee can, Jecklin disc, etc) work in an acceptable manner, without introducing serious and unpredictable artifacts/coloration.

While I do have a real HRTF mic-stand-threaded LiteGUY baffle for mounting any of the normally headworn DSM models, a very cheap baffle with no artifacts and acceptable imaging/natural sound is easily constructed using an all cotton twine-bound bath towel approximating human head height/dia. dimensions. 

The tightly bound towel is itself made by winding around a ~1.5" dia. 12" length wooden dowel with a standard 5/8" fine mic-stand-threaded flange bolted one end.

This Atlas-made 3-hole female threaded flange is available from Full Compass via phone/mailorder for a few bucks.

The LiteGUY HRTF baffle is pictured at: www.sonicstudios.com/liteguy.htm

[fintonissimo]

I'm very fascinated with your mics and the thinking behind it, approaching the recording of sound from the same perspective as the way people naturally hear it! I haven't completely made up my mind, but I think I want to give your mics a try; once I get either the Sony M10 or D50. Earlier you recommended the DSM-6S/L for high quality. With this mic, would it matter whether or not I'm close or far away? In other words, are there any limitations to how I would use it? My instinct generally would be to record at least 8 feet away from the bell of the trumpet, and raised up about 8 ft. so that I'm not blowing directly into it. What about recording a brass quintet in a recital hall? Maybe back several rows in the center aisle and raised up higher than the instruments?

You said: "The DSM mic can be headworn even by the player of the instrument if what he's hearing is acceptable."

Ok, but I'm pretty sure that with the trumpet being a directional instrument as it is, this won't be very good. The sound one hears while playing is quite different from what other people are hearing for a variety of reasons. 
 
You also described: "The tightly bound towel is itself made by winding around a ~1.5" dia. 12" length wooden dowel with a standard 5/8" fine mic-stand-threaded flange bolted one end.

This Atlas-made 3-hole female threaded flange is available from Full Compass via phone/mailorder for a few bucks."

After about 20 minutes, I finally found the flange part you are describing...(their search engine didn't recognize the terms you used.) However, I did find the part, and from your description, this looks like something I can do; and a fun project! My only worry is the creation of this mummy head might make me laugh whenever I record myself or others!

Chuck

[guysonic]

“With this mic, would it matter whether or not I'm close or far away?”
If HRTF headworn, or baffle mounted, you can answer this question yourself just be objectively listening to what’s heard at the mic position. 

Being very close < 1 meter, or >10 meter distance is your choice for what sound you want to record.  The DSM-6S/L will handle this task in good way. 

Having the mic inside the WHB/N windscreen allows for both being very close where instrument wind is generated, and for recording outside in any weather conditions (wind/rain) allowing for creative acoustic/ambient experimentation without mic use limitations.

Placing a HRTF dummy-head baffled mic at a distance or height you are not personally hearing makes for an unknown recorded result. 

Even monitoring with headphones is “hearing” an alteration or headphone generated perception, so you are not hearing (exactly, or sometimes not even close to) what the mics are actually recording.

“My only worry is the creation of this mummy head might make me laugh whenever I record myself or others!”
Humor should not detract from your projects, and you can use all-cotton case slipcover of any color or pattern over you towel baffle so to change the appearance for desired effect.

In 1993, I once used the full size GUY HRTF baffle on a 10-foot high tripod stand (GUY looks like a slightly oversized gray alien head) at ‘The Oregon Triode Society’ theatre organ recording session/meeting held at the Pizza Grinder located in Portland. 

Many different conventional mics on stands where being used/compared and played back using massively large monitor speakers for judging mic recorded performance.  And the mics owner verbally described each different mic so members understood what was being used before hearing a sample of the mic’s recording. 

I playfully described my mic as a “dummy head on a stick” mic and got a roar of laughter, but also much appreciation for what was heard when my recording played. 

The recordings made that night have been posted on my web for over 10 years and remain one of the few definitive theatre organ recordings by which all other such recordings, low frequency speaker test recordings, and keyboard performance is compared.

[fintonissimo]

"Placing a HRTF dummy-head baffled mic at a distance or height you are not personally hearing makes for an unknown recorded result."

So, in the case of recording in an auditorium, are you suggesting setting the mic up at a level of somebody sitting in a seat? If I was in my practice studio, (a relatively small room) I don't know where the best sound in the room would be. Maybe it sounds better closer to the ceiling, but I wouldn't know because I'm not that tall. Obviously with a little experimentation I could determine the best placement of the mic. In a general sense, though, it seems like you are saying to place the mic at a height equal to where somebody listening to me play would be, correct? Just like I wouldn't point my bell directly at anybody listening, I should do the same with this mic, I would assume, to get the best result. 
 
"I playfully described my mic as a “dummy head on a stick” mic and got a roar of laughter, but also much appreciation for what was heard when my recording played."

Very cool...doesn't matter how it looks if it delivers! Actually, a sense of humor while recording can be a good thing! 

[guysonic]

"Placing a HRTF dummy-head baffled mic at a distance or height you are not personally hearing makes for an unknown recorded result."

 So, in the case of recording in an auditorium, are you suggesting setting the mic up at a level of somebody sitting in a seat? If I was in my practice studio, (a relatively small room) I don't know where the best sound in the room would be. Maybe it sounds better closer to the ceiling, but I wouldn't know because I'm not that tall. Obviously with a little experimentation I could determine the best placement of the mic. In a general sense, though, it seems like you are saying to place the mic at a height equal to where somebody listening to me play would be, correct? Just like I wouldn't point my bell directly at anybody listening, I should do the same with this mic, I would assume, to get the best result.

When practical, I often place my mic up in the air ~10-12' to reduce audience noises during live performances.

In most cases, and all I’m saying is, UNLESS  you actually listen carefully EXACTLY at the mic position, you may OR may not get what is expected or desired. 

And yes, experimentation with different at instrument/mic location takes, when you have the time/option, is always good practice. 

If in your studio or even if working remote location try to budget time to see what works and what doesn't for a particular instrument placement/mic position fitting the desired musical arrangement/mood.

With remotely locating the baffle in places I can’t be in, I use the most natural, and isolating phones owned if recording while performance is happening. 

While this does NOT let me hear the sound quality being recorded, it does give good idea of the mix of instruments (if more than one playing) to the ambient sound (music to hall sounds mix) at the chosen baffle position.

[fintonissimo]

I'm still making up my mind, but I am at least serious enough about wanting to try the dsm mics that I went to home depot to find a wooden dowel to use to make the head. However, the biggest diameter of wooden dowel I could find was only 1 3/8". It looks like the diameter of the metal flange that would go on there is 1 3/4". So, I found a little round sculptured wooden knob which has a threaded screw, (it's designed to be a top knot), and I cut it in half. I then drilled a hole into the 1 3/8" dowel and threaded the cut piece in, and glued it together with gorilla glue. Now I have enough surface area that I can attach the metal flange without worrying about the screws having enough wood to screw into. So far my project has only cost me a little time and $4.75!

[fintonissimo]

I just finished making my head, with the exception of attaching the flange which still needs to be ordered. It will probably be awhile before I can try him out, because I don't have money right now to spend on the deck or mics. However, when I get my deck and the new mics, I will be all set to put them to the test!