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Author Topic: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!  (Read 14235 times)

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Offline live2cd

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HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« on: September 27, 2011, 01:30:09 AM »
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/30779496/fuel2011-09-26-sample.mp3

(now i emailed Chris Church on this too...)

tonight for the first time i used my HEB DPA4060 omnis > 9200 preamp > edirol...  (chris modded my DPA's to work with his preamp)

i made SURE my levels were low enough. i made sure it did not go over 12 on the edirol's screen ....
my edirol's input was at 3.

im not sure what i did wrong. i made 100% sure i was not spiking and the recording sounds all distorted. should i have kept the 9200 volume lower? i had it at about 35/40% turned on...  im at a loss, my core sound filter box never produced results like this :(

Ive heard the 9200 is louder than the 9100...  did I opt for the wrong pre-amp? I did get the CA-14's as well and when I run those into the 9200 there has yet to be a problem.
Any help would be appreciated. guess i gotta go find another band to tape and  use trial error. maybe someone here uses this setup can chime in!

-dewey
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Offline hi and lo

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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2011, 01:44:19 AM »
The original R-09? Without question you overloaded it's line input. This is fairly easy to do and you should never run the R-09 below 8. 12-18 would be even better, although I can't remember what unity is.

4060's are pretty hot and if you are recording loud sources all you really need is a battery box. I don't know what the minimum gain of the 9200 is, but you're going to need to dial it back quite a bit.

Offline live2cd

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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2011, 01:53:11 AM »
Yes, the original R09.
Ive been recording with the CS battery box going back to 2005 with these and have NEVER had a problem. (I tape loud rock shows all the time)... and this was my first problem.
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Offline illconditioned

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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2011, 02:04:06 AM »
Was that mic or line input on the Edirol?

You probably overloaded the *output* on the preamp.  Level #3/30, either mic or line input requires a very hot signal.

Instead, you should set the Edirol input level first.  Set it to something like 15/30 (mic input) or 20/30 (line input).  This is the a reasonable level, like a consumer line level signal.  Then turn up the preamp gain so that the levels are just over 12dB.

Oh yeah, you don't really need a preamp here.  The 4060's are hot mics, so a battery box directly into the Edirol (mic in, plug in power off) is the best.  The preamp won't hurt anything, but the fewer components in the chain, the better.  Simpler to carry and power too.

  Richard
« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 02:06:55 AM by illconditioned »
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Offline live2cd

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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2011, 02:42:55 AM »
line input....

I knew the 4060s were HOT going in, thats why Im not sure why Chris wanted to mod them with the 9200, but I thought it might be best. Perhaps I should re-mod them back w/ the Core Sound battery box? But, ive heard bad things about the wiring in those.
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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2011, 02:48:18 AM »
line input....

I knew the 4060s were HOT going in, thats why Im not sure why Chris wanted to mod them with the 9200, but I thought it might be best. Perhaps I should re-mod them back w/ the Core Sound battery box? But, ive heard bad things about the wiring in those.
Try turning the gain on the 9200 to the lowest level you can, make up the gain on the Edirol.  That will probably work.

  Richard
Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2011, 03:01:45 AM »
ok will do. i did have the gain up 1 notch on the CA-9200, I forgot to mention that. I could bring it down to the lowest.
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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2011, 07:25:18 AM »
The original R-09? Without question you overloaded it's line input. This is fairly easy to do and you should never run the R-09 below 8. 12-18 would be even better, although I can't remember what unity is.

Unity gain is a bit in question, but many think it is 13 (some say as much as 18). I would set the R-09 to 13 and adjust your levels with the CA-9200. Experiment to see if the CA-9200 should be set to 0 (like a battery box) or maybe 10 dB in order to get proper levels on the R-09. If the R-09 is set to 13 and you are getting proper levels peaking below 0 dB there will be no issues with distortion.
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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2011, 10:31:34 AM »
Unity gain is a bit in question, but many think it is 13 (some say as much as 18). I would set the R-09 to 13 and adjust your levels with the CA-9200. Experiment to see if the CA-9200 should be set to 0 (like a battery box) or maybe 10 dB in order to get proper levels on the R-09. If the R-09 is set to 13 and you are getting proper levels peaking below 0 dB there will be no issues with distortion.
Line Level input is 13 on the original R09 (I had one and never ran into issues with either my CMC-8's, CA-14's or CAFS).  I have a feeling the CA-9200 was pumping out too hot a level (I use a 9100).  As fmadejr suggests, try setting the 9200 to as close to "0" gain as possible and then you can either adjust the levels marginally on the deck or boost the gain slightly on the 9200.  If I'm not mistaken, the 9200 can boost the hell out of a signal so that might've been the issue.

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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2011, 12:07:37 PM »
I have a 9200 and run it with the 4061s (which are far less hot/sensitive, hence why I use them). 

Also worth noting is that if yours is like mine it has the "click" gain knobs (big steps in gain) plus the "variable" knob (the one that turns it on).

To avoid overloading it, I've found the best method is (1) set deck to "Unity" gain or something (on my M10, 5 or 6), (2) turn the "variable" knob ALL THE WAY UP but leave the "click" knob as low as possible.  Only increase steps on the "click" knob if you aren't getting good levels on the the prior "click" setting.  That is, only use the variable if for some reason you like carefully calibrating levels on your recorder. Since your recorder is digital, I don't see much reason to do that, but....
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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2011, 02:12:00 PM »
Line Level input is 13 on the original R09 (I had one and never ran into issues with either my CMC-8's, CA-14's or CAFS).  I have a feeling the CA-9200 was pumping out too hot a level (I use a 9100).  As fmadejr suggests, try setting the 9200 to as close to "0" gain as possible and then you can either adjust the levels marginally on the deck or boost the gain slightly on the 9200.  If I'm not mistaken, the 9200 can boost the hell out of a signal so that might've been the issue.

True, but if the R-09 had been set to unity gain, most likely the R-09's meter would have been going over 0 dB if the 9200 was providing too much gain (providing an easy way to tell how much gain you can set the 9200 to provide). It may be that at a loud show the 9200 could be set to 10 or 15 without going over 0 DB. Since live2CD originally had the R-09 set all the way down to 3, it could be that the 9200 was set to 30 0r 40.
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Offline live2cd

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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2011, 03:06:05 PM »
I guess I am unfamiliar w/ what "unity" gain is.

Does this mean I leave the Edirol at 0 on the input? I think my main issue was using the click knob on the 9200 up 1. next time i will leave it at the lowest and go from there ...

i will say this tho, next time i run the 4060s to the 9200 im not taping a band i care about!
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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2011, 04:25:36 PM »
I guess I am unfamiliar w/ what "unity" gain is.

Does this mean I leave the Edirol at 0 on the input?

NO, going too low on the R-09 input setting is the problem.  Never try to use the R-09 at an input level setting below 8.  Set it at 13 and leave it there (I used to shoot for 15 and adjust mine from about 10-20 without worrying anything about it).  Then start with the 9200 at it's lowest setting and add gain with the 9200 until you get good levels on the R-09 display.  If the levels are too hot even with the 9200 set as low as it will go*, then reduce the R-09 input setting from 13 down to 8, BUT DON'T GO ANY LOWER.

*I'm not familiar with how the 9200 gain controls work.  This assumes the lowest setting on the 9200 doesn't mute the input as some other preamps do.  If it does, then start with the lowest setting that still provides signal.  .
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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2011, 05:05:29 PM »
Gutbucket has it precisely right. Follow his workflow and you should be ok.

With that said, I question the need for using the preamp at all. If the source material is loud enough, which it sounds like most of what your record is, the value added by the preamp is anywhere from questionable to downright risky.

A battery box is about as transparent as it gets so if the mics+bbox alone provides enough signal, you're going to have to 150% confident that any 'coloration' imparted by the preamp is desirable. Transformer based preamps can, by popular opinion, impart some nice warmth or color to the recording, but otherwise it's mostly helpful to think of a preamp as something that simply amplifies the source signal as transparently as possible for no other reason that to reach acceptable recording levels.

All too often I see questionable, imo, advise that adding a preamp might improve one's recording. If the mics are already properly powered and reach acceptable recording levels, adding a preamp to the signal chain starts is really just encroaching upon 'snake oil' territory.

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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2011, 05:16:52 PM »
I can confirm that 4060s shouldn't need any added gain for loud music and a battery box should do fine.  An external preamp can be useful for quiet material, but for loud stuff a simple battery box works fine and simplifies things.  Keep it simple and there is less to go wrong.
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Offline live2cd

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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2011, 05:36:38 PM »
Maybe I should get my DPA 4060s re-terminated to the original CS battery box then? Im still unsure of why Chris recommended to do it this way, as my original setup was great as it was. He did say the CS battery box has had faulty wiring and a lot of people have complained about that. Maybe he wanted me to steer clear of problems that could have arose. But yeah, if Im mainly taping loud rock bands in small clubs (which is what my omnis are for -- I bought his CA-14's for arenas and theaters), Im going to have problems if this happens when I bring the gain all the way down.
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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2011, 06:08:31 PM »
The 9200 is likely to work fine if you set it correctly, and gives you the flexibility for recording quiet material.  Plus it sounds like you plan to use it with your CA-14s as well, which are probably less sensitive than the 4060s and so can use more gain.  If you always record loud material, then maybe ask Chris about exchanging the 9200 for one of his CA-UGLY-BB battery boxes, which are simple and reliable.  They are well built and inexpensive, so you might want both a battery box and the preamp, to choose between depending on the situation.

If using the 9200, leave the R-09 at 13 and adjust the preamp. 
Using a battery box, you'll adjust gain as needed on the recorder.

In either case, you will get distortion if you have to set the R-09 below 8 to keep it from clipping.
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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2011, 09:13:34 PM »
The 9200 is likely to work fine if you set it correctly, and gives you the flexibility for recording quiet material.  Plus it sounds like you plan to use it with your CA-14s as well, which are probably less sensitive than the 4060s and so can use more gain.  If you always record loud material, then maybe ask Chris about exchanging the 9200 for one of his CA-UGLY-BB battery boxes, which are simple and reliable.  They are well built and inexpensive, so you might want both a battery box and the preamp, to choose between depending on the situation.

If using the 9200, leave the R-09 at 13 and adjust the preamp. 
Using a battery box, you'll adjust gain as needed on the recorder.

In either case, you will get distortion if you have to set the R-09 below 8 to keep it from clipping.
Good call.  I'll +1 this.  I have both a 9100 and a CA-UBB for this reason.  Sometimes I'm in situations where I need to gain up and like the flexibility of using the battery box to do so and then the deck if I absolutely have to.   I also agree in the "less is more" situation when in louder situations; it makes life so-much easier.

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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2011, 10:03:17 PM »
I also have the HEB 4061s and havent had any wiring issues with the battery box and ive been using it for 6 years. Also have the  CSBs with bbox without any wiring issues in use for 8 years.You dont need the preamp imo.

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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2011, 10:20:39 PM »
Sell me the 9200 ;)
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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2011, 01:17:14 AM »
I have a somewhat related question to this thread.  I run 4061's > 9100 > M10 usually.  I have this setup dialed in for the most part.

I have a CA-UBB battery box and am thinking of putting this in the chain instead of the 9100. 

My question is, when using just a battery box would I typically go Mic In or Line In?  Plug In Power on or off?

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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2011, 01:40:14 AM »
I have a somewhat related question to this thread.  I run 4061's > 9100 > M10 usually.  I have this setup dialed in for the most part.

I have a CA-UBB battery box and am thinking of putting this in the chain instead of the 9100. 

My question is, when using just a battery box would I typically go Mic In or Line In?  Plug In Power on or off?

TIA

PIP OFF. I have run CA14 Cards>SP BB>MIC-IN>M10, and it was for the ragbirds FOB/DFC :) So I guess what I'm saying is it depends on how loud the source is ;)
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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2011, 09:47:36 AM »
I guess I am unfamiliar w/ what "unity" gain is.

Unity gain, if I understand it correctly, is the record level setting on your recorder where its internal preamp is neither boosting the signal nor attenuating it.

My 9100 preamp is at  unity around 11:00 on the knob, IIRC. Below that you are attenuating, above it you are adding gain, and at 11:00 it's essentially a battery box. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.
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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2011, 11:31:36 AM »
I guess I am unfamiliar w/ what "unity" gain is.

Unity gain, if I understand it correctly, is the record level setting on your recorder where its internal preamp is neither boosting the signal nor attenuating it.

My 9100 preamp is at  unity around 11:00 on the knob, IIRC. Below that you are attenuating, above it you are adding gain, and at 11:00 it's essentially a battery box. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

This is essentially correct.  Although the concept of unity gain is somewhat blurry with these all-in-one units.

unity gain = no change in signal strength
Amplify/attenuate signal = positive/negative gain

'Unity gain' is more strait-forward when refering to a piece of gear that is in the middle of a signal chain.  In that case you can measure the signal voltage going in and coming out. The gain setting on the device that makes those values equal is the unity gain setting.  This is important with outboard studio gear where lots of different stuff may be chained together.  Optimizing the signal levels through the entire signal chain is called 'gain staging'.

In these all-in-one devices the end result is a digital file.  We can't really measure gain between the internal stages of the device, nor would we need to since the gain staging is done by the manufacturer as an integral part of the design.

Instead we look for the 'sweet spot' that is the comfortable zone between the extremes of noise at one end and distortion at the other.  We tend to call that unity gain around here, but 'sweet spot' is more acurate since there is no way of knowing if that is really unity or not.  Something like unity gain applies more clearly to some all-in-one machines which have settings referencing specific input levels for their line inputs. 


The concept of unity gain is simple to apply to external devices such as preamps though.  A battery box is a 'unity gain' device since it doesn't change the voltage of the signal going in an out (it only provides power to the mics), unless it has built in pads or filters, in which case it would decrease signal level if those are switched in.  In that case it would no longer be a unity gain device but would be applying 'negative gain'.  An adjustable gain preamp has a range of gain available, and that range is depends on the design.  Some always amplify (they always increase gain by some variable amount), some have a range that starts at unity (they have zero gain at the lowest setting), and others may attenuate or even completely mute the signal at the lowest setting (they can have negative gain or positive gain).  With a preamp, the gain can be measured across the device and the unity or zero-gain point can be determined... or you can just ask the manufacturer.

So to bring the discussion full circle, the 9200 can probably be set for unity gain, where it does not amplify the signal and essentially only provides power to the mics like a battery box.  Chris Church can confirm that for you.
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Offline Belexes

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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2011, 11:36:33 AM »
I wouldn't run a pre with the 4060's. BB only or power the mics via the power from the deck if feasible. (not sure on the R09)
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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2011, 12:02:43 PM »
I wouldn't run a pre with the 4060's. BB only or power the mics via the power from the deck if feasible. (not sure on the R09)

It's not. Outboard power required for the DPAs
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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2011, 01:08:25 PM »
I'm going to rephrase what several people have said, hoping it may benefit someone when it's explained this way.

- If the signal coming into the R09 is so hot that you need to turn it down below 8 to avoid clipping, then the signal is too hot and the R09 can't deal with it.
- If you want to make your R09 really happy, set your R09 at something like 15 and then adjust your your preamp so it puts out a signal which makes the R09 happy.
- If you have the preamp all the way down and it's still too hot, you don't need a preamp, a battery box is fine.
- With a battery box, if you run line-in to the R09 and need to crank the gain to 30 and it's still not enough, switch to "mic in" on the R09.

As a point of reference, I've run DPA4061's > ST9100 > line-in R09 at a loud show with the R09 mid-range and the ST9100 at mid-range which tells me the ST9100 is only providing a little gain, and I could probably use a battery box and line-in.  This makes me think he will end up running 4060's/battbox/line in.  Wasn't that what everyone did before Church preamps were common?  Mics > batt box > line in to D8 or mini-disk?  I've run AT853's or CSB's > battbox > line in R09, it works fine.
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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2011, 02:13:38 PM »
I have a somewhat related question to this thread.  I run 4061's > 9100 > M10 usually.  I have this setup dialed in for the most part.

I have a CA-UBB battery box and am thinking of putting this in the chain instead of the 9100. 

My question is, when using just a battery box would I typically go Mic In or Line In?  Plug In Power on or off?

TIA

PIP OFF. I have run CA14 Cards>SP BB>MIC-IN>M10, and it was for the ragbirds FOB/DFC :) So I guess what I'm saying is it depends on how loud the source is ;)

If you're using a battery box, you definitely want plug-in power off.  It's unnecessary as the BB is what's powering the mics.  FWIW, the "line-in" inputs don't have PIP, that's just on the "mic-in".  Since the "line-in" input also tends to have less coloration than the "mic-in", that's the preferable input to use unless you need more gain.  If you do, use the "mic-in".

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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2011, 02:33:25 PM »
Maybe I should get my DPA 4060s re-terminated to the original CS battery box then? Im still unsure of why Chris recommended to do it this way, as my original setup was great as it was. He did say the CS battery box has had faulty wiring and a lot of people have complained about that. Maybe he wanted me to steer clear of problems that could have arose.

Going back to this... some general thoughts about your termination options.

It's true the Coresound battery boxes can be prone to failure. I consider it poor design to not have reinforced the mini-xlr jack with epoxy or some type of glue. Excessive force on the mini-xlr plug when connected can certainly create enough pressure to break the solder joints. FWIW, I've repaired or modified well over a dozen CSB or HEB boxes... the capacitor value choice in the HEB's was particularly awful for roll-off.

With that said, I would strongly disagree with any recommendation to terminate your mics an 1/8" stereo mini plug. There is no worse connector for what we do! Stereo mini plugs are just begging to become accidentally disconnected and develop shorts rather easily. The standard locking 4-pin mini-xlr that comes with the HEB's is actually a very nice design and will be infinitely more reliable in the long-run even if the battery box jack is not reinforced. The only thing I don't like about it is the pigtail design, but it's something you learn to live with. I would personally prefer a dedicated mini-xlr output so that you could use a variety of breakout cables dependent on the situation.

If you really want to improve your rig, my advise is to get a Tinybox. Jon can build you one with a 6-pin locking mini-xlr that provides both input and out along with a dedicated 1/8" stereo out. Gain settings of 0-10-20 would have you covered in virtually any situation with the 4060s.


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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2011, 08:54:50 PM »
I wouldn't run a pre with the 4060's. BB only or power the mics via the power from the deck if feasible. (not sure on the R09)

It's not recommended to power 4060's (or 4061's) with any small recorder's plug in power. In my experience, the Marantz PMD-620  will do it fine with its 4.6 volts PIP, but that's still not as much as recommended by the manufacturer. It should definitely not be attempted with recorders with lesser PIP (which is basically all of them except for the Micro Crappers).
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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #30 on: October 06, 2011, 04:05:03 PM »
^^^ Interesting.  What sort of shows have you taped that way (4060 > PMD620 on PIP)?  Anything on either extreme of the volume spectrum?  Curious if distortion is a problem for loud shows  and noise for quiet shows (the recorder is noisier with plug-in power on).  I have been thinking for a while about getting a microdot to 1/8" Y cable and giving it a try...

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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #31 on: October 06, 2011, 04:16:37 PM »
^^^ Interesting.  What sort of shows have you taped that way (4060 > PMD620 on PIP)?  Anything on either extreme of the volume spectrum?  Curious if distortion is a problem for loud shows  and noise for quiet shows (the recorder is noisier with plug-in power on).  I have been thinking for a while about getting a microdot to 1/8" Y cable and giving it a try...

You'd want to make a test yourself on something you don't really care about in case it doesn't work for you. I only taped a friend's loud cover band that way. It sounded fine and the wave form looked fine. I usually don't record with my 4060's. I'm generally not an omni fan due to the chatter you pick up at noisy venues.
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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2011, 01:17:11 PM »
^^^ Thanks, fmaderjr.  I have been thinking about trying this for quite some time, ever since I saw a post (from goodcooker, maybe) saying it was do-able.  Your experience with a loud band has convinced me to give it a try.  Most of what I record is moderate in volume, so I am not too worried about overloading if you've had no problems with a loud source.  It will definitely make for a compact travel set-up!

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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2011, 05:08:09 PM »
It will definitely make for a compact travel set-up!

It sure will. I just recorded the same band with an old pair of Sonic Studios DSM-6's (in great condition that I couldn't resist picking up cheap)  > M10 PIP. The M10 perfectly powers DSM mics according to Len. It sounded great and was very easy to use. I think I'll use that setup again fairly often and may eventually think of selling my 4060's since I don't think I need both. The 4060's would be better for quiet stuff, but I don't do much of that.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2011, 05:17:37 PM by fmaderjr »
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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2011, 06:17:02 PM »
It sure will. I just recorded the same band with an old pair of Sonic Studios DSM-6's (in great condition that I couldn't resist picking up cheap)  > M10 PIP. The M10 perfectly powers DSM mics according to Len. It sounded great and was very easy to use. I think I'll use that setup again fairly often and may eventually think of selling my 4060's since I don't think I need both. The 4060's would be better for quiet stuff, but I don't do much of that.
Cool to hear.  And to think I just picked up a pair of 4061's... you're killing me.  :)

I'd been considering the DSM-6's as well for this very reason.  Len has stated on his site (and here for that matter) that the M10 powers them perfectly.  Makes a very nice  >:D rig without the need for a battery box/preamp in-line.  I'll be happy with my 4061's and battery box... and maybe if I see some DSM-6's come up... (don't tempt me). 

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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2011, 01:24:55 AM »
Maybe I should get my DPA 4060s re-terminated to the original CS battery box then? Im still unsure of why Chris recommended to do it this way, as my original setup was great as it was. He did say the CS battery box has had faulty wiring and a lot of people have complained about that. Maybe he wanted me to steer clear of problems that could have arose.

Going back to this... some general thoughts about your termination options.

It's true the Coresound battery boxes can be prone to failure. I consider it poor design to not have reinforced the mini-xlr jack with epoxy or some type of glue. Excessive force on the mini-xlr plug when connected can certainly create enough pressure to break the solder joints. FWIW, I've repaired or modified well over a dozen CSB or HEB boxes... the capacitor value choice in the HEB's was particularly awful for roll-off.

With that said, I would strongly disagree with any recommendation to terminate your mics an 1/8" stereo mini plug. There is no worse connector for what we do! Stereo mini plugs are just begging to become accidentally disconnected and develop shorts rather easily. The standard locking 4-pin mini-xlr that comes with the HEB's is actually a very nice design and will be infinitely more reliable in the long-run even if the battery box jack is not reinforced. The only thing I don't like about it is the pigtail design, but it's something you learn to live with. I would personally prefer a dedicated mini-xlr output so that you could use a variety of breakout cables dependent on the situation.

If you really want to improve your rig, my advise is to get a Tinybox. Jon can build you one with a 6-pin locking mini-xlr that provides both input and out along with a dedicated 1/8" stereo out. Gain settings of 0-10-20 would have you covered in virtually any situation with the 4060s.


Really well I have sold about 2000 or more preamps ALL with 3.5 mm connectors you know how many returns I get for a bad input jack about 2 a year. 3.5 mm jacks can be fine if you use the right high quality connectors. I have found a way to mount them and the proper connectors that dont fail. I also offer locking connectors to customers that want to pay the difference. But to say that 3.5 mm is the worst connector for taping is misleading and untrue.

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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #36 on: October 10, 2011, 01:30:34 AM »
Maybe I should get my DPA 4060s re-terminated to the original CS battery box then? Im still unsure of why Chris recommended to do it this way, as my original setup was great as it was. He did say the CS battery box has had faulty wiring and a lot of people have complained about that. Maybe he wanted me to steer clear of problems that could have arose. But yeah, if Im mainly taping loud rock bands in small clubs (which is what my omnis are for -- I bought his CA-14's for arenas and theaters), Im going to have problems if this happens when I bring the gain all the way down.

The distortion is coming from your mics or the preamp being set to loud and overloading the input of your recorder. I dont recommend using more than 15 db of gain with these mics for loud shows. The 4060 will overload with loud shows. I have see it happen time and time again. The 4061 is the mic you want if you dont want overload. The CS box has an issue with the 4 pin connector they use because they are using the shell for signal ground something it was never designed for. It was designed for a shield not to pass audio its a press fit connection that is prone to corrosion and failure. They should use a 5 pin connector or a 6 pin connector to avoid this. Press fit connections have no business in the signal chain. Also make sure you have a fresh 9v in this preamp of quality.
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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #37 on: October 10, 2011, 10:12:13 AM »

But to say that 3.5 mm is the worst connector for taping is misleading and untrue.

Right...  ::)

You're not going to get a returned product when someone loses 5-10 seconds of their recording because they've yanked the mini plug cable out while pulling their preamp out of their pocket.

Your product sales have absolutely nothing to do with the reliability of 3.5mm connectors.


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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #38 on: October 10, 2011, 12:34:09 PM »
You're not going to get a returned product when someone loses 5-10 seconds of their recording because they've yanked the mini plug cable out while pulling their preamp out of their pocket.

Your product sales have absolutely nothing to do with the reliability of 3.5mm connectors.
Umm... I can't say I've ever managed this in almost 20 years of taping.  I've had a D7 that misfired once on a record.  I've had an analog D3 that I thought was going and it wasn't.  But never have I had a 1/8" connector ever come loose on me.  If you grab your gear the wrong way, that'll happen... find a better place to locate it than a pocket; have never done, and never will.

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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #39 on: October 10, 2011, 12:45:50 PM »
You're not going to get a returned product when someone loses 5-10 seconds of their recording because they've yanked the mini plug cable out while pulling their preamp out of their pocket.

Your product sales have absolutely nothing to do with the reliability of 3.5mm connectors.
Umm... I can't say I've ever managed this in almost 20 years of taping.  I've had a D7 that misfired once on a record.  I've had an analog D3 that I thought was going and it wasn't.  But never have I had a 1/8" connector ever come loose on me.  If you grab your gear the wrong way, that'll happen... find a better place to locate it than a pocket; have never done, and never will.

There's a first time for everything. If a locking connector wasn't a smart idea, we'd be using TRS instead of XLR on everything we do.

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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #40 on: October 11, 2011, 03:09:16 AM »
I'm with Mr Church on this one.  It is a no-brainer to simply tape cables to what ever the unit is they are plugged in to; be it a battery box or recorder.  There is nothing inherently wrong with a 3.5mm jack/socket.  Good quality connectors are fit for purpose, so long as the purpose is not doing a Daltrey and swinging the device round your head.  Even then, he uses the same "strain relief" - a roll of electrical tape!  Like Mr C says, avoid cheapo, poor quality - but that applies to everything discussed here.  Taping cables to boxes is simply an extension of placing gear in gear bags.  My M10's pouch strap broke the other night.  The reason it didn't hit the floor/disconnect was 2 inches of electrical tape fixing the B Box cable to the back plate. 

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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2011, 10:08:44 AM »
I'm with Mr Church on this one.  It is a no-brainer to simply tape cables to what ever the unit is they are plugged in to; be it a battery box or recorder.  There is nothing inherently wrong with a 3.5mm jack/socket.  Good quality connectors are fit for purpose, so long as the purpose is not doing a Daltrey and swinging the device round your head.  Even then, he uses the same "strain relief" - a roll of electrical tape!  Like Mr C says, avoid cheapo, poor quality - but that applies to everything discussed here.  Taping cables to boxes is simply an extension of placing gear in gear bags.  My M10's pouch strap broke the other night.  The reason it didn't hit the floor/disconnect was 2 inches of electrical tape fixing the B Box cable to the back plate.

I'm sorry.. are you guys really trying to argue that non-locking connectors are superior to locking connectors?  Because all hi and lo said was that locking connectors are superior.  I don't know how one can dispute that.

Having to tape things down is an extra step you only need because... you aren't using a locking connector.   ::)
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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #42 on: October 11, 2011, 12:52:13 PM »
I'm not arguing that.  I can fully appreciate the use of locking connectors.  I'm just saying in that close to 20-years of doing this I've never had a mic or deck unplug on me.  I know it can happen (and has happened to others) but I guess my delicate handling of my gear has been good to me has prevented this from happening to me.  And no, I don't tape anything down anywhere, either.

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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #43 on: October 12, 2011, 09:45:04 AM »

But to say that 3.5 mm is the worst connector for taping is misleading and untrue.

Right...  ::)

You're not going to get a returned product when someone loses 5-10 seconds of their recording because they've yanked the mini plug cable out while pulling their preamp out of their pocket.

Your product sales have absolutely nothing to do with the reliability of 3.5mm connectors.

First of all I never said my 3.5 mm connectors are better than a locking connector that would be moronic. What I did say is I use a quality connector that has a very low failure rate. And my connectors have EVERYTHING to do with my preamp sales. If they sucked I would never sell a preamp. I agree a locking connector is better but not the only way to connect audio. Companies like Sony, Roland, Teac ect agree, Until someone makes a cheap connector that is stereo that is the same size and locks it will always be a standard for small recording devices. Its all about size nobody makes a "affordable" locking connector that has the same size as a 3.5 mm jack NOBODY. Yeah I know about lemo I know about microdot ect... But again they are very expensive. If I my customers were willing to pay the difference I would love to use locking connectors but I cant justify $70 extra in parts for a lemo connector x 4 for my preamps. The 3.5 mm connector when you get the right one is very reliable and does not cause static issues with your recordings and does not get unplugged unless you tug at it. I dont want to argue but 2000 + preamps tell the whole story.

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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #44 on: October 12, 2011, 09:47:01 AM »
I'm with Mr Church on this one.  It is a no-brainer to simply tape cables to what ever the unit is they are plugged in to; be it a battery box or recorder.  There is nothing inherently wrong with a 3.5mm jack/socket.  Good quality connectors are fit for purpose, so long as the purpose is not doing a Daltrey and swinging the device round your head.  Even then, he uses the same "strain relief" - a roll of electrical tape!  Like Mr C says, avoid cheapo, poor quality - but that applies to everything discussed here.  Taping cables to boxes is simply an extension of placing gear in gear bags.  My M10's pouch strap broke the other night.  The reason it didn't hit the floor/disconnect was 2 inches of electrical tape fixing the B Box cable to the back plate.

I'm sorry.. are you guys really trying to argue that non-locking connectors are superior to locking connectors?  Because all hi and lo said was that locking connectors are superior.  I don't know how one can dispute that.

Having to tape things down is an extra step you only need because... you aren't using a locking connector.   ::)
Nobody is saying that :) That would be a silly argument. Its all about size the size of the 3.5 mm is hard to beat. Nothing is smaller or the same size in the $1 price range.
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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #45 on: October 12, 2011, 09:53:46 AM »
The 3.5 mm connector when you get the right one is very reliable and does not cause static issues with your recordings and does not get unplugged unless you tug at it. I dont want to argue but 2000 + preamps tell the whole story.

Exactly what he said.   I've used a right-angle 1/8" connector in the cable going from the battery box to my recording device for probably close to 10 years now (when I got back into the game after a 3-year hiatus) without issue.  When I had Chris build my 9100 and Ugly Battery Box, I asked for techflex on both with right angle connectors going to the deck (and a standard straight one from the preamp in the "standalone" 1/8" cable).  Zero issues (then again, I'm not pretending I'm Pete Townsend when I handle my gear, either).  :D

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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #46 on: October 12, 2011, 11:55:36 AM »

First of all I never said my 3.5 mm connectors are better than a locking connector that would be moronic. What I did say is I use a quality connector that has a very low failure rate. And my connectors have EVERYTHING to do with my preamp sales. If they sucked I would never sell a preamp. I agree a locking connector is better but not the only way to connect audio. Companies like Sony, Roland, Teac ect agree, Until someone makes a cheap connector that is stereo that is the same size and locks it will always be a standard for small recording devices. Its all about size nobody makes a "affordable" locking connector that has the same size as a 3.5 mm jack NOBODY. Yeah I know about lemo I know about microdot ect... But again they are very expensive. If I my customers were willing to pay the difference I would love to use locking connectors but I cant justify $70 extra in parts for a lemo connector x 4 for my preamps. The 3.5 mm connector when you get the right one is very reliable and does not cause static issues with your recordings and does not get unplugged unless you tug at it. I dont want to argue but 2000 + preamps tell the whole story.

Mini-xlr or Binder connectors are both excellent alternatives and mini-xlr is very much affordable. Both Sound Devices and Schoeps prefer these and those are companies I would trust far more than Teac, Roland, etc. It's the whole "if everybody jumped of a bridge..." logic.

Also, at no point have I discussed the quality of 3.5mm connectors used (I am sure you use quality components), merely that the connector design as a whole is not great for what we do. Failure rates are indeed low; if assembled with the proper strain relief, there is little risk of developing a short and of course not having pins means nothing can get get accidentally bent. However, none of this minimizes the risk of operator error and they are easy to accidentally become unplugged. The argument put forth in this thread that "in 20 years it's never happened to me" is about as defensible as the 'pull-out' method of contraception. It's just a matter of time if you do not address the risk at a fundamental level.

Quality Mini-xlr components can be had for relatively cheap... ~$2.50 per jack or plug from the right sources. Knowing that, it's fine to offer 3.5mm as a cost-saving alternative, but I would never recommend a 3.5mm TRS w/o first recommending a high-quality locking type connector.

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #47 on: October 12, 2011, 12:25:55 PM »

First of all I never said my 3.5 mm connectors are better than a locking connector that would be moronic. What I did say is I use a quality connector that has a very low failure rate. And my connectors have EVERYTHING to do with my preamp sales. If they sucked I would never sell a preamp. I agree a locking connector is better but not the only way to connect audio. Companies like Sony, Roland, Teac ect agree, Until someone makes a cheap connector that is stereo that is the same size and locks it will always be a standard for small recording devices. Its all about size nobody makes a "affordable" locking connector that has the same size as a 3.5 mm jack NOBODY. Yeah I know about lemo I know about microdot ect... But again they are very expensive. If I my customers were willing to pay the difference I would love to use locking connectors but I cant justify $70 extra in parts for a lemo connector x 4 for my preamps. The 3.5 mm connector when you get the right one is very reliable and does not cause static issues with your recordings and does not get unplugged unless you tug at it. I dont want to argue but 2000 + preamps tell the whole story.

Mini-xlr or Binder connectors are both excellent alternatives and mini-xlr is very much affordable. Both Sound Devices and Schoeps prefer these and those are companies I would trust far more than Teac, Roland, etc. It's the whole "if everybody jumped of a bridge..." logic.

Also, at no point have I discussed the quality of 3.5mm connectors used (I am sure you use quality components), merely that the connector design as a whole is not great for what we do. Failure rates are indeed low; if assembled with the proper strain relief, there is little risk of developing a short and of course not having pins means nothing can get get accidentally bent. However, none of this minimizes the risk of operator error and they are easy to accidentally become unplugged. The argument put forth in this thread that "in 20 years it's never happened to me" is about as defensible as the 'pull-out' method of contraception. It's just a matter of time if you do not address the risk at a fundamental level.

Quality Mini-xlr components can be had for relatively cheap... ~$2.50 per jack or plug from the right sources. Knowing that, it's fine to offer 3.5mm as a cost-saving alternative, but I would never recommend a 3.5mm TRS w/o first recommending a high-quality locking type connector.

Where can you get mini xlr connectors for $2.50 lol.... My cost and I am a switchcraft dealer is $8.50 a connector.
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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #48 on: October 12, 2011, 12:40:16 PM »
Where can you get mini xlr connectors for $2.50 lol.... My cost and I am a switchcraft dealer is $8.50 a connector.

I was going to ask the same as I need some and would love to save ~$5 a pop.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #49 on: October 12, 2011, 01:33:43 PM »
TA3F (in black too!!!) - $2.88
TA4F- $1.88
TA5F - $1.85

TB3M- $1.88
TB4M- $1.88

.... and on... and on...

You could even buy the all-black Redco mini-xlrs which are very good for $5. AFAIK, the quality on all of these is every bit as good as buying directly from Switchcraft. Our ts.com resident cable makers use them all the time with great success. I don't know if Jon is sourcing his from these eBay sellers as well, but I would imagine he is because the switchcraft prices are absolutely insane at an avg of $8-10 per unit.

I would gladly use any of these over a $1 3.5mm connector any day of the week.

edit: $1.88 lol!!!
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 01:35:15 PM by hi and lo »

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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #50 on: October 12, 2011, 02:10:55 PM »
Thanks for the links, I'll check those out.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #51 on: October 12, 2011, 02:27:45 PM »
The real problem is the mini-xlr, like the 3.5mm, are large.  They're tiny to solder, but they are physically large due to the way the strain relief and cable termination is packaged.

I like the tiny pre-molded 90 degree plastic pigtails a lot.  I think AT makes/sell them.  You'll see them on a lot of battery boxes, etc.  The cable is attached.  The other option is hacking down a connector and potting it in epoxy or hot glue.  You do lose some shielding that way.

Most off the shelf 90 degree 3.5mm connectors are Big.

At least mini-xlr's keep finger grease and dirt off the connectors.

Binder makes some really nice connectors.  They're still a bit pricey. And they're not that small.

I love stubbie XLRs.  I haven't tried to make stubbie mini-XLRs YET.  But at the $1/each I'm paying, it's worth a shot.

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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #52 on: October 12, 2011, 02:37:07 PM »
The real problem is the mini-xlr, like the 3.5mm, are large.  They're tiny to solder, but they are physically large due to the way the strain relief and cable termination is packaged.

I like the tiny pre-molded 90 degree plastic pigtails a lot.  I think AT makes/sell them.  You'll see them on a lot of battery boxes, etc.  The cable is attached.  The other option is hacking down a connector and potting it in epoxy or hot glue.  You do lose some shielding that way.

Most off the shelf 90 degree 3.5mm connectors are Big.

At least mini-xlr's keep finger grease and dirt off the connectors.

Binder makes some really nice connectors.  They're still a bit pricey. And they're not that small.

I love stubbie XLRs.  I haven't tried to make stubbie mini-XLRs YET.  But at the $1/each I'm paying, it's worth a shot.

Holy crap that's cheap I just ordered a few samples.
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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #53 on: October 12, 2011, 02:43:57 PM »
I completely agree 11,

I wish someone made affordable, compact right angle mini-xlr plugs.

I like the tiny pre-molded 90 degree plastic pigtails a lot.  I think AT makes/sell them.  You'll see them on a lot of battery boxes, etc.  The cable is attached. 
 

Wait, are you talking about a premolded right angle mini-xlr there? I first assumed you were referring to 3.5mm TRS.  I buy those as premolded right-angle plugs with cable attached (or cut a stock molded plug cable in half) for a far more compact 3.5mm connector and reduced stress on the jack.  The Neutrik RA plugs stick out farther and the body and strain relief are much longer after the bend, putting a large lever-arm on the jack.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 02:47:09 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #54 on: October 12, 2011, 02:55:36 PM »

The Neutrik RA plugs stick out farther and the body and strain relief are much longer after the bend, putting a large lever-arm on the jack.

I agree with this.. definitely the downside of an otherwise very nice connector.

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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #55 on: October 12, 2011, 03:34:19 PM »
I like the tiny pre-molded 90 degree plastic pigtails a lot.  I think AT makes/sell them.  You'll see them on a lot of battery boxes, etc.  The cable is attached. 
 

Wait, are you talking about a premolded right angle mini-xlr there? I first assumed you were referring to 3.5mm TRS.

Yep, that's what I'm talking about, 3.5mm trs.

Fwiw, I've placed a couple orders for mini-xlr's from this seller, rdana  His service has been really excellent and he'll ship by first class mail, etc.  Selection looks spotty right now, but you might ask if anyone is looking.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/rdana/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=

Maybe we should start a cable thread ;)

 

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