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Author Topic: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!  (Read 14217 times)

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Offline live2cd

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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2011, 05:36:38 PM »
Maybe I should get my DPA 4060s re-terminated to the original CS battery box then? Im still unsure of why Chris recommended to do it this way, as my original setup was great as it was. He did say the CS battery box has had faulty wiring and a lot of people have complained about that. Maybe he wanted me to steer clear of problems that could have arose. But yeah, if Im mainly taping loud rock bands in small clubs (which is what my omnis are for -- I bought his CA-14's for arenas and theaters), Im going to have problems if this happens when I bring the gain all the way down.
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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2011, 06:08:31 PM »
The 9200 is likely to work fine if you set it correctly, and gives you the flexibility for recording quiet material.  Plus it sounds like you plan to use it with your CA-14s as well, which are probably less sensitive than the 4060s and so can use more gain.  If you always record loud material, then maybe ask Chris about exchanging the 9200 for one of his CA-UGLY-BB battery boxes, which are simple and reliable.  They are well built and inexpensive, so you might want both a battery box and the preamp, to choose between depending on the situation.

If using the 9200, leave the R-09 at 13 and adjust the preamp. 
Using a battery box, you'll adjust gain as needed on the recorder.

In either case, you will get distortion if you have to set the R-09 below 8 to keep it from clipping.
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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2011, 09:13:34 PM »
The 9200 is likely to work fine if you set it correctly, and gives you the flexibility for recording quiet material.  Plus it sounds like you plan to use it with your CA-14s as well, which are probably less sensitive than the 4060s and so can use more gain.  If you always record loud material, then maybe ask Chris about exchanging the 9200 for one of his CA-UGLY-BB battery boxes, which are simple and reliable.  They are well built and inexpensive, so you might want both a battery box and the preamp, to choose between depending on the situation.

If using the 9200, leave the R-09 at 13 and adjust the preamp. 
Using a battery box, you'll adjust gain as needed on the recorder.

In either case, you will get distortion if you have to set the R-09 below 8 to keep it from clipping.
Good call.  I'll +1 this.  I have both a 9100 and a CA-UBB for this reason.  Sometimes I'm in situations where I need to gain up and like the flexibility of using the battery box to do so and then the deck if I absolutely have to.   I also agree in the "less is more" situation when in louder situations; it makes life so-much easier.

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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2011, 10:03:17 PM »
I also have the HEB 4061s and havent had any wiring issues with the battery box and ive been using it for 6 years. Also have the  CSBs with bbox without any wiring issues in use for 8 years.You dont need the preamp imo.

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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2011, 10:20:39 PM »
Sell me the 9200 ;)
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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2011, 01:17:14 AM »
I have a somewhat related question to this thread.  I run 4061's > 9100 > M10 usually.  I have this setup dialed in for the most part.

I have a CA-UBB battery box and am thinking of putting this in the chain instead of the 9100. 

My question is, when using just a battery box would I typically go Mic In or Line In?  Plug In Power on or off?

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Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2011, 01:40:14 AM »
I have a somewhat related question to this thread.  I run 4061's > 9100 > M10 usually.  I have this setup dialed in for the most part.

I have a CA-UBB battery box and am thinking of putting this in the chain instead of the 9100. 

My question is, when using just a battery box would I typically go Mic In or Line In?  Plug In Power on or off?

TIA

PIP OFF. I have run CA14 Cards>SP BB>MIC-IN>M10, and it was for the ragbirds FOB/DFC :) So I guess what I'm saying is it depends on how loud the source is ;)
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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2011, 09:47:36 AM »
I guess I am unfamiliar w/ what "unity" gain is.

Unity gain, if I understand it correctly, is the record level setting on your recorder where its internal preamp is neither boosting the signal nor attenuating it.

My 9100 preamp is at  unity around 11:00 on the knob, IIRC. Below that you are attenuating, above it you are adding gain, and at 11:00 it's essentially a battery box. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.
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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2011, 11:31:36 AM »
I guess I am unfamiliar w/ what "unity" gain is.

Unity gain, if I understand it correctly, is the record level setting on your recorder where its internal preamp is neither boosting the signal nor attenuating it.

My 9100 preamp is at  unity around 11:00 on the knob, IIRC. Below that you are attenuating, above it you are adding gain, and at 11:00 it's essentially a battery box. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

This is essentially correct.  Although the concept of unity gain is somewhat blurry with these all-in-one units.

unity gain = no change in signal strength
Amplify/attenuate signal = positive/negative gain

'Unity gain' is more strait-forward when refering to a piece of gear that is in the middle of a signal chain.  In that case you can measure the signal voltage going in and coming out. The gain setting on the device that makes those values equal is the unity gain setting.  This is important with outboard studio gear where lots of different stuff may be chained together.  Optimizing the signal levels through the entire signal chain is called 'gain staging'.

In these all-in-one devices the end result is a digital file.  We can't really measure gain between the internal stages of the device, nor would we need to since the gain staging is done by the manufacturer as an integral part of the design.

Instead we look for the 'sweet spot' that is the comfortable zone between the extremes of noise at one end and distortion at the other.  We tend to call that unity gain around here, but 'sweet spot' is more acurate since there is no way of knowing if that is really unity or not.  Something like unity gain applies more clearly to some all-in-one machines which have settings referencing specific input levels for their line inputs. 


The concept of unity gain is simple to apply to external devices such as preamps though.  A battery box is a 'unity gain' device since it doesn't change the voltage of the signal going in an out (it only provides power to the mics), unless it has built in pads or filters, in which case it would decrease signal level if those are switched in.  In that case it would no longer be a unity gain device but would be applying 'negative gain'.  An adjustable gain preamp has a range of gain available, and that range is depends on the design.  Some always amplify (they always increase gain by some variable amount), some have a range that starts at unity (they have zero gain at the lowest setting), and others may attenuate or even completely mute the signal at the lowest setting (they can have negative gain or positive gain).  With a preamp, the gain can be measured across the device and the unity or zero-gain point can be determined... or you can just ask the manufacturer.

So to bring the discussion full circle, the 9200 can probably be set for unity gain, where it does not amplify the signal and essentially only provides power to the mics like a battery box.  Chris Church can confirm that for you.
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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2011, 11:36:33 AM »
I wouldn't run a pre with the 4060's. BB only or power the mics via the power from the deck if feasible. (not sure on the R09)
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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2011, 12:02:43 PM »
I wouldn't run a pre with the 4060's. BB only or power the mics via the power from the deck if feasible. (not sure on the R09)

It's not. Outboard power required for the DPAs
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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2011, 01:08:25 PM »
I'm going to rephrase what several people have said, hoping it may benefit someone when it's explained this way.

- If the signal coming into the R09 is so hot that you need to turn it down below 8 to avoid clipping, then the signal is too hot and the R09 can't deal with it.
- If you want to make your R09 really happy, set your R09 at something like 15 and then adjust your your preamp so it puts out a signal which makes the R09 happy.
- If you have the preamp all the way down and it's still too hot, you don't need a preamp, a battery box is fine.
- With a battery box, if you run line-in to the R09 and need to crank the gain to 30 and it's still not enough, switch to "mic in" on the R09.

As a point of reference, I've run DPA4061's > ST9100 > line-in R09 at a loud show with the R09 mid-range and the ST9100 at mid-range which tells me the ST9100 is only providing a little gain, and I could probably use a battery box and line-in.  This makes me think he will end up running 4060's/battbox/line in.  Wasn't that what everyone did before Church preamps were common?  Mics > batt box > line in to D8 or mini-disk?  I've run AT853's or CSB's > battbox > line in R09, it works fine.
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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2011, 02:13:38 PM »
I have a somewhat related question to this thread.  I run 4061's > 9100 > M10 usually.  I have this setup dialed in for the most part.

I have a CA-UBB battery box and am thinking of putting this in the chain instead of the 9100. 

My question is, when using just a battery box would I typically go Mic In or Line In?  Plug In Power on or off?

TIA

PIP OFF. I have run CA14 Cards>SP BB>MIC-IN>M10, and it was for the ragbirds FOB/DFC :) So I guess what I'm saying is it depends on how loud the source is ;)

If you're using a battery box, you definitely want plug-in power off.  It's unnecessary as the BB is what's powering the mics.  FWIW, the "line-in" inputs don't have PIP, that's just on the "mic-in".  Since the "line-in" input also tends to have less coloration than the "mic-in", that's the preferable input to use unless you need more gain.  If you do, use the "mic-in".

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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2011, 02:33:25 PM »
Maybe I should get my DPA 4060s re-terminated to the original CS battery box then? Im still unsure of why Chris recommended to do it this way, as my original setup was great as it was. He did say the CS battery box has had faulty wiring and a lot of people have complained about that. Maybe he wanted me to steer clear of problems that could have arose.

Going back to this... some general thoughts about your termination options.

It's true the Coresound battery boxes can be prone to failure. I consider it poor design to not have reinforced the mini-xlr jack with epoxy or some type of glue. Excessive force on the mini-xlr plug when connected can certainly create enough pressure to break the solder joints. FWIW, I've repaired or modified well over a dozen CSB or HEB boxes... the capacitor value choice in the HEB's was particularly awful for roll-off.

With that said, I would strongly disagree with any recommendation to terminate your mics an 1/8" stereo mini plug. There is no worse connector for what we do! Stereo mini plugs are just begging to become accidentally disconnected and develop shorts rather easily. The standard locking 4-pin mini-xlr that comes with the HEB's is actually a very nice design and will be infinitely more reliable in the long-run even if the battery box jack is not reinforced. The only thing I don't like about it is the pigtail design, but it's something you learn to live with. I would personally prefer a dedicated mini-xlr output so that you could use a variety of breakout cables dependent on the situation.

If you really want to improve your rig, my advise is to get a Tinybox. Jon can build you one with a 6-pin locking mini-xlr that provides both input and out along with a dedicated 1/8" stereo out. Gain settings of 0-10-20 would have you covered in virtually any situation with the 4060s.


Offline fmaderjr

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Re: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2011, 08:54:50 PM »
I wouldn't run a pre with the 4060's. BB only or power the mics via the power from the deck if feasible. (not sure on the R09)

It's not recommended to power 4060's (or 4061's) with any small recorder's plug in power. In my experience, the Marantz PMD-620  will do it fine with its 4.6 volts PIP, but that's still not as much as recommended by the manufacturer. It should definitely not be attempted with recorders with lesser PIP (which is basically all of them except for the Micro Crappers).
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