Topic: HEB DPA4060 > CA-9200 > EDRIOL R09 came out distorted... help!

[live2cd]

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/30779496/fuel2011-09-26-sample.mp3

(now i emailed Chris Church on this too...)

tonight for the first time i used my HEB DPA4060 omnis > 9200 preamp > edirol...  (chris modded my DPA's to work with his preamp)

i made SURE my levels were low enough. i made sure it did not go over 12 on the edirol's screen ....
my edirol's input was at 3.

im not sure what i did wrong. i made 100% sure i was not spiking and the recording sounds all distorted. should i have kept the 9200 volume lower? i had it at about 35/40% turned on...  im at a loss, my core sound filter box never produced results like this

Ive heard the 9200 is louder than the 9100...  did I opt for the wrong pre-amp? I did get the CA-14's as well and when I run those into the 9200 there has yet to be a problem.
Any help would be appreciated. guess i gotta go find another band to tape and  use trial error. maybe someone here uses this setup can chime in!

-dewey

[hi and lo]

The original R-09? Without question you overloaded it's line input. This is fairly easy to do and you should never run the R-09 below 8. 12-18 would be even better, although I can't remember what unity is.

4060's are pretty hot and if you are recording loud sources all you really need is a battery box. I don't know what the minimum gain of the 9200 is, but you're going to need to dial it back quite a bit.

[live2cd]

Yes, the original R09.
Ive been recording with the CS battery box going back to 2005 with these and have NEVER had a problem. (I tape loud rock shows all the time)... and this was my first problem.

[illconditioned]

Was that mic or line input on the Edirol?

You probably overloaded the *output* on the preamp.  Level #3/30, either mic or line input requires a very hot signal.

Instead, you should set the Edirol input level first.  Set it to something like 15/30 (mic input) or 20/30 (line input).  This is the a reasonable level, like a consumer line level signal.  Then turn up the preamp gain so that the levels are just over 12dB.

Oh yeah, you don't really need a preamp here.  The 4060's are hot mics, so a battery box directly into the Edirol (mic in, plug in power off) is the best.  The preamp won't hurt anything, but the fewer components in the chain, the better.  Simpler to carry and power too.

  Richard

[live2cd]

line input....

I knew the 4060s were HOT going in, thats why Im not sure why Chris wanted to mod them with the 9200, but I thought it might be best. Perhaps I should re-mod them back w/ the Core Sound battery box? But, ive heard bad things about the wiring in those.

[illconditioned]

line input....

I knew the 4060s were HOT going in, thats why Im not sure why Chris wanted to mod them with the 9200, but I thought it might be best. Perhaps I should re-mod them back w/ the Core Sound battery box? But, ive heard bad things about the wiring in those.

Try turning the gain on the 9200 to the lowest level you can, make up the gain on the Edirol.  That will probably work.

  Richard

[live2cd]

ok will do. i did have the gain up 1 notch on the CA-9200, I forgot to mention that. I could bring it down to the lowest.

[fmaderjr]

The original R-09? Without question you overloaded it's line input. This is fairly easy to do and you should never run the R-09 below 8. 12-18 would be even better, although I can't remember what unity is.

Unity gain is a bit in question, but many think it is 13 (some say as much as 18). I would set the R-09 to 13 and adjust your levels with the CA-9200. Experiment to see if the CA-9200 should be set to 0 (like a battery box) or maybe 10 dB in order to get proper levels on the R-09. If the R-09 is set to 13 and you are getting proper levels peaking below 0 dB there will be no issues with distortion.

[adrianf74]

Unity gain is a bit in question, but many think it is 13 (some say as much as 18). I would set the R-09 to 13 and adjust your levels with the CA-9200. Experiment to see if the CA-9200 should be set to 0 (like a battery box) or maybe 10 dB in order to get proper levels on the R-09. If the R-09 is set to 13 and you are getting proper levels peaking below 0 dB there will be no issues with distortion.

Line Level input is 13 on the original R09 (I had one and never ran into issues with either my CMC-8's, CA-14's or CAFS).  I have a feeling the CA-9200 was pumping out too hot a level (I use a 9100).  As fmadejr suggests, try setting the 9200 to as close to "0" gain as possible and then you can either adjust the levels marginally on the deck or boost the gain slightly on the 9200.  If I'm not mistaken, the 9200 can boost the hell out of a signal so that might've been the issue.

[acidjack]

I have a 9200 and run it with the 4061s (which are far less hot/sensitive, hence why I use them). 

Also worth noting is that if yours is like mine it has the "click" gain knobs (big steps in gain) plus the "variable" knob (the one that turns it on).

To avoid overloading it, I've found the best method is (1) set deck to "Unity" gain or something (on my M10, 5 or 6), (2) turn the "variable" knob ALL THE WAY UP but leave the "click" knob as low as possible.  Only increase steps on the "click" knob if you aren't getting good levels on the the prior "click" setting.  That is, only use the variable if for some reason you like carefully calibrating levels on your recorder. Since your recorder is digital, I don't see much reason to do that, but....

[fmaderjr]

Line Level input is 13 on the original R09 (I had one and never ran into issues with either my CMC-8's, CA-14's or CAFS).  I have a feeling the CA-9200 was pumping out too hot a level (I use a 9100).  As fmadejr suggests, try setting the 9200 to as close to "0" gain as possible and then you can either adjust the levels marginally on the deck or boost the gain slightly on the 9200.  If I'm not mistaken, the 9200 can boost the hell out of a signal so that might've been the issue.

True, but if the R-09 had been set to unity gain, most likely the R-09's meter would have been going over 0 dB if the 9200 was providing too much gain (providing an easy way to tell how much gain you can set the 9200 to provide). It may be that at a loud show the 9200 could be set to 10 or 15 without going over 0 DB. Since live2CD originally had the R-09 set all the way down to 3, it could be that the 9200 was set to 30 0r 40.

[live2cd]

I guess I am unfamiliar w/ what "unity" gain is.

Does this mean I leave the Edirol at 0 on the input? I think my main issue was using the click knob on the 9200 up 1. next time i will leave it at the lowest and go from there ...

i will say this tho, next time i run the 4060s to the 9200 im not taping a band i care about!

[Gutbucket]

I guess I am unfamiliar w/ what "unity" gain is.

Does this mean I leave the Edirol at 0 on the input?

NO, going too low on the R-09 input setting is the problem.  Never try to use the R-09 at an input level setting below 8.  Set it at 13 and leave it there (I used to shoot for 15 and adjust mine from about 10-20 without worrying anything about it).  Then start with the 9200 at it's lowest setting and add gain with the 9200 until you get good levels on the R-09 display.  If the levels are too hot even with the 9200 set as low as it will go*, then reduce the R-09 input setting from 13 down to 8, BUT DON'T GO ANY LOWER.

*I'm not familiar with how the 9200 gain controls work.  This assumes the lowest setting on the 9200 doesn't mute the input as some other preamps do.  If it does, then start with the lowest setting that still provides signal.  .

[hi and lo]

Gutbucket has it precisely right. Follow his workflow and you should be ok.

With that said, I question the need for using the preamp at all. If the source material is loud enough, which it sounds like most of what your record is, the value added by the preamp is anywhere from questionable to downright risky.

A battery box is about as transparent as it gets so if the mics+bbox alone provides enough signal, you're going to have to 150% confident that any 'coloration' imparted by the preamp is desirable. Transformer based preamps can, by popular opinion, impart some nice warmth or color to the recording, but otherwise it's mostly helpful to think of a preamp as something that simply amplifies the source signal as transparently as possible for no other reason that to reach acceptable recording levels.

All too often I see questionable, imo, advise that adding a preamp might improve one's recording. If the mics are already properly powered and reach acceptable recording levels, adding a preamp to the signal chain starts is really just encroaching upon 'snake oil' territory.

[Gutbucket]

I can confirm that 4060s shouldn't need any added gain for loud music and a battery box should do fine.  An external preamp can be useful for quiet material, but for loud stuff a simple battery box works fine and simplifies things.  Keep it simple and there is less to go wrong.