Topic: Audience mic question (as in mic for applause, etc)

[cybergaloot]

I've been recording by pulling the individual channels of the soundboard to another console and mixing that to stereo for recording. I also add in a couple of ambient mics at stage lip and a hyper pointed at the audience for applause. That mic is on the same plane as the stage lip but up beside of the PA main speakers using it to block sound coming from the stage. I use it to bring the applause level up so that it doesn't sound like it is from a block away.

The problem is that if I get the level up to where it needs to be, it adds reverberation to the mix which is most apparent on the main vocals. Right now I'm riding the fader for that mic, normally keeping it just below the level where the reverberation is obvious and boosting it when the song ends. This can't be the best way to do things though I now notice it on some commercial live recordings. I have a Behringer Composer Pro compressor and wondered if I might be able to use it somehow with its "side chain" to control that channel so that it increases the gain when people are actually applauding or more likely, lowering the gain when they are not. Any suggestions?

[stevetoney]

I can't add anything technical.  While audience noise is obviously important for the ambiance of a live recording, my feeling is that if the applause fades between tracks are not transparent, it's distracting and annoying.  The LivePhish circa 2009 recordings are an example and there were sooo many people that commented about how much they hated the mixing of those SBDs.  Although that was only one of the reasons, it was mentioned alot.  Thankfully, Phish has a new guy mixing the LivePhish stuff since then.

[page]

I have a Behringer Composer Pro compressor and wondered if I might be able to use it somehow with its "side chain" to control that channel so that it increases the gain when people are actually applauding or more likely, lowering the gain when they are not. Any suggestions?

Have you tried using an gate on your compressor with a high threshold and a low slope? It sounds like what you're after as you could really kill the quiet parts, and have it curve back up as the crowd swells to full blast as they scream at the end of a song.

Gate
The Gate section (commonly referred to as a gate/expander) affects the lowest level signals – those signals BELOW its threshold (as opposed to the compressor and limiter which work on signals above their thresholds).

There are a few main uses of the Gate:
1) Just as you could add more volume by compressing the lower signals and bringing up the overall gain of the output of the compressor, you can also add more volume (or at least fullness and body) by bringing up just the softest parts of the mix. This is done with the Gate and is called expansion. Since you also have a compressor and limiter above the Gate/expander section, you could choose to leave the peaks untouched (ratio of 1 for the compressor and limiter) or choose to also soften the peaks while also bringing up the lows (as shown in the picture below). To achieve this “upward compression,” set the Gate ratio less than 1.0.
2) You can use a Gate as, well, a noise gate, where any signals that are below the Threshold are effectively turned down completely. Back to our engineer analogy, the expander tells the engineer “when the level is BELOW the Threshold, turn it DOWN as indicated by the Ratio.
3) As a gate, use a high Ratio (8 to 10 or so) and set the Threshold down at the point of the noise floor.
4) If necessary, you can use the Gate/expander as an “uncompressor” to expand an overly compressed signal. Of course, it’s better not too over-compress to begin with, but sometimes you have a mix that has already been destructively compressed. As an “uncompressor,” try Thresholds around –20 to –30 to start and a ratio of 1.1 to 2.0 (with higher ratios providing more “uncompression”).

source: Izotope's Ozone mastering help doc (page 50)

[cybergaloot]

I don't want it to sound unnatural. In fact, that's what I'm trying to fix. I've done a little web searching since I posted this and haven't found the answer I'm looking for, if one even exists. Essentially I'm trying to figure out a way to automatically increase the gain on a mic (soon to be a pair) when applause is detected but not when the band is playing. In other words, it has to detect a certain type of sound. The side chain function, if I understand it correctly, allows the compressor I have to work based on a different signal than the one it is controlling. It also has an expander/gate function but I don't know if the side chain will control that.

I wonder if reversing the polarity on the mic would help. Maybe that way it would be canceled by the sound from the stage until it gets quieter and then pickup the applause. I dunno.

[cybergaloot]

I should say that I'm recording in a small blues club (cap. 120 max). I need to keep in mind when a singer may solo a capella or a guitarist may drop dramatically to a very quiet level (happens quite often). In other words, not everything is going to be blasting from the stage at 120db. Its a wrinkle in the problem that may keep me riding the fader. I'm going to try the reverse polarity because it seems Hosa makes a cheap adapter for that purpose. If it doesn't work I'll only be out a few bucks.

[Gutbucket]

I understand the desire.  Less than optimal 'crowd liveness and feel' is something that frequently bothers me and distracts from what may otherwise be a great live recording. When mixing my surround recordings to stereo, I like to ride the surround channel between songs to get more crowd excitement vibe.

Walter, I think your inital thought on using the side chain of the compressor is worth exploring.  You'll be 'ducking' the audience feed by modulating its level with the level of your PA feed (or maybe just the vocal and the other parts that get over reverberant).  Think of the effect when radio announcers talk over the music and the music automatically reduces level when they speak, but probably a bit slower acting.  You'd do that by feeding the audience mic though the main channel of the compressor/limiter and the PA feed into it's side-chain.  Here's the Wikipedia entry for audio ducking- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ducking. The trick will be getting the settings correct so it doesn't pump, but acts more like a volume leveler, allowing the audience feed to rise in level when the PA feed drops below the threshold, and gently lowering it again once the PA level rises.  You'll want a relatively low threshold, a high compression ratio to reduce the level enough, a longer than shorter attack time, and a long release time.

[cybergaloot]

Thanks Lee, I think it will be tricky and possibly wont always work. Pumping is definitely something I don't want! The difference between the audience mic not causing a hollow sound and getting the level up enough to make it sound like the audience is at least in the same room as the band is about 10db. Other than this issue and the obvious one of the hassle of mixing to stereo on the fly, I have been getting some really great recordings this way.

[F.O.Bean]

what if you tried an omni instead of a hyper

[bryonsos]

what if you tried an omni instead of a hyper

x2 Plus, it may be better to get it away from the stage, maybe with you at your console?

[cybergaloot]

I've tried a card but not an omni. Moving it away from the plane the mains are on will probably just make the problem worse. And actually the soundboard is next to the band and I'm on the other side of it. I'll see if I can find a picture.

[cybergaloot]

Board on left, mic hidden behind speaker on the right. The board I use is just to the left of the main board.

[cybergaloot]

My rig

[Gutbucket]

A pretty much standard setup for adding crowd sound is two cardioids at the outside edges of the stage, facing away from the stage and towards the audience.  Substituting hypers could be a good option if the PA is closer to the reduced sensitivity regions of the hyper pattern and you aren't riding the fader.. or if that's just what you happen to have on-hand.  But your problem is the quality of reverberant sound of the PA when the aud mics are up in level, so in combination with auto-ducking or your manual fader riding which lowers the level of the aud mics during the music, you might instead try intentionally getting more direct PA sound into your audience mic(s) if doing so makes the PA less 'overly reverberant sounding'.  So the omni suggestion or repositioning your directional mic to get more PA may be good advice.  In that case the automatic ducking or manual fader riding adjusts both the level of crowd sound and the clear & direct sound picked up from the PA as well, instead of turning up the room sound with too much PA reverberance.  But that only works if you can get a clean PA vocal sound with the aud mic level up as much as you need it between songs.

Really this is two seperate issues. One is the over reverberance of the PA when the aud feed is up in level, the other is semi-automating the fader riding.  You'll probably get the best results from optimizing both seperately.  You might be able to reduce the reverberant PA effect with careful ducking settings, but that will be trickier to avoid 'pumping'.  I realize I'm contradicting myself somewhat by initally suggesting ducking as the solution to your reverberance problem, and that might work, but on thinking it through, I think this likely is a better approach.

If you can get the reverberance taken care of with mic pattern and position, audible pumping of the applause in the ducking setup should be pretty easy to eliminate by using appropriate attack and release times.  Set your compression ratio to achieve that -10dB or so of gain reduction above the side-chain threshold or whatever amount works when manually riding the fader and tweak the treshold point and attack/release times to achieve a smooth fade-in and out of the applause.  Using it to cut the excess vocal reverbrance is tricker, because you'll need careful settings that act fast enough to lower the level as soon as the vocal cuts in, but doesn't 'pump' the audience sound.

[Gutbucket]

Looks like the Legendary Joint Chiefs in your top photo, no?

..keeping the legend of Otis Redding alive.

[cybergaloot]

Omni's would be easy enough to try, I've got spares. Heck, one thing I read online was to try plain old Shure SM-57's (Cards, I know). I went with Hypers based on something I read by Bruce Barrett in his "Recording Music on Location" book and experiences I had using hypers back when I was recording from back in the audience (like most tapers do).

Yep, that's the JC's. I saw Eugene do a flying split right over the top of Alex Leary's LSD2, just missing it by an inch or so. I though I was going to have to scrape the normally reserved Alex off the floor.

[SmokinJoe]

Good timing on this thread.  I've been wondering the same thing, although I'm multitrack recording and mixing in post, so I do the level riding at home in post.

I've seen lots of bigger bands using shotgun mics very near the stacks pointed outward, and I believe they generally use inverted phase.  In particular Allman Brothers, Gov't Mule etc, who will be selling CDs after the show, or muletracks, etc.  I assume when the music is blaring they pick up mostly stacks, when it's not they pick up crowd. I was going to try this a couple of weeks ago at a good sized stage, but I didn't have the extra tracks.

And reverse polarity is just a XLR cable with pins (2&3??) swapped on one end.

Another issue becomes "the nature of the audience noise".  If there is some awesome solo and the crowd goes wild, I'll pump that up a little even though the music is already blasting.  If the band goes into a 60 second tuning/swap instruments break between songs, there is probably cheering at the end of the song, then it becomes undersirable background chatter as people get bored.  We want the former, not the latter.  All of this is hard to automate, and suggests that level riding is inevitable.

[cybergaloot]

Thanks for the input!

A Hosa GXX-195 will reverse the polarity without modifying a cable. Pretty cheap on eBay and through some of the usual outlets.

I have the same issue of not having enough channels right now. I plan on getting an Allen & Heath ZED-22fx after the holidays which will fix that for most of what I do. It runs about $800. The Zed-24 is about $100 cheaper but has no effects. Right now I sometimes add a touch of reverb to the vocals on occasion if they sound too dry. The way you are doing it, you could deal with that in post. Both of those boards have USB out (stereo only) and get great reviews. Later I'm looking at one of the JoeCo recorders.

I agree that there is probably no way to totally automate it but it would be nice to leave the rig on autopilot while I socialize on occasion. Right now I usually stay at the console for the first set and leave it on autopilot for the second. That is esp. true on Saturdays because our radio broadcast comes off my board. The best compliment I got on that radio broadcast was from a cop who called the club. He was hauling a guy to jail and had the station on and when he looked in the rearview mirror the guy was bopping his head to the music. Hey, if I can make it sound good enough for somebody to forget they are in big trouble, I've done a good job!

[Gutbucket]

The best compliment I got on that radio broadcast was from a cop who called the club. He was hauling a guy to jail and had the station on and when he looked in the rearview mirror the guy was bopping his head to the music. Hey, if I can make it sound good enough for somebody to forget they are in big trouble, I've done a good job!

Nice!

Is the radio broadcast internet streamed? I'd like to check it out sometime.

[kcmule]

A Hosa GXX-195 will reverse the polarity without modifying a cable.

Can't you just invert the phase on the console for the ambient channel,
Or am I missing something?

[cybergaloot]

A Hosa GXX-195 will reverse the polarity without modifying a cable.

Can't you just invert the phase on the console for the ambient channel,
Or am I missing something?

Not all boards have an invert switch, esp. cheap ones like the Yamaha I'm currently using.

[cybergaloot]

The best compliment I got on that radio broadcast was from a cop who called the club. He was hauling a guy to jail and had the station on and when he looked in the rearview mirror the guy was bopping his head to the music. Hey, if I can make it sound good enough for somebody to forget they are in big trouble, I've done a good job!

Nice!

Is the radio broadcast internet streamed? I'd like to check it out sometime.

Yep! HANK 99.9 FM or http://www.999hank.fm/ streamed starting at about 10 PM EST. Next Sat. its Col Bruce Hampton & the Pharoah Gummit (the way he heard Federal Government pronounced). The stream is MP3. Their normal broadcast is 80's pop. You can see who is coming up at http://www.bradfordvilleblues.com/  BTW, I get NO soundcheck so it usually takes me a song or two get it dialed in and since its all on the fly, sometimes they throw me a curve in mid-stream. Occasionally we get some streaming problems thanks to Comcast.

[Gutbucket]

the Pharoah Gummit (the way he heard Federal Government pronounced)

Heh, I was wondering during Magfest what inpired that name.

[SmokinJoe]

I can envision a software algorithm smart enough to do it pretty well... given
(a) the amplitude of the applause mics,
(b) the amplitude of the main mix,
(c) some timers and constants, and maybe
(d) the occasional user intervention... if band goes into a quiet solo, software might think it's the end of a song so user hits the AUD MUTE button.

That would probably mean running 4 track into a computer and 2 track output.  I've never written anything like this, but for people who knows how to write plugins, it's probably not insurmountable.

[cybergaloot]

I've only done a short search to see if any solutions are out there. I did read that some broadcast audio engineers actually use a foot switch. A computer with the right software and a fast enough interface (zero latency monitoring) would probably be the best solution.

[rastasean]

Joe, do you have any recordings of your multitracks on LMA/torrent?

Walter, how do you stream your audio to radio station with the analog board?
That looks like a tiny room so it doesn't look like it would take much of a rowdy crowd to have TOO much crowd noise.

For DVD/CD recordings I've been to, the club has space omnis on stage pointing to the crowd. No idea if they just set the levels or are constantly adjusting them.  How often are you broadcasting live, every second saturday of the month?

[cybergaloot]

The radio station provided a box similar this: http://bswusa.com/Codecs-BARIX-INSTREAMER100-P1048.aspx It converts the analog signal to MP3 and streams it. Ours doesn't have the SP/dif inputs. We send the streamed signal to the station via Comcast and they stream it out from there using a service provider. We broadcast the first set almost every Saturday with the exceptions being like Dec 24th when the club will be closed and in the past on a couple of other occasions. We broadcast the first set usually in it entirety.

You would be surprised how far away the audience sounds even in a small club like this. Its not because they are far away, its the room acoustics.  I run two mics at stage lip for ambient and usually run them omni but to keep from messing with the sight lines and to protect my mics they aren't higher than the monitors. That also keeps me from picking up the monitors. I can't stress how different the monitors sound from what the audience hears. The sound in the monitors is tailored to what the musicians need to take cues from. For example, sometimes the bass player only wants the kick drum. I try to avoid picking them up because they will mess up the sound.

I've done a bit more reading here and there on the web and so far most folks think a compressor on the audience mic channel(s) is the way to go but not the whole solution. I'm finding the most useful responses coming from people in the broadcast industry, live TV audio engineers mostly.

[cybergaloot]

I got shot down for recording last night (a rarity) so I didn't get to try anything. I probably wont get to try anything more than using an omni instead of the hyper tonight but I have some mic signal inverters coming so next weekend I'll be able to try that.

[capnhook]

I got shot down for recording last night (a rarity) so I didn't get to try anything. I probably wont get to try anything more than using an omni instead of the hyper tonight but I have some mic signal inverters coming so next weekend I'll be able to try that.

I'll try to be a good audience member tonight..!

[Gutbucket]

11:20 heading over to ride the stream..

[cybergaloot]

I got shot down for recording last night (a rarity) so I didn't get to try anything. I probably wont get to try anything more than using an omni instead of the hyper tonight but I have some mic signal inverters coming so next weekend I'll be able to try that.

I'll try to be a good audience member tonight..!

You were!

[cybergaloot]

11:20 heading over to ride the stream..

I has some problems getting the mix dialed in at first. The first couple of songs were rough as a result. I did try using a Studio Project C4 omni as the audience mic and liked the results event though I still had to ride the fader some. I'll have to listen to the recording to be sure though. Good show by Col Bruce! Next week's broadcast will be the Mosier Brothers.

[Gutbucket]

I heard the last 15 minutes or so.  Your mix sounded nicely balanced.  The web-stream itself was somewhat bright up top and thin at the bottom, and pretty heavily compressed, which I assume was done at the station or by the streaming box.  That compression audibly pumped the room ambience and crowd reaction during quieter sections within the song, but I didn't notice any pumping or smoothness problems from your fader riding between the last songs or at the end when the crowd cheers.  Not that there was many opportunities to listen for that in the last 15 min.  I'm pretty sure all of that was down stream of your control though.

[cybergaloot]

I don't know how much of the compression comes from the box on our end or at the station. I suspect it was on their end, probably with the thought that most people listen to radio through crappy systems that can't handle much bass. The station is pretty much automated though there is an "engineer" there. I've learned a fair amount about how current radio works as a media outlet from Hank (there really is a Hank, its not just call letters, great guy). I tried to get him to convert the station to a more eclectic mix of roots and jam music but he explained the problems with that, the worst being selling advertising to people who don't know anything about music.

I try to gradually move the fader so that the change is subtle. I will be adding compression on the audience mic channel because I noticed that some of the claps were really friggin' loud! I have to keep in mind that this was a different audience than usual. By the end of the night most were on the dance floor closer to the mics. Also the Col. started singing away from the vocal mics so I had to pump up the ambient mics to catch them and those are right by the dance floor.

BTW, the board I'm currently using has a mono out with its own fader. I think I can use that to hook to the side chain on the compressor. I am going to hook up a second audience mic even though I don't have a channel for it right now. That way if I get some screaming, wolf whistling jerk under the current mic and I switch to the other. Sometimes you have to out-think the crowd.

[mosquito]

How have things been progressing in the last few months?

[cybergaloot]

I have my compressor setup for 'ducking' and that helps. Unfortunately the club owner or his wife have set up fans for the band and one is very close to my mic so I had to switch from an omni cap back to a card. That means I have to ride the fader more than I did when the omni was in place. I'm looking for a decent preamp like just a UA-5 so that I can set up a second audience mic and run them into one of the unused stereo channels of my board. The compressor can couple both channels so one side chain can control both channels. Maybe that will help. I'm also viewing possible alternate mic locations but that's not so easy in this club.

[easyed]

I used to use cardioids onstage pointed out at the audience and rode the levels but it still made the sound too 'reverberant'.  Have switched to shotguns (Rode NTG2's) onstage pointed out at the audience and riding the levels and liking the results.  But I pay close close attention and as the song is ending raise the 'audience' mics levels from nothing to the amount I like.

If you're a DIME member you can check my recording of Tim O'Brien with Stuart Duncan and Bryan Sutton and Mike Bub http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?&id=371144  which was a multitrack plus shotguns onstage plus Schoeps cardiod mics in the eighth row pointed at the stage, recorded to multitracks on my laptop and simultaneously mixed live to stereo.  So you can hear (or not hear) how I bring up the audience at the end of a song and bring it down again as the next song begins.

I realize you are trying to avoid riding the levels.  Can't help there.  But I do like the shotguns better than the cardioids for this application.  I am not after high fidelity since their job is not to record music but clapping and laughter and singalongs, etc.  The multitrack direct outs from the soundboard will provide fidelity for the musical portions - the shotguns only job is to record applause, etc.

Also your room is smaller than I typically record in - I'm typically in rooms holding between 250 and 5000 people.  For some of the venues where I record often I'm contemplating a permanent install of a couple of shotguns hung from above the audience and pointing directly down.  I think that's what they do for shows like Leno and Letterman to pick up the audience.

[cybergaloot]

I've been thinking of maybe some boundary mics on the ceiling. If I put them straight up over the monitors they should avoid picking them up and also cut the reverberation. I dunno. Using the compressor for ducking has been the best thing so far. The problem with that technique is when there is interaction between the band and the audience in the middle of a song. I had that last Saturday when Chick Willis (blues) had the audience singing along. I really had to push both the ambient mics and the audience mic to make it sound right.

Like you I'm not too concerned about the fidelity of the applause as long as it doesn't interfere with the music. I ran an omni for applause for a while and that seemed to work well until the club owner put a fan behind the mic. Yikes!

[Gutbucket]

Boundaries on the ceiling will sound less the revebert but will pick up everything in the room.

[cybergaloot]

Boundaries on the ceiling will sound less the revebert but will pick up everything in the room.

That's kind of the idea. Combined with ducking they may work well. Anybody know of a good inexpensive pair to try?

[Gutbucket]

Try some of your miniature omnis for a test. They're small and light enough to become boundary mounted by simply taping them flat against the ceiling.  Do you still have that CA-1 pair I saw you using a couple years ago?  B3s? other omnis small and light enough to just tape up there?

edit- if it works and you want purpose made dedicated boundary mics, AT makes some reasonable boundary mount mics, both normal omni and directionals.  I have one of the directional ones but have never used it.  Sort of a flat trapazoid shaped, heavy-ish, black housing with a mini-XLR.  I think Crown still makes PZMs at several price points.  The minatures might be just the ticket though.

[cybergaloot]

I have some CA-11s with both omni and card caps and I have a pair of the CAFS mics. I was just testing the CA-1s and don't know if they actually went into production. The CAFS may be perfect in that they are so small that they would lay flat. I might give them a shot.

[AHappyHourHero]

I know that this is an older thread, but I just had a talk with an engineer touring a pretty well known band the other night, and he freely gave me some of his tips and tricks that he uses.  Let me just say that these guys crush it night after night, and have one of the best live sounds in the jamband scene (IMHO).  Anyway, here goes.
ORTF mics, stage lip, pointing back at the crowd.  These microphone sources do not go to the FOH mix, but do go to the 4 track recording of the show which is available for purchase later through nugs.  What he does is route most all of his channels to a bus, that he then uses as a sidechain for those audience mics, to duc them when the band is playing.  As the song level decreases, or the song ends entirely, the audience source mics comes up in the mix to the recording. 
It's funny coming across this thread on TS, because earlier today I had actually stumbled upon this very same engineers question on an AVID forum. 
I understand that this may not be possible depending on the desk you are using (he is driving a Midas Pro9), but is very capable if you were to record in the box.  I have used this in my recordings in a much smaller venue (16-32 tracks), using analogue mixers and A/D's to PT's and Logic, as well as digi-logue consoles and Studiolive mixers. 
I do not run my audience mics through FOH to the PA, due to timing, reverb, feedback etc problems.  I guess if you really needed to for some reason, then a little math might get you closer to a realtime record from them rather then the natural delay.
I hope this helps someone along hthe way.  I know it did for me.
Cheers!
Christopher

[cybergaloot]

Between ducking and killing the 1kHz range on audience reaction mics I have gotten the problem mostly worked out. Also running them through a better preamp helped. I do still ride the fader for those mics a bit. It should be noted that my board is for recording and live streaming to the radio station only, not for FOH. There might be some reason for occasionally adding applause to a FOH mix but I certainly can't think of one at the moment. I think that in most cases it would come across as sounding like a bad sit-com.