Topic: M10, CA-14, 9200 Preamp Combo - Reduce muddiness tips?

[RoganSarine]

Just thinking (sort of) laterally for a moment - if you prefer the sound of the CA-11s, why not stick with them?

We've all got different preferences and perhaps you just prefer that particular sound.

It actually is an odd battle of the instrumentals sound way better on the CA-14's due to the more dynamic range, but it seems like the CA-11's have better high-end cut through without all the low end frequencies.

This thread was started as a curiosity if I was doing anything wrong, which it seems I might start DIN'ing again.

As an interesting curiousity, I'm getting the track mastered to see if the information is indeed there in the mix down, but if it just needs to be heavily or lightly tweaked. I'll post the results here when all is said and done as some random food for thought. I'll also see if I can convince them to give me tips or a work flow they did since bryonsos asked.

I think it'll be interesting for everyone to hear the before and after anyway, incase this question ever arises in the future.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Do you have any tips for reducing muddiness?

Is there any gaffer tape on the cables?

If not, maybe try adding some.

If there already is, maybe try removing it.

[newplanet7]

No, that waveform you posted doesn't look even remotely correct.
It looks pretty bricked.
Something else is going on here and it's not your set-up IMO

[RoganSarine]

No, that waveform you posted doesn't look even remotely correct.
It looks pretty bricked.
Something else is going on here and it's not your set-up IMO

Considering the venue and music, could it be that the sound tech compressed everything way too much? Granted, my wave forms have been like that since I've gotten my CA-14's, regardless of the venue.

[newplanet7]

I guess I should have stated that differently.
It's not HOW you set up, it seems to be your set up itself.

[LikeASong]

Do you have any tips for reducing muddiness?

Is there any gaffer tape on the cables?

If not, maybe try adding some.

If there already is, maybe try removing it.

LOL. That made me spill some of my late-nite tea over the keyboard and desk. No kidding.



Regarding the original topic of discussion, I have absolutely no idea of why do your vocals come out that muffled, but I'm taping my first show tomorrow with the CA-14's (at a small, 450-in-attendance thatre) and I'll be sure to share my results with you, RoganSarine. Let's hope you're eventually able to get rid of the muddiness

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I guess I should have stated that differently.
It's not HOW you set up, it seems to be your set up itself.

I haven't heard the sample or examined the waveform, but I agree.  Something seems awry.

[RoganSarine]

I guess I should have stated that differently.
It's not HOW you set up, it seems to be your set up itself.

I haven't heard the sample or examined the waveform, but I agree.  Something seems awry.

Any theories on what I could check would be great. Honestly, the only thing I can think of is a hardware issue, but I dunno - you don't find many rock/metal tapers to compare too.

http://www.overmined.com/downloads/DCS.wav

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I notice frequent distortion that can be heard pretty clearly starting about 14 seconds in.  It does seem there is something brickwalling, or limiting.   But I don't have any experience with those mics.

[RoganSarine]

Also, there seems to be some phasing, were you near a vent or fan? If not, I'd blame the mix again.

According to the audio technician I sent it off too, the issue he thinks is coming from inexperienced sound technicians in our city. He says, like Bryonsos suggested, "there is an issue with phasing from the original engineer; they seem out of phase with each other". So, it seems that by having sound techs who suck in my city, we're potentially getting a lot of wave cancellation/destruction with our audio.

Would there be any microphone positioning tricks to combat this, such as getting closer to the stacks?

Also, as an aside, is it better to record at 96.00 kHz or 48.00 kHz in a live setting? Is 96kHz just wasted space?

[F.O.Bean]

Yes, IMO, if recording PA systems, 96kHz is wasted space, however acoustic/acapella sets should be recorded at 96kHz, AT LEAST IMO. YMMV

I strictly stick to 24/48 since I rarely record anything thats not Amplified!

[LikeASong]

According to the audio technician I sent it off too, the issue he thinks is coming from inexperienced sound technicians in our city. He says, like Bryonsos suggested, "there is an issue with phasing from the original engineer; they seem out of phase with each other". So, it seems that by having sound techs who suck in my city, we're potentially getting a lot of wave cancellation/destruction with our audio.

But you said you actually DO hear the vocals clearly while you're at the shows, didn't you? Well, if vocals come up crystal clear while being there, but they turn out muddy in your recording, I think the reason is obviously a fault in your gear. If you've extensively used the M10 before without any noticeable problem, and you've also used the ST-9200 without fault... the problem might be in your CA-14's. The might be faulty or damaged in any way. Did you get them used or new?
Also, do you have the option of running two rigs (one with CA-14's and the other with CA-11's) at the same show with the same configuration (recorder, preamp, settings, mic placement)?? That'd be helpful. If vocals come up equally muffled, it's the venue/engineers fault... But if vocals come up clearer/much clearer on the CA-11's... You know.

Just a newbie's $0'02 though.

[Church-Audio]

Do you have any tips for reducing muddiness?

Is there any gaffer tape on the cables?

If not, maybe try adding some.

If there already is, maybe try removing it.

LOL smart ass !

[Church-Audio]

- Stop using XY; try DIN or try pointing the mics at the stacks.  IMHO other than ideal situations, XY just sounds bad.  YMMV.
- be sure your position is optimal (centered, ideally forward of the board, etc.)
- Use cards instead of omnis
- Familiarize yourself with your DAW software and learn to post-process what you don't like.

Remember, it's easier to take out something that's there than to put in something that's not.  "Muddiness" is in the eye of the beholder and the playback system; a better mic will pick up a wider range of sound.  The CA-14 is superior to the CA-11 in every way, but especially in the amount of bass it picks up.

If you just hear a lot of undefined, muddy bass, what are you listening on?  If you are using a modest playback system, it may not take full advantage of what the mics are getting. Case in point - listen to any raw recording made with my DPA or Schoeps (or any other HQ full frequency range mic) on iPhone headphones or another weak system - it will sound pretty bad, or at least "muddy".  On a quality system, it sounds amazing. 

I would suggest trying some mild EQ first, but again, keeping a very light touch.  What to you sounds like mud may to others sound like gold ))

I agree with this post 100% stop using XY these mics sound best on ether side of a boundary pointed at the source. Period. if you dont want all that low end simply turn on the high pass filter on the mics. Placement and where you are in the venue has a bigger impact on sound than anything else. I like these on ether side of a head under a sound transparent cap.

[Church-Audio]

Do you have any tips for reducing muddiness?

I generally record rock shows, use anXY ORTF Mic Setup, keep the mics about 15 cm apart, boom the mic above everyones head, always use line-in and try to get as close to the equilateral triangle as possible. Unfortunately, I'm still running into a drowned out vocalist more frequently than I'd like.

Sony PCM settings:
Low Mic Sensitivity
LCF Off
4dB gain, with 9200 doing the rest
9200 has HPF off

Does using preamp gain instead of the M10's gain reduce the audiowaves detail in rock shows?

It's not like the venue sounds like garbage. I use stereophonic earplugs molded to my ear that reduce the spectrum by -20dB, and it sounds fine and balanced, but the mics rarely agree with me.

Is there a way to bring out the vocalists with my setup? Or can I do it in post? Recommendations?

The reason I ask is because my 11's got me way better recordings than my 14's

I have attached the waveforms I usually get. They look brickwalled, but I dunno.

Are you going mic in or line in on the recorder?