Topic: M10, CA-14, 9200 Preamp Combo - Reduce muddiness tips?

[TimeBandit]

Also, as an aside, is it better to record at 96.00 kHz or 48.00 kHz in a live setting? Is 96kHz just wasted space?

If don't have good dithering plugins for downsampling 48 > 44.1, use 24/44 on the recording.
when i used my ca14 and the music i recorded i had to add a bit highshelf filter to bring out the highs a bit. lets see how the Ca11 wil handle that, i think i don't have to do this with them.

And before that question appears: use no bass rolloff on the preamp / bbox when using the ca14s. better do that in post if desired.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

If don't have good dithering plugins for downsampling 48 > 44.1, use 24/44 on the recording.

Dithering is necessary for the 24 to 16 bit conversion, but is not a part of the downsampling process (that I know of).

Sometimes you can't hear phasing when in the room because our brains compensate for stuff like that. I did compare peaks in the left and right channels to check for outright cable phasing issues and did not see any.

What about the distortion on the loud peaks?  I heard that throughout the recording.  Could you hear that in the venue?  If so, it would have been a very crunchy PA. 

It might be useful for you to set your rig up exactly as you ran it and yell into the mics from very close (3") to see whether you can get your levels to clip as they should, with no brick wall, and no distortion.

[RoganSarine]

Do you have any tips for reducing muddiness?

I generally record rock shows, use anXY ORTF Mic Setup, keep the mics about 15 cm apart, boom the mic above everyones head, always use line-in and try to get as close to the equilateral triangle as possible. Unfortunately, I'm still running into a drowned out vocalist more frequently than I'd like.

Sony PCM settings:
Low Mic Sensitivity
LCF Off
4dB gain, with 9200 doing the rest
9200 has HPF off

Does using preamp gain instead of the M10's gain reduce the audiowaves detail in rock shows?

It's not like the venue sounds like garbage. I use stereophonic earplugs molded to my ear that reduce the spectrum by -20dB, and it sounds fine and balanced, but the mics rarely agree with me.

Is there a way to bring out the vocalists with my setup? Or can I do it in post? Recommendations?

The reason I ask is because my 11's got me way better recordings than my 14's

I have attached the waveforms I usually get. They look brickwalled, but I dunno.

Are you going mic in or line in on the recorder?

I always use line in.

What do you mean by "I like these on ether side of a head under a sound transparent cap"?

[vanark]

What do you mean by "I like these on ether side of a head under a sound transparent cap"?

He's talking about a hat mounted situation - usually done in a stxxlth situation.

head == your noggin.
cap == some sort of hat

[mec111272]

What do you mean by "I like these on ether side of a head under a sound transparent cap"?

He's talking about a hat mounted situation - usually done in a stxxlth situation.

head == your noggin.
cap == some sort of hat

Nice.

I am running my new CA-14, 9200 rig this weekend.  (Sister Sparrow)  I too have run CA-11's and have come to like the sound,  but my understanding is that they are a bit tinny for some peoples taste.  Most times I had to give a  little base boost to get a "fuller" sound.

In the interest of "science" I'll run both for a few songs.  The Venue "The Spot Underground" has a real nice sound.

http://www.archive.org/details/thp2011-11-26.CA11.flac
http://www.archive.org/details/thp2011-11-26.NeumanTLM170

This is a direct comparison of CA-11's and Neuman TLM170's  a prime example of the value of Church Audio Gear

[TimSmith]

I've been using my CA-14 (omni) with CA-bbox and m10 for a year and I like them very much (thanks, Chris!). Never needed EQ or anything. I use bass roll-off - off and limiter - on. On my sennheiser HD215 or CX300 headphones it sounds exactly as I heard it live.
Here's one my recordings:
http://www.archive.org/details/nma2011-07-29.ca14.flac16
I was sitting very far from stage, but the sound IMHO isn't muddy even with onmi mics.

Just my own little experience...

[bryonsos]

I've been using my CA-14 (omni) with CA-bbox and m10 for a year and I like them very much (thanks, Chris!). Never needed EQ or anything. I use bass roll-off - off and limiter - on. On my sennheiser HD215 or CX300 headphones it sounds exactly as I heard it live.
Here's one my recordings:
http://www.archive.org/details/nma2011-07-29.ca14.flac16
I was sitting very far from stage, but the sound IMHO isn't muddy even with onmi mics.

Just my own little experience...

NMAS in Moscow. Very cool.

[vanark]

Is it possible you need a new 9V battery in the preamp?

[TimSmith]

I've been using my CA-14 (omni) with CA-bbox and m10 for a year and I like them very much (thanks, Chris!). Never needed EQ or anything. I use bass roll-off - off and limiter - on. On my sennheiser HD215 or CX300 headphones it sounds exactly as I heard it live.
Here's one my recordings:
http://www.archive.org/details/nma2011-07-29.ca14.flac16
I was sitting very far from stage, but the sound IMHO isn't muddy even with onmi mics.

Just my own little experience...

NMAS in Moscow. Very cool.

Yeah. The show was great. Sort of a little trip to Mississippi. Pretty rare for Moscow.

[mec111272]

Moscow,  I thought Vanark would go far to see NMA but that's a little ridiculous!

[acidjack]

I've been using my CA-14 (omni) with CA-bbox and m10 for a year and I like them very much (thanks, Chris!). Never needed EQ or anything. I use bass roll-off - off and limiter - on. On my sennheiser HD215 or CX300 headphones it sounds exactly as I heard it live.
Here's one my recordings:
http://www.archive.org/details/nma2011-07-29.ca14.flac16
I was sitting very far from stage, but the sound IMHO isn't muddy even with onmi mics.

Just my own little experience...

Nice pull.  Must be a pretty good sounding venue.  I'd consider not using the limiter, though, as I'm hearing some strange-sounding stuff on the deep bass notes, which I'm guessing is that limiter kicking in.

[vanark]

Moscow,  I thought Vanark would go far to see NMA but that's a little ridiculous!

I've been to Mississippi to see the Allstars and to the Netherlands to see Van Morrison.   

[TimSmith]

I've been using my CA-14 (omni) with CA-bbox and m10 for a year and I like them very much (thanks, Chris!). Never needed EQ or anything. I use bass roll-off - off and limiter - on. On my sennheiser HD215 or CX300 headphones it sounds exactly as I heard it live.
Here's one my recordings:
http://www.archive.org/details/nma2011-07-29.ca14.flac16
I was sitting very far from stage, but the sound IMHO isn't muddy even with onmi mics.

Just my own little experience...

Nice pull.  Must be a pretty good sounding venue.  I'd consider not using the limiter, though, as I'm hearing some strange-sounding stuff on the deep bass notes, which I'm guessing is that limiter kicking in.

Yes, it is a new place, opened in 2009 (one of the best in Moscow for now). I think I'll try 24 bit and without limiter next time. I didn't know it could affect the sound so much... You must be right about limiter. Thanks for suggestion.

By the way: the first track on that archive.org page is from another recording and the last song is missing... :-/ Looks like uploader's mistake.

[RoganSarine]

Okay, i might have found something interesting.

Does the CA-9200 affect the waveform at all? Does it change the sound the mics recieve in anyway? Or, does it simply boost the signal? Should it work ad a preamp like this for all microphones?

Out of curiousity, instead of using my shure preamp, i plugged a dynamic vocal mic into the 9200 and line in. I recorded it. I loadedthe wave into Reaper and couldnt even see it despite having it peak at the aame point as my Shure preamp. It also lost the voices dynamic range- it sounded a lot less harsh and natural, more like I was a radio DJ with a silky smooth voice. It sounded lifeless. Its interesting because this sounds similar what happens to my vocals.

[acidjack]

Okay, i might have found something interesting.

Does the CA-9200 affect the waveform at all? Does it change the sound the mics recieve in anyway? Or, does it simply boost the signal? Should it work ad a preamp like this for all microphones?

Out of curiousity, instead of using my shure preamp, i plugged a dynamic vocal mic into the 9200 and line in. I recorded it. I loadedthe wave into Reaper and couldnt even see it despite having it peak at the aame point as my Shure preamp. It also lost the voices dynamic range- it sounded a lot less harsh and natural, more like I was a radio DJ with a silky smooth voice. It sounded lifeless. Its interesting because this sounds similar what happens to my vocals.

A dynamic mic AFAIK won't work with that preamp. It's a 9V preamp designed to provide plug-in power to an electret-type mic.

All preamps "affect" the sound in some way, but the 9200 is not designed to do so intentionally (i.e., by addition of certain electronics like transformers that provide known types of coloration).

It will not work with "all microphones"; it will only work with mics that require 9V plug-in power.  Like Church Audio mics.

If you are recording loud shows, you really don't need the preamp at all and should just run with a simple battery box. Fewer failure points in the chain and fewer knobs to mess around with.