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Author Topic: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz  (Read 54617 times)

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Offline lastubbe

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #135 on: December 08, 2012, 01:36:25 PM »
I've only read the first few pages, but I wanted to add (unless it's already been mentioned) if you record at 24/96 to an SD card, you should use a higher performance/class 10 card.  Some recordings have stopped due to a 'write error' with a class 6 SD card.

Confirmed higher quality!   ;)
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #136 on: December 09, 2012, 03:29:13 PM »
I've only read the first few pages, but I wanted to add (unless it's already been mentioned) if you record at 24/96 to an SD card, you should use a higher performance/class 10 card.  Some recordings have stopped due to a 'write error' with a class 6 SD card.

Confirmed higher quality!   ;)

what?  have fun splitting hairs.

Record in whatever sample rate you are going to use... as someone already mentioned converting is damaging to the audio. There is a difference with 96khz if you use a high quality playback system, still... subtle.  usually I use 24/48... 48khz for video editing and convert t 48khz mp3's.  I don't burn CD's anymore (hardly), but I convert to 44.1/16 for uploading to a torrent site or archive.org.

Offline noahbickart

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #137 on: December 10, 2012, 08:39:31 AM »
I'd love to see some ABX results for some of the claims being made in this thread. Or at least post both 24bit and 24>16>24bit files and let us try to tell the difference.

I can't hear the difference between 48 and 96.

I run 96 because my gear can, because hard drive space is cheep and most importantly, it makes me feel better about myself as a taper and as an audiophile.  :P

I run 24bit so I can run my levels lower so I don't have to ride the gain as much and so i can drink more beer at shows. I normalize in post. (This is because I *can* hear the difference between a 16bit recording where the levels hit only -12db and then normalized in post and a 24bit recording where the levels hit only -12db and then normalized in post)

At a rock & roll show there is no need for more than 100db of dynamic range. Perhaps for nature recordings or symphonies.

I maintain that your brains are playing tricks on those of you who claim to be able to tell the difference.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 02:36:40 AM by noahbickart »
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #138 on: December 10, 2012, 12:00:48 PM »
i think the point i was trying to make was not received in the manner intended.  my claim that a recording captured at 24/96 sounds more open and easier on the ears is not the same as saying that 24/96 is better quality. 
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 12:09:18 PM by bass_ur_face »

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #139 on: December 10, 2012, 01:44:03 PM »
I can't hear the difference between 48 and 96.

I run 96 because my gear can, because hard drive space is cheep and most importantly, it makes me feel better about myself as a taper and as an audiophile.  :P

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #140 on: December 10, 2012, 03:55:00 PM »
i think the point i was trying to make was not received in the manner intended.  my claim that a recording captured at 24/96 sounds more open and easier on the ears is not the same as saying that 24/96 is better quality.

I have no problem with that kind of quality claim. Quality is a pretty broadly defined term. More open and easier on the ears certainly equates to better quality in my opinion.  :)

However your comments about needing different level settings and increased headroom are things which are more or less at odds with the technical aspects of varying the sample rate.  Those attributes are things one might expect to find with a change of bit-depth - say going from 16 to 24 bits. A change of sample rate alone should not technically affect issues of level or dynamics in any significant way when recording music.  That is not to say the differences you perceived are not real, it is rather a question of to what those differences you most certainly heard should be attributed.

Be careful in making sure you are really comparing apples to apples before drawing conclusions between fruit.  Without comparing files made on identical machines recording the same feed at different rates there are a multitude of extraneous variables that can easily overshadow a meaningful comparison.  The difficult part is minimalizing the influence of other variables except sample rate to a practical extent. If you are constrained to using one recorder for the test, at the very least change sample rate settings at some point during a break in the performance so that many of the other variables go unchanged (the band, style of music, the room, the levels, hopefully the number of persons in the audience, etc).  Even then, you aren't comparing the exact same recorded segment.  Yet running that test a few times before reaching a decision may lead to a more clear conclusion. Consider recording the first part at 96kHz and the second part at 48kHz one evening, then reverse that another, to help cancel out the natural first-half / second-half bias towards better playing, excitement and more dialed in sound later in the program - which is just one variable still left among many in that situation.

Regardless of the technicalities of sample rate conversion and filtering (of which I would not be surprised to find my admittedly limited understanding may be either incorrect or outdated by 20 years) what interests me in a practical sense is still this-

[self quote from earlier in the thread] What I wonder about is the original capture conversion of 48 vs 96 kHz using my particular equipment.. not because I think any ultrasonic information may be audible or that the high-quality resampling I can do on the computer may be audible, but because the recording equipment I'm using is modest and the ADCs in the recorders may perform better at 96 than 48 (or vice-versa) for a number of reasons.

I don't have to fully understand the technicalites of SRC implementations to test that, only understand the problem and how to minimilaize the pitfalls involved in running a reliable test.  I’ve not made all the effort to set up such a test, but my working conclusion is that I have yet to notice any sonic difference between recordings I’ve made at 48 and 96kHz which I can attribute to the difference in saple rate.
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #141 on: December 10, 2012, 04:16:11 PM »
all i know is that with the exact same mics, recorder and preamp that i typically use for a 24/48 recording, when i went to 96kHz i had to kick the gain up on my preamp a noticeable amount to get levels in the same range as with the 48kHz setting.  since the only variable that changed was the kHz setting i assumed that's what caused the increased headroom.  i've recorded a few more shows since my initial trial with the 96kHz setting and the results have been consistently reproduced.   

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #142 on: December 10, 2012, 05:16:08 PM »
all i know is that with the exact same mics, recorder and preamp that i typically use for a 24/48 recording, when i went to 96kHz i had to kick the gain up on my preamp a noticeable amount to get levels in the same range as with the 48kHz setting.  since the only variable that changed was the kHz setting i assumed that's what caused the increased headroom.  i've recorded a few more shows since my initial trial with the 96kHz setting and the results have been consistently reproduced.

Well, one of the points I was trying to make was that the change in sample rate was not the only variable which changed between the files you are comparing, even if the same mics, recorder and preamp were used. 

At the end of your post above, you mention that you’ve run the test multiple times, and that helps to average out some of those other variables somewhat.  If you’ve run the test enough times to reach a point where it becomes clear that there is a consistent difference in some aspect or another despite the other variables, then you are getting somewhere.

But where that gets you is to the conclusion that your equipment behaves differently at the different settings.  That’s undoubtedly of practical value and a more important question with regards to making the best recordings you can with the equipment you have, but it may or may not apply to other equipment used the same way.  It answers a question about how your particular equipment behaves at different settings rather than which sample rate is better in itself. Concluding that the difference is fully attributable to the change in sample rate rather than the particulars of the implementation is a jump.   

[edit- Jon's post while I was typing suggests one way in which a difference in implementation could be the source of the differences you hear rather than the change of sample rate itself]

And that was the other point I was attempting to make in pointing out that what really interests me is how my gear performs.  I was trying to separate the more theoretical discussion were having about different recording sample rates, from the more practical question of which setting I choose to use given my gear, and my situation.  Both questions are interesting and worth discussing, and might have different answers. Apologies if I was less than clear.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 09:30:43 AM by Gutbucket »
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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #143 on: December 10, 2012, 07:03:37 PM »
Well, one of the points I was trying to make
Well, one of the points I was trying to make

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #144 on: December 10, 2012, 09:38:57 PM »
all very interesting points.  the specific equipment i've been using is Sennheiser MKH8050 > Aerco MP-2 > Sony M-10.  based on Jon and Gutbucket's feedback the "add'l headroom" may be a function of the way the Sony's ADC behaves at the 96kHz setting versus the 48kHz setting (not necessarily the result of the inherent character/behavior of the 96kHz setting).  i'm going to try the same experiment with my R-44 and see what happens.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 09:41:28 PM by bass_ur_face »

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #145 on: December 11, 2012, 09:36:08 AM »
Is there an echo in here since TS went offline briefly?  :P

Helloooooo..helloooo
yep. couldn't get back in to modify my accidental double-post yestereday.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #146 on: January 07, 2013, 02:29:40 PM »
all very interesting points.  the specific equipment i've been using is Sennheiser MKH8050 > Aerco MP-2 > Sony M-10.  based on Jon and Gutbucket's feedback the "add'l headroom" may be a function of the way the Sony's ADC behaves at the 96kHz setting versus the 48kHz setting (not necessarily the result of the inherent character/behavior of the 96kHz setting).  i'm going to try the same experiment with my R-44 and see what happens.

i've had a chance to use my R-44 at the 24/96 setting and the 48kHz versus the 96kHz setting makes absolutely no difference in how the levels behave.  the difference i was experiencing with my M-10 seems to be specific to the M-10. 

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #147 on: January 07, 2013, 04:11:19 PM »
Holy crap! Seriously? I recorded my first few shows on my M10 at 96kHz and had a terrible time getting the levels any good. I thought I just sucked at hitting levels. I couldn't figure out how people were getting good results with M10 at gain level 3 when I was needing to be above 6!

With the huge files and everything I switched to 48kHz over the summer and also got more comfortable with my gear and low and behold I've had much better results getting levels up during shows and running the M10 at 3. I thought I was just getting better! Doh! This would make a lot more sense.

I was chalking it up to inexperience which I'm sure had a contributing factor, but this might have more to do with it. So maybe neither was I as bad as I thought when I started, nor have I improved as much as I thought....  :facepalm:

I'm going to do some testing of my own now. This might be an unfortunate deficiency in M10 design (still love the recorder) but it will help my world to make a little more sense if I can reproduce this.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 04:17:03 PM by Ultfris101 »
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #148 on: January 07, 2013, 10:57:40 PM »
I just do 24/48! Easier to deal with files in post and saves me $$ on blank DVDRs ;)
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #149 on: January 11, 2013, 06:42:01 AM »
I just do 24/48! Easier to deal with files in post and saves me $$ on blank DVDRs ;)
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