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Author Topic: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz  (Read 54611 times)

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Offline DSatz

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #150 on: January 13, 2013, 09:11:00 AM »
I'm not following this whole thread, but would just like to agree (strongly) with one logical point that's been raised about the way some people's opinions have been formed on this topic. If you take a digital audio recorder and you record one performance at one sample rate, and another performance at another sample rate, you may think that you're comparing "the sound" of the two sample rates. Many people have done this and have come away with strong opinions; to them, their opinions are based on first-hand experience, and seem valid.

But other people have recorded and listened to identical signals at two different sampling rates. Many in this second group of people also feel that there are audible differences (particularly after learning what to listen for, which doesn't stand out to most people)--but quite a few people don't hear any definite difference when the identical source is used for both sampling rates--particularly if someone helps them out so that they can listen without knowing which recording they're hearing at a given moment. Those people tend to have strong opinions less often, though their experience lends greater credibility to their conclusions (or lack thereof), since there are fewer uncontrolled variables in the comparison.

Now here's the thing: Even back in the early 1980s when digital audio was still new and there were no high-rate A/D converters--the highest was Tom Stockham's 50 kHz Soundstream system--it was widely acknowledged that some converters sounded better than others. And that's huge as far as this discussion is concerned. If different converters and recorders can sound different when running at the same sampling rate, then another recorder or converter could always come along and sound better (or worse) than anything else you've ever heard at that same rate, and reset your expectations.

Conclusion: NOBODY can ever be sure that they've heard what any particular sampling rate "sounds like." Sampling rates in themselves can't be shown conclusively to have a "sound"; only particular implementations of them can, on specific recorded material.

One classic case of this occurred back in the 1980s, and I think that a lot of pro audio people formed their opinions on its basis. The first-generation Sony studio DAT machine (PCM-2500 if I recall correctly) was the first widely available digital recorder with a front-panel switch to control the sampling rate. Those decks were widely judged to sound not so great at 44.1 kHz, and better at 48 kHz. So a lot of people decided, aha: 48 kHz sounds a lot better than 44.1 kHz.

But in those decks, whenever you switched sampling rates, you also switched the analog anti-aliasing and anti-imaging filters. So the quality of those filters was a variable as well, and the 44.1 kHz filters had particular problems. As some of you may know, Apogee got their start in big-time audio by supplying lower-distortion aftermarket filters for Sony professional DAT and DASH recorders. With Apogee filters in place, the 44.1 kHz performance in particular became cleaner, and most people no longer heard any big difference between 44.1 and 48 kHz sampling on those decks.

But here's the thing: The great majority of people who had formed an initial opinion never made the follow-up experiment with comparable-quality implementations at the different sampling rates. So they still held on to their initial opinions, because no experience of theirs ever contradicted them. Plus, by then certain people had staked part of their reputation on their ability to hear the difference between sampling rates (can you actually imagine--people having egos in the music business)?

And that is the situation we find ourselves in. In general, the strength of anyone's opinion about the "sound" of different sampling rates (or many other topics such as tubes vs. transistors, discrete vs. op-amp, etc.), and their judgment of how relevant their listening experience actually is to the question at hand, may be inversely proportional to the amount of truly relevant listening experience that the person has.

--best regards
« Last Edit: January 13, 2013, 04:57:38 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline dream

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #151 on: January 13, 2013, 03:55:19 PM »
In general, the strength of anyone's opinion about the "sound" of different sampling rates (or many other topics such as tubes vs. transistors, discrete vs. op-amp, etc.), and their judgment of how relevant their listening experience actually is to the question at hand, may be inversely proportional to the amount of truly relevant listening experience that the person has.

I strongly agree. Often I stop these nonsensical discussions by saying, "I cannot hear a difference - you must have better hearing than me." I enjoy the look they have at me then ...
Often I record with 96kHz for practical reasons in sound design or if the final format needs it. But I have never a bad feeling when recording with 44.1 kHz.

Offline nardo

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #152 on: January 28, 2013, 06:01:53 AM »
I hope it's ok to bump this topic for my question.

I have a PCM-M10 and will record in 24bit exclusively, there's no question about that, not going to do 16bit or less with it. I read through all the M10 threads (all 6?) these past few days and I also searched up on sampling rate topics. It seemed that a few years ago (let's say until 2008-2009?) a lot of people were recording their live shows 24/44.1 but then as of more recently the majority of users record at 24/48. Why the change of heart?

Is this simply because you want to listen to your shows on DVD-Video discs? My target format is going to be redbook cd audio for the most part, so if I stick with 24/44.1 I will not have to resample (I read some of e.g. DSatz's posts about that and the way I understood it, if I don't have to resample then that's one less potential step of quality loss - hope I'm not mistaken there), only dither. Also, my stereo supposely can playback FLAC at any sample rate up to 192kHz (Pioneer), though I haven't tested anything above 96kHz, yet. So personal playback won't be a problem, I could do dvd-a also and 24/44.1 is a valid format for that. Most of my live recording listening is done on the computer using headphones anyway so again no problem with 24/44.1 there, either.

99% of the shows I record are amplified through a PA, so I don't think there is much going on above 20kHz (if that high, probably only 16kHz in some of the venues I frequent), so 44.1 kHz should be fine for that.
Basically, is there anything absolutely wrong with sticking to 44.1 kHz as opposed to 48 kHz that I didn't consider here? File space is not really an issue, it would only result in slightly bigger files. But I'd rather avoid the extra resampling step if there is no reasonable benefit to recording in 48kHz.

Sorry if this is a little repetitive, English isn't my first language and I tried to make myself as clear as possible. Thanks for your time.

EDIT: I forgot another thing that slightly irritated me. I noticed that user "acidjack" (nyctaper.com) records most of their shows in 24/44.1 when using the Sony PCM-M10. But when they use a different recorder, e.g. Edirol R44, they pretty much always do 24/48. Any particular reason for that? (I could take this to PM but I felt it was an odd thing to contact someone I don't know at all in private).
« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 06:05:19 AM by nardo »

Offline nardo

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #153 on: January 30, 2013, 01:22:40 PM »
Anyone able to help me out here? If I should search for an answer I'd really appreciate a keyword to search for because I didn't find a reason against 44.1 (or pro-48 and anti-44.1) in the topics I found.

Offline Karl

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #154 on: January 30, 2013, 01:53:11 PM »
For your purposes, it sounds like 44.1 will be just fine. If you are mainly playing back on CD's, then you are doing the right thing.

Will you always be listening to CD's? Will the day come when you listen to music primarily on something else?
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cashandkerouac

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #155 on: January 30, 2013, 02:01:55 PM »
I hope it's ok to bump this topic for my question.

I have a PCM-M10 and will record in 24bit exclusively, there's no question about that, not going to do 16bit or less with it. I read through all the M10 threads (all 6?) these past few days and I also searched up on sampling rate topics. It seemed that a few years ago (let's say until 2008-2009?) a lot of people were recording their live shows 24/44.1 but then as of more recently the majority of users record at 24/48. Why the change of heart?

Is this simply because you want to listen to your shows on DVD-Video discs? My target format is going to be redbook cd audio for the most part, so if I stick with 24/44.1 I will not have to resample (I read some of e.g. DSatz's posts about that and the way I understood it, if I don't have to resample then that's one less potential step of quality loss - hope I'm not mistaken there), only dither. Also, my stereo supposely can playback FLAC at any sample rate up to 192kHz (Pioneer), though I haven't tested anything above 96kHz, yet. So personal playback won't be a problem, I could do dvd-a also and 24/44.1 is a valid format for that. Most of my live recording listening is done on the computer using headphones anyway so again no problem with 24/44.1 there, either.

99% of the shows I record are amplified through a PA, so I don't think there is much going on above 20kHz (if that high, probably only 16kHz in some of the venues I frequent), so 44.1 kHz should be fine for that.
Basically, is there anything absolutely wrong with sticking to 44.1 kHz as opposed to 48 kHz that I didn't consider here? File space is not really an issue, it would only result in slightly bigger files. But I'd rather avoid the extra resampling step if there is no reasonable benefit to recording in 48kHz.

Sorry if this is a little repetitive, English isn't my first language and I tried to make myself as clear as possible. Thanks for your time.

EDIT: I forgot another thing that slightly irritated me. I noticed that user "acidjack" (nyctaper.com) records most of their shows in 24/44.1 when using the Sony PCM-M10. But when they use a different recorder, e.g. Edirol R44, they pretty much always do 24/48. Any particular reason for that? (I could take this to PM but I felt it was an odd thing to contact someone I don't know at all in private).

nardo:  i personally don't see anything wrong with recording at 24 bit/44.1 kHz.  the general practice of recording at 24 bit/48kHz provides more headroom and adds some flexibility to the post-production process.  with the M10 specifically i have recently started recording at 24 bit/96kHz.  i noticed much better control of levels and much more headroom using the 24/96 setting.  with my Roland R-44 my levels behave exactly the same whether i use 24/48 or 24/96, so i use the 24/48 setting with the R-44.  hope this helps a little bit.

edit:  while i was typing my response Jon posted some info.  his explanation is much better than mine.   
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 02:05:11 PM by bass_ur_face »

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #156 on: January 30, 2013, 02:12:27 PM »
the general practice of recording at 24 bit/48kHz provides more headroom

I almost posted a snarkey picture, but I'll refrain this time.

Headroom as it's commonly used in audio is a function of bit depth, not sampling frequency.
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #157 on: January 30, 2013, 02:14:52 PM »
the general practice of recording at 24 bit/48kHz provides more headroom

I almost posted a snarkey picture, but I'll refrain this time.

Headroom as it's commonly used in audio is a function of bit depth, not sampling frequency.

thank you for the correction.   ;D

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #158 on: January 30, 2013, 02:18:24 PM »
the general practice of recording at 24 bit/48kHz provides more headroom

I almost posted a snarkey picture, but I'll refrain this time.

Headroom as it's commonly used in audio is a function of bit depth, not sampling frequency.

thank you for the correction.   ;D

No worries. I've said incorrect things in my life time. It happens.

I think there is something in the M10's display function that triggers a difference but I wouldn't expect the underlying levels or noise floor to change for the same frequencies regardless of sampling frequency. A benchmark test of tones should resolve that.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #159 on: January 30, 2013, 03:36:00 PM »
88.2:  use if you have the resources (storage space, processing power), your final target is CD audio, *and* if you plan on doing a significant amount of dynamics processing (compression, limiting).  This is because dynamics processing needs to be oversampled, and running at a higher rate especially helps if your dynamics processors don't do the greatest job at oversampling.  IMPORTANT NOTE!  You must bandlimit to 20kHz before dynamics processing, or you will lose this benefit. Staying at 88.2 rather than 96 helps if your sample rate converter is less than perfect, as lower-quality SRCs do a better job at low-integer multiples (1/2).  Second note:  if you need to conserve storage space on your recorder, you can get the same benefit by recording at 44.1 and upsampling before dynamics processing.  Again, if you have really good dynamics processors, they will do that for you.

Jon, can you provide a bit more detail about reasoning behind the bolded part above?
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #160 on: January 30, 2013, 03:42:02 PM »
88.2:  use if you have the resources (storage space, processing power), your final target is CD audio, *and* if you plan on doing a significant amount of dynamics processing (compression, limiting).  This is because dynamics processing needs to be oversampled, and running at a higher rate especially helps if your dynamics processors don't do the greatest job at oversampling.  IMPORTANT NOTE!  You must bandlimit to 20kHz before dynamics processing, or you will lose this benefit. Staying at 88.2 rather than 96 helps if your sample rate converter is less than perfect, as lower-quality SRCs do a better job at low-integer multiples (1/2).  Second note:  if you need to conserve storage space on your recorder, you can get the same benefit by recording at 44.1 and upsampling before dynamics processing.  Again, if you have really good dynamics processors, they will do that for you.

Jon, can you provide a bit more detail about reasoning behind the bolded part above?

that caught my eye as well.  i'm also interested to get more info.

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #161 on: January 30, 2013, 04:06:01 PM »
Thanks!
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Offline nardo

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #162 on: January 30, 2013, 05:18:04 PM »
Thanks for the great info! Much appreciated. It's rather late here so I hope I'll be able to fully understand everything tomorrow morning.

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #163 on: February 01, 2013, 07:10:40 AM »
No worries. I've said incorrect things in my life time. It happens.

I think there is something in the M10's display function that triggers a difference but I wouldn't expect the underlying levels or noise floor to change for the same frequencies regardless of sampling frequency. A benchmark test of tones should resolve that.

I did this and don't see a difference between 24/48 and 24/96.  I just generated some noise on the computer and recorded it at both sampling rates.  Both hit the same levels on the M10.  Looking further, both recordings had the same maximum level and average RMS...

IMPORTANT NOTE!  You must bandlimit to 20kHz before dynamics processing, or you will lose this benefit.

One more question about this:  what's the best way to limit the bandwidth for this purpose?  Low pass filter?  Upsampling from a lower sampling frequency? 

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #164 on: February 13, 2013, 05:26:19 AM »
I record @ 24/96 on my m10.

I can't hear the difference between recording the PA of a rock concert at 48 kHz or at 96 kHz.

But I feel better about myself and about my gear that I can do fancy stuff.

Cost in storage space (and therefore recording time) and processing time is minimal for me, so that's what I do.

I listen to the 24/96 files at home and convert to v0 mp3 (@48kHz) on my iphone for non critical portable and car listening.
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