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Author Topic: 4 channels?  (Read 17672 times)

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Offline Muddy Das

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4 channels?
« on: April 13, 2012, 08:38:03 PM »
just curios, what would be the advantage of running 4  channels and how would you set up your mics? I have only been at this for year and just feel like i should be getting more out of my recordings.


Offline Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)

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Re: 4 channels?
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2012, 08:40:12 PM »
SBD (2 channels) + Mics (2 channels).

Plenty of recordings like this are available. Listen to a few. Just saw that Chuck uploaded a Lucero recording with 4 channels. Checkout the Kickdown section for it.
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Offline achalsey

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Re: 4 channels?
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2012, 09:05:10 PM »
SBD (2 channels) + Mics (2 channels).

This mostly.

But also if you have two pairs of nice, complementary sounding mics, mixing those two sources can turn out well.  I've made a few mixes of onstage omnis and FOB cards that came out better than either source sounded individually.

Offline Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)

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Re: 4 channels?
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2012, 09:17:18 PM »
^ Yep. The options are (nearly) limitless.

With more than 4 channels you have a lot more options. My personal favorite is to run 2 mics + 1 or 2 SBD channels + as many other individual vocal mics as I can or need. Mix everything in post.
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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: 4 channels?
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2012, 09:36:12 PM »
I have only been at this for year and just feel like i should be getting more out of my recordings.

What do you feel is missing or inadequate?  It's possible something easier than adding 2 more channels could help, e.g. different location / stand height, mic configuration, post-processing, etc.
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Offline lastubbe

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Re: 4 channels?
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2012, 06:43:17 PM »
I have only been at this for year and just feel like i should be getting more out of my recordings.

What do you feel is missing or inadequate?  It's possible something easier than adding 2 more channels could help, e.g. different location / stand height, mic configuration, post-processing, etc.

Agreed.  Adding 2 more channels is not always the best option.
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Offline Muddy Das

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Re: 4 channels?
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2012, 07:46:47 PM »
I just feel like it should have a more fuller sound.  I run sp c4>ua5>m10 i post with soundforge. what got me thinking about adding channels is one band asked me if i could add some.

Offline achalsey

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Re: 4 channels?
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2012, 08:02:42 PM »
Any samples?  (Archive preferably for me, I'm lazy and don't like downloading samples).

I ran C4 > UA5 for a bit and wasn't totally impressed but turned out I was dealing with a faulty battery cable the whole time and didn't realize it.  That said I got some recordings I was pretty happy with.

Two more channels for SBD feeds almost always help IMO (but granted it will be to various degrees depending on venue/sound guy/band setup ect...).  A tascam DR-2d is 130 bucks.  (http://www.amazon.com/Tascam-DR2D-Portable-Digital-Recorder/dp/B003838PHQ

More channels for mics would be silly.  A mic upgrade would be first priority in my mind.

Offline darby

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Re: 4 channels?
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2012, 08:32:21 PM »
It all depends on how much work you want to do...
I had a Tascam DR-680 for awhile and got tired of lugging around 2 or 3 pairs of mics plus shit tons of batteries.
Not to mention the increased amount of editing work involved, and I rarely did 4 mic mixes (omni/shotgun only).
I did alot of mic body/cap comparisons though while owning the 680 and really thought that was my only advantage.
For the amount of SBD/AUD MTXs I do now, I feel the Tascam DR-2d is sufficient for my needs.
If you do alot of MTXs, then an R44 or even a Sound Devices box would be more appropriate.
I feel that a single pair of GOOD mics in the right location/configuration running thru a NICE preamp is really all you need.
 

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: 4 channels?
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2012, 08:47:04 PM »
For anything other than comparision between two different setups (which is actually one of the most informative things to do with 4 channels), or surround sound for your own playback (which few do here but is really, really cool!) you need to be comfortable with mixing things afterwards to take advantage of more than two recording channels.

The old 3-mic stereo option is too often overlooked these days, IMO.  Options are identical Left/Center/Right mics arranged appropriately and later mixed to stereo (offering more control over stereo width and 'fullness') or a single omni between two directional mics.  On a 4 channel recorder that leaves one channel open for a SBD patch to matix things if you like.  I just ran cardioids + single center omni last Sat night, with the idea of a possible SBD patch which didn't materialze.
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Offline Muddy Das

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Re: 4 channels?
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2012, 05:42:48 PM »
I am intrigued by the 3 mic stereo option. How far apart would you place your mics? With the mixing would you somehow divide the center between the left and right?

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: 4 channels?
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2012, 06:59:08 PM »
I just feel like it should have a more fuller sound.  I run sp c4>ua5>m10 i post with soundforge. what got me thinking about adding channels is one band asked me if i could add some.

I'll echo achalsey's request:  samples would help, including details about the recording environment, location, mic config, etc., as well as what sort of playback you're using to determine the lack of fullness.

Which C4:  omni, cardioid, hyper?  The cardioids have a substantial and significant rolloff in lower frequencies, -2 dB by 200 Hz, -4 dB by 100 Hz, and -7 dB by 50 Hz .  (I didn't find graphs for the hypers on the SP website.)  I wonder if this may contribute to your sense of a lack of fullness.

Silly question, but never hurts to ask:  are you sure you're not running the HPF (low cut) on the mics?
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Offline edtyre

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Re: 4 channels?
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2012, 07:00:12 PM »
I feel that a single pair of GOOD mics in the right location/configuration running thru a NICE preamp is really all you need.
That's how i feel too! I had enough of 4 channel. I don't get enough soundboard patches and the 4 mic mixes weren't
any better than one pair in the right spot.
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Offline lastubbe

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Re: 4 channels?
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2012, 07:14:41 PM »
I feel that a single pair of GOOD mics in the right location/configuration running thru a NICE preamp is really all you need.
That's how i feel too! I had enough of 4 channel. I don't get enough soundboard patches and the 4 mic mixes weren't
any better than one pair in the right spot.

Exactly why I haven't justified that step.  I suppose only reason I would do it would be to run another pair of mics, but in that case, the other pair I'd want would not be ideal in the situations that the other pair would.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: 4 channels?
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2012, 08:07:37 PM »
Other posts while typing.. before I launch into an essay, I'll just say I totally agree with Ed and lastubbe considering the way most 4 channel mic mixes are done around here- which is generally two seperate pairs of mics, each setup as an individual stereo pairs, mixed together.  That's not what I'm suggesting in any of the scenarios below...

[edit- and Brian is spot on in suggesting that direct and simple ways of improving your two channel recording technique are more appropiate than adding more mic channels!  What follows is more about why one might use 3 channels, and sort of assumes that you are already getting satisfactory results with two!]

I am intrigued by the 3 mic stereo option. How far apart would you place your mics? With the mixing would you somehow divide the center between the left and right?

The mixing is simple: center panned center, Left/Right panned hard-left and hard-right.  The main thing to adjust is the center level, and optionally EQ.

As for mic setup, a basic approach is simply adding a center omni without changing your typical L/R main pair setup.  That's a 'safe bet' way to try this as you can simply toss out the center if it adds nothing useful.  A center omni helps the low bass range, often compensating for a low end roll-off response of the directional main pair.  It can also help solidify the center of the playback image and provide a way of adjusting how much ambience you want in the mix.

The next step down the 3 channel path is to think about adjusting the main L/R pair with the addition of the center in mind.  That usually means adjusting the L/R pair to be angled or spaced wider (or both) in such a way that might compromise the main L/R pair by itself, but benefit the resulting mix with the center added.  When I started doing this I sort of worked my way farther towards a dedicated 3-channel setup, so if it didn't work out I still had something that wasn't over compromised in the L/R pair alone.  But the results were encouraging, which gave me the confidence to try more outlandish setups, some of which completely sacrifice stereo compatibility of the L/R pair alone for optimizing the 3-channel setup.

One of the 'totally safe', but really useful and conceptually simple optimized setups is three spaced omnis. Addition of a center omni allows you to space the L/R pair wider than you would otherwise without fear of getting a 'hole in the middle'.  In fact, the safest bet is to try this by spacing the L/R pair twice as wide as you normally would.  In that case you can always throw away one of the outside mic channels and substitute the center for it instead and you’ll end up with your original 'safe' L/R stereo omni spacing.  You can put all three mics in a line, or move the center one forward a bit like a classic Decca tree.  Works anywhere spaced omis are appropriate and is almost always better in my experience.  I've never once had it turn out worse.  I just did this for an outdoor festival last month and instead of the typical 3' two channel omni spacing I use there, I spaced the L/R pair 6'.  Super win. No down side other than running an extra channel and figuring out how to do the spacing.

Optimizing a setup with directional mics gets tricker, as the best results begin to require setups that don’t work as well with just the L/R pair alone.  You can go seat of the pants by simply going a good bit wider with the L/R pair.  If you are using three directional mics instead of a center omni, it may help to think of the Left-Center pair as one stereo set which happens to be immediately adjacent to the Center-Right pair, with the two linked-up in the middle.  Michael Williams has extended the Stereo Zoom technique based on this concept.  He calls the optimization of the overlap between each recording segment ‘critical linking’.  There are papers about it and an active web page configurator at his website to help determine good setups based on the recording angle you want.  I don’t know it off the top of my head, but I’ve posted links to his site in the microphone section here if interested.

To go whole hog, I’ve tried an Optimum Cardioid Triangle setup a few times which uses a center forward facing cardioid and Left/Right supercarioids facing directly to the sides.  Setting up that one gets odd looks and lots of questions from fellow tapers! Obviously something like that is only usable in 2-channel stereo if you mix the three resulting channels together.. but OCT is primarily designed as an optimal way for sending each channel to individual speakers for 3 channel stereo playback.  And so it goes down the rabbit hole..


To sum it up- If you want to try 3 mics, adding a center omni, or using three spaced omnis is a good safe start.  Generally from that point on, the greater the risk taken in compromising the two channel setup, the greater the potential reward of using three channels to best effect.  And I think that is really the ‘Achilles heel’ of most of the typical 4 channel mic setups which others have found lacking in the end.  With a few exceptions we can discuss, most of those setups are not really optimized to be mixed together.  If the resulting mix does work out well, it’s more or less something of a happy accident.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 08:19:50 PM by Gutbucket »
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