Topic: Would an on-stage vocal PA likely have a TS line-out jack?

[RemotelyLocated]

Next month I plan to travel out of town for a 3-channel recording consisting of my 2 mics and a line input coming from an on-stage PA into my audio interface before reaching my laptop.

It's a Big Band and they won't be amplified, but the vocalist will be. It's not critical I capture vox directly, but I'd like to try if it lets the vocal be recorded better. It occurs to me I might then have a problem mixing/blending the vocal, since my mics will also be picking it up ...

Is this a waste of time? As it is, I'll have to bring an extra XLR cable and TS various adapters (I'm assuming?) and figure out how to record multitrack on my Mac.

[runonce]

Whether or not you need the direct vox feed will depend on how well you capture the band...

If its a nice big clear sound from the band AUD recording - you might find the clean vocals compliment...and fit in.
But you may also capture the vocal in the AUD pair just fine - making the extra track not as useful.

But if you get a roomy sound - a clear vocal on top is going to sound a bit weird.

Since you are rolling multitrack - no real reason NOT to grab it though.

Are you going to have good spot for this job? Is this indoors or out?

[page]

Yeah, the vocal may not sit in the mix as well, but that can be worked on later. I agree; no reason not to grab it if you have the gear, extra channels, and time.

Most PA mixers I've patched out of have a mono or stereo out, and the majority of them are 1/4" jacks. Pack RCA adaptors and maybe XLR adaptors as well, but the majority I've seen have been 1/4" outs (either direct outs or sub-mix outs).

[RemotelyLocated]

The venue is a sizable ballroom, so "big roomy sound" will likely be there, even though my mics will be up close to the stage: https://www.google.com/search?q=casa+loma+st+louis&client=safari&rls=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=1HRyUrHnIojJsQS4xIDICA&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1405&bih=763

I don't know which image represents how it'll look when I show up, but you get the idea. Not a huge stage, but a big room.

I'm getting permission to do this and will be using my mics located stage lip. I doubt I could place them anywhere aft, as that would be on the dance floor. Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think there will be an "audience section" apart from simple dinner tables and chairs somewhere.

Maybe if I can use my one stand with a stereo bar, centered, the vocals will take care of themselves ... assuming the PA isn't somehow way off to the side of the stage. I'll try to get some info between now and then as to where the PA will be located.

Regarding multitrack, I've never done it before. I have Garageband and Logic Pro 9 available but zero experience with either apart from messing around. So I'm not necessarily "doing it anyway" -- I've done 2-ch, with a 2-ch recorder/editor (Amadeus Pro, which I think? might be able to multitrack record if I use an "aggregate audio device" in AudioMidi Setup on the Mac ... this shit rapidly makes my head spin and I don't want to fuck this up.

[runonce]

Looking at the room/stage...

Looks like the stage isn't that high - and you should get a nice mix of direct and ambient sound

You might ask for some advisement on what mic pattern to use here - maybe ORTF - something that's not going to pick up too much of one section/segment of the band.

But from that spot - I'd think you COULD get a tight enough capture of the band to merit grabbing the vocal track.

In fact - the PA probably will flank the band - and you may find the band sounds dynamite - but the vocals subdued.

I would grab it for sure...

[runonce]

You might throw out some details about your interface - looks like your on Mac.

I dont see any reason why you shouldn't use Audacity to master this session - you can do the post-production using whatever you like.

Im sure someone here or on team Mac can guide you in setup.

Since you have the interface - you should be able to show up at the gig with a template - and be ready to roll.

[runonce]

Some other potential gotcha's

Looking at the stage height and size - lets hope you dont end up with your mic's in the singers crotch - or just too close to their body.

Looks like you wont be able to run you stand very high.

Also an - beware of stage monitors - the vocalist will likely have one - and at that height, you might get too close to a wedge...

(these help make the case for getting the SBD vocal track, though)

Do you know if the singer uses a handheld mic? Or might they sing into a LD on a stand? (an old school big band approach)

[RemotelyLocated]

Thanks runonce.

The interface is a tc electronic Impact Twin. My experience with Audacity isn't much, either.

Looking at the stage height and size - lets hope you don't end up with your mic's in the singers crotch - or just too close to their body. Looks like you won't be able to run you stand very high.

Can you elaborate? My stand can go up 13' ...

And my understanding is that if I don't explicitly capture the vocal, anything I do get for that is in relation to where the PA and my mics are. If the PA is somewhere near the center it'll be better, maybe decent? In other words if I can run a line from the PA, what difference does it make if my mics are down low near "crotch level"? Your point about avoiding a vocal monitor is well taken nevertheless.

Do you know if the singer uses a handheld mic? Or might they sing into a LD on a stand? (an old school big band approach)

I know the singer and can ask, but why would it matter if he moves around, given any meaningful sound I get comes from either the PA's speakers or direct, anyway?

[Church-Audio]

I would not take a separate vocal feed. Like others have mentioned there is no way to get it to "sit" in the mix. It will sound unnatural.

[runonce]

I would not take a separate vocal feed. Like others have mentioned there is no way to get it to "sit" in the mix. It will sound unnatural.

Agree - but still, no reason to NOT record it...

[runonce]

Thanks runonce.

The interface is a tc electronic Impact Twin. My experience with Audacity isn't much, either.

Looking at the stage height and size - lets hope you don't end up with your mic's in the singers crotch - or just too close to their body. Looks like you won't be able to run you stand very high.

Can you elaborate? My stand can go up 13' ...

And my understanding is that if I don't explicitly capture the vocal, anything I do get for that is in relation to where the PA and my mics are. If the PA is somewhere near the center it'll be better, maybe decent? In other words if I can run a line from the PA, what difference does it make if my mics are down low near "crotch level"? Your point about avoiding a vocal monitor is well taken nevertheless.

Do you know if the singer uses a handheld mic? Or might they sing into a LD on a stand? (an old school big band approach)

I know the singer and can ask, but why would it matter if he moves around, given any meaningful sound I get comes from either the PA's speakers or direct, anyway?

You'll likely only be able run your mics up to about waist high without becoming too obtrusive to the singer and the audience...(just speculating here)

Depending on how tight the stage space is - if the vocalist is too close to the AUD mics, you might get a dead spot in the middle or, if they move around (like left to right) - you might hear that in the recording.

If the PA is flanking the stage - you aren't going to get a ton of vocal since you will probably be almost behind the speakers - or something near even.

[Church-Audio]

I would not take a separate vocal feed. Like others have mentioned there is no way to get it to "sit" in the mix. It will sound unnatural.

Agree - but still, no reason to NOT record it...

If you have the channels yeah for sure as long as you can get a solid stereo mic recording. You can always use it or lose it. That reminds me of what a record producer once said.. When the magic happens you better have the tape rolling. So yeah if you have the channels for sure you should take what ever you can get. One thing for sure you might be able to add reverb and make it sound like the vocals are coming in via mics.. Play around with delay of the mics and bring in back in time to the vocal. There are things that can be done to make it sound more natural. For sure. For sure the direct line out will be the thing you want to delay tracks back too. Because it will arrive in time before the sound hits the mics. If you bring the two back into alignment then you can actually improve the image.

[runonce]

Looking at this picture - it seems there is a small extension area to the stage.

And the PA is actually more in-line with the front row of the band and behind the vocalist (based on the location of the stand in this pic)

And I don't see a monitor.

It looks like you might be 10-12 feet from the band - so less danger of getting too much of one section/instrument - or damping from the vocalists body.

If you had 2 stands you could almost run split/spread omni's - and which would put your mics a little closer/more on axis to each PA speaker.

[Church-Audio]

Next month I plan to travel out of town for a 3-channel recording consisting of my 2 mics and a line input coming from an on-stage PA into my audio interface before reaching my laptop.

It's a Big Band and they won't be amplified, but the vocalist will be. It's not critical I capture vox directly, but I'd like to try if it lets the vocal be recorded better. It occurs to me I might then have a problem mixing/blending the vocal, since my mics will also be picking it up ...

Is this a waste of time? As it is, I'll have to bring an extra XLR cable and TS various adapters (I'm assuming?) and figure out how to record multitrack on my Mac.

There is no put your mics her and it will sound great formula for this kind of recording. the best thing to do is use your ears and find the place that sounds the most balanced to your ears that's where the mics need to be.

[RemotelyLocated]

Yeah I'm not expecting a recipe for success, but rather "best practices" of course.

Nothing quite like seeing a picture of the actual band on the stage in question! I don't know how you found that image but good sleuthing, run once, and thanks again. I might message them and try to find out of that represents a standard setup for them there. Regardless it doesn't seem likely the PA would/could be anywhere else but on the sides.

I see what you mean about the stage extension.

There remains a potential wildcard option, which would be if there are dinner tables near the stage and I could commandeer one and put one stand there.

[runonce]

What I notice in that picture is keyboards...and a few other mics.

Are you certain you'll only be getting vocals in the PA?

[Church-Audio]

What I notice in that picture is keyboards...and a few other mics.

Are you certain you'll only be getting vocals in the PA?

Good point looks like keyboards and some very basic section micing of the brass. I would agree there is more than vocals going into this PA.

[runonce]

On the left - looks like there is a second speaker stand, behind the front facing one - perhaps a little side-fill action?

[RemotelyLocated]

The band has occasionally had multitrack recordings done ... the picture could be from one of those. I was told only the vocals are amplified for the upcoming show but will verify. Obviously however, if I show up and there's a shitload of mics piped into speakers I'm sort of wasting my time.

Naturally the electronic keyboard is amplified. Not interested in taking a feed from that and assume it would be mixed more or less with the band "naturally" for the audience's benefit ... then again if I have a mic aimed over there to catch the PA I may get too much keyboard as well if it's got it's own PA or whatever.

[runonce]

Well if you show up and there is more sound reinforcement than you expected, you still have 2 channels for the Soundboard feed.

And - that feed should mix well with your more ambient AUD mics...not a waste of time at all! (almost ideal)

[RemotelyLocated]

Pretty sure over the phone the director told me nothing but vocals would be amplified.

But, yeah with a premixed stereo soundboard feed I could scrap the idea of a dedicated vocal track. In fact, with only 2 line inputs I'd have to. But what are the odds a soundboard feed (if present) would be mono, and presumably not desired to mix with my mics? Any clarity I gain would come at the cost of a more collapsed stereo image, yes?

We're entering a lot of hypothetical here for this event but I enjoy learning what I can, thanks!

[Church-Audio]

Pretty sure over the phone the director told me nothing but vocals would be amplified.

But, yeah with a premixed stereo soundboard feed I could scrap the idea of a dedicated vocal track. In fact, with only 2 line inputs I'd have to. But what are the odds a soundboard feed (if present) would be mono, and presumably not desired to mix with my mics? Any clarity I gain would come at the cost of a more collapsed stereo image, yes?

We're entering a lot of hypothetical here for this event but I enjoy learning what I can, thanks!

If you had 4 channels for recording I would say take a mono vocal feed they should really be panned dead center anyway. The fact that you only have a stereo track to deal with just use room mics.. Its nice to see someone asking all kinds of questions your way of thinking reminds me of my self when I started out in audio. PLEASE do not be afraid to ask questions. Its how we all learn. Stick to stereo try and get your self in a place where everything sounds pretty balanced to your ears and you should be ok.

[runonce]

Odds of a soundboard feed being mono?

Nearly 100%!

[runonce]

Pretty sure over the phone the director told me nothing but vocals would be amplified.

But, yeah with a premixed stereo soundboard feed I could scrap the idea of a dedicated vocal track. In fact, with only 2 line inputs I'd have to. But what are the odds a soundboard feed (if present) would be mono, and presumably not desired to mix with my mics? Any clarity I gain would come at the cost of a more collapsed stereo image, yes?

We're entering a lot of hypothetical here for this event but I enjoy learning what I can, thanks!

The idea would be you'd get a solid, clear/discrete sound from the soundboard - and a bigger, more forceful, ambient sound from your mics - and thats where the stereo-ness would come from also.

It's kind of rare that soundguys mix in stereo, particularly for this kind of gig.  It happens, but not often.