Topic: School band recording help

[page]

The only thing I am trying to figure out with what Page said is the angles. For most of my concert taping setup I have run the same patterns and setup.

Look at the Williams SRA curves and play around with that. You'd be surprised just how little spacing/angle is needed to achieve "stereo" when you're non-duplicated sound L/R is at an orchestral angle of around 150 degrees. Lee's taken care of the long form explanation on that as well as the little things you can do when mixing sources that are neither spots, nor contain the same information (e.g. mics along the front row but focused on different sections). As he notes, spot mic mixing is a different ball of wax but in this environment, it sounds like you'd only have to worry about your solo mic being an issue. The only thing I can add before the show on that topic is to keep in mind two things; what do you want to record (the stuff that is right next to the mic) and what do you not want to record (everything else). Now aim the mic in such a way that it's natural rear rejection works toward your advantage (sort of like a virtual audio gobo).

oh, and Lee's right, the two of us approach a problem in vastly different manners but try and shoot for the same goal. I prefer a semi-coincident base/main with flankers for the edges. He is more open to the flankers/spaced pair being the main sound with a center channel to help glue stuff together. Both will definitely accomplish the job, but they would sound different and it's a mixing preference at that point. There isn't a wrong technique per se in this, just some factors in setup requirements that would cause us to favor one over the other. Those are some of the things we've tried to point out (how they will be setup, what the room is like, any soloists who will come to the front of the stage, etc).

... They are a 44 piece setup.  ...

That said, it wouldn't surprise me if they used all of the space that's practical, so if you need to visit the auditorium ahead of time you can do a rough measurement of the width.

I've done a couple at the local high school's auditorium and the HVAC is so noisy much of the mic placement considerations are a waste of time. Be ready to accept weird conditions and EQ the snot out of it later if necessary. I know you want to do your best but he's gonna be thrilled with whatever you deliver.

Both are valid points. The first one is why I highly suggested seeing if you can see a soundcheck or practice session. At the very least go by and walk through the space with the director and take lots of notes.

The second I've been burned by before as well, and yes, he will likely be thrilled with whatever you send out as long as it's not a total loss. I've done big band engagements and people were tickled pink with a result that I thought was lack luster, and I suspect this sort of gig would be the same way. It's not an excuse to slack off or plan poorly, but don't panic over the mixing element. If nothing else, a sample track can allow us to offer advice later.

[alienbobz]

Just got an update on from my friend about the setup. It is a curl. As for checking the band before they play, the only option I have is to go to the school the day before and just listen. I don't think they will have much of a soundcheck if at all on the actual stage they are performing on. I am thinking of trying the AKGs with the split sub-cards and then the Marshall in the center. In the end it should be better than nothing. Basically all he ever gets to hear is crappy cell phone recordings from the parents so he rather here something better. Thanks everyone for the help and I look forward to the result.

[Tom McCreadie]

As for checking the band before they play, the only option I have is to go to the school the day before and just listen. I don't think they will have much of a soundcheck if at all on the actual stage they are performing on.

No opportunity to hoist a 2-mic AKG array on a stand at this rehearsal, as a quick 'n dirty reconnoitring test?  If not, at least walk around and try to settle on the ideal, future stand position for a pleasing direct/indirect balance (listen in "mono" with one ear finger-plugged) - and note, for your mic planning, the angle that the band edges then subtend to this position.

Keep it simple.  Why not confine it to a 2-mic stereo with the 414's , e.g. subcardioid at 25 cm. spacing, 115-120 deg. angling; omni / Jecklin Disk; or omni AB at 45-50 cm?  Any possible balance shortcomings in such arrays are imho more than compensated by the refreshing sense of integrity and seamlessness... that pea soup multimiking usually lacks.  :-)

Besides, there's the logistics: with the extra chores attending multimiking - gaffa taping more cables to floors etc. etc. - it's so easy to take your eyes off the ball and squander the scarce time that could have been better served by proper listening and tweaking.

[alienbobz]

I would have to check with my friend about taping the band during the rehearsal. Granted the room sound will be different (classroom vs auditorium), so I don't know how much I will gain from that.

[page]

I would have to check with my friend about taping the band during the rehearsal. Granted the room sound will be different (classroom vs auditorium), so I don't know how much I will gain from that.

totally worth it if you can swing it. If nothing else it's practice in understanding the pros/cons of each setup.

[alienbobz]

Good point. I will talk to him about it.

[bombdiggity]

I am trying out Audacity though I do have Adobe Audition 2.0 so I should be able to do the panning. Not sure which program is better.

Audition!  If you have that you don't need Audacity, which IMO is weaker in terms of it's processing algorithms (and results). 

You can mix any number of channels fairly easily in Audition by putting them into a multitrack session.  You get the faders, panning, individual channel eq's, mixing, etc. with controls similar to the layout of a mixing board.  You can adjust each channel and build your mix, then once the two-channel mixdown is done can also apply final adjustments to that.  Audition also lets you preview any stage real time.  I doubt Audacity has any of that (though could be wrong). 

[alienbobz]

I am trying out Audacity though I do have Adobe Audition 2.0 so I should be able to do the panning. Not sure which program is better.

Audition!  If you have that you don't need Audacity, which IMO is weaker in terms of it's processing algorithms (and results). 

You can mix any number of channels fairly easily in Audition by putting them into a multitrack session.  You get the faders, panning, individual channel eq's, mixing, etc. with controls similar to the layout of a mixing board.  You can adjust each channel and build your mix, then once the two-channel mixdown is done can also apply final adjustments to that.  Audition also lets you preview any stage real time.  I doubt Audacity has any of that (though could be wrong).

I will try out Audition then. Audition was my main program, I just felt like trying Audacity for my last recording. Granted all I did in that one was raise the levels.

[page]

Tom has some solid points as well, especially that there is a trade off; you can do a 2ch that has fantastic imaging, or gain flexibility and other benefits with the splits. I personally wouldn't use quite that large of an angle in a simple pair (even as subcards), but it's a taste preference.

Actually, this thread overall has been rather good.

[alienbobz]

Yeah this thread has been a learning experience. I am mostly trying the split sub cards as I never have had that option available to me. Just wish I had something better for the third mic. Should be a fun experiment either way.

[page]

Yeah this thread has been a learning experience. I am mostly trying the split sub cards as I never have had that option available to me. Just wish I had something better for the third mic. Should be a fun experiment either way.

Just keep in mind where people (and in turn, their instruments) are pointed when you setup, since they are evidently using a curl formation, you may end up with a tighter split than originally imagined.

[alienbobz]

Yeah this thread has been a learning experience. I am mostly trying the split sub cards as I never have had that option available to me. Just wish I had something better for the third mic. Should be a fun experiment either way.

Just keep in mind where people (and in turn, their instruments) are pointed when you setup, since they are evidently using a curl formation, you may end up with a tighter split than originally imagined.

Good point, I will keep that in mind.

[Gutbucket]

I wouldn't worry too much about the lower quality of the center cardioid.  Another benefit of the 3-main mic technique IMO is that it somewhat reduces the requirement for equivalent top quality mics all around to get the equivalent quality you would from only using two.  The AKGs will 'cover' somewhat for what might otherwise be a more noticeable quality difference in the center cardioid if the cardioid pair were used alone, disregarding the other more obvious differences due to the different configurations.

Related aside on that topic-
For that very reason I've decided to use some new-to-me miniature DPA supercardioids in a mobile 4-channel setup I'll be rigging up this weekend for an outdoor festival next week.  Although the application is different, the setup is actually quite similar to what I outlined here- 2meter A-B spaced omnis with center forward and rear facing directional mics.  I've run that same setup using quality full-body Microtech Gefell cards and supercards as the center front/rear facing mics and well as several different AT miniature cardioids in the past.  The difference between the miniature ATs and the Gefells is blatantly obvious when listening to those channels alone.  It is not anywhere near as significant once combined with the omnis.  I can hear the difference, but determined that the practical tradeoff for a very compact rig with light-weight portability and better weather-resilience that needn't rely on larger phantom powered mics and supporting equipment makes that trade-off more than worthwhile, especially since that will allow me to more easily get the rig to optimal locations I might not otherwise be able to accomplish with larger/heavier gear..  And mic location is the most important variable to my way of thinking.  In a few tests I prefer the sound of the miniature DPAs for this application to both models of the ATs I used for this previously, so I expect there will be even less trade-off in quality verses practicality.

[alienbobz]

Well I am leaning more towards the Marshall over the Behringer for this recording. Granted I haven't used my Marshalls in years and I have no clue how they are gonna sound. I am thinking of trying one or two of them before this show at a concert just to hear the result. On the note of getting something for a regular 4 mic setup, I still have to figure that out. Not sure what route to go this type but it will be awhile before I can afford to run 4 mics on a regular basis.

[Gutbucket]

Using the sub-cardioid mode on the AKGs will increase their direct sound to reverberant sound pickup compared to running them as omnis.  That might be a good thing if the room sound is less than ideal or if their location is slightly farther away than would be ideal for omnis.   

It will make that optional 4th channel room facing cardioid potentially more valuable at mix-down for optimizing the overall reverberant balance since the 3-mic main array will be drier.  But don’t worry too much about setting up that extra 4th mic if it’s a hassle or distraction for you at the recording gig.  Set it up last if you have the time and everything else is setup to your satisfaction. Then if you have the time you might as well do so, if only to play around with in mixing later on for your own enlightenment even if not using it at all on the recording for the band teacher.  It could be placed atop the center stand with the forward facing center mic, pointing the opposite direction up and back into the room directly away from the band, clamped lower on the same stand facing directly at the audience (even down at stage level), clamped under the stage-lip, or simply placed on stage facing out into the audience.  The key is to face it away from the band to minimize its direct sound pickup and maximize it’s reverberant room sound pickup.  One of the Behringers should work fine for that.