Topic: School band recording help

[Gutbucket]

For optimal imaging purposes (as opposed to trying to exclude a source of direct noise) if using the AKGs in sub-card mode in combination with a center cardioid, you will want to point them wider than you probably think you should, certainly much wider than you would want to if using them as a stereo pair of subcards alone without the center mic.  If you decide to use a somewhat narrower spacing on the AKGs because the band is arrayed in an arc, which I don’t really think maters that much if thinking in terms of the overall array using less directional mics like omnis or sub-cards, I’d point them directly left and right regardless of their relationship to the musicians on stage (again that’s with optimal imaging in mind rather than room noise avoidance). 

This starts getting into setup-theory stuff, so feel free to ignore this if it’s not interesting to you, but here’s why-

That 180 degree opposing mic angle with the sub-cards will be a much wider angle than what the Stereo Zoom 2-channel charts suggests but consistent with the William’s charts for 3-mic front segment arrays, as well as other 3-mic setups such as the Optimum Cardioid Triangle (OCT) setups.  If you want to explore the Williams 3 channel setups in detail you can click through various configurations and save or print specific setups with angles and dimensions from his website, but you needn’t get to worried about being that specific for this I think.  He doesn’t have three mic arrays listed specifically, but they are the same as his five mic arrays if you ignore the two in back.  Those charts all assume three identical polar patern mics, but again, the basic concept still holds if you simply browse the 5-channel sub-cardioid setups and ignore the rear facing pair.  As the spacing gets narrower, sometimes the left and right mics need to be angled so much as to be facing somewhat backwards!

The Image Assistant (description here; Java applet here) lets you explore the imaging aspects of 3-mic arrays in detail, even using different polar for each mic.  The data in the resulting graphs can be difficult to interpret without a good understanding of what’s going on, but it’s a great resource if you care to go deep in exploring the theory stuff.

If pointing the sub-cards 180 degrees apart directly to either side sounds radical, consider that OCT (which is a three mic setup using a center cardioid) specifies spaced supercardioids pointing directly to the sides!

OK, now forget all that and keep it simple!

[NorseHorse]

Glad to hear you are trying to record a wind ensemble.  Great scene with cool music and fun people.  You'll be able to get great results with your 414s and the R4.  Do not use three mics (LCR) across the front of an ensemble.  This is a wind band fetish rife with phase problems and poor imaging.  Get two omnis or cardioids (or something in between) and get them in a good position.  Here's some video inspiration...

HIGH SCHOOL BAND - Robert Sheldon's Sound Innovation Fanfare: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qglzr6-OeNc

COLLEGIATE BAND - Frank Ticheli's Apollo Unleashed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzREvXfrkM0

Put on headphones and listen for clarity, blend, imaging, and of course, balance.  Good luck!

[bombdiggity]

Glad to hear you are trying to record a wind ensemble.  Great scene with cool music and fun people.  You'll be able to get great results with your 414s and the R4.  Do not use three mics (LCR) across the front of an ensemble.  This is a wind band fetish rife with phase problems and poor imaging.  Get two omnis or cardioids (or something in between) and get them in a good position.  Here's some video inspiration...

HIGH SCHOOL BAND - Robert Sheldon's Sound Innovation Fanfare: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qglzr6-OeNc

COLLEGIATE BAND - Frank Ticheli's Apollo Unleashed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzREvXfrkM0

Put on headphones and listen for clarity, blend, imaging, and of course, balance.  Good luck!

So that first one was done with just what looks like the center pair flown high? 

The second appears to have quite a few more mics involved...  or did you ultimately only use the two in the center (it seems like more based on the depth)? 

Even via YT on the crappy computer speakers I have at hand at the moment these sound very full and nice.

[alienbobz]

Glad to hear you are trying to record a wind ensemble.  Great scene with cool music and fun people.  You'll be able to get great results with your 414s and the R4.  Do not use three mics (LCR) across the front of an ensemble.  This is a wind band fetish rife with phase problems and poor imaging.  Get two omnis or cardioids (or something in between) and get them in a good position.  Here's some video inspiration...

HIGH SCHOOL BAND - Robert Sheldon's Sound Innovation Fanfare: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qglzr6-OeNc

COLLEGIATE BAND - Frank Ticheli's Apollo Unleashed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzREvXfrkM0

Put on headphones and listen for clarity, blend, imaging, and of course, balance.  Good luck!

After looking at both of those videos, it looks like the sound is coming more from the room/stage. I don't know how big the high school auditorium and I doubt I can have access before. Plus the setup that is in the video is completely different from what I thought everyone was explaining.

[Gutbucket]

Do not use three mics (LCR) across the front of an ensemble.  This is a wind band fetish rife with phase problems and poor imaging.

Works for me [shrug].  Have you tried it yourself and had problems?  Any possibility of posting samples of those problematic recordings.  It would be very helpful to hear them.

[bombdiggity]

Glad to hear you are trying to record a wind ensemble.  Great scene with cool music and fun people.  You'll be able to get great results with your 414s and the R4.  Do not use three mics (LCR) across the front of an ensemble.  This is a wind band fetish rife with phase problems and poor imaging.  Get two omnis or cardioids (or something in between) and get them in a good position.  Here's some video inspiration...

HIGH SCHOOL BAND - Robert Sheldon's Sound Innovation Fanfare: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qglzr6-OeNc

COLLEGIATE BAND - Frank Ticheli's Apollo Unleashed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzREvXfrkM0

Put on headphones and listen for clarity, blend, imaging, and of course, balance.  Good luck!

After looking at both of those videos, it looks like the sound is coming more from the room/stage. I don't know how big the high school auditorium and I doubt I can have access before. Plus the setup that is in the video is completely different from what I thought everyone was explaining.

I think you sort of have examples of both setups in the videos... 

The pair of mics on a really high stand in the center (a la the first video) is a traditional tried and true approach.  Some commenters here have used something like that if I'm not mistaken (and that was an early suggestion here).  The second video appears to show that sort of center stand plus mics on the flanks at stage front.  That may be moving closer to the three mic approach discussed here but seems it is more a center stereo pair with fills (depending in what was actually used in the mix).  I suspect Norsehorse was advocating above for starting with a stereo pair rather than with three discrete channels. 

Regarding the room/stage thing that is part of what makes recording an art (open to interpretation and varying opinions).  I view the room and stage as opposite poles (though they seem paired as if synonyms in your observation). 

Direct sound comes from the stage (or the players on it to be specific).  Reverberant sound is what is in the room after that direct sound bounces around.  Some like a roomier sound.  Some like a direct sound.  In practice we always wind up with a blend (especially with a huge ensemble since none of us can spot mic every individual piece of something like that - and even spot mics will have bleed from the other instruments and from the room).  A stereo pair focused on optimizing the direct sound may be more forgiving and better suited to a room that is not very acoustically sound than an approach that uses less focused mics to pick up more of an omni room sound. 

Having the components to make the most appealing blend is the key to multisource recording.  Getting the best blend on the fly is the key to a stereo pair ambient recording. 

Of course every room is different, every band is different, and every ear is different, so there is no fixed set of rules that says A-B-C is always the "best".  Best is not really a useful construct in these discussions. 

There are thousands of approaches (within the limits of the gear available to applied to the task) and lots of opinions.  In the end if one gets something most people enjoy listening to then it's a task well done.  There are a lot of useful applications of theory in this thread (as well as useful theory).  In the end every outing is a crap shoot but experience and tools allow us to get better and better at it.  Ultimately I wouldn't overthink it.  Do as much as you can to get practice, background, soundchecks, etc. relevant to the specific task, then do what you're comfortable with.  Any reasonable recording can be refined in post.  Two solid channels is enough (though more can be nice) and as someone else observed probably far better documentation than has been made of this group in that setting. 

Since you don't know the room it's hard to know how to play it but when you do get there you have ideas and approaches that should let you determine pretty quickly what you would be comfortable with.  I tend to favor bringing whatever one has to a new setting so you don't rule out something you find you needed.  With 4 channels you have a fairly finite range of options (though 2 channels more than some have). 

[alienbobz]

Yeah I saw the mic setup in the second video and that seems more like everyone was talking about. My guess though is that the band will be set up closer to what was in the first video. If that is the case and I wanted to split, how would I do that? I might need to get some different stands. I have my bogen stand which goes up to 15' and several on-stage stands that go up to 4'.

[alienbobz]

Another idea. If I got this 24" bar with 4 knobs. I could put the AKGs on the ends and then put my Marshall towards the center. Would that work?

[bombdiggity]

Yeah I saw the mic setup in the second video and that seems more like everyone was talking about. My guess though is that the band will be set up closer to what was in the first video. If that is the case and I wanted to split, how would I do that? I might need to get some different stands. I have my bogen stand which goes up to 15' and several on-stage stands that go up to 4'.

Well there are a variety of options discussed in this thread, to wit:

Stereo pair

Stereo pair with side fills

Three channel (left-center-right)

(not sure if mentioned here but:) four channel (left, center-front/center-rear, right) 

{EDIT} perhaps more if four mics on a single bar... 

Any of those should work. 

The stands depend to a great degree on the type of mic and the strategy in placement. 

In general having the mics equidistant from the center of the source (or from the sources if directional mics are applied to PA's) is desirable.  So in a three channel set up I don't think you'd want to fly one at 15' and the other two at 4' unless there is some compensation in distance for the lower two.  The conductor usually poses an issue for the center so getting above that obstruction (and getting a good angle of view on the whole ensemble) may be why the high center stand is in vogue in this application.  I don't think omnis need to be flown as high as cards up close but I don't think one would want them at a different distance to the source than other mics either? 

[page]

HIGH SCHOOL BAND - Robert Sheldon's Sound Innovation Fanfare: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qglzr6-OeNc

Plus the setup that is in the video is completely different from what I thought everyone was explaining.

For clarification; This is closer to what I was talking about (single stand, and what looks like a stereo pair); put a stand near the center there, fairly close to the conductor's back and run a stereo pair as subcards. That's a touch higher than I would have thought to go, but the theory is the same. The second one is closer to what Lee's doing.

[Gutbucket]

No sound on this computer so I've seen the vids but not heard them.

{EDIT} perhaps more if four mics on a single bar... 

All that sound right.. except I wouldn’t suggest putting all four mics on the same bar with the intent of mixing them.

For the three channel main mic thing, I’d want the side stands higher, like 8’ up or more rather than 4’.  And yes it would probably be best to have all three at the same height, although it’s more important that they are all approximately the same distance, which could be accommodated for by moving the center forward and the sides back.

Your 24” bar is not enough spacing for a 3 mic setup on one bar using omnis or sub-cards.  That width would be enough if using 3 supercardioids, as long as you could also get the center mic about a foot in front of the other two (like a small directional decca tree), and that is similar to an arrangement I use for on-stage recording of jazz combos with the 3-mic technique- left and right supercards pointed about 45 degrees away from center.  See the William charts for multi-mic setups using supercards for specifics on that if interested, but it's not what I would do for this.

If you are limited to having to use the two short stands and 24” bar, I’d probably forgo the 3 main mic suggestion (which I still think is a valid choice and am more than willing to defend) and do one of these things:

1) Revert to two channel with the AKGs in cardioid or subcardioid mode on the tall central stand, angled and spaced based on the Stereo Zoom two channel charts.   You could also run your extra pair of cardioids on the same stand as well, but not for making a 4 mic mix which is likely to have phase problems form the mics not being far enough apart or angled far enough away from each other, but rather as an interesting source for comparison which would be educational.

2) Instead of putting the extra cardioid pair on the same stand, I’d probably place them at the extreme edges of the stage on the short stands facing directly out into the audience as room mics which can be mixed with the main pair.  That’s a standard ‘room and audience mic’ing setup’ which works well, gives a nicely diffuse ambience and crowd reaction and will add a sense of width and depth the stereo pair alone may lack, especially if using the cardioid mode for the main mics.

[Gutbucket]

 

Direct sound comes from the stage (or the players on it to be specific).  Reverberant sound is what is in the room after that direct sound bounces around. [snip] In practice we always wind up with a blend [snip]. A stereo pair focused on optimizing the direct sound may be more forgiving and better suited to a room that is not very acoustically sound than an approach that uses less focused mics to pick up more of an omni room sound. 

More on that-
As long as there is a line of sight from source to microphone, the direct/reverberant balance is primarily determined by the size of the room and how close the mics are from the source, and secondarily by the polar pattern of the mics.  A more directional pattern can alter the recorded balance somewhat, but only by a limited amount.  The most directional pattern, a supercardioid, can be placed something like twice as far away as an omni for the same recorded direct/reverberant ratio, a cardioid about 1.5 times farther away.. BUT that is based on the omni being placed at the 'critical distance' from the source, where the direct and reverberant sound levels at that position in the room are equal (direct/reverberant ratio = 0).  That distance changes depending on the room, but even in huge halls it is quite close, and usually far closer than most people realize.  For Boston Symphony Hall it is about 7meters or ~20’ and nearly all of the audience is seated well into the reverberant field. For much smaller rooms the critical distance is usually only a few meters at most.  That means you can’t expect a supercardioid placed ½ back in the room to have the same direct/reverberant pickup as an omni ¼ of the way back even though it is twice as far away since they are both well back into the reverberant field and much farther away from the source than the critical distance.  The supercard will sound different than the omni in that case, but for reasons other than direct/reverberant pickup.

Individual sources (musicians with instruments) illuminating a room with sound behave very differently from PA amplified stack sources, partly because PA’s are designed to be highly directional above the bass range and project deeply into the room.  Critical distance can be very different with PAs.

[NorseHorse]

HIGH SCHOOL BAND - Robert Sheldon's Sound Innovation Fanfare: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qglzr6-OeNc

Plus the setup that is in the video is completely different from what I thought everyone was explaining.

For clarification; This is closer to what I was talking about (single stand, and what looks like a stereo pair); put a stand near the center there, fairly close to the conductor's back and run a stereo pair as subcards. That's a touch higher than I would have thought to go, but the theory is the same. The second one is closer to what Lee's doing.

To rephrase:

Your main sound must come from a pair of mics.

Do not record with three mics as discussed.  This is known as LCR, short for Left-Center-Right.

The first video I posted is a stereo pair only.  The second video is a stereo pair, plus outriggers.  The outriggers are mixed at a much lower level and are non-essential.  They can be used to add spaciousness.  Your 24" bar is sufficient.  Put your mics up and find a good spot for the stand.

Here is more inspiration from a high school band.  Two mics only:  John Mackey's ZERXES http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0sCqHrXbZw  Notice how you can hear exactly where each instrument comes from.  Good luck!

[Gutbucket]

To rephrase:

Your main sound must come from a pair of mics.

Do not record with three mics as discussed.  This is known as LCR, short for Left-Center-Right.

That's a strong statement, repeated bolded. 
It would be far more helpful to explain why rather than simply making authoritative statements.

Differences of opinion discussed and explained here are more useful than unsupported dogmatic statments.

[Tom McCreadie]

......where the direct and reverberant sound levels at that position in the room are equal (direct/reverberant ratio = 0).

caution from typo police; it's illegal to park your mics in negative hyperspace